#GOTSODARK

PGage

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May 1, 2019, 10:20:54 AM5/1/19

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The dim lighting used in much of prestige television has been one of my major irritations in recent years. Nowhere was that more evident than in the most recent, otherwise fairly epic (though I know there are contrarians) GOT episode. I have not been sure if the dark was a pseudo-artistic pretension or a cover for other technical problems. The linked article provides evidence it is both. The CGI In this action packed, stunt heavy, monster laden episode may have looked too clunky in adequate light. But cinematographer Fabian Wagner’s Hyper defensive explanations confirm my worst fears about this trend. There is literally no reason they could not have had both the drama of the Dothraki riding into the dark, or the various light changes to mark the different stages of the episode and still have adequately lit most of it. And his blaming viewers for not having state of the art equipment and theater conditions is both outrageous and inaccurate (I watched in the dark with a properly adjusted digital TV). The second act, which they wanted to feel like a horror film, was undermined, because half the time the viewer is left not in suspense or fear, but confusion. It’s a shame, because I did like the episode, and by all accounts it was a long, cold and brutal shoot for actors and crew. Their work deserved to be served better by the cinematographer, who instead indulged his own ego.

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/04/game-of-thrones-cinematographer-show-too-dark-battle-winterfell-1202129682/

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Adam Bowie

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May 1, 2019, 12:20:33 PM5/1/19

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I suspect that there are a number of issues here.

One is compression and re-compression. HBO distributes the show to its partners globally, and probably in a fairly high definition version. But the local carrier than re-compresses that for delivery to homes. Different carriers do very different things. I think it can be particularly bad if you're watching a streamed version of a video - and especially if it's live. The compression algorithms are just set to work "averagely" and that can lead to bad compression.

I watched a recorded-as-live version from Sky in the UK in HD and there was lots of blockiness in the dark scenes. Sky's picture is decent, but they compress too much. I remember seeing the same years ago watching Das Boot on DVD with submarines floating around in murky waters. Compression just does a really bad job unless someone spends a lot of time doing it well. When the BluRays of GOT come out (I've been buying them all), the picture will undoubtedly look better.

I think that as well as for artistic reasons, they chose darkness to cover up CGI issues. Since this was such a CGI-heavy episode that in full brightness I suspect that it wouldn't look as good. But add darkness and a snowstorm, and you hide a lot of the joins.

But this was definitely a dark episode. I watched in a darkened room with the curtains drawn and didn't have too many problems. I could see what was happening when I was supposed to. I think some sections, they were trying to convey confusion in the heat of war. I have a circa 2012 Samsung TV - so nothing too high end. I definitely wouldn't want to watch on a shiny laptop screen or an iPad. But yes, this would look awesome on an OLED screen. But those screens are four figures.

The sound, by the way, is exceptional. If you have a separates system, it really makes a difference. I invested in a Denon Atmos enabled receiver a few months ago, and I can feel the room shake!

Adam

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Tom Wolper

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May 1, 2019, 12:54:05 PM5/1/19

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On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 12:20 PM Adam Bowie <ad...@adambowie.co.uk> wrote:

I suspect that there are a number of issues here.

One is compression and re-compression. HBO distributes the show to its partners globally, and probably in a fairly high definition version. But the local carrier than re-compresses that for delivery to homes. Different carriers do very different things. I think it can be particularly bad if you're watching a streamed version of a video - and especially if it's live. The compression algorithms are just set to work "averagely" and that can lead to bad compression.

I watched a recorded-as-live version from Sky in the UK in HD and there was lots of blockiness in the dark scenes. Sky's picture is decent, but they compress too much. I remember seeing the same years ago watching Das Boot on DVD with submarines floating around in murky waters. Compression just does a really bad job unless someone spends a lot of time doing it well. When the BluRays of GOT come out (I've been buying them all), the picture will undoubtedly look better.

I think that as well as for artistic reasons, they chose darkness to cover up CGI issues. Since this was such a CGI-heavy episode that in full brightness I suspect that it wouldn't look as good. But add darkness and a snowstorm, and you hide a lot of the joins.

But this was definitely a dark episode. I watched in a darkened room with the curtains drawn and didn't have too many problems. I could see what was happening when I was supposed to. I think some sections, they were trying to convey confusion in the heat of war. I have a circa 2012 Samsung TV - so nothing too high end. I definitely wouldn't want to watch on a shiny laptop screen or an iPad. But yes, this would look awesome on an OLED screen. But those screens are four figures.

The sound, by the way, is exceptional. If you have a separates system, it really makes a difference. I invested in a Denon Atmos enabled receiver a few months ago, and I can feel the room shake!

I read a comment on Monday from someone who thought the battle as shown on HBO was too dark due to compression and switched to watching a streamed version from HBO Go cast to his TV. He said the picture was much better and he had no trouble following what was happening.

PGage

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May 1, 2019, 2:07:12 PM5/1/19

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I have read about the compression issues. Two things about that: 1) I watched on my TV, streaming HBOGO via my FireTV. Not sure if that is better or worse than other options. 2) while I don’t expect producers to make tv optimized for streaming on an IPhone, I do think they should deliver a product that can be enjoyed by a standard user. If a significant percentage of viewers could not see what they are supposed to be seeing, that is a production fail, and it is unseemly for the cinematographer to blame unsophisticated viewers.

I know there were portions of the middle part that were supposed to be confusing and hard to see; but the impact of that is lost when so much of what we are supposed to see is equally confusing and opaque.

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Kevin M.

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May 1, 2019, 3:07:15 PM5/1/19

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The cinematographer defended his work. One of the Rifftrax/MST3k guys responded.

https://twitter.com/billcorbett/status/1123353896406192128?s=21

Kevin M. (RPCV)

Adam Bowie

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May 1, 2019, 3:36:22 PM5/1/19

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On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 7:07 PM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have read about the compression issues. Two things about that: 1) I watched on my TV, streaming HBOGO via my FireTV. Not sure if that is better or worse than other options.

Streaming is *probably* worse than broadcast, although it really depends what bitrate your local provider uses. All HD is not equal. A BluRay disc can deliver video at up to 40 Mbps, whereas a streaming service might top out at 7 Mbps, but will almost certainly be lower. That said, HBO via Amazon Prime is said to be one of the better streaming options from what I read.

Dark images are just hard to encode - especially live. If you have source material to encode in a non-linear environment, you can spend more time encoding the picture to deliver better quality. So watching on-demand might be better than watching live through the same delivery system. And the speed available at the time you're watching matters too. I've read that Netflix encodes their shows in 50 different formats to provide the best version it can to a subscriber dependent on bandwidth available. You can do that if you have the show in advance. You can't if you're working live.

2) while I don’t expect producers to make tv optimized for streaming on an IPhone, I do think they should deliver a product that can be enjoyed by a standard user. If a significant percentage of viewers could not see what they are supposed to be seeing, that is a production fail, and it is unseemly for the cinematographer to blame unsophisticated viewers.

For me the picture was dark, but not impossible to see. I don't have the brightness cranked up to shop-floor levels (TVs in stores are put into a ridiculously super-bright mode to make you pick them). I tend to use a "movie" mode for my viewing, although I did spend a lot of time tweaking it to my tastes. Turning off all that awful motion smoothing stuff that nearly every manufacturer leaves on by default. I also turn off digital noise reduction which can lead to some awful smoothing/smeariness in the image. Personally I don't like all those adaptive settings much either. They mess around with the blacks on your screen depending on how bright the rest of the image is.

Adam

Kevin M.

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May 1, 2019, 4:38:49 PM5/1/19

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Game of Thrones fans are, frankly, among the easiest to annoy. I’m not a fan of the fantasy genre in general or I’d probably like the series, but since I’m not I try to avoid it. This week it was impossible to avoid, and if the trend continues for the next few episodes, I will have to up the ante on the level of sarcasm in my rebuttals.

That said, in every edit suite I’ve ever seen, there is always really expensive, high quality audio and video gear. But in the really good edit suites, there was always a dirt cheap monitor and a pair of dirt cheap speakers next to the good stuff, because not everybody has the ideal A/V products, so good editors need to view the finished product in the worst possible environment because if it works there, it’ll work anywhere. It has been several years since I last set foot in an edit bay, and I’m now curious whether that practice still occurs.

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Kevin M. (RPCV)

PGage

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May 6, 2019, 9:21:09 AM5/6/19

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Waiting for the GOT Cinematographer to defend this...

https://twitter.com/slippish/status/1125290618530304000?s=21

Brad Beam

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May 6, 2019, 12:52:15 PM5/6/19

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My guess: "You weren't supposed to see that."

Sent from my iPhone

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Tom Wolper

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May 6, 2019, 2:19:36 PM5/6/19

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On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 12:52 PM Brad Beam <b.b...@suddenlink.net> wrote:

My guess: "You weren't supposed to see that."

As someone else tweeted, I really want to see how they spelled "Daenerys."

Doug Eastick

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May 6, 2019, 4:43:49 PM5/6/19

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not related to original topic, but a member of my family had a Brush With Greatness this weekend. The actor who plays Jaime Lannister on GoT is working in our town on a movie shoot. The actor came into said relatives place of work for instruction on a certain recreational sport, and said relative gave the actor one-on-one training and instruction for 2 hours. Very cool and nice guy.