Re: Swanston and Victoria Streets upgrade

[brian_...@westnet.com.au]

The Age has published a story on the upgrade. Our esteemed moderator contributed some historical background information.

 

Brian Weedon

 

 

 

The 50-metre ‘missing link’ fix that will open new cross-city tram routes

 

By Patrick Hatch

May 16, 2024 — 5.00am

 

For almost a century, two segments of Melbourne’s sprawling tram network have passed tantalisingly close together outside Queen Victoria Market but never joined.

That will change next month when the transport department builds a small section of track across the intersection of Elizabeth and Victoria streets – paving the way for a potential rejig of some of the city’s busiest tram routes.

The connection – about 50 metres long – is one of several “missing links” around the network long called for but never built.

It will make it possible for trams from North Melbourne to continue moving east – past the market along a dormant stretch of track on Victoria Street – and then turn right into Swanston Street.

Those trams currently travel down Elizabeth Street and stop at the Flinders Street terminus. The link could enable new cross-city routes between West Maribyrnong and destinations south of the Yarra via St Kilda Road.

The state government is tight-lipped about any future route changes, but a works notifications published in February said the project would “create potential for Swanston Street to be connected to North Melbourne” and the Arden urban renewal precinct “in the future”.

Rail Futures Institute president John Hearsch said the Queen Victoria Market connection was the first of several missing links that should be built to open better cross-city travel on the tram network.

“There’s so many opportunities at a relatively modest cost to significantly improve the network,” said Hearsch, whose independent organisation researches and advocates for better public transport.

“You can then start re-routing some very long-established tram routes, some of which haven’t changed in 50 years, notwithstanding how the city and suburbs have changed in that time.”

Hearsch said the government should also extend tracks along Arden Street, North Melbourne, on Spencer Street to the new Arden urban renewal precinct, and build the 300-metre Park Street link in South Melbourne so some St Kilda Road trams could divert through Clarendon and Spencer streets in the CBD.

He also suggested extending the track about 700 metres further east along Victoria Street in the CBD to connect with tracks on Victoria Parade. That east-west link along Victoria Street was first proposed by the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board in 1923.

As one example of the kind of network changes that would make possible, the Rail Futures Institute proposes a circular tram route connecting employment and residential hubs around the inner city.

Malcolm Rowe, a volunteer at the Melbourne Tram Museum in Hawthorn, said the dormant section of track along Victoria Street between Elizabeth and Swanston streets hadn’t been used regularly for more than 30 years, other than for direct services to the Shrine of Remembrance on Anzac Day.

The section was first built in 1926 to transfer Essendon trams from Haymarket to the Swanston Street corridors. It was then used as the main city terminus for Swanston Street trams until 1991, when the terminus moved to the University of Melbourne.

Rowe said the fact those routes never connected was a legacy of the network’s early history, when trams from the north-western suburbs went down Elizabeth Street and those from the south went up Swanston.

“So many of our routes have never changed from the 1880s, when they were built as cable trams,” he said.

Works on the Victoria Street tracks are set to start in June. Works notifications show that tracks at the corner of Swanston and Victoria streets – which cut across the corner opposite City Baths – will be sharpened into an L-shape turn.

That will create new open space the City of Melbourne wants used for outdoor dining.

A state government spokesman said the works at the intersection of Elizabeth and Victoria streets would “allow trams to be diverted around incidents and minimise disruptions to passengers”. But he would not comment on future route changes or further network improvements.

“We’re continually looking at opportunities to improve the world’s biggest tram network, including on how we can deliver better transport links,” the spokesman said.

The government published a “Melbourne Tram Plan” late last year, but it did not mention any specific network extensions, including the long-awaited routes to Fishermans Bend.

Public Transport Users Association spokesman Daniel Bowen said the Metro Tunnel rail line would take demand off Swanston Street trams when it opened next year, and present an opportunity to rethink the network.

“It does fundamentally change the flow of people in and around the CBD, so they should be looking at what options there are to change tram routes to better use that capacity,” Bowen said.

 

Patrick Hatch is transport reporter at The Age and a former business reporter.

 

[p...@bigpond.com]

A very interesting article and good to see two of Australia’s most colourful and highly respected transport identities, John Hearsch and Mal Rowe, acknowledged and quoted.

The extended Victoria Street proposal is interesting. It would make sense to “prepare” the Swanston Street intersection for possible extension east.

 

We are yet to hear (?) the future of the disused section of the former route 8 but the current work on Domain Road suggests there are plans for reinstatement. And what about the “junction” at Toorak Road and Park Street?

Sydney had it right more than a century ago with various alternative and relief routes. Melbourne was different but the system has slowly evolved towards what could be called a Sydney style.

But the central district of Melbourne remains subject to regular disruption. Planned community events such as parades and processions and, in more recent times, demonstrations and protests. All cause disruption to the tram network. I believe the time has come for an alternative network plan to “keep the service going” (using old MMTB parlance) in times of disruption – both planned and spontaneous. With more curves and other diversionary options available, it would be relatively simple to devise a new “weekend” network with all routes running but not entering the central business district. I believe the current situation – where services are altered at short notice particularly at weekends – is not passenger friendly.

One thing is certain: the Melbourne network is subject to change and development so perhaps time for Melbourne based members of the TDU community to be out “getting the snaps” of everyday workings that may well become history before too long.

Paul in Melbourne

[espee8800]

Of course Sydney did not develop out of a network of cable trams and via local council initiatives.

My concern is that the combining of routes will diminish the frequency through the city. Witness the route 10 being the night time conversion of 11 & 12 when the frequency was not needed. The 11 & 12 neatly provided a double frequency through the city area. If that can be solved then good but I suspect that the frequency of the suburban routes when combined will not change hence the city frequency diminishes.

But, of course, I am a country resident and would be regarded as not knowing the real situation if I ever got the ear someone who matters.

On Thu, 16 May 2024 at 12:45, pn1 via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

A very interesting article and good to see two of Australia’s most colourful and highly respected transport identities, John Hearsch and Mal Rowe, acknowledged and quoted.

The extended Victoria Street proposal is interesting. It would make sense to “prepare” the Swanston Street intersection for possible extension east.

Indeed, the tram in Victoria Parade East is noty far away but what purpose would it serve for a link from the 57/59 into the e.g. 109 etc?

--

cheers and best wishes,
David in Avenel.au,    
[Before you change anything, learn why it is the way it is.]

[David Batho]

I came across this photograph on Pinterest today. I suspect it has already been discussed on TDU, as it seems vaguely familiar. Is it a tramway signal, to indicate when to cross the railway line, perhaps?

David

[Andrew Highriser]

It is as you suggest, mechanically controlled from the railway signal box. I think it would be showing a green lamp to the tram in this position, and the large red disc with red lamp ready to spin around before tram catch points were set to the derail position before the train level crossing.  

A good find, but where is it? I think tram route 67, either Elsternwick, but the railway line was lowered a long time ago, or Glen Huntley, more likely the latter. 

Andrew.

On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 at 19:23, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I came across this photograph on Pinterest today. I suspect it has already been discussed on TDU, as it seems vaguely familiar. Is it a tramway signal, to indicate when to cross the railway line, perhaps?

David

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[espee8800]

Not Glen Huntly, methinks your first guess is correct. Those discs have been around a long time.

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[Jeremy Wainwright]

It's certainly not the last survivor (disconnected), which is at Kooyong (north side), or at Riversdale (wrong topography in both cases). My memory of the set-up at Elsternwick before lowering some 60-odd years ago is hazy but that seems to me more likely than Glen Huntley. However, don't ignore the possibility  that is at one of the crossings of the Inner Circle.

JWW

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From: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Andrew Highriser <andrewhi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, 26 April 2025 9:09 PM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

 

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[Malcolm Miles]

> …  My memory of the set-up at Elsternwick before lowering some 60-odd years ago is hazy but that seems to me more likely than Glen Huntley.

 

Elsternwick. The crossing has gone but the building on the left is still there.

 

 

 

Best wishes,

Malcolm

[brian_weedon]

Getting back to the original reason for this topic, from https://yarratrams.com.au/planned-disruptions

"Service changes apply to Route 19, 57 and 59 tram". Scheduled dates are 4th July to 20th July. Presumably for the connecting tracks across Elizabeth Street.

Brian Weedon

[David Batho]

The photo is apparently at Elsternwick.

David

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[Mal Rowe]

On 26/04/2025 23:36, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> The photo is apparently at Elsternwick.
>

Definitely so.

Here's a pic by Ian Brady looking in the opposite direction along
Glenhuntly Rd (as it was then known).

The disc signals for trams in both directions are visible.

Mal Rowe - holding Ian's great contribution

[billc...@bigpond.com]

Definitely Elsternwick, the building centre left is my parents newsagency, and the picture is taken looking towards Elsternwick junction.

Regards Bill whose parents bought the shop in 1956.

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From: 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2025 11:36 PM

To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

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[billc...@bigpond.com]

Mal, Ian Brady would have been standing under the verandah outside my parents newsagency.

Regards bill in cloudy Dromana.

---

From: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mal Rowe <mal....@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2025 8:45 AM

To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

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[Mal Rowe]

On 26/04/2025 19:23, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> I came across this photograph on Pinterest today. I suspect it has already been discussed on TDU, as it seems vaguely familiar. Is it a tramway signal, to indicate when to cross the railway line, perhaps?

Here's the old disc signal at Kooyong - now out of use.

You can see the current replacement - road traffic lights - with T lights.

Kooyong and Riversdale Rd both also had catch points on the downgrade
leading to the crossing.

Mal Rowe - also noting the articulated boom barriers to avoid the
trolleywires

[David Batho]

Thank you to every one for your replies. Now to my next, taxonomical, question: is it a railway or a tramway signal?! (It would have been operated by the railway signalman, I presume, or operated automatically when the gates went down, but applied to a tramway.)

David

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<Signals_Kooyong_16May2017.tif>

[David Batho]

And, for an encore, who would have maintained it: railway, tramway (or road)?!

David


> On 27 Apr 2025, at 4:10 pm, Mal Rowe <mal....@gmail.com> wrote:
>

[Mal Rowe]

On 27/04/2025 17:15, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder wrote:

Thank you to every one for your replies. Now to my next, taxonomical, question: is it a railway or a tramway signal?! (It would have been operated by the railway signalman, I presume, or operated automatically when the gates went down, but applied to a tramway.)

I'll leave the taxonomy questions to others.  I have enough trouble trying to separate Railway - Tramway and Light Railway!

Here's a pic of the lever frame at Kooyong in 2004, when the crossing was still manually controlled.

Perhaps one of the signal gurus on the list may be able to tell us which lever did what.

Mal Rowe - who once applied for a job as a signalling engineer.

[David Batho]

That Signal Engineering be a black art!!!

David


> On 27 Apr 2025, at 5:37 pm, Mal Rowe <mal....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Andrew Highriser]

Into the 1980s, the crossings were controlled by manually operating swinging railway gates, operated by hand using rods and cables from the signal boxes, and the signal box also controlled the tram signals and derailment points, also very manually controlled. Boom barriers replaced the gates but still everything was manually controlled from the signal box, and I expect at the remaining two rail crossings by trams while now much more electrically operated, are still a very much manual operation. The signaller will also now have control of traffic lights.

Andrew.  

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[Jeremy Wainwright]

Unless I am mistaken, the signaller also has control of the power supply to the 'tramway square'.

JWW

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From: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Andrew Highriser <andrewhi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, 27 April 2025 9:46 PM

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Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

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[David Batho]

That accords with what I recall of previous discussion(s).

David

[espee8800]

As one who signal maintenance section actually covered Kooyong (and also Gardiner) all of the signalling equipment is railway. 

The railway preceded the trams by some years although both Kooyong and Gardiner signal boxes were provided when the trams appeared - Kooyong 30/5/1913 and Gardiner 5/12/1917. Electric trains came to the Darling line on 15/12/1922 and that's when the switching gear for the overhead was installed. 

At the time the only style of signal for these moves - effectively a shunt move across the railway - was the disc signals. In later years most were replaced by lights. These signals keep trams clear of the tramway square when the power is set for a train, the switching from 1500v to 600v is done by the catch point levers which also work the discs. Trams don't take kindly to 1500v DC. Trains would care about the 600 odd V though. 

Elsternwick signal box opened on 1/11/1883 and the trams arrived 12/11/1913, the permanent signal box was replaced by a temporary building on 30/8/1959 for the grade separation and it was abolished on 2/10/1960.

On 27 Apr 2025, at 10:03 pm, Jeremy Wainwright <jew...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Unless I am mistaken, the signaller also has control of the power supply to the 'tramway square'.

[Mal Rowe]

Thanks David,

Here's the diagram from the Victorian Railways website.

I notice that there were catch points in both tram lines.

Mal Rowe - still wondering what each lever did.

[Hal Cain]

The signalling diagram shows the railway in 1926 when it was still a single line; maybe that was when the catch points and the signals for trams were installed.

According to the article in Wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kooyong_railway_station>, electrification of the railway occurred in March 1922.There must have been provision for the signalman to switch the electric supply to the crossing square before 1926, but perhaps there were no catch points; or maybe the railway gates were not interlocked until 1926. The railway line was duplicated from Kooyong to Gardiner in 1955, Kooyong to Heyington in 1957, but I don't remember which year the tramway square was rebuilt as double track. The diagram in Vicsig <https://vicsig.net/infrastructure/location/Kooyong> shows what each signal lever worked in 2007. The striped levers control the tramway signals and catch points.

Hal Cain

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[Mal Rowe]

Thanks Hal,

Here's a snap from nearly 15 years ago showing PMTT 84 crossing the
tramway square.

Mal Rowe - who enjoyed that day

[p...@bigpond.com]

The day was one of the last big turnouts in Melbourne of "colourful tramway identities" born in the 1940s and 1950s - sadly, many no longer with us.

Paul, like Mal, - who enjoyed that day.

-----Original Message-----
From: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Mal Rowe
Sent: Tuesday, 29 April 2025 08:36
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Mystery (Tramway?) Signal

Thanks Hal,

Here's a snap from nearly 15 years ago showing PMTT 84 crossing the tramway square.

Mal Rowe - who enjoyed that day

.