South Africa Hails 'Decisive Victory' For International Law At UN Court

354 views
Skip to first unread message

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 26, 2024, 12:25:03 PMJan 26
to usaafricadialogue

Victor Okafor

unread,
Jan 26, 2024, 3:24:22 PMJan 26
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Mighty congratulations to South Africa and its political class, which demonstrably, have not forgotten their history of a prolonged struggle against institutionalized racism that was based on the doctrine of White Supremacy, which in its case was known as Apartheid. Here in the USA, a similar social system of institutionalized racism was known as Jim Crow. South Africa's direct, non-violent action of taking Israel to the World Court over the Palestinian tragedy demonstrates what a people, who are conscious of their history, can do to help others similarly in need. This is a case study of applied history. As the Great Dr. Martin Luther King, jr, put it, "Injustice anywhere, is a threat to justice everywhere." That history apparently gave the South African political elite an acute sensitivity to racial injustice, racial apartheid.

If I may add, there used to be a time when South Africa's northern big brother, Nigeria, also used to stand tall in the international arena, particularly during the heyday of the liberation struggles in Southern Africa, including its epicenters of then apartheid South Africa, Zimbabwe, Namidia, Angola, and Mozambique. As part of a compulsory exposure to a two-sequence course on decolonized African history, our university kids--across the board--should be made aware of that history of a time period in Nigeria's political evolution when it was a pride to be called a Nigerian on the international stage.

On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 12:25 PM Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMgN3quUUtYD0cO9%3DQgq%3DkgTHSjhCkXJDM_oPSF8CJv2g%40mail.gmail.com.


--
Sincerely,

Victor O. Okafor, Ph.D.
Professor and Head
Department of Africology and African American Studies
Eastern Michigan University
Food for Thought: 
"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass


Harrow, Kenneth

unread,
Jan 26, 2024, 5:31:39 PMJan 26
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Victor is right about this need for justice, and african states to stand up. But again, blinker just returning from angola where a major american deal is concluded…. The money runs the show there. Where does it now? Palestine, where it is blood.
Ken

Kenneth Harrow
Emeritus Professor of English, Michigan State University
Harrow@msu/edu

From: 'Victor Okafor' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2024 2:56:51 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - South Africa Hails 'Decisive Victory' For International Law At UN Court
 

cornelius...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 28, 2024, 6:11:02 AMJan 28
to USA Africa Dialogue Series
Makes for depressing reading : Chris Hedges: It May be Genocide, But it Won't Be Stopped

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 28, 2024, 10:48:22 AMJan 28
to usaafricadialogue
I did not expect much from the ICJ

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/cb9f733f-c94c-4513-965e-b4e674ef62f8n%40googlegroups.com.

cornelius...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 28, 2024, 3:53:59 PMJan 28
to USA Africa Dialogue Series

Dear Oluwatoyin,


Given that the ICJ is a competent international body with competent judges in whom we are supposed to repose some trust that they are more than capable of fulfilling their mission which is to dispense justice, could you please tell us why you “did not expect much from the ICJ”?


Here is Jeffrey Sachs’ reaction to the ICJ judgement 


Ray McGovern & Larry C. Johnson Interview: ICJ Ruling And Israel's LAST GASP


George Galloway 


Other reactions to the ICJ ruling on genocide in Gaza


The whole world waited with various degrees of anxiety, in some spheres, perhaps, an increase in the blood pressure among some members of the war cabinet due to some doubts and some fears, both positive and negative, since some of those who wash their hands in the morning to dedicate all their works to Hashem, begin the day with the prayer Rayshis chochma yir-as Adonai ((The beginning of wisdom is the fear of Hashem ) - at least they’re supposed to know that, whilst others waited for the ICJ judgement with other kinds of expectations, with hope, even confidence that the ICJ would decree an international warrant for the arrest of Netanyahu and declare a ceasefire that would be legally binding, with immediate effect.


 I think that the Mullahs in Iran are the most realistic; they know that even if Mister Netanyahu believes that he is democratically elected and blessed with divine protection, UncleJoe’s iron dome etc, he would never set foot in any territory that belongs to the Islamic Republic, speak less of him intending make a state visit and get some red carpet treatment when he knows full well that on his arrival at the Imam Khomeini International Airport, he would be taken into custody directly - as a hostage - and we will all be reading about the international crisis that he would have thereby created, in Tehran Times…

 

So far it looks like Hezbollah have been biding their time and the war is all set to expand along the axis of the Israel-Lebanon border. A good rule of thumb: Trust in the Lord but don’t misunderestimate Mister Hitler…


https://www.memri.org/

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 28, 2024, 4:52:41 PMJan 28
to usaafricadialogue
The ICJ is a Western created institution, on Western land. 

The whole universe knows that Israel's claim to self defense is a most expansive one covering the decimation of Palestinian society as a perpetual deterrent.

The idea of a peace of equals between Israel and the Palestinians not on the table for Israel and her allies, specifically the US, UK and Germany


The UN has done its best but been hobbled by the US, the most powerful Western nation.

Did you expect the ICJ to do the reasonable thing to stop the ongoing slaughter?

Why would they?

We need a restructuring of these international institutions.

What has been achieved by SA is a symbolic victory, bringing to the open what has long been the case. 

That Israel is a largely sick country, suffering from  Holocaust Induced Trauma, HIT, in which descendants of the dehumanized become dehumanizers.

Thanks

Toyin








To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/dba0bfd4-3e73-41b8-a589-4e17d85aa48fn%40googlegroups.com.

Harrow, Kenneth

unread,
Jan 28, 2024, 6:01:28 PMJan 28
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Toyin, what makes the icj western? Its location isn’t a real factor. Wasn’t the composition of the court equitable? I don’t know, just asking.
Ken

Kenneth Harrow
Emeritus Professor of English, Michigan State University
Harrow@msu/edu

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2024 4:51:14 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Harrow, Kenneth

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 4:58:16 AMJan 29
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Here is a piece of the south african case at the international court: “

As long as those who make rules enforce them against others while believing that they and their allies are above those rules, the international governance system is in trouble,” Thuli Madonsela, one of South Africa’s leading legal minds and an architect of its post-apartheid Constitution, told me. “We say these rules are the rules when Russia invades Ukraine or when the Rohingya are being massacred by Myanmar, but if it’s now Israel butchering Palestinians, depriving them of food, displacing them en masse, then the rules don’t apply and whoever tries to apply the rules is antisemitic? It is really putting those rules in jeopardy.”



ironic, that s africa has welcomed putin, despite this noble rhetoric from madonsela.
She is right in all instances. 
Ken

Kenneth Harrow
Emeritus Professor of English, Michigan State University
Harrow@msu/edu

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2024 5:23:06 PM

Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM, CDOA

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 4:58:34 AMJan 29
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Oluwatoyin,

Your perspective on Israel here as usual advertently or inadvertently failed to take into consideration the events that took place immediately after the creation of the state of Israel.

That those events shaped situations thereafter and currently cannot be ignored by serious unbiased commentators.

-CAO.
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMwmHP9JAJrKzqCu4iYf2s-gX1Yp4s75Hm5ETtTLUbv9w%40mail.gmail.com.


--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 4:58:34 AMJan 29
to usaafricadialogue
Its s creation of Western political initiative.

Who is the head of the court?

A US citizen and one who has been part of US govt.

What has been the percentage of citizens of various countries heading the court?

A sincere question, sunce I don't know.

Where do the funds of the court largely come from?

Another sincere question.

The general orientation provided by the global dominance of Western leadership is also a factor.

Would the ICJ want to embarrass its primary owners, yes, owners, by going radically against them?

Hence, they have simply repeated the pius nonsense coming from the US, only added some requirements to be delivered in one month, by which time Israel would have continued in its daily bombardment and dehumanization of Palestinians, making further progress in doing to them what was done to Jews by the Romans when they dispersed them after destroying the temple, if I have the history right.

The West is largely in charge of the global institutions they created and sited in their own countries, ICJ, World Court, World Bank, UN etc.

The location of these institutions carries great symbolic, economic and leverage value. Its not inconsequential, as you claim.

Their location represents their significance as indices of a world order created by the West and largely in the interests of the West.

Moving forward, these world bodies should be situated on different continents, instead of the current concentration in Europe and the US.

All countries should also have equal votes as to who leads them.

Until the world wrests control of these bodies from the US and Europe, such bodies  with potential power to deliver justice equitably will not deliver such justice.

We are faced with an emergency of historic proportions, and the best the court has been able to do is to tell the genocidists "We are not saying you should stop what you are doing. All we are saying is that you should not do what you are said to be doing and present evidence that you are complying".

Looks like nonsense to me.

The court is being saluted for giving credence to the presentations by SA of how Israel is prosecuting the war.

So?

Am I to salute you for agreeing thr sun is shining when its broad daylight?

Israel has got the message,the same message the US has been pushing.

"We are okay with your doing whatever you want to do to gain total advantage in Gaza, including destroying the place and killing as many people as possible to break them  in the name of defeating Hamas but do it before people's outcries make us look too bad".

The real agents of historic lessons here are Hamas and the Palestinians.

In spite of the epic bombardment, Hamas are still holding the hostages and their leadership  are neither surrendering nor trying to flee Gaza.

How are they doing it?

Anyone who has followed the history of this conflict will not be surprised by the totalistic savagery of the Israeli response.

I wonder how well Hamas calculated the pros and cons of Oct 7 and if they would do it again if they could go back in time.

As it is, just as the Nazis conceived and carried out what they called The Fimal Solution to the Jewish Problem, Israel is carrying out what they hope is The Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem, only things are not going as predictably for Israel as they did for the Nazis.

The Jews were completely helpless as entire populations were dehumanized and almost completely destroyed.

But the Palestinians are not equally helpless, as represented by Hamas, who are able to respond savagely to Israeli savagery, though at a very much smaller scale,  even though Hamas has only the smallest fraction of Israeli capability, and even though the US and other Western countries are ceaselessly supplying the most destructive weapons to Israel to facilitate the decimation of the Palestinians in defending the colonialist Israeli vision, Hamas has got no supplies of anti-aircraft weapons, of jamming mechanisms to overwhelm Israel's iron dome anti -rocket network, of rockets capable of devastating Israeli cities, laying waste to Tel Aviv and other Israeli urban centres as Israel is doing to Northern and Southern Gaza, but the desperate resilience of the average Palestinians and the suicidal tenacity of Hamas, demonstrate what the US and Israel's European allies are compelled to reirerate, Israel's lasting security can only be through an equitably founded and justly structured Palestinian state.

The mistake they are making is in sustaining the claim that eliminating Hamas is the route to Israeli security.

Since Israel was able to make the leaders of its terrorist co-founders its prime ministers, such as Menachem Begin of Irgun,  and others, Israel and its allies need to recognize that Hamas has earned its own place as a nation founder they cant discount.

A calculus of savagery in which all partners in the inequitably distributed inhumanity, Israel being the greater monster, must be given their due.

The Holocaust Traumatized Israelis and the Israeli Traumatized Palestinians.

Thanks 

Toyin 











To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB575588F7F877BAD27144D149DA7F2%40BL1PR12MB5755.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

cornelius...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 4:58:45 AMJan 29
to USA Africa Dialogue Series

Oluwatoyin,


On second thoughts, Re -” The ICJ is a Western created institution, on Western land.”


BTW, I sometimes wonder about the kind of private dialogues Biden has with his former boss, President Barack Hussein Obama,  given what we know, that there was and probably still is no love lost between Brother Obama and Netanyahu, although, to his credit, it was President Barack Obama who signed the bill granting an additional $225 million in funding for Israel's Iron Dome missile defence system. 


What has BIden ever said about The Genocide of the Native Americans of North America?


Along with those who think that Jesus is or was White, Biden probably also believes that Israel is a part of the Holy Western Land that the Almighty bequeathed to his Chosen, Native American people. ( Ali, my friend from Iraq used to tell me that if he loves them so much, George Bush Jnr should go and give the Jews half of Texas and see how the Texans would react to that. You airlift  half of Netanyahu's people from Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Haifa, all the way to Texas  and  they start building a few more  synagogues there, it’s almost certain that the Texans would start their own Intifada and soon enough be accused of antiSemitism and xenophobia, by the Anti-Defamation League


Ditto if you airlifted half of the American Jews to settle down in the West Bank,  it would be more palaver. 


It’s even palaver with  Mexicans crossing the border into the US


James  Taylor: Mexico

cornelius...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 4:58:45 AMJan 29
to USA Africa Dialogue Series

Dear Oluwatoyin,


Let's start with the little bit of racism/ tribalism in your first sentence: “ The ICJ is a Western created institution, on Western land.”


Could you say ditto about the not-so-united United Nations ( and many of its agencies, the usual hullabaloo about funding - Uncle Sam the Mr Money Bags, main financier who wants to be therefore calling the shots, bullying everybody he can, threatening to leave etc) that “The United Nations  is a Western created institution, on Western land.”?


I was thinking about this the other day when Professor Harrow wrote, “ we need a new edward said here, one who demands respect and even honor—recognition of the value and humanity of the other.”


Indeed,we need a new Edward Said here. 


Do you remember the pandemonium that erupted when Palestine was given observer status and even admitted to membership of UNESCO, that the US stopped Unesco funding after Palestine was granted membership ? Is it any wonder that the US-backed Israeli bombardment of the Gaza Universities and other institutions of higher learning, to date / since the 7th of October) up to 280 government schools and 65 UNRWA-run schools have been destroyed or damaged


Kudos: Clare Daly 


Even some savvy Israeli military man says this is what's most urgently needed: Ceasefire!



On Sunday 28 January 2024 at 22:52:41 UTC+1 Oluwatoyin Adepoju wrote:

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 6:28:27 AMJan 29
to usaafricadialogue
Chidi,

Are you aware that Jewish terrorist groups have been chasing Palestinians from their land before and after 1948?

And that these terrorist groups have been integrated into the Israeli army even as their leaders became Prime Ministers of Israel?

The story of Israel as purely a victim of aggression before and after 1948 is fiction.

Thanks

Toyin 


--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.


--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 9:03:47 AMJan 29
to usaafricadialogue
Thanks Cornelius.

I believe you are reinforcing my views.

Toyin 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/e0ffc0cc-7a03-4eb2-b166-d451acfb296bn%40googlegroups.com.

Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM, CDOA

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 9:03:47 AMJan 29
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Correction: "verifiable evidence please"

-CAO


On Monday 29 January 2024, Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM, CDOA <chidi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Oluwatoyin,

Veritable evidence please.

-CAO.
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.


--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfPmyVmPPPutMY-PDX%3DzNk4ysd6Hcoq%2BN5sDhMvQKg5bxw%40mail.gmail.com.


--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara

Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM, CDOA

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 9:03:47 AMJan 29
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Oluwatoyin,

Veritable evidence please.

-CAO.
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.


--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfPmyVmPPPutMY-PDX%3DzNk4ysd6Hcoq%2BN5sDhMvQKg5bxw%40mail.gmail.com.

cornelius...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 10:21:44 AMJan 29
to USA Africa Dialogue Series


Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju, 


I never tell you finish, and it’s of absolute relevance to some of the West’s, especially the guilt-ridden Germans’ prevailing attitude of nonchalance and callous indifference to the ongoing genocide in Gaza :  


# The chest-beating about replacement theology, like the doctrine of transubstantiation, the mental gymnastics according to which, at least in their minds (fantasy and mytho-therapy), Christians  - including Nigerian Christians, become the real deal, the real Israel, so this Berean Bible Church also believes…


# All that pontificating about Judeo-Christian values, ethics and traditions ( minus the slave trade capitalism, minus the Jesus of Lubeck, minus the colonialisms and minus the genocides, all of which are in fact not deeply rooted in or penetrated by pre-Christian Greek and Roman Culture. 


# To name just a few, our Gloria in Excelsis Emeagwali, Martin Bernal, popularisers such as John Henrik Clarke, Yosef Ben-Jochannan , Ivan Van Sertima, the knowledge pool arising out of the Cheikh Anta Diop school, Tony Martin, and later days saints such as Molefi Asante probably have a lot more to say about - in some quarters - the pervasive idea being purveyed by the rat race choir, that today’s Israel is part of the Western Hemisphere. It’s such a widespread and dearly held idea, maybe, because, born of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the mortal and the heavenly Jesus - assuming that he ever existed at all  - was a Jew - at least by patrilineal descent as per his genealogy outlined in the Gospel of Mathhew. From that first Christmas fast forward to how Christianity conquered the Roman Empire by Emperor Constantine adopting Christianity as the state religion - the religion of his Roman Empire united under the Holy Trinity & the Cross - an Empire which, after The Crusades -and the spirit of the Crusades remains in the Europe that has long since morphed into and resurrected as the European Union (with The Vatican currently on the charm offensive, legalising and blessing same-sex marriage before legalising Mary Jane,  which is the Rastafari’s holy Eucharist, His Holiness the Pope’s attempts at reuniting and re-integrating the Eastern Orthodox flank of the Holy family ( Empire) under the banner or canopy of Christ - backfiring, the Eastern flank saying nice try but no cigar, it’s Jesus and not the Vicar of Rome that's the head of our family… The Vatican still trying to get the Russians, the Syrians, the Ethiopians, the Copts, the Ukranians, the Patriarch of Constantinople, the Patariate in Jerusalem and in the long run, also The Arab League, on board.  


Continuing on the same trajectory as the holy grail of the Holy Roman Catholic church, of which Biden is a member ( hence it’s reported that a couple of months ago, just before all hell broke loose in Gaza, he (President Joe Biden) made the sign of the cross at a meeting with Netanyahu  - which I interpret in the general language of theatre as Biden sanctifying and protecting himself at a time of imminent danger  - a “ get thee behind me Satan “ - so to speak, when in the same situation ( meeting with Netanyahu) a Muslim such as Mahmoud Abbas would probably mutter under his breath “Audhu billahi min-ash shaytanir rajim “( “I seek refuge with Allah from Satan, the accursed”)


The Talmud ( Kiddushin 39B ) also records words to the same effect, that “One must not stand in a place of danger, expecting a miracle to protect the faithful”


# Aided by other historical circumstances, the mindset on Israel as an intrinsic part of the Western Hemisphere, has resulted in for example Israel taking part in the annual Eurovision Song  Contest  - an otherwise all-European event, hence the name Eurovision  - and this year the protests against Israel’s participation are gaining momentum, especially after the ICJ Judgment about the ongoing genocide in Gaza.


# On the other hand, for security reasons, Israel is zoned in with Europe when it comes to World Cup football since Israel’s Islamic neighbours say that they cannot guarantee the security of the Israeli football players on or off the holy football grounds, in the stadium,  on their way to or from the stadium / their hotel/ the restaurant/ the mikvah. That was the post-911, pre-October 7th situation. You don’t need to have a poetic or a prophetic imagination to imagine the extent to which the situation has deteriorated, making any football match between Israel and any of the OIC nations well nigh impossible in any foreseeable future…


Indeed, continuing on the same trajectory, security reasons, more protection for God’s holy children  - as if God or the demiurge, Marcion’s the God of the Old Testament, the blood-thirsty God can’t or is incapable of protecting them Himself,  I wouldn’t put it past Sleepy Joe Biden to extend an invitation formally requesting Israel to join NATO  - and he would surely do that - even formally incorporate the Zionist Entity ( Israel & the Occupied Territories) as the 51st State of the United States of America with the siamese twins Washington DC and Jerusalem as their eternal capital, by which move in the name of one love, one flesh, one destiny, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part, Iran’s “ little satan” and  “Great Satan” would have been welded together to become the same rock solid, indivisible entity…








--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com

To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.


--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com

To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com

To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 1:05:09 PMJan 29
to usaafricadialogue
Thanks Chidi.

Verifiable evidence of what?

That Jewish terrorist groups such as the Stern Gang and Irgun preceded and were central to the founding of Israel?

That two leaders of these groups, one being Menachem Begin of Irgun, later became Prime Ministers of Israel?

That these terrorist groups were responsible for displacing Palestinians from their lands even before and after 1948 when Israel was founded?

That these terrorist groups were later integrated into the Israeli army?

That the claim of Israel as purely a victim of aggression is fiction?

A little time would enable me to provide clear sources for such information but why should I spend my time that way?

This is simply a social media debate in which the benefit of such use of time on my part is debatable.

But if you took the trouble to try to disprove any of the claims I making, providing verifiable evidence that my claims are false , you would have demonstrated that your request for verifiable information is worth my investment in time, then I would engage your critique through research.

Meanwhile, you and I are simply two people on opposite sides of the conflict, debating on social media at the level of sharing opinions.

I used to jump at such challenges to provide evidence, quoting general and scholarly sources, but im more sensitive to the use of my time now, requiring the person asking for verification to prove their request is worthy of my taking the time to move beyond the simple task of sharing an  opinion.

I could change my mind, when perhaps I think I can afford the time for getting the info and providing it here, but before then I would only proceed further if you do more in disagreeing with me than simply expressing disagreement, which is where we are now. 

Thanks

Toyin 




Correction: "verifiable evidence please"

Oluwatoyin,

Veritable evidence please.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.


--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.


--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara



--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.

Harrow, Kenneth

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 1:21:47 PMJan 29
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Toyin, if i may offer my opinion here. The stern group and irgun group were peripheral. You are right to argue they were there, but you seem to put them in the center of israel’s early politics. Begen came quite a bit later. You need to talk about rabin and ben gurion. My impression is that you are conflating this 20 years of monstrous likud politics under netanyahu with the earlier labor.

Did israelis drive out the palestinians in 48? Only somewhat. Were some notorious instances of villages being attacked, but mostly ethnic cleansing occuring. Yes. But was that the whole pattern? No.
That's my considered opinion, which One Palestinian Complete by segev paints in detail.

What followed, with the settlers and then this continued attack on the two state solution, is more and more post Oslo.
I think you have read enough to concede these views. If i am wrong, ok. That's my view of things. The millions of israeli arabs still there attest to a continuing presence since the start.

The wars destroyed much of the early hope of creating a state of jews and arabs.

You might mention too that the stern gang attacked the british who were blocking the immigration of jews in the 40s because the brits wanted good relations with the arabs.

I'll repeat my major understanding: both jews and arabs were divided between those seeking to work and live together and those seeking to displace, drive out the other. Both sides. Not all of one, not all of another. Segev paints a picture of this is detail.
Ken


Kenneth Harrow
Emeritus Professor of English, Michigan State University
Harrow@msu/edu

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2024 12:52:44 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

cornelius...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 2:32:35 PMJan 29
to USA Africa Dialogue Series

Dear, most amazing Oluwatoyin,


Kudos, and much respect. 


That was a sharp, succinct, closely argued, honest, and in my view a perfect response from you.  


It deserves to occupy a column in the Palestine Chronicle , to be featured as an opinion piece in Al Jazeera or as an honest broker in any of the non-partisan media. 


As for Chidi, he’s behind the times,  still standing still and treading water (shedding waterfalls of tears) at the ad misericordiam default position of the secular zionists - Hitler did it to the Jews, so - God bless Chaim Weizmann and his backers who towards the end of the first world war were able to prevail over Balfour to issue The Balfour Declaration to give that which did not belong to him,  not a piece of Uganda ( the pearl of Africa) which had been first proposed and was apparently congenial enough to Herzl and his secular Zionists, but a piece of Palestine which was still a province of Syria, in the not yet defunct Ottoman Empire over which - like the vultures they were,  the greedy, predatory colonial Brits/ Britishers, and the equally hungry and predatory French were successfully extending their tentacles.


Does Chidi think that it was the Palestinians that perpetrated the Nazi Holocaust? 

Or that it is the Nazis that should be held responsible for the Nakba ? 

Is Chidi aware that Israel has now escalated their genocidal operations in Gaza, on all fronts as if the ICJ has given them the green light to do so whilst  Biden & Co continue to look the other way? 


 It looks like Chidi would like to go back to the Old Testament affidavit version about Joshua’s conquest of the seven nations of Canaan. // The Tanakh: Joshua’s conquest of the seven nations of Canaan.


 I daresay Chidi the pseudo-Israelite Christian missionary goy or guy needs to take this course designed by Sam Keen: “How to love your enemies and hate your friends”, it’s available on pages 62 -66 of To a dancing God  - by Sam Keen, published way back in 1970. It’s amazing how having zapped through that book, circa 1973, I could have regressed to taking fundamentalist pastor Samuel, even half-seriously…


Is this just another rumour, some more smoke without fire, or is it going to be fact:


Israel Is Building A $55 BILLION Canal Through Gaza!


 This song was about Nixon, post-Watergate, but it could as well have been about  Netanyahu 


“Sing a song for the wrong

 and the wicked and the strong

 and the sick, as thick as thieves…


He seems to tell us lies

and still we will believe him,

then together he will lead us 

into darkness, my friends…


Well, it ain't nobody's fault but our own,

still, at least we might could show the good sense

To know when we've been wrong, and it's already taken too long.

So we bring it to a stop then we take it from the top,

we let it settle on down softly like your gently falling snow

or let it tumble down and topple like the temple long ago…”


Ps: Oluwatoyin, I also had an uncle who I addressed as Uncle Olu: Samuel Beccles-Davies, his full name, Samuel Olu Beccles-Davies, he was the Chief Justice of Sierra Leone,at the time, a man of unimpeachable integrity, he lived in his own house, not in any official quarters, - he is the first person I called when my mother passed away in London on the 6th of January, 1998 - there were Nigerian soldiers in his house , when I called . Why? I asked him.” They are looking for the rascal”, he replied mysteriously. The rascal?  “ Yes, Johnny Paul Koroma “, he clarified - that’s the man I believe he had recently sworn in. Do you know where he is ?, I asked. “  It’s OK,  we can talk,” said he, “ I think that the rascal is up in the hills'' 

Harrow, Kenneth

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 3:40:02 PMJan 29
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
One of the issues debated about the foundation of israel was whether european jews should have been allowed to migrate to palestine. I wonder how chidi, toyin, cornelius think about this?
Ken

Kenneth Harrow
Emeritus Professor of English, Michigan State University
Harrow@msu/edu

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of cornelius...@gmail.com <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2024 1:53:31 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM, CDOA

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 3:40:02 PMJan 29
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Oluwatoyin,

You raised these allegations, so the onus of proof is on you.  

You can however choose to ignore this onus, thereby putting the credibility of your allegations in Jeopardy.

The choice is yours.

Correction: "verifiable evidence please"

Oluwatoyin,

Veritable evidence please.

To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.


--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.


--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara



--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfNp_tm1KzcWDA%3Dfqp%2BFCZJ9t8CfoxarLp5yop980mXbRA%40mail.gmail.com.

cornelius...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 4:39:25 PMJan 29
to USA Africa Dialogue Series

Complementary to Ken’s suggestion, for Oluwatoyin and Chidi’s attention, immensely readable (I have read it a few times, some passages, many times) : 


 Ben-Gurion by Robert St. John 


 //https://www.amazon.com/Ben-Gurion-extraordinary-Robert-St-John/dp/B0006AVWUG


in telling, firsthand, intimate detail it covers the life and the very eventful years of the premiership of Israel’s first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion  and you know from the Appreciation note that prefaces my 1959 edition, “These are the people on three continents who supplied the stories, checked the facts, decided the spellings, gave of their time, and deserve thanks “:  a long list of 36 prominent Israelis, 15 Israelis and Americans in U.S.A  and Canada, 9 prominent Israelis and others nations, “elsewhere.”


One of my  favourite shots from Ben-Gurion: page 215:


“ To a Jerusalem reporter who asked for an interview, he sent this written reply 👍


“ I do not give interviews to journalists ( a) because I am a journalist myself and whatever I say to the public I do so  in my own way, and (b) the first reason is sufficient.” 


On page 67, He ( Ben-Gurion) wound up 


“ Hitler may occupy Austria by brute force,  destroy Jews, and threaten France and Czechoslovakia. We are a small folk, with no army, no state, no power to compel. We cannot overawe the world. Our strength lies in one great asset we possess, the moral purity of our lives and works, our aspirations and our philosophy. Given courage, understanding, and clean hands, we shall win.”   


Pages 155 ff, cover the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte in Jerusalem 


“ Ben-Gurion was at G.H.Q on 17th September when he received a telephone call from Jerusalem.

“Bernadotte has been killed” 

The mediator had been on his way to keep an appointment with Dov Joseph, military governor of the New City.

Four men in a jeep blocked the road . Using Sten guns, they killed Bernadotte and a French U.N. observer sitting in the car beside him. 

The four men in khaki escaped, but the Stern Gang had already publicly taken “credit” for the assassination, and had sent notes to consulates in the Jewish part of Jerusalem threatening similar action against anyone who “ interferes with the interest of Jewish nationalism” 

Ben-Gurion did not vacillate. The instructions that went out from G.H.Q  to the military commander in Jerusalem were his : 


“ No.1: Arrest all STren members

“No. 2: Find and surround all Strewn bases and confiscate all arms.

“No. 3: Kill all resisters

“No. 4; Impose a curfew, close all borders and all roads leading out of Jerusalem

“No. 5: Take no action against Irgun unless they help the Strenists 

“No. 6: Act as soon as forces are available. 

 

That evening the Cabinet approved the Prime Minister’s suggestion to give Irgun until Tuesday noon to disband as a military unit.  A twenty-thousand-dollar reward was posted for the capture of Bernadotte’s murderers.

The Stren leader, Nathan Freidman-Yellin, was caught at Haifa port about to flee the country. Hundreds of other Strenists were rounded up..Irgun accepted the ultimatum and disbanded.

The murderers were never caught, but another crisis had passed and Ben-Gurion had come out of it more of a world leader than ever, respected, now, even in Whitehall, and with his own country fairly well united behind him.” 

Cornelius Hamelberg

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 4:39:25 PMJan 29
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
 "allowed"?

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/usaafricadialogue/UbmCTjVrFLU/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB575539DC55FF08087F19BA96DA7E2%40BL1PR12MB5755.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 4:39:25 PMJan 29
to usaafricadialogue
Thanks Ken, Cornelius and Chidi.

Thanks for the book recommendation, Ken.

I would love to learn as much as possible about this conflict.  

On the migration of European and one could add, US Jews, to Palestine, I wish the Arabs, Jews and the UN could have worked better together, insisting on ironing out all issues to the satisfaction of all parties before the founding of Israel.

When telling my family the context of the Jewish expression "next year in Jerusalem" it brought tears to my eyes.

A brutally dispersed people, never fully achieving integration in Europe where they had fled, expelled from Spain after it regained its independence from the Moors, thriving and contributing hugely to global culture and history in spite of being subject to recurrent intimidations, deprivations and even pogroms, culminating in the epic monstrosity of the Holocaust, even at a time subjected to admissions quotas in US universities, in their years in Europe repeating to themselves their yearnings for their homeland ",next year in Jerusalem" even though they had no idea of how to get back.

Thanks

Toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB575539DC55FF08087F19BA96DA7E2%40BL1PR12MB5755.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 4:39:25 PMJan 29
to usaafricadialogue
Thanks, Ken.

Does pre 1948 Zionist terrorism not encapsulate central values of the Zionist project?

Does the emphasis on force rather than negotiation not significantly represent how Israel was founded and subsequently sustained?

Do the values represented by founders and leaders of those terrorist groups not often define Israeli international relations with its neighbours?

True, Begin may not have entered Israeli life after 1948 as a recognized political leader,, one view describing him as long consigned to the "political wilderness" before he eventually became PM.

Its also vital, as you suggest, for one to gain as broad an overview as possible, of the complex history, in relation to.the complementary roles of the various actors, including such heroes of Israeli history as Ben Gurion and Yitzak Rabin and his historic accord with Arafat, for which he lost his life at the hands of an Israeli extremist even as Arafat's PLO renounced terrorism.

Great thanks to all contributors.

A truly sad story.

Semitic brethren, in terrible conflict across generations.

Thanks

Toyin

Harrow, Kenneth

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 5:11:26 PMJan 29
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Toyin, your writing about jews and israel is moving, to me. And your openness of mind, admirable. Please try to imagine israel, from the start, as being an amalgam of different points of view, including living and working with arabs…. Not all irgun or stern or that horrible jabotinsky, who wanted to driveout the arabs.

Who ultimately prevailed in this struggle? Maybe we shouldfocus on this question. The answer is clear: the bad guys, the worst we have ever had.

Killing and driving out.
Ok, darfur, too, like that.
But we have to speak out against it, and for jews who thought the creation of israel was the greatest thing ever for our people, this now has turned into a nightmare. 
Ken

Kenneth Harrow
Emeritus Professor of English, Michigan State University
Harrow@msu/edu

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2024 4:04:51 PM

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 29, 2024, 5:11:27 PMJan 29
to usaafricadialogue
I first learnt of these issues from my father's magazines and books, where, without fully understanding what they meant, I first encountered Israeli war hero Moshe Dayan with his eye patch, Yasser Arafat with his Palestinian scarf, Israeli PM Golda Meier with her rugged, granite face, pictures of masked PLO soldiers as they assassinated Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics, and, in the wider Middle East context, a younger Gaddafi.

In primary school, I was so captivated by a TIME magazine article on Begin and the Irgun, I copied it out verbatim and submitted it for a class assignment.

My teacher simply returned it with the gentle observation "you are not the only one who reads TIME."

I entered into Holocaust literature with Yaffa Eliach's Hasidic Tales of the Holocaust, which I bought in a card/bookshop stall on a street in Benin and used in my University of Benin MA,  leading me to Arnold Band's translation of the tales of Nahman of Bratslav, which I bought at a church bookshop in Benin, itself leading me  to Joseph Dan's splendid preface, dovetailing with my exposure to Dan's predecessor at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, Gershom Scholem, founder of the modern, scholarly study of Jewish mysticism, bringing to Israel at the time of its founding his combination of analytical rigour, ideational elevation and ideational  concreteness uniquely developed by German scholarship at its best, Scholem being one of those compelled by the Nazi onslaught on Jews to reassess and identify with their Jewish ancestry, even teaching himself Hebrew, if I recall his story correctly, enabling him explore recondite texts in Jewish esotericism.

This exposure complemented my earlier introduction to the Western adaptation of Jewish Kabbala, an exposure represented for me by the Hermitic Science Centre then at Uselu-Lagos Road in Benin, where, among books by the early 20th century masters in Western esotericism, there was one titled Ten Luminous Emanations, its cover displaying a drawing of a man at the mouth of a cave, over whom washed a great light emanating from a distant source, a drawing depicting the story of the revelation of the  primary structures of creation , the ten Sephiroth, the cosmological vision of Kabala, to rabbi Simeon ben Yohai, if I recall the name correctly.

One of the most memorable artistic works for me is contemporary German artist Anselm Kieffer's Breaking of the Vessels, conflating the Holocaust and the Kabbala as interpreted by Isaac Luria.

The Holocaust is represented in the sculpture by broken glass scattered around its base, evoking Kristellnacht, the Night of Broken Glass, in which Nazis in Germany signaled their genocidal intentions by  destroyingJewish shops and burning Jewish books, the sculpture  a structure composed of charred books linked by twisted wires on which are attached names of the primary centres of existence, the Kabbalistic Sephiroth,  evoking Luria's interpretation of Kabala, in which the universe comes into being through the shattering of the vessels, the Sephiroth,  into which the Creator infused his power at the beginning of the creation, those vessels which shattered under the impact of the divine force becoming the morally chaotic universe we now inhabit, the divine sparks within the shards constituting uplifting values humans need to identify with, thereby lifting the sparks back to their divine origins, enabling cosmic restitution, a vision powerfully adapted by Hasidim in trying to create meaning in the hell of the Nazi concentration camps, where reality was evily transfigured and all justice seemed to have broken down, as Eliach's book describes.

Another most memorable Jewish scholarly/religious figure for me is Rashi, Rabbi Shelomoh Ben Isaac, whom I encountered by chance in my family's Encyclopedia Britannica, books initiating me into scholarship. 

Rashi was too poor to attend Jewish religious school full time, and so could not memorize the lectures in school, as better opportuned  students did, so he wrote them down instead and studied them in his free time when herding his family's animals, if I recall correctly. 

However, on account of  anti-Jewish pogroms of the kind that periodically occured in European history, the teachers were killed, from what I recall of the story, and "surviving students without teachers" sought out Rashi and his lecture notes, leading to the tradition of religious commentary he excelled in, his comments on the Jewish religious classics he studied and annotated being often subsequently printed in the margins of editions of the texts.

Meeting a Hasid, with the characteristic long beard, in London, I shared with him my fascination with Nahman's stories.The man frowned in disapproval. 
"Those stories are for Jews" he responded.

I was puzzled. How can the equivalent of fairy tales, written by a Jew, even such a spiritual master as Nahman, deeply immersed in Kabbala, be for Jews alone?

Are the Kabbalistic possibilities of his tales not explained in the multitudes of commentary on his works?  

Do his stories, his ministry and life not have value beyond their sectarian grounding in a Jewish spirituality,Hasidism?

Do the motifs of the heart, the beggar, the princess and other magnificently constructed images in his stories not resonate beyond Jewry and Judaism?

Thanks

Toyin

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 12:31:05 AMJan 30
to usaafricadialogue
Great thanks Ken.

Ill reflect on that call for balance as I seek further education.

Toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB5755B1B3C2802A20D17D2221DA7E2%40BL1PR12MB5755.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

cornelius...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 12:31:05 AMJan 30
to USA Africa Dialogue Series
Sorry, sorry,  sorry. Corrections: 

Ben-Gurion did not vacillate. The instructions that went out from G.H.Q  to the military commander in Jerusalem were his : 


“ No.1: Arrest all Stern members

“No. 2: Find and surround all Stern bases and confiscate all arms.

“No. 3: Kill all resisters

“No. 4; Impose a curfew, close all borders and all roads leading out of Jerusalem

“No. 5: Take no action against Irgun unless they help the Sternists 

“No. 6: Act as soon as forces are available. 




cornelius...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 12:31:18 AMJan 30
to USA Africa Dialogue Series

I’m sure that “ The Curse of Ham” notwithstanding, God, is not a racist. 


If Ken wants to start a serious discussion on that topic he had better kick-start it with some of his own precious opinions for us to savour. I’m looking forward to the discussion. My understanding is that someone who is born a Jew does not have to be religious, and that for the race and colour fixated it’s all about 1.5 of Solomon’s Shir Hashirim - Song of Songs 👍 in which Solomon boasts,


“I am black but comely, O daughters of Jerusalem! Like the tents of Kedar, like the curtains of Solomon.” 


Ages ago I read Ricardo Gordon’s The Colors of Jews 


“See the white man sailing his ship up on the sea,

Watch the white man shackle the black man to a tree.

To the invader go the fruits of war,

He misses home and his boots are sore.

He has not got no roots no more”´(Rock 'n' Roll Is Music Now


Cornelius was last in Sierra Leone, and only for ten days, the 20th - 30th April 1970 and then took the plane back to join his wife who was waiting for him @ the Black Star Nation, Accra, Ghana: https://www.youtube.com/@Aristosband/videos - at which time I had no idea where Sweden was on the world map, but knew a bit about Gustavus Adolphus and though that the Volvo Amazon was a fairly good car but not on par with the Mercedes Benz.  In my early days in Stockholm, I noticed that African immigrants identified their women by car brands.,” My old Volvo”  which sounded a bit like “ vulva”( Indian speakers say “wolwo”),  “my new Saab”, like a  Ford Mustang, no discrimination, my Rolls-Royce Lady, great shock absorbers, Taj Mahal boasting that he’s ” built for comfort”, happy that” big legged mamas are back in style again “


In the meantime, Apartheid was empowered in South Africa and threatening all mankind in Rhodesia, Angola, Mozambique, and Namibia, whilst Israel was walking hand in hand and side by side with Apartheid South Africa. Israel sent a low-grade delegation to Madiba's Funeral. 


Instead of asking the Black Zionists, the contemporary comrades of the Back-to-Africa movement and the 21st-century disciples of Marcus Garvey of the Black Star Line fame making aliyah to Africa, Ken is wondering what “chidi, toyin, cornelius think about this” and I’m sure  that he also wants to know how we, he, she, they feel about this.  The fact is, he who feels it knows.  

 

A whole lotta people get confused when they hear Rasta and Reggae man going on and on about Zion and Babylon, and the organisation to which Bob Marley belonged under the leadership of their Prophet Gad -  the twelve tribes of Israel - to which I belonged in 1985 - assigned the tribe of Judah the tribe that people born between June 22 and July 22. are said to belong to…  


Chidi and Oluwatoyin’s feet are firmly planted in the soil of Mother Africa. I say that guradeluý about Chidi bearing in mind Joseph Brodsky being asked about his roots and protesting that he was not a tree…


Over to Chidi and Oluwatoyin, and, hopefully, Baba Kadiri who usually puts things straight and takes no prisoners. 

Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM, CDOA

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 1:51:32 AMJan 30
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
"One of the issues debated about the foundation of israel was whether european jews should have been allowed to migrate to palestine. I wonder how chidi, toyin, cornelius think about this?"-Ken

Why not?

Nations' citizenship should not be based on race.

By the way, I do not share Netanyahu's opinion on the two-state solution.

There should be a Palestine state existing side by side with the State of Israel as soon as the menace of terrorism as represented by Hamas, etc is completely eliminated.

-CAO.

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 2:41:21 AMJan 30
to usaafricadialogue
How will you eliminate Hamas terrorism as long as you continue to occupy Palestinian land and brutalize Palestinians?

Was Hamas not created to combat that colonization and oppression?

Is it not more realistic to enter into negotiations with Hamas and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank to reach terms equally agreeable to both sides?

It is this recognition and negotiation with the only military group fighting Israeli colonization and oppression that Israel and its allies seem to want to avoid while they pulverize the Palestinians at will.

Thanks

Toyin 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CABTLsggebSCLYgwDKooNhrw9%3DMT5Lsa_WBJY1xFM39rwB%2Bq%3D4g%40mail.gmail.com.

Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM, CDOA

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 4:08:31 AMJan 30
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Oluwatoyin,

The tenets of negotiation do not recognize the principles Hamas and other Arab terror groups espouse.

-CAO.
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMJB-Wg7iqMFtV2x66SgXsjrFs6smTeRrR4vTAD-uDgKw%40mail.gmail.com.

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 4:17:59 AMJan 30
to usaafricadialogue
What are the principles?

Has Israel not negotiated with Hamas for a hostage and prisoner swap?

Thanks

Toyin

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.


--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CABTLsgjQB%3DWZFnRSVOg%3DCXPr5uyAT%3DjG8Rh5JbzDGTCuUNA4Tw%40mail.gmail.com.

Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM, CDOA

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 6:23:10 AMJan 30
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
The principles are widely known, so no need to do a rehash here.

The hostages and prisoners swaps negotiations are not directly between Israel and Hamas.

Those negotiations are done by third parties (Egypt, etc) close to Israel and Hamas.

-CAO.
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfNvFN3QcmNCV4q30Do%2BdsT94U2c%3Dh%2Bcv7N0jg%3DRsnuwNQ%40mail.gmail.com.

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 6:54:44 AMJan 30
to usaafricadialogue
The core issue is that the two parties dialogue, even if through intermediaries, and agree to terms.

Thanks

Toyin 



--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CABTLsgi%2BjwRdHD75ZoLXJ_N2UqFgKRL9txR27gjg24_GwqVYXw%40mail.gmail.com.

Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM, CDOA

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 10:28:43 AMJan 30
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
They did not "dialogue", third parties did on their behalf.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfPZHE7jixA_aweuFpYjVe2Cma89i1bn-_o6yb7zqXPkVQ%40mail.gmail.com.

cornelius...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 11:11:01 AMJan 30
to USA Africa Dialogue Series

“I am black but comely, O daughters of Jerusalem! Like the tents of Kedar, like the curtains of Solomon”


“Someone else is speakin’ with my mouth, but I’m listening only to my heart

I’ve made shoes for everyone, even you, while I still go barefoot” ( Dylan: I and I )


“Do not look upon me [disdainfully] because I am swarthy, for the sun has gazed upon me; my mother's sons were incensed against me; they made me a keeper of the vineyards; my own vineyard I did not keep.” ( Song of Songs Verse 6)


One of the issues debated about the foundation of Israel was whether European Jews should have been allowed to migrate to Palestine.


It’s a heavy topic. So, who is or was it that should have been doing the disallowing of any of God’s children, and not be charged with discrimination, racism, and antisemitism?


I’d like to hear from Ken, from Moshe, the unabashed anti-Hamas, pro-Israeli spokesperson Chidi Anthony Opara, and of course, from the more balanced, nuanced and pro-harmony, pro-Justice, pro-human rights, pro-life in dignity, peace and tranquillity, everywhere in the cosmos: Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju 


The impression one gets - from the media - is that in Israel, with some exceptions of course, such as from  South Africa (Abba Eban - a good Jew), otherwise, generally speaking  “European Jews” (Ashkenazi ) that have emigrated from Western Countries -  from Europe, North America (for example Meir Kahane and his disciple  Baruch Goldstein), Australia ( e.g. Mark Regev) are more racist and more aggressive towards Palestinians than the Sephardi, the  Mizrahi ( e.g. Yosef Mizrachi) and the Arab Jews.


In the given circumstances European antisemitism culminated in Hitler’s Final Solution and it was mostly “European Jews” that were annihilated in the Holocaust; the remnant needed a safe haven where they could prosper without being treated like vermin and specially targeted as objects of antisemitism. Their ancient homeland fitted the bill nicely, since home, sweet home is not supposed to be a place where hatred is. The watchword was Aliyah. The rest is history. 


Jews emigrated from all over the world to Israel


Jews emigrated from Arab countries and Iran


Here are the statistics: Total Immigration to Israel by Country of Origin (1948 - Present)

cornelius...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 11:11:01 AMJan 30
to USA Africa Dialogue Series
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."  (Grucho Marx 

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 11:11:02 AMJan 30
to usaafricadialogue
Carrying messages between both parties.

Thanks

Toyin

To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.


--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.

More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CABTLsgjdL4gOaXTR5qXgDUACHrOz_byxspuNdbgVXTGLG23-jQ%40mail.gmail.com.

Harrow, Kenneth

unread,
Jan 30, 2024, 5:22:39 PMJan 30
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Dear all
What prompted my question about immigration of european jews into israel was a discussion with a friend about how many of those who came, especially in the 30s and 40s, were refugees. We all agree on the principle that refugees should be admitted to any country.
In any event, my friend said, yes, refugees coming in, that’s fine. Not fine if they turn into occupying settlers. 
That’s a vexed question in israel. Some of those immigrants wanted to displace arabs; others to live alongside, and probably all hoped for a homeland eventually, which they got in 1948.

I thought of other settler colonies, kenya, s africa, the portuguese colonies, even india or the u.s.a. These cases are all somewhat different, with, let’s say, some american immigrants being religious refugees, like pilgrims or huguenots. The indigenous peoples were hardly uniform; some ultimately allied with the growing americans against their common foes, as happened in africa as colonialism got started, everywhere that i know of. But eventually, in africa, anyway, colonialism masked what emerged: a conquest, often brutal. In the americas we had conquistadores, also brutal conquest. Every settler colony in africa became a brutal conquest that displaced indigenous peoples and resulted in the awful history we all know.

So, what about israel? The numbers show almost a million jews coming from arab lands into israel, yemenites, syrians, egyptians, etc. many were forced by circumstances or worse to leave. The almost two million russians and ukrainians who came included many we’d call refugees. Many of those now live as settlers on the west bank; many couldn’t care less about their displacement of arabs. The former arab jews—called sephardis—include netanyahu and his followers.

Rightwing settler governments turn legitimate desires to immigrate into nightmares for other people: a clear example is southern rhodesia, and apartheid south africa, not to mention japan in korea or china. 
That’s why i asked the question of chidi, oluwatoyin, and cornelius,who have been actively discussing israel. How are we to think of this. The protests against israel’s actions here in the u.s., and probably europe, are lined up with attacks on israel as a settler colonial state. I don’t agree that that is accurate, yet, my conundrum above leaves me wearied and uncertain whether criticizing the rightwing govt is enough for us to evaluate the whole situation and history.
Ken

Kenneth Harrow
Emeritus Professor of English, Michigan State University
Harrow@msu/edu

Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2024 10:54:00 AM

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

unread,
Jan 31, 2024, 12:56:56 AMJan 31
to usaafricadialogue
Well done Ken

Toyin

cornelius...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 31, 2024, 12:59:11 AMJan 31
to USA Africa Dialogue Series

Dear Ken,


I'll attend to your last paragraph later.


Shlomo Sands wouldn’t mind, but surely, you know that the most famous son of Benzion Mileikowsky wouldn’t take kindly to you referring to him and his followers as “former arab jews”?


Somehow, it’s not often mentioned that quite a few North African Jews are descendants of Berber converts.


There’s this joke that I’ve heard several times, that Muammar Gaddafi once invited some of Libya’s top brass to a meeting and there he told them,” It has been brought to my attention that there’s a rumour going around that my mother is Jewish. Now, if there’s anyone here that believes this, please raise your hand !”  


Although for the past ten days, I haven’t been watching Al-Jazeera for more than fifteen minutes a day and have thereby avoided the recurring bloody and horrific footage of man's inhumanity to men, to women and children, I have been having - experiencing some terrible  - truly harrowing nightmares, some of which I believe to be prophetic and I cannot find a better word to describe them since they have assured me  - very clearly - that war is coming to Europe  - and specifically to Sweden - absolutely. The only thing is that I don’t know exactly when  - if it will be before or after Sweden becomes a full-fledged member of NATO - if it will be Trump or  Old man Biden still sitting and sleeping in the saddle, and of course, in the meanwhile, I don’t intend to start feeling like the Biblical Noah or Kierkegaard's Clown, or Anton Johansson who nobody seems to be taking seriously, so I must start preparing - seriously - how Better Half & I will manage to get to the nearest bomb shelter  -or better still a hideout that can take a nuclear hit and the kinds of provisions we should have in case we will have to be holed up there through winter and even worse weather. 


World War Is Coming?


This is frightening! 


I just listened to Sam Harris shooting his mouth off here :


New Podcast Episode: #351 - 5 Myths about Israel and the War in Gaza


It’s terrible, terrible -  from the point on when he says, so softly, 

” sometimes war is necessary”


Chidi Anthony Opara shouldn't have to worry too much. It’s doubtful that anyone would want to bomb and occupy his Garden of Eden over there at the Owerri Poet’s Motor Park or if it would matter terribly if they did and Chidi led the resistance and they called him a terrorist ..

cornelius...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 31, 2024, 4:49:07 PMJan 31
to USA Africa Dialogue Series

Dear Sir,


The antisemites and hypocrites who are supporting Israel or are pretending to be supporting Israel, are happy, they are secretly rejoicing in their hearts, that Israel is in this kind of situation, facing the whole world's opprobrium. They look forward to seeing Israel squirming in the position she’s in - she - supposed to be the Sabbath bride. They ( the anti semites) would like to intensify Israel’s dilemma, Israel surrounded by hostile neighbours who are witnessing daily, the ongoing massacres of their people in Gaza, their hostility and hatred increasing incrementally, and magnified a millionfold, praying to Allah for victory and assured of victory  - al-Fath, in response to current events, a payback time and a holocaust that should supersede the last one - some kind of “operation spare no living thing” , so that “never again” would be superfluous, when there’s no one left to kill, if this hadith is anything to go by. 


Leon Thomas sings of the situation that's unfolding: Shape your mind to die. 


As for the Christian missionaries, as is written in their Bibles, a time will come when things will be so bad for the Jews that they will most sincerely cry out to God, and it is then that Jesus will come…

 

According to the UN, Gaza is now "uninhabitable"


Things are happening: 


LIVE | UN Security Council Meeting On Israel-Hamas War After ICJ Ruling On Gaza

 

Sinn Fein tabled this motion in the Irish Parliament a few hours ago:


Israeli impunity must end – Irish Government should join genocide case against Israel at ICJ


BBC HARDtalk: Ronald Lamola - Minister of Justice South Africa


Re - your submission: ”The protests against israel’s actions here in the u.s., and probably europe, are lined up with attacks on israel as a settler colonial state. I don’t agree that that is accurate, yet, my conundrum above leaves me wearied and uncertain whether criticizing the rightwing govt is enough for us to evaluate the whole situation and history.”


It is not only the current right-wing government that is guilty of crimes against humanity. And it was not a Palestinian nationalist that assassinated Yitzhak Rabin


Given the preceding historical circumstance, post-the Holocaust, the Israel portion of the partitioned Palestine as a welcoming homeland and safe haven for the Jewish people who have only been subjected and subjugated to a long history of persecution in exile, at the beginning at least, judged by intentions alone, the Zionist idea of a return to the ancient homeland does not wholly deserve the judgement “Israel is a colonial settler state “, but after what has happened, beginning with the Nakba, right through the ongoing Nakba Number 2, the term  “Israeli Gestapo chief “ is not entirely out of place either, because the fact is that when someone - anyone  - acts like a Nazi, then he or she is a Nazi.


When is a terrorist, not a terrorist? When he is a holy Israeli terrorist?


And when is a genocide not a genocide? It is genocide, when you deliberately kill 13, 000  innocent women and children, systematically and indiscriminately terror-bomb the homes and residences of an entire population in that crowded city, bomb all the hospitals, including the maternity wards, and bomb the patients on life support, bomb the doctors and healthcare workers, bomb all the refugee camps, bomb some of the mosques and churches, bomb all the schools, playgrounds, and universities, to deny the kids a future, kill at least 85 journalists and media workers, bomb and destroy the water supply and electricity facilities, bomb the radio and tv stations, create and maintain a situation in which food is in such short supply and the population is on the brink of starvation, and it's even difficult for the 1.8 million displaced people now on the run to uncertain and unsafe shelters, to find a toilet to defecate, the Almighty God of all creation is not amused. 


If it was the tables turned and in the name of wanting to exterminate the IDF, it was the Palestinians  who were doing to the Israelis, what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, then Tony Blinken and Joe Biden would be crying for a ceasefire 


All the Palestinian blood that has  been spilt did run down the drain  and cannot have been in vain, so, understandably, you will be hearing the international cry, AMANDLA and that which is anathema to Satanyahu’s ears: From the river to the sea, Palestine Must Be FREE 

Harrow, Kenneth

unread,
Jan 31, 2024, 7:06:33 PMJan 31
to USA Africa Dialogue Series
alas, it is too true, this terrible state of affairs.
i listened to ha aretz's zoom call on the question of the genocide trial this afternoon. one of the 4 speakers was an arab woman reporter who described what we all have seen and heard now for two months, the terrible destruction cornelius describes so well (23,000 dead or more. maybe 25,000 by now—remember 1200 israelis were killed, so the kill ration is twenty to one,.,,and growing)
the shocking account this woman reporter, who is, i believe israeli arab, was accompanied by the information that all the details of this devastating destruction that we are seeing, which no decent people could stomach, is being kept from the israeli people. at first when i was told that, i didn't believe it since we all get onto the internet. now i am learning it is apparently true....
where are the voices in israel opposing this destruction of innocent lives?
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2024 4:35 PM
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages