Holes in the Vintage Drama Stream

[PGage]

It might seem like you can stream almost any old TV show, but there actually are a lot that are not available, even when they are available on DVD. Does anyone here know why that is?

I can stream Mission Impossible and Perry Mason, and of course Twilight Zone, but not Mannix or Barnaby Jones or Cannon, nor The Fugitive or, one of my favorite shows from back in the day, Harry O. 

I’m contemplating getting some of these on DVD (I have not purchased TV DVDs since I made the decision to spend my TV money on streaming rather than disks back when Netflix first started charging separately to stream), but don’t want to do that if something is likely to change relatively soon. 

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[Steve Timko]

Some of those older shows hold up well. "The Rockford Files" is still good. I'm not elevating "Gunsmoke" to literature, but the plots were sometimes nuanced. I couldn't watch the first 10 minutes of the show and tell you exactly how it was going to go. Well, except that Marshal Dillon would ride in at the end and make everything good.

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[Joe Hass]

I will tell you, point blank: buy the DVDs, and I'll help you get things set up to rip them to MP4s and set up a home server. Best choice you'll ever make.

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[PGage]

Rockford and Gunsmoke (selected episodes at least) are available to stream on Peacock and CBS Access, respectively).

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[Adam Bowie]

From what I can gather it's simply money. Most of the streaming services disproportionately target young audiences - so you find few shows made before 2000 on them. That may be slightly different with something like CBS All Access or Peacock which are owned by networks and may have their own wares to throw on at little cost. But even then, there may be residuals due. And of course just because a show aired on NBC doesn't mean they own it. Why nobody has Homicide: Life on the Streets available, I don't know.

I think it's simply a choice they make. And older stuff tends to get missed out. It does frustrate me that many people will only watch a movie if it's on Netflix or Amazon. Most films aren't on those channels or their ilk. Indeed, amazingly, many films aren't even on the rental sites like Apple or Google Play. 

Personally I would be utterly lost without discs. I still buy them because the picture quality is better (all the streamers crush the picture compared to say Blu Ray), there are extras that you rarely find on streaming, and most importantly, I know I'll have access to them this time next week or next year. Stuff comes and goes, and I'm not playing that game. So yes, I have the Homicide boxset - the US version that looks like a filing cabinet!

I'd love to rip my DVD/BR collection, but that feels like a very long term project from where I'm sitting - short of getting a bank of computers and fast DVD drives!

Adam

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[Kevin M.]

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 1:52 PM Joe Hass <hassg...@gmail.com> wrote:

I will tell you, point blank: buy the DVDs, and I'll help you get things set up to rip them to MP4s and set up a home server. Best choice you'll ever make.

Handbrake is a lovely piece of Freeware (although admittedly it works better on Windows based computers as opposed to Macs) for ripping DVDs. And I wholeheartedly agree with those who recommend this route as opposed to streaming. 

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 3:31 PM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote:

It might seem like you can stream almost any old TV show, but there actually are a lot that are not available, even when they are available on DVD. Does anyone here know why that is?

I can stream Mission Impossible and Perry Mason, and of course Twilight Zone, but not Mannix or Barnaby Jones or Cannon, nor The Fugitive or, one of my favorite shows from back in the day, Harry O. 

I’m contemplating getting some of these on DVD (I have not purchased TV DVDs since I made the decision to spend my TV money on streaming rather than disks back when Netflix first started charging separately to stream), but don’t want to do that if something is likely to change relatively soon. 

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Kevin M. (RPCV)

[Joe Hass]

Just do a box-set a weekend. Start it, set your timer to remind you to check on it in 30 minutes, go do something else. You'd be surprised how you can get through them.

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[Doug Eastick]

Sounds like this group needs a betamax exchange program.

(I.e. Shared Plex server, lol)

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[Dave Sikula]

Most of these are, of course, available on the vintage TV channels like Me TV and Decades, but I understand the difference between that and streaming--and, of course, the broadcast outlets have their own issues (more time needed for commercials, refusal to adhere to proper aspect ratios [I had to stop watching "Bret Maverick" because of that]). The one that galls me is "Homicide," which (despite airing somewhere a few years ago--and more recently, in Spanish) apparently has so many competing rights holders that DVD is the only way to see it currently.

--Dave Sikula

[PGage]

So, you are suggesting it would cost Hulu or Amazon more in Rights and residual fees than the value they would get from new or retained subscribers. I considered that, but then, how do the economics work for DVD sales?  The complete set for The Fugitive (4 Seasons, 120 episodes, 32 discs) costs $45.50 on Amazon. It seems like they could find a price point for the Steaming Rights for that show that would result in at least as many views on Hulu as box sets sold. I guess Hulu does really make money from views, but still it seems like The Fugitive would provide better filler content at a lower price than a lot of the other crap I currently see on Hulu. Not to mention, if I’m Hulu (or whatever) it seems I could carve out a pretty lucrative niche marketing myself to aging Boomers as the home of TV content of their youth, maybe something like a “Quinn Martin Collection”.

OTOH, while I do have a fair number of TV box sets from pre 2010 or so (including my prize possession, the West Wing set in the Blue White House Box), I am not convinced that route makes economic ,ic sense for me Anymore, especially for B and C level material. Even a bargain like The Fugitive represents about 4 months of Hulu, which gives me access to so many more hours and variety of content, and allows my three grown children, each in different geographical locations than me (in non-COVID conditions) to access it as well. I would rather have Hulu for a year than 3 QM box sets.

That said, that price for The Fugitive Box set is looking better and better to me. Unlike the 2 seasons of Harry O, which come to about $90). 

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[Jim Ellwanger]

It appears that Viacom/CBS owns the Quinn Martin library, so if those were going to stream anywhere, I'd expect it to be CBS All Access. Maybe when they "relaunch" in 2021, those shows will be part of the content. Or maybe not -- there's no real indication that they're adding any amount of older programming in recent articles such as this: https://www.indiewire.com/2020/07/cbs-all-access-to-relaunch-acquires-spongebob-prequel-1234577255/

Similarly, it appears that Warner Bros. owns the rights to "Harry O," so... HBO Max? Probably don't hold your breath for that one.

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[Kevin M.]

iTunes used to have a better selection of “classics” which I how I got both Maverick and Bret Maverick for next to nothing. I’m still confused that the iTunes Store in my Mac has more subcategories and options than on my iPad... you’d think the mobile devices cud how most people seek out media, but then many of Apple’s decisions post-Jobs have been baffling. 

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Kevin M. (RPCV)

[PGage]

Something like HLOTS is premium enough to me that it is worth buying and owning the discs. I have watched some of the vintage shows on things like Me TV, but one thing streaming in particular has done to me is left me almost unable to tolerate commercials. I have been putting up with them, barely, to watch Rockford episodes in order and on my demand on the horrible Peacock platform (even the premium version has many unskipable  commercials each hour). But I’m not sitting through commercials to nostalgia watch Barnaby Jones (who am I kidding? Lee Meriwether). 

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[PGage]

How could I expect CBS Access to make room for Cannon when they have premium content like Real Husbands of Hollywood to stream?

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 10:17 PM Jim Ellwanger <trai...@ellwanger.tv> wrote:

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[Tom Wolper]

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 2:03 AM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote:

How could I expect CBS Access to make room for Cannon when they have premium content like Real Husbands of Hollywood to stream?

I came upon this exchange on Twitter this morning. The question was why isn't the original Muppet Show available on Disney+? To me that's the highest value marriage of legacy content and streaming platform. The answer was that media companies and estates' representatives have lobbied for their own advantages on copyright law until it has become an abyss from which some old shows will never emerge.

I bought the Muppet Show DVD box sets when they came out. The second season came out soon enough after the first season and the third season took much longer to come out. I'm still waiting for a fourth and fifth season; when I went to DVD and Muppet forums for updates they said that acquiring rights had made it not worthwhile to continue the series. I just looked at Wikipedia to assist my memory and I see that half a dozen songs were cut from shows in the first season DVD set.

[PGage]

Addendum...

I am pulling the trigger on The Fugitive Box set @ $45.49, after seeing used sets being sold for up to 50% more on some sites.

On Amazon, Mannix S1-4 costs $24.51, while the complete box set for all 8 seasons is going for $75. According to the Wikis, roughly same number of episodes in each season. Are they charging a premium for completists? Are their cool bonus features on the complete set (Amazon is mute)?

It does look like season 5 was the highest rated of the entire series, though in my memory the last two or thee seasons are a significant downgrade.

Also, while single seasons 1-4 are ~ $10 each, the price goes up for single seasons 5-8, up to ~ $38/season for S6 & 7, then dropping to $21 for S8.

Update: digging into comments section on Amazon, looks like there were “lost episodes” of Mannix that never made it to syndication, including S1 (after which Lucille Ball made some changes) and S7-8. Doesn’t exactly explain why S6 is so expensive.

I may get the S1-4 set, which looks to be a bargain, but what if I start jonesing for the rest and have to buy the S1-8 box (cheaper than adding the remaining single seasons)?

And now I remember another reason I stopped buying TV on DVD...

[PGage]

Addendum #2: I am really down the rabbit hole now. Apparently early DVD sets of the Fugitive contained technical errors and replaced original music with generic synthesizer stuff, causing much outrage among the fandom. They then put out a “Fugitive: Most Wanted” Box set that was supposed to fix these problems, but apparently did not. This set costs $159! On Amazon. But the $45.49 set is described as being an even more recent set, with all technical and music problems fixed. This now seems too good to be true, so probably is not true. I bought it anyway, because now I am curious, and prepared to demand a refund if unsatisfied.

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 7:46 AM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote:

Addendum...

I am pulling the trigger on The Fugitive Box set @ $45.49, after seeing used sets being sold for up to 50% more on some sites.

On Amazon, Mannix S1-4 costs $24.51, while the complete box set for all 8 seasons is going for $75. According to the Wikis, roughly same number of episodes in each season. Are they charging a premium for completists? Are their cool bonus features on the complete set (Amazon is mute)?

It does look like season 5 was the highest rated of the entire series, though in my memory the last two or thee seasons are a significant downgrade.

Also, while single seasons 1-4 are ~ $10 each, the price goes up for single seasons 5-8, up to ~ $38/season for S6 & 7, then dropping to $21 for S8.

Update: digging into comments section on Amazon, looks like there were “lost episodes” of Mannix that never made it to syndication, including S1 (after which Lucille Ball made some changes) and S7-8. Doesn’t exactly explain why S6 is so expensive.

I may get the S1-4 set, which looks to be a bargain, but what if I start jonesing for the rest and have to buy the S1-8 box (cheaper than adding the remaining single seasons)?

And now I remember another reason I stopped buying TV on DVD...

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[Kevin M.]

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 8:01 AM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote:

Addendum #2: I am really down the rabbit hole now. Apparently early DVD sets of the Fugitive contained technical errors and replaced original music with generic synthesizer stuff, causing much outrage among the fandom. They then put out a “Fugitive: Most Wanted” Box set that was supposed to fix these problems, but apparently did not. This set costs $159! On Amazon. But the $45.49 set is described as being an even more recent set, with all technical and music problems fixed. This now seems too good to be true, so probably is not true. I bought it anyway, because now I am curious, and prepared to demand a refund if unsatisfied.

Music licensing is a plague on DVD and online releases. As complete as the DVDs for Homicide Life on the Street tried to be, several pieces of music were omitted. And of course WKRP was notoriously chopped up. Whole seasons of Married With Children didn’t even bother to clear the theme song, let alone “We Are The Champions” which was used throughout the series. 

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 7:46 AM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote:

Addendum...

I am pulling the trigger on The Fugitive Box set @ $45.49, after seeing used sets being sold for up to 50% more on some sites.

On Amazon, Mannix S1-4 costs $24.51, while the complete box set for all 8 seasons is going for $75. According to the Wikis, roughly same number of episodes in each season. Are they charging a premium for completists? Are their cool bonus features on the complete set (Amazon is mute)?

It does look like season 5 was the highest rated of the entire series, though in my memory the last two or thee seasons are a significant downgrade.

Also, while single seasons 1-4 are ~ $10 each, the price goes up for single seasons 5-8, up to ~ $38/season for S6 & 7, then dropping to $21 for S8.

Update: digging into comments section on Amazon, looks like there were “lost episodes” of Mannix that never made it to syndication, including S1 (after which Lucille Ball made some changes) and S7-8. Doesn’t exactly explain why S6 is so expensive.

I may get the S1-4 set, which looks to be a bargain, but what if I start jonesing for the rest and have to buy the S1-8 box (cheaper than adding the remaining single seasons)?

And now I remember another reason I stopped buying TV on DVD...

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[Adam Bowie]

There are always these deep rabbit holes you get into when you're looking for the ultimate version of a show. Which version of Buffy The Vampire Slayer should you go for? (Fox famously "remastered" this in HD re-cropping to 16:9 without any care (crew members can be seen in shot), and not properly colour-correcting for things like when they shot day for night. Why can't get I get DS9 on Blu Ray? (Because...) What has happened to the music in Northern Exposure? (It was expensive...)

I was reading some stuff about this recently when I came across a piece noting that Law & Order does not appear in its totality on Peacock. I ended up reading about music licensing on WKRP in Cincinnati, and The Wonder Years (https://www.vox.com/2014/11/3/7145231/shows-not-on-dvd-music-rights-wonder-years-wkrp) and a four year-old piece bemoaning the very subject we're discussing now (https://www.vulture.com/2016/11/why-cant-these-shows-be-found-on-streaming.html). 

Personally I'm mulling whether I should spend £80 on the complete Miami Vice on Blu Ray. It even has all its original music! It's not any UK-versions of streaming services, and the only places I can find it for digital purchase only have SD versions.

Adam

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[Jim Ellwanger]

> On Aug 2, 2020, at 9:38 AM, Kevin M. <drunkba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Music licensing is a plague on DVD and online releases. As complete as the DVDs for Homicide Life on the Street tried to be, several pieces of music were omitted. And of course WKRP was notoriously chopped up. Whole seasons of Married With Children didn’t even bother to clear the theme song, let alone “We Are The Champions” which was used throughout the series.

They did a pretty good job with the Shout! Factory DVD release of “WKRP” from a couple years ago, which I watched all the way through earlier in the pandemic — they managed to re-license a decent majority of the original tracks, and I could really only detect a couple places where the music was replaced. (Unfortunately, one of those is in the Thanksgiving episode, probably the one that will be rewatched most often — in a scene in which Mr. Carlson holds up a copy of Pink Floyd’s “Animals” album and asks Johnny Fever, “Are those dogs barking?”, the music playing does include dogs barking, but it’s clearly not the Pink Floyd song “Dogs.”)