Fwd: [Eurotrams] Lisbon museum trams on the street (1/2)

[Greg Sutherland]

-------- Forwarded Message --------

Subject:	[Eurotrams] Lisbon museum trams on the street (1/2)
Date:	Thu, 3 Oct 2024 16:23:24 +0100
From:	Ernst Kers <erns...@gmail.com>
Reply-To:	eurotra...@googlegroups.com
To:	Eurotrams <eurotra...@googlegroups.com>

Museu da Carris, the museum of the Lisbon urban public transport company Carris, organizes every year a parade with a part of their vehicles. This year it was on Saturday 21 September. Two trips were made, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. Both times from Santo Amaro to Algés and back. Santo Amaro is the site with the tram depot, the tram workshops and the museum. Algés is the western terminus of tramline 15. A return trip takes a little less than an hour.

In total 13 vehicles participated, ten of them trams and three of the off-topic type with rubber tyres. As it's difficult to take photos of the trams when travelling in one of them, I decided to make photos of the trams on the morning trip and only join the afternoon trip.

In this mail photos of the first five of the ten participating trams. The photos are in sequence as the trams were during the trips, not as I took them. Except for one, all photos were made in Rua da Junqueira on a short distance from Santo Amaro.

Open tram no.283 was built by the J.G. Brill company of Philadelphia and delivered in 1902. It has Brill made 22E maximum traction bogies with 25 hp General Electric GE59 motors. It was the first of a series of 40: 283-322. These trams had seats for 48 passengers and were in service until the mid-1950's. No.283 is the sole survivor and brought back into the condition of about 1940.

Tram no.444 was one of a series of 75, numbered 400-474, built by the Saint Louis Car company and delivered in 1901. The trucks were Brill built of the 21E type and the motors GE59. Around 1930 these trams got a major overhaul. During this overhaul the platforms were closed, the drop windows were changed to lifting windows and the transverse seat arrangement changed from 2+1 into 2+2, augmenting the number of seats from 20 to 24. Apparently in that time Carris still wanted to offer as much seats as possible. Most of these trams were withdrawn during the 1960's, a small number getting into the early 1970's. Museum tram no.444 is brought back into close it's original state with open platforms, drop windows and 2+1 seat arrangement. This tram had me as passenger during the afternoon trip.

Tram no.535 was built by the Carris workshops in 1928 as part of the series 532-551. This was the first version of the tram type now emblematic for Lisbon. In contrary to the later versions the platform floors are on the same level as the saloon floor. To compensate a little for the larger step to be taken when boarding, the wheels are a little smaller: ø 78 cm instead of 85 cm normal on most other Lisbon trams. The truck is built by Maley & Taunton and of the 21ESL type, a modified Brill 21E design. The 45 hp MV115 motors were made by Metrovick (Metroplolitan-Vickers). Seat capacity is 24. The first four, 532-535, were around 1940 modified to be allowed for use on the lines with the steepest slopes. The others, 536-551, were in the early 1950's modified to operate in semi-permanent combinations with the new trailers built in the same period. Apart from a few accident victims, these trams were only withdrawn during the 1980's. Museum tram no.535 is brought back into close to the original state.

This is the only photo I made during the afternoon trip: in Rua dos Pedrouços out of the window of 444.

Tram no.741 was the youngest participant. That's to say of the trams. The buses were younger and also most of the people. ;-) This tram was built by the Carris workshops in 1947 as part of the series 736-745. These trams were allowed for use on the steepest slopes. The trucks were Maley & Taunton built 21ESL with MV115 motors. Seat capacity is 24.These trams, that means the bodies as the trucks and motors remained in use, were withdrawn in the late 1980's. Nine were scarpped, but the body of 741 was stored, later equiped with another truck and for many years on display in the museum on a short, isolated piece of track. This year was the first time it participated on the parade.

Tourist tram no.1 is now part of the museum collection. Like 444 it was part of the Saint Louis built series 400-474, the original number being 437. In 1965 this tram, together with no.435 that became no.2, was modified for the new tourist service. It seems that the new fleet numbers, 1 & 2, together with the red colour and the new but in old fashion ornate luxury style interior were meant to let the tourists believe that it were the very first Lisbon electric trams in original state. The reality is that the first electric trams were of the open type and numbered behind the existing horse trams (from 203 upward), the trams always had been yellow and the interiors were never in ornate luxury style. Also the modifications of about 1930, closed platforms and lifting windows, were retained. But of course it's in line with the tourist industry principle: "With anything you tell to tourists, don't care if it's true, just make them feel happy."

For about 30 years the red 1 & 2 pair provided the tourist service, but with the increasing number of tourists they were replaced by a larger number of younger trams. This pair now moves the visitors between the different locations of the museum on the Santo Amaro site.

In my next mail five more trams.

Ernst

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[Mal Rowe]

On 04/10/2024 11:22, 'Greg Sutherland' via TramsDownUnder wrote: (Quoting Ernst Jers)

Tram no.444 was one of a series of 75, numbered 400-474, built by the Saint Louis Car company and delivered in 1901. The trucks were Brill built of the 21E type and the motors GE59.

That's a strange looking truck - certainly not a Brill 21E now but perhaps someone's idea of what it might look like.

I have attached a pic of (lovely) 444 made by TDU correspondent Owen Brison back in 2001 at a similar event.

Mal Rowe - who has fond memories of a visit to Lisbon

[Roger Greenwood]

Hi Mal,

No 444 resembles the Brill cars used by the Essendon Tramways to initiate the Maribyrnong River service.

 

Some years ago, I secured 4 x traction motors ex-Lisbon for use in restored Hobart Nos 17 (single decker) & 39 (double decker) cars. These motors were initially sent to Bendigo for refurbishment and subsequently fitted to

2 x 3’ 6” 21E trucks fabricated at Bendigo.

 

Sad to say, these two Hobart trams plus a restored bogie car languish for want of a 3ft 6inch line to run them on. This is not an insurmountable problem but is currently stymied by the controversial issue of the *&$#@+^@!! AFL football stadium.

 

I’m sure the ex-Lisbon traction motors were GE59, suitable for use in the narrow-gauge Hobart trucks

 

Roger Greenwood

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[Mal Rowe]

On 04/10/2024 16:37, 'Roger Greenwood' via TramsDownUnder wrote:

Some years ago, I secured 4 x traction motors ex-Lisbon for use in restored Hobart Nos 17 (single decker) & 39 (double decker) cars. These motors were initially sent to Bendigo for refurbishment and subsequently fitted to

2 x 3’ 6” 21E trucks fabricated at Bendigo.

 

I’m sure the ex-Lisbon traction motors were GE59, suitable for use in the narrow-gauge Hobart trucks

 

The GE 59 motors were 25HP and the later MV115 motors were 45HP.

Here's a pic at the tram museum in Lisbon showing how tight the fit is on a narrow gauge (1 metre) truck.  These are the MV motors.

Mal Rowe - rather fond of ST Brill saloon cars

[Mal Rowe]

On 05/10/2024 08:53, Mal Rowe wrote:
> Here's a pic at the tram museum in Lisbon showing how tight the fit is
> on a narrow gauge (1 metre) truck.  These are the MV motors.

That should have been: narrow gauge (900mm)

Mal Rowe - posting another OT pic

[Mick Duncan]

Gday  Mal,Roger, All

Thanks for the Lisbon 21e pic

I wonder if a BTH265 motor would fit that truck

Cheers,   Mick

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[David McLoughlin]

By a joyful coincidence, I was in Lisboa last month and rode on the brand-new CAF trams on route 15 as well as the four-wheelers that run the rest of the system  (which is slowly expanding after years of decline).

[Roger Greenwood]

Hi Mal, Mick & All,

For the sake of completeness, I recount here how I went about securing 4 ex-Lisbon traction motors. It’s so long ago, they might’ve actually come from another tramway in Spain, or perhaps even Portugal.

 

I learned from a British tram restorer that another British chap had done a deal with a tramway (somewhere on the Iberian Peninsular) to purchase a quantity of traction motors that were so clapped out they weren’t worth overhauling.

 

I got in touch with the new owner of the traction motors who was amenable to selling Qty 4 of them on an “as is, where is” basis. The ‘where is” turned out to be a small coastal village in (I think) Kent called Walton-on-the Naze. I took a train from London to (I think) Colchester where I picked up a hire-car and headed for Walton-on-the Naze, navigating (flying blind) via country roads. Reaching my destination, I booked into the pub (got ripped off) and then met up with the new owner of the traction motors. That evening, I had dinner with him, the sole subject of conversation limited to how shitty British food really is. Next day I finally saw the traction motors, all stacked up with minimal protection from the weather. I estimated approx 40 or so, and I identified the four of my choice.

Now back home I had to arrange shipment of them back to Oz. The only practical way was via sea-freight, and I had to arrange for them to be crated up. So far so good, they arrived crated up at a seaport on the UK east coast.

Shipping documents identified the port and date of unloading as Sydney but then the shit hit the fan. Inspection by Import officers revealed that all four crates had been dragged across bare dirt prior to loading in UK, leading the possibility of them being contaminated. The only recourse was to have them de-contaminated by immersion in some kind of high-pressure spray jigger.

Having finally cleared Customs, they were dispatched by coastal shipping from Sydney to Hobart where they were refused entry until production of a UK decontamination certificate. There was a further delay while this was assessed but finally all four crates were released.

There must be easier ways of obtaining second-hand traction motors for use in narrow gauge trucks.

Roger Greenwood

 

From: 'Mick Duncan' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2024 12:41 AM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Fwd: [Eurotrams] Lisbon museum trams on the street (1/2)

 

Gday  Mal,Roger, All

Thanks for the Lisbon 21e pic

I wonder if a BTH265 motor would fit that truck

Cheers,   Mick

.

[Mal Rowe]

Thanks David,

Did you by chance take an interior pic of the new CAF trams?

I would be interested to see how they handle truck clearance with a
900mm gauge.

Mal Rowe

[David McLoughlin]

Sorry Mal I didn't take any interiors. They seemed quite spacious, and they went round the sharp bends on the narrow inner-city streets quite well. I also saw only a couple of the old artic trams running, in the evening peaks only. Photo attached of one.

dmcl