"Perry Mason: Official Teaser | HBO" on YouTube

[Steve Timko]

https://youtu.be/CwURtbhpm60 

The trailer looks great.

[Melissa P]

They couldn't get access to the original music?

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:32 AM Steve Timko <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://youtu.be/CwURtbhpm60 

The trailer looks great.

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[Tom Wolper]

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:56 AM Melissa P <takingup...@gmail.com> wrote:

They couldn't get access to the original music?

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:32 AM Steve Timko <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://youtu.be/CwURtbhpm60 

The trailer looks great.

As good as the series may turn out to be, this isn't Perry Mason. Though I know better than to expect remakes to be faithful to their originals, Perry Mason's genius was in a courtroom. Mason stories were about gathering evidence and presenting it in court. Whatever had to be done outside the office, aside from witness interviews, would be done by Paul Drake. In the 1950s/60s series Drake was all attitude and rare action. In the later Perry Mason TV movies, William Katt's Drake got into car chases and fistfights and that looks more like concessions to network suits as to what should be in a crime drama. I hope this version of Mason works for what it is but it isn't what Perry Mason is supposed to be.

[Kevin M.]

Looks more like Mike Hammer to me 

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Kevin M. (RPCV)

[PGage]

A while ago I started a rewatch of the original Perry Mason series from S1E1 (thanks CBS Access). I got derailed a while ago, and am only midway through season 3 (still, a lot of episodes considering how many they made each season in those days - 39 in season 1!). 

I think Tom’s description is mostly right, but I would modify a bit. A typical episode is about 1/4 set up of the murder, usually with little or no Mason, 1/4 investigation, and while Drake is usually given a lot of this to do, most often he just reports back what he learned. Camera time is given to Perry (sometimes with Paul, sometimes with Della, often solo) interviewing key players, often including his client (who usually begins by telling Perry some lie that later makes the client look bad). The third quarter is the opening of the trial, which almost always starts out looking very bad for Perry. This portion of the show often still has investigation featured, with either Perry or Paul finding some key evidence. The last portion of course is the set up for the big moment when Perry breaks a witness on the stand, often, though not always the guilty party.

So, I think a modern Mason that spent 25-50% of its time on investigation, with Perry doing much of it, would not be too far from the original. Of course Perry himself hardly ever is involved in anything that would qualify as “action”, though there are a few exceptions. Indeed, I have been surprised how much the structure of a typical Perry Mason episode resembles a Colombo episode, except of course the audience does not know who the murderer is until the penultimate scene.

The last time we talked about Mason here there was some discussion of how his relationship with Della is presented. Through Season 3 I would say it with some ambiguity. There have been a couple of scenes of them having late night meetings in his apartment, and they often go to dinner together, sometimes though not always with Paul. It has some elements of a more mature Donna/Josh relationship, with both clearly loving the other, but teasing and encouraging each other about possible romantic relationships. It also has some of the flavor of a late 50’s Will and Grace relationship, and it would be totally believable if the backstory is they were young lovers, for whatever reason realized that wouldn’t work, but remain totally committed to each other. So far I have not seen any indication of either going out on a date with anyone else. Drake has a diluted Bond/Moneypenny relationship with Della, but seems no serious romantic partner.

I seem to remember that in the re-makes Della is presented as a widow, but so far see no sign of her on the marriage trail.

I think I have read that Hale was aware of Burr’s homosexuality; not sure if anyone in production was. I have read that the real concern was with Burr’s weight, and they kept pressuring him to diet.

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:50 AM Tom Wolper <two...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Dave Sikula]

Even though I watched the original TV version in real time, I don't have a lot of memories of it. My main familiarity with the character now is from the movies made in the 30s, which vary in quality. Some of them are set in Los Angeles, but at least one is in San Francisco. Sometimes he's operating a one-lawyer firm, while in others, he has a vast network of associates, investigators, and telephone operators, and takes only the most interesting cases. In most of them, Allan Jenkins plays "Spudsy" Drake, who's kind of dumb, but persistent, so Perry ends up having to do a lot of the investigating himself.

The main saving grace of the series (most of which are pretty good) is Warren William (king of the pre-Codes) as a wolfish Perry (who seems more concerned with his cooking skills than murder in one film) and Claire Dodd as Della. There is little-to-no doubt as to the nature of their relationship, even if the Production Code didn't allow them to fully spell it out. I recommend almost all of them, but the last one with Donald Woods as Mason is a little bland (as is Woods).

I once had a dream that I was standing on the porch of my childhood home and Fred Steiner's theme music came up. A convertible drove down the street, and Monte Markham was sitting on the top of the rear seat like he was in a parade. I thought "They tried to make us think Monte Markham was Perry Mason, but it was really Raymond Burr." Then I woke up.

--Dave Sikula

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 2:24:34 PM UTC-7, PGage wrote:

A while ago I started a rewatch of the original Perry Mason series from S1E1 (thanks CBS Access). I got derailed a while ago, and am only midway through season 3 (still, a lot of episodes considering how many they made each season in those days - 39 in season 1!). 

I think Tom’s description is mostly right, but I would modify a bit. A typical episode is about 1/4 set up of the murder, usually with little or no Mason, 1/4 investigation, and while Drake is usually given a lot of this to do, most often he just reports back what he learned. Camera time is given to Perry (sometimes with Paul, sometimes with Della, often solo) interviewing key players, often including his client (who usually begins by telling Perry some lie that later makes the client look bad). The third quarter is the opening of the trial, which almost always starts out looking very bad for Perry. This portion of the show often still has investigation featured, with either Perry or Paul finding some key evidence. The last portion of course is the set up for the big moment when Perry breaks a witness on the stand, often, though not always the guilty party.

So, I think a modern Mason that spent 25-50% of its time on investigation, with Perry doing much of it, would not be too far from the original. Of course Perry himself hardly ever is involved in anything that would qualify as “action”, though there are a few exceptions. Indeed, I have been surprised how much the structure of a typical Perry Mason episode resembles a Colombo episode, except of course the audience does not know who the murderer is until the penultimate scene.

The last time we talked about Mason here there was some discussion of how his relationship with Della is presented. Through Season 3 I would say it with some ambiguity. There have been a couple of scenes of them having late night meetings in his apartment, and they often go to dinner together, sometimes though not always with Paul. It has some elements of a more mature Donna/Josh relationship, with both clearly loving the other, but teasing and encouraging each other about possible romantic relationships. It also has some of the flavor of a late 50’s Will and Grace relationship, and it would be totally believable if the backstory is they were young lovers, for whatever reason realized that wouldn’t work, but remain totally committed to each other. So far I have not seen any indication of either going out on a date with anyone else. Drake has a diluted Bond/Moneypenny relationship with Della, but seems no serious romantic partner.

I seem to remember that in the re-makes Della is presented as a widow, but so far see no sign of her on the marriage trail.

I think I have read that Hale was aware of Burr’s homosexuality; not sure if anyone in production was. I have read that the real concern was with Burr’s weight, and they kept pressuring him to diet.

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:50 AM Tom Wolper <two...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:56 AM Melissa P <takingu...@gmail.com> wrote:

They couldn't get access to the original music?

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:32 AM Steve Timko <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://youtu.be/CwURtbhpm60 

The trailer looks great.

As good as the series may turn out to be, this isn't Perry Mason. Though I know better than to expect remakes to be faithful to their originals, Perry Mason's genius was in a courtroom. Mason stories were about gathering evidence and presenting it in court. Whatever had to be done outside the office, aside from witness interviews, would be done by Paul Drake. In the 1950s/60s series Drake was all attitude and rare action. In the later Perry Mason TV movies, William Katt's Drake got into car chases and fistfights and that looks more like concessions to network suits as to what should be in a crime drama. I hope this version of Mason works for what it is but it isn't what Perry Mason is supposed to be.

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[Tom Wolper]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 6:20 AM 'Dave Sikula' via TVorNotTV <tvor...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Even though I watched the original TV version in real time, I don't have a lot of memories of it. My main familiarity with the character now is from the movies made in the 30s, which vary in quality. Some of them are set in Los Angeles, but at least one is in San Francisco. Sometimes he's operating a one-lawyer firm, while in others, he has a vast network of associates, investigators, and telephone operators, and takes only the most interesting cases. In most of them, Allan Jenkins plays "Spudsy" Drake, who's kind of dumb, but persistent, so Perry ends up having to do a lot of the investigating himself.

The main saving grace of the series (most of which are pretty good) is Warren William (king of the pre-Codes) as a wolfish Perry (who seems more concerned with his cooking skills than murder in one film) and Claire Dodd as Della. There is little-to-no doubt as to the nature of their relationship, even if the Production Code didn't allow them to fully spell it out. I recommend almost all of them, but the last one with Donald Woods as Mason is a little bland (as is Woods).

I once had a dream that I was standing on the porch of my childhood home and Fred Steiner's theme music came up. A convertible drove down the street, and Monte Markham was sitting on the top of the rear seat like he was in a parade. I thought "They tried to make us think Monte Markham was Perry Mason, but it was really Raymond Burr." Then I woke up.

Back to the old TV series - Gardner wrote dozens of Mason books and the early episodes were based on them. I recall it took place in an unnamed city. The distinguishing thing about the Mason mysteries was that the clients and stories revolved around the wealthy. For average Joes watching on TV it was a glimpse into the homes and lives of the 1%. I don't know how big the writing staff was but at some point they ran out of Gardner stories and they had to branch out into other areas and other kinds of cases. At one point William Talman (DA Burger) was arrested for cannabis possession and didn't appear on the series for a while. At that point a lot of stories took place in rural areas outside of LA with various prosecutors. A shortcut the series took was to make the court proceedings take place in pretrial hearings. I think the reason they did this was to save on extras by not having to show a jury in the courtroom.

Perry's relationship with Della on the show is simple: they are an old married couple with no hint of marriage or sex. Code era movies had ways of letting mature viewers know that characters had sex while leaving the young or naive unaware and that's not present at all in the series. It's hard to relate to a modern context because it doesn't exist in a modern context. They are an exclusive couple with no physical touch. And I don't think it has anything to do with Burr's orientation. If that hadn't been completely buried during the run of the show the sponsors would have fled and the show would have been canceled.

Since HBO is letting me watch The Wire these days I would say the new HBO series is making Mason out to be McNulty and that doesn't work for me. The closest character by profession is Levy, the defense attorney, but Levy doesn't care at all about justice.

[Melissa P]

Do you know how the books treated their relationship?

Also, wasn't Burr's (who also did Ironside) orientation "buried" until after his death?

[Steve Timko]

Raymond Burr auditioned for the part of the district attorney. He was clearly the better Perry Mason.

https://youtu.be/jv22BnAMJUg

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[PGage]

Maybe Tom means Perry and Della have the equivalent of a 1950s TV marriage relationship. They clearly are not married characters. Maybe sophisticated adults at the time assumed they were doing it off camera, but if so they would have been making that assumption about an unmarried couple.

Burr (born in Canada, but grew up in Vallejo, where I now work) had a longtime companion. Of course his homosexuality was not acknowledged publicly, but my understanding is that his close friends and work associates knew or assumed he was gay or bisexual. The reason I wonder if this impacted how Perry was presented on screen is just if the producers just wanted to keep the focus off his romantic life. But more likely is that, like later TV procedurals, Perry Mason keeps the focus on the specifics of the week’s mystery, not on personal back stories of the characters.

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[Diner]

I read a couple dozen of the Gardner novels when I was a teenager in the early 1980s, even though I had watched very little of the tv series at that point. They were interesting (especially the early novels from the 1930s), but the formula became numbing after a while. At first I didn't mind. Then one day I was reading Ellery Queen's Mystery Magazine and read a column where a critic called Gardner "the king of the time-killers" and realized he was right. I never read one of the books again.

My recollection from the books is that in one of the early novels there was a backstory: shortly after Perry hired her, he proposed marriage out of the blue, but she laughed him off, and the subject was never brought up again.

As far as TV, the most interesting piece of evidence is one of the better telemovies, 1987's "The Case of the Lost Love," in which Perry's old flame (Jean Simmons) hires him when her husband (Gene Barry) gets arrested for murder. There's a scene about halfway through where Simmons visits Perry's office and has to wait with Della before he's available. "You never got married?" says Simmons; no, no, says Della with a smile, never did. Simmons says "What about you and Perry?" Della looks uncomfortable for a few seconds, says well, um... then Perry opens the door and interrupts them. The subject never gets brought up again.

My concern about the new series is that the initial press releases make it sound like they're changing Perry from a lawyer to a private eye, thus changing the whole nature of the character. If that's what happens, I will be seriously disappointed.

[Dave Sikula]

The most interesting thing to me about that clip is that it makes total sense. Up until "Perry Mason." with the possible exception of "Godzilla," Burr was one of Hollywood's most threatening heavies; so why not cast a guy like that as the opposing council?

That said, there's something about Burr's sheer forthright bulk that's usually menacing, but which works perfectly for the tenacious and obsessive Mason.

--Dave Sikula

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 11:24:31 AM UTC-7, Steve Timko wrote:

Raymond Burr auditioned for the part of the district attorney. He was clearly the better Perry Mason.

https://youtu.be/jv22BnAMJUg

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 8:28 AM Melissa P <takingu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you know how the books treated their relationship?

Also, wasn't Burr's (who also did Ironside) orientation "buried" until after his death?

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:12 AM Tom Wolper <two...@gmail.com> wrote:

Perry's relationship with Della on the show is simple: they are an old married couple with no hint of marriage or sex. Code era movies had ways of letting mature viewers know that characters had sex while leaving the young or naive unaware and that's not present at all in the series. It's hard to relate to a modern context because it doesn't exist in a modern context. They are an exclusive couple with no physical touch. And I don't think it has anything to do with Burr's orientation. If that hadn't been completely buried during the run of the show the sponsors would have fled and the show would have been canceled.

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[Dave Sikula]

Now that I've actually watched the trailer, let me (not surprisingly) dissent. I'm very disappointed in it, from the casting (are American actors no longer allowed to play Americans?) to the color scheme (I am so frigging tired of the blue filter that's applied to -everything- nowadays) and the apparent re-conception of Mason as a hard-boiled dick.

The casting--with the exception of Rhys--seems okay (I'm not as in love with Maslany as everyone else seems to be, but that's a matter of taste) and the art direction seems properly period. If the intention is to give Mason an unnecessary backstory ("Criminals are a cowardly, superstitious lot, so I shall become ... a defense attorney!"), it might be tolerable.

I'll watch it--at least the first episode--because it ticks a lot of boxes for me. Last night, we saw the trailer for the next season of "Penny Dreadful" and I mentioned to my wife that I'd be watching it. She asked why (because it does look pretty bad), and I said that I'm a sucker for crime stories set in pre-war Los Angeles and it stars Nathan Lane.

Those are not selling points for her ...

--Dave Sikula

[Tom Wolper]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:28 AM Melissa P <takingup...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you know how the books treated their relationship?

Also, wasn't Burr's (who also did Ironside) orientation "buried" until after his death?

I can't speak to how the books handled the relationship over the years because I didn't read enough of them. The heroes of crime stories of that era did not engage in intimate relationships outside of marriage. Pulp writers had ways of hinting at it but I don't know if Gardner used those hints.

Burr started in Hollywood late in the studio system and the PR department took over his biography. Whatever Burr shared with colleagues, I don't think anything was made public. The first time I read that Burr was gay was in an interview with a gay film scholar. He said that Burr always told reporters that he had been married but his wife had died. While that made it into all the profile articles no reporter ever followed up by asking his late wife's name or how she died. I later went to Wikipedia to see what was mentioned and what I found there was most interesting. When they went to verifiable sources for the details of his life, the sources were PR departments, and the information they provided was all over the place and contradictory. Things that were generally known about him and were never questioned, like his service record, were completely made up.

[Dave Sikula]

Well, now that the official official trailer is out, I can say it somehow looks even more dismal.

Take away the character's name, and there's nothing in it to separate this low-rent dick from a couple of dozen other Marlowe wannabes. I'll watch it because (despite the best attempts of Penny Dreadful: City of Angels to kill the genre with its heaping gobs of rancid stupidity, gimcrack mysticism, and a lead actress with the range of a fire hydrant) I'm still a sucker for pre-War LA crime stories.

YMMV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNATvJMPZaA

--Dave Sikula

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 4:32:05 AM UTC-7, Steve Timko wrote:

[Tom Wolper]

On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 3:41 AM 'Dave Sikula' via TVorNotTV <tvor...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Well, now that the official official trailer is out, I can say it somehow looks even more dismal.

Take away the character's name, and there's nothing in it to separate this low-rent dick from a couple of dozen other Marlowe wannabes. I'll watch it because (despite the best attempts of Penny Dreadful: City of Angels to kill the genre with its heaping gobs of rancid stupidity, gimcrack mysticism, and a lead actress with the range of a fire hydrant) I'm still a sucker for pre-War LA crime stories.

YMMV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNATvJMPZaA

Mason is a detective in this according to the trailer. Which means it will have only the name and possibly the theme music from legacy Perry Mason. So I can ignore it blissfully. The only shame is I watched Anatomy of a Murder a few days ago and it shows how compelling a courtroom drama could be right now.

[Dave Sikula]

Based on the profile of Rhys in Sunday's NY Times, it looks like it's an origin story: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/arts/television/matthew-rhys-perry-mason.html?searchResultPosition=1

I fully expect that in the final episode, Mason will be sitting in a dark study, opining that criminals are a cowardly, superstitious lot just before Professor Kingsfield flies through the window.

--Dave Sikula

[Jon Delfin]

On Mon, Jun 1, 2020, 8:49 PM 'Dave Sikula' via TVorNotTV <tvor...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Based on the profile of Rhys in Sunday's NY Times, it looks like it's an origin story: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/arts/television/matthew-rhys-perry-mason.html?searchResultPosition=1

I fully expect that in the final episode, Mason will be sitting in a dark study, opining that criminals are a cowardly, superstitious lot just before Professor Kingsfield flies through the window.

Which reminds me (and almost certainly only me) of a comics trivia special that aired in the '60s. One of the questions showed that panel, and the celebs had to guess what the blanked-out dialogue box said. Jack Douglas's answer: "Oh boy, now I can go to the orphans' picnic!"

I recall very little of my childhood, but somehow, that stuck.  

[Steve Timko]

An unscientific survey of people on my Facebook timeline shows they declare it a hit.

The most common comment is that it compares to "Carnavale." I have not seen that show so I can't comment.

One Facebook friend said it compares to "The Wire" and "The Sopranos." Seems unlikely, but it is being praised.

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[Dave Sikula]

I must say that, despite my apparently being the only person who doesn't think Tatiana Maslany is all that or even that good (her vocal technique is non-existent, among other flaws), this week's episode was the first really good one. It was coherent, interesting, and had an ending I didn't see coming at all.

--Dave Sikula

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 9:24:43 PM UTC-7, Steve Timko wrote:

An unscientific survey of people on my Facebook timeline shows they declare it a hit.

The most common comment is that it compares to "Carnavale." I have not seen that show so I can't comment.

One Facebook friend said it compares to "The Wire" and "The Sopranos." Seems unlikely, but it is being praised.

On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 7:26 PM Jon Delfin <jond...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Jun 1, 2020, 8:49 PM 'Dave Sikula' via TVorNotTV <tvor...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Based on the profile of Rhys in Sunday's NY Times, it looks like it's an origin story: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/arts/television/matthew-rhys-perry-mason.html?searchResultPosition=1

I fully expect that in the final episode, Mason will be sitting in a dark study, opining that criminals are a cowardly, superstitious lot just before Professor Kingsfield flies through the window.

Which reminds me (and almost certainly only me) of a comics trivia special that aired in the '60s. One of the questions showed that panel, and the celebs had to guess what the blanked-out dialogue box said. Jack Douglas's answer: "Oh boy, now I can go to the orphans' picnic!"

I recall very little of my childhood, but somehow, that stuck.  

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[Mark Jeffries]

Meanwhile, HBO has renewed "Perry Mason:  The Skinny Years" for a second season:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/perry-mason-renewed-season-2-at-hbo-1303980

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[PGage]

I have just caught up on Mason over the last 5 days. There is a lot I like about it (unlike Dave I really like Rhys, and don’t care about keeping American actors employed). There is the obvious problem - that there is no reason to call this Perry Mason. Okay, it’s an origin story, but I would have found it more convincing if he had been bitten by a radioactive lawyer and transformed into an attorney. 

My main disappointment is that, unlike most golden age TV drama, the dialogue is particularly undistinguished. This is not The one of Chase, or Milch, or Simon, or Sorkin, or Weiner, or Gilligan, or Yost. This is particularly disappointing because there may be no genre better suited to snappy, memorable dialogue than noir, so what gives?

I suppose if this series runs ten seasons like the Burr version, and for the last 9 Perry is a stalwart member of the SoCal legal community, sober and serious but taking the side of the wrongly accused in between cashing fat checks from corporate clients, we will be closer to a reimagined Perry Mason than the mostly unrecognizable confection we have been given so far, and I guess the time period is consistent with the early novels. But even if, I am not yet persuaded that the origin story part of this is worth it, or adds that much to the character. He used to be cynical, slovenly, corner cutting and suffering from WWI PTSD, now he is caring, meticulous, successful and straight. I think they could have communicated that in half of one episode, not an entire season.

Or, put it this way: either the backstory is important to the HBO Mason, and then it has little in common with the original TV or novel Mason, or it winds up not being important, and then it is not necessary.

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[Kevin M.]

I only last week learned we have been paying for the HBO app, so this week I watched WW84* and started their Perry Mason. It’s a decent enough story so far, but there is zero relationship between it and the Perry Mason TV series of old. Also, every ethnic and cultural stereotype seems to be used to such an extent I’m surprised some progressive media watchdog didn’t lodge a complaint. 

*the entire WW84 movie was a long setup for the scene that plays midway through the closing credits 

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[daves...@gmail.com]

Well, to be fair, Mason wasn't trying to have a relationship with the TV series. I don't know why we needed an origin story for him, but I'd imagine that the name recognition with the current audience is minimal at best, so why not reboot everything? (Even that ignores the question of, if the IP is that poorly known, why do it in the first place?)

I'd imagine that, if we see a second season, it'll adhere more closely to Gardner's formula, with some of the twists introduced in this version. The client introduced at the end is something of an indication of that.

As I've said, I hated it until -that- death, then thought it took off like a rocket.

As for WW, anyone who's seen my posts on FB is aware of how useless and needless I thought it was. If, indeed, it's a set-up for the mid-credits scene, it's typical of Warners/DC to take the better part of 150 minutes to arrive at such a feeble payoff. Even given my contempt for you-know-who as the Cheetah, while she didn't even try to devise a character outside the lines of her SNL skits, I don't think Barbara Stanwyck could have done anything with that script. Not having watched GoT, I had no idea who Pascal was, and consider myself lucky, if that's an indication of his dubious talents. (Of course, other than Rigg and Dinklage, I've yet to see anyone who was on that show who's been even competent in anything else.) I guess I did see him in The Mandalorian, but it's probably for the best he was masked in that one.

The one good thing I can say for WW is that it was better than First Cow, but that's a microscopically-low bar.

--Dave Sikula

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[Marti Lawrence]

Once you have seen the entire series, the connection will become more obvious. I enjoyed the reboot as an origin story and look forward to the next season.

~Marti