A Parks and Rec reunion

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JW

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Apr 24, 2020, 7:07:09 AM4/24/20
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PGage

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Apr 24, 2020, 9:46:45 AM4/24/20
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There is very little else I care more about...

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 4:07 AM JW <redb...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Adam Bowie

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Apr 24, 2020, 10:13:12 AM4/24/20
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On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:46 PM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote:
There is very little else I care more about...

Absolutely!

Dave Sikula

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Apr 25, 2020, 5:31:48 AM4/25/20
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Oh, joy! Yet another chance to avoid supremely annoying characters who all but shout "Look how charmingly wacky I am!" at the camera.

I can't pass by this one hard enough.

--Dave Sikula

JW

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Apr 25, 2020, 6:34:59 AM4/25/20
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>> There is very little else I care more about...
>
> Absolutely!

Then if I let you know, I'm glad to have helped.

PGage

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Apr 25, 2020, 9:49:26 AM4/25/20
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I had been geeking out over it on Twitter, but it made me feel good to see you post it here (and to give Sikula his chance to grouch all over it). So thanks

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Dave Sikula

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Apr 26, 2020, 4:29:03 AM4/26/20
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C'mon; think how full it would be in here if I weren't continually carping about shows I dislike.

Now, that said, after the trainwreck that was the first SNL At Home broadcast, tonight's wasn't half-bad. Maybe it was just that Kenan and Aidy had things to do. I will never get tired of "What's Up With That?" And -that- said, I will always wonder why it is that when the show presents "real people" appearing on television (as with tonight's commercials for the supermarket and the cat place), they always act like they're brain-damaged. Some of that, of course, is due to McKinnon having the range of a fire hydrant, but it must be something that Lorne finds endlessly amusing.

--Dave Sikula

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 6:49:26 AM UTC-7, PGage wrote:
I had been geeking out over it on Twitter, but it made me feel good to see you post it here (and to give Sikula his chance to grouch all over it). So thanks
On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 3:34 AM JW <redb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> There is very little else I care more about...
>
> Absolutely!

Then if I let you know, I'm glad to have helped.

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PGage

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Apr 26, 2020, 12:23:37 PM4/26/20
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I remain impressed with your Disdain for things like Aaron Sorkin and Parks and Recreation, yet consistent  praise if someone like Kenan Thompson, who I find  adequate at best; he is the Jerry Lewis to your France. Still I do enjoy What’s Up With That and was pleased to see them bring it back. I thought their first effort at a quarantine version was impressive in how average it was, and #2 was a step up. I thought their cold open was possibly the best of the Trump era, and not just because (perhaps in spite of) the stunt casting.

I also agree that this format almost forces them to give more downstream cast members more airtime, and mostly that works to their advantage. Though I like Kate McKinnon, and resist your Wiigization of her.

These two shows have reminded me how difficult it is to do a live TV show. Even with the current limitations it seems it is easier to produce a polished output when it is put together from prerecorded (presumably with multiple takes) bits. They seem to be giving themselves two weeks to work on each show, which I think is smart.

SNL has always had pre recorded material. There was a time when they started relying on this more (like the Andy Samberg era) when I balked at the deemphasis on live material. This is making me wonder about that. I’m not sure the “Live TV” element is as special or electric as it once was, and it does introduce a lot of quality limitations. Perhaps they can move to a format where they have something like a live Host monologue, live music, live WU, and maybe one live sketch, and do the rest with pre-produced pieces? 



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Adam Bowie

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Apr 26, 2020, 3:11:45 PM4/26/20
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Since we're laying our cards on the table, is now the time to say that I've never seen an SNL sketch I've liked that couldn't be shortened by two thirds minimum? Probably a half decent 30 minutes show somehow existing in a 90 minute slot? :-)

I guess they can't really drop the L in SNL, but what does "live" really add apart from the danger of someone saying or doing something that's forbidden - even allowing for the hidden hand of the network censor? Yes, there are theatrical skills on display, but I've no real problem with pre-recording, even 24 hours before transmission, and then using the time to tightly edit, and remove gags that don't work. 

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Brad Beam

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Apr 26, 2020, 3:42:44 PM4/26/20
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From: tvor...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tvor...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Bowie

>I guess they can't really drop the L in SNL, but what does "live" really add apart from the danger of someone saying or doing something that's forbidden - even allowing for the hidden hand of the network censor? Yes, there are theatrical skills on display, but I've no real problem with pre-recording, even 24 hours before transmission, and then using the time to tightly edit, and remove gags that don't work. 

 

Adam, you may not be familiar, but SNL debuted in 1975 as “NBC’s Saturday Night”, since ABC debuted a comedy/variety show at 8:00 called “Saturday Night Live with Howard Cosell” several weeks prior (which lasted until January 1976). The “L” was added to NBC’s SN in 1977.

 

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|_>|_>  Brad Beam- Belle WV

|_>|_>  http://www.facebook.com/74bmw

 

Jim Ellwanger

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Apr 26, 2020, 3:47:11 PM4/26/20
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On Apr 26, 2020, at 12:40 PM, Brad Beam <b.b...@suddenlink.net> wrote:


Adam, you may not be familiar, but SNL debuted in 1975 as “NBC’s Saturday Night”, since ABC debuted a comedy/variety show at 8:00 called “Saturday Night Live with Howard Cosell” several weeks prior (which lasted until January 1976). The “L” was added to NBC’s SN in 1977.

And it's specifically live because that fact was originally used as an incentive to get all of NBC's affiliates to air it at the same time. What it replaced on the schedule was a rerun of "The Tonight Show," which a number of affiliates either delayed until later Saturday night, or carried on Sunday night.

That's also why it's 90 minutes in length -- that's how long "The Tonight Show" was in 1975.

Adam Bowie

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Apr 26, 2020, 5:58:39 PM4/26/20
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On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 8:47 PM Jim Ellwanger <trai...@ellwanger.tv> wrote:

That's also why it's 90 minutes in length -- that's how long "The Tonight Show" was in 1975.


Still about 60 minutes too long. And it is 2020 :-)

PGage

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Apr 26, 2020, 7:05:42 PM4/26/20
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Really, I think the length is a strength of the show. Individual sketches often go on way too long (and from the start they have said how much harder it was do tightly edit live shows, vs the gold standard of Python), but the long form of the show has always allowed them to take chances with less safe material in the last half hour (not that these always work). 

Organizations across all sectors are learning things from the shut down that will likely change the way they do business when things get back to “normal”. In my own job I think we are going to be doing a lot more remote sessions even after we move back to the hospital. SNL can keep its “L” by maintaining 3 or 4 live tent poles for a 90 minute show that also has 5-9 pre-recorded elements (as many as 9 because I think with more pre-recorded elements some would be shorter and more tightly edited).

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Dave Sikula

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Apr 27, 2020, 1:35:07 AM4/27/20
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Personal taste in cast members aside, I think the "live" aspect of it is the only thing that's kept the show running--and why it now airs live on the west coast. The nets are desperate to get eyeballs and--for now, anyway--the best way to guarantee that is by going live (hence the ever-increasing reliance on sports).

I think it was John Pankow's character on "Episodes"--a show I really liked and miss--who proposed that everything on his network be live, with no set schedule; that programs could air at any time, in any order, bleeding into and crossing over with each other, with anything--up to and  including actors getting shot on air ("What actor is going to give up a job on a network show if the price is only getting shot?") People would be forced to watch in order not to miss something. That's probably more extreme than anything the real nets would do, but it's not unrealistic in its goal.

I don't mind pre-taped material--I think the 1984-85 season was one of the show's best, and that was packed with filmed stuff--but I don't think the difficulty of creating 90 minutes of material 26 weeks a year is that overwhelming with the right writing staff. Caesar's staffs did, what, 39?, for years, as did every other variety show. Whether they were live or live to tape wasn't much of a distinction.

The biggest problem with SNL (other than certain performers, of course) is that the writing is toothless and predictable, with variations on the same premises week after week and paper-thin political commentary. (I mean, is Baldwin's Trump really anything? Tony Atamanuik's "President Show" was far more devastating on a shoestring budget.) There are occasional gems--which is why I keep watching the show, in vain hope--but, for the most part, the sketches are just stupid, dull, and too long, rather than satirical or even funny. I blame that consistent similarity on Lorne's sense of humor, and assume the writers are working to his tastes, so while a change in that chair might work wonders, given his total stranglehold on NBC's late night lineup, I don't expect that any time soon.

--Dave Sikula

PGage

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Apr 27, 2020, 8:07:23 AM4/27/20
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So, I’m going to push back on this.The fact that you have to go back to Sid Caesar, who last ran a regular live television sketch show 61 years ago, as an example of how not difficult it is to do a live show seems more an argument for my side. 


Plus, Caesar had a team of writers that is to this day unparalleled, including: Mel Brooks, Selma Diamond, Carl Reiner, Neil Simon, Larry Gelbart and Woody Allen (among others who were A-List, if somewhat  less well known today). Cesar himself was a unique comic talent, who was widely credited with transforming and elevating the material he was given. I am not as critical of Lorne Michaels as Dave is, but he is no Sid Caesar, and it is unlikely that any television show since has ever had the writing talent Caesar had to draw on.


Even so, Your Show of Shows and Caesar’s Hour had their share of clunker sketches, some of which went on way too long (though some of the long ones were magical). I have seen a few excerpts in some special they had a long time ago, but my main sources are my mother and grandfather, both of whom were big fans (my grandfathers parents were from a town not far from Caesar’s in Poland). When I talked with them the most about Caesar, mostly in the years after SNL premiered, they both argued loudly that Show of Shows was far superior to SNL, but also allowed that there  were plenty of duds. 


Perhaps more to the point, between his two main series, Caesar did 7 seasons, which even corrected for the greater number of episodes per season is less than 11 seasons worth of content of SNL (and his second series was only an hour). Caesar’s Wikipedia article includes this quote from Mel Brooks: 


“I know of no other comedian, including Chaplin, who could have done nearly ten years of live television. Nobody's talent was ever more used up than Sid's. He was one of the greatest artists ever born. But over a period of years, television ground him into sausages."


SNL has been on for 45 seasons, most of them produced by the same person. One of the ways it has survived as long as it has is by relying on shortcuts, which lead to many of the characteristics Dave cites that make it so often disappointing. Their topical and political humor is often obvious and simplistic. Like a long running improv troupe they have a stock of mad lib type templates that they mix and match and plug hosts and new cast member into. This doesn’t just save work for the writers, but keeps the demands on performing and production within well calibrated parameters that the show knows they can hit every week, even with weak or problem guests.


Most of these problems get solved or are easier to deal with if they add more recorded material. They could take more chances, because they could edit and re-do what doesn’t work. They could be more innovative because they would have more time, and there would be less pressure because they could have some evergreen sketches in the can on reserve. They could have teams of writers and producers, and even cast members, rotating on separate schedules, giving everyone both more time off and more time to work on writing, production and post production. And yet, with a live host “Monologue “, 2-3 musical performances, Weekend Update and maybe a featured sketch, the show would still have the hook of being live that you emphasize. I imagine about 50-60% of the content being pre-recorded.



On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:35 PM 'Dave Sikula' wrote:

Personal taste in cast members aside, I think the "live" aspect of it is the only thing that's kept the show running--and why it now airs live on the west coast. The nets are desperate to get eyeballs and--for now, anyway--the best way to guarantee that is by going live (hence the ever-increasing reliance on sports). 


(Snip) I don't mind pre-taped material--I think the 1984-85 season was one of the show's best, and that was packed with filmed stuff--but I don't think the difficulty of creating 90 minutes of material 26 weeks a year is that overwhelming with the right writing staff. Caesar's staffs did, what, 39?, for years, as did every other variety show. Whether they were live or live to tape wasn't much of a distinction.


The biggest problem with SNL (other than certain performers, of course) is that the writing is toothless and predictable, with variations on the same premises week after week and paper-thin political commentary. (I mean, is Baldwin's Trump really anything? Tony Atamanuik's "President Show" was far more devastating on a shoestring budget.) There are occasional gems--which is why I keep watching the show, in vain hope--but, for the most part, the sketches are just stupid, dull, and too long, rather than satirical or even funny. I blame that consistent similarity on Lorne's sense of humor, and assume the writers are working to his tastes, so while a change in that chair might work wonders, given his total stranglehold on NBC's late night lineup, I don't expect that any time soon.

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Bob Jersey

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May 1, 2020, 3:57:12 PM5/1/20
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On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 7:07:09 AM UTC-4, JW wrote:

Variety columnist Daniel D'Addario noted: "[The special] managed to approximate both something closer to TV-sitcom production values than might have been expected and some of the bonhomie of the original, even with its cast separated."

Not that it was able to tie up all the loose ends...


B

Bob Jersey

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May 1, 2020, 4:04:08 PM5/1/20
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PGage

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May 1, 2020, 5:01:01 PM5/1/20
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Like the Grand Canyon (featured in a scene from the clip show preceding it), the P&R Special was just as great as we expected it to be...

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Dave Sikula

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May 1, 2020, 5:16:27 PM5/1/20
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I assume I can interpret that however I wish ... ?

--Dave Sikula

On Friday, May 1, 2020 at 2:01:01 PM UTC-7, PGage wrote:
Like the Grand Canyon (featured in a scene from the clip show preceding it), the P&R Special was just as great as we expected it to be...
On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 1:04 PM 'Bob Jersey' via TVorNotTV <tvor...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

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PGage

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May 1, 2020, 10:27:55 PM5/1/20
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Exactly...

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Kevin M.

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May 1, 2020, 10:44:28 PM5/1/20
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NBC posted it free on YouTube


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Doug Eastick

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May 2, 2020, 12:44:19 AM5/2/20
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fyi - that link not available in Canada.
thus I must refer to adverts in the back of magazines for betamax dubs.

and yes, I know I pay taxes for healthcare which I am grateful for.


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Mark Jeffries

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May 2, 2020, 12:49:33 AM5/2/20
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And also, it should be pointed out that "Your Show of Shows" in particular had a lot more non-comedy material each week than "SNL," even considering that the former had less commercial time than "SNL" has ever had, being a late-night show.  Caesar & Co. rarely did two sketches back-to-back, even if separated by commercials, since the show was filled with singers and production numbers--I would suspect that at least half the show each week was non-comedy, while "SNL" has the set-in-stone two segments for the musical guest.

A few weeks ago, I watched the first episode of "SNL" essentially uncut on NBC VOD (what got cut seemed to be the plug for the Marriott Essex House hotel, although the gag plug for the Blaine Hotel after Laraine Newman's Weekend Update "report" on the murder spree at the fictional hotel was left in).  After getting out of the way George Carlin's multiple monologues, two musical guests each doing two songs (Billy Preston and Janis Ian), a monologue from Valeri Bromfield, Andy Kaufman's Mighty Mouse bit, the Albert Brooks film and the mucking Fuppets, there was not a heck of a lot of opportunities for the Not Ready for Prime Time Players to show off, except for the cold opening "The Wolverines," a typically Michael O'Donaghue-ian piece that screamed "THIS IS NOT YOUR MOTHER'S VARIETY SHOW!", and of course the first Weekend Update, that even minus most of the running gags of the Chevy Chase tenure still made him a star that night.  (If we only knew the truth about how big a bastard he was...)  And if only Jim Henson had demanded that his people write the Muppets sketch instead of Michaels' writers...

Mark Jeffries
Saints Spotlight Editor
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stannc

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May 3, 2020, 2:38:10 PM5/3/20
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But where were the big heads?
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