Light rail fails in the hour of need

[TP]

https://twitter.com/7NewsSydney/status/1615953371424514048

Sydney South East light rail stopped for an hour yesterday due to flooding just as an Elton John concert with a 30,000 crowd finished. It would have made the option of walking to Central very unpleasant. A fleet of articulated buses came to the rescue.

Does anyway recall rain stopping event trams at Moore Park in the old days? I don't think the topography has changed.

Tony P

[Geoff Olsen]

I wasn’t old enough to notice if it happened in days gone by but the current system does seem over sensitive.

 

Geoff O.

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[TP]

Perhaps they should roof the light rail as well.

[quote]

Calls for roof at Allianz Stadium after Elton John fans drenched at show

Critics say Sydney’s reputation as a world-class city took a beating on Wednesday night after fans at Elton John’s show got soaked by rain, sparking new calls for a roofed venue.

January 19, 2023 - 7:05PM

5 comments

dailytelegraph.com.au00:35

Drenching rain that required “Rocket Man” Elton John’s piano to be repeatedly wiped down mid-performance on Wednesday night has ignited another push for Sydney to get a roofed stadium.

Concertgoers left sodden from Wednesday night’s concert at the new $828 million Allianz Stadium, which was designed without a roof and opened in August.

Paul Nicolaou, executive director of Business Sydney, said images of rain-soaked patrons had been beamed around the world, hurting Sydney’s reputation.

“Sydney aspires to be a world city and by definition it has the attributes that make it a world class place to live, work and do business,” he said.

He said Sydney’s role “as an international city of note” can’t be realised “while we don’t have the benefit of a single big event stadium where the roof can be closed”.

Elton John on stage at Allianz Stadium on his Farewell Yellow Brick Road tour. Picture: John Appleyard

Mr Nicolaou said images of Elton John’s farewell performance “to rain-soaked patrons … have unfortunately gone around the world, sadly diminishing Sydney and its international stature”.

“Put simply, an all-weather stadium for Sydney is desperately needed to guarantee major events are not subject to the whim of rogue weather systems,” he said.

Fans donned ponchos …

… in the bucketing rain.

Aussie music pioneer Michael Chugg, the founder of Chugg Entertainment which helped bring Elton John’s show to Australia said: “Any new stadium should be built with roofs.

“It’d be nice to have one, but I can’t see anything like that in the near future,” he told The Telegraph.

In lieu of that, Mr Chugg said he’d prefer a “brand new entertainment centre” in the city or in the Moore Park precinct.

“There’s only so many acts that can play stadiums, but a lot of acts can play arenas,” he said.

When the stadium opened in August it was billed by the state government as a state-of-the-art facility.

Patrons leaving the venue on Wednesday and attempting to travel back to the eastern suburbs were hit with an extra hindrance — the light rail was suspended at Moore Park for more than an hour due to the rain.

“Unfortunately, the delays impacted customers heading out of the city as they exited the Elton John concert,” a Transport NSW spokeswoman said.

“(Light Rail operator) Transdev apologises for the inconvenience to passengers.”

Calls for a roof over Allianz come after similar pleas for a cover over Accor Stadium at Homebush, where Venues NSW chair Tony Shepherd has previously pushed for a retractable cover costing $120 million.

Mr Shepherd on Thursday acknowledged the NSW Government “has its limits”.

“We would have liked an opening (and) closing roof but we also recognise the government has its financial limits and they have many mouths to feed,” he told The Telegraph.

Sports Minister Alister Henskens said the new Allianz Stadium was “world class”, and the government would continue to look at improvements to sportsgrounds across Sydney.

“We’ll continue to look at ways to enhance our stadium infrastructure and we’ve got a strong record of doing that,” he said.

[unquote]

Tony P

[peterm...@gmail.com]

According to Howard Collins in an interview he said a set of points failed after going under water.

Peter

[TP]

How is that even possible?

Tony P

[peterm...@gmail.com]

Motorised points..........  Apparently a taxi and a tram met too some time that evening

[Mal Rowe]

On 20/01/2023 11:59, peterm...@gmail.com wrote:
> According to Howard Collins in an interview he said a set of points
> failed after going under water.

A Lo-tech solution to this sort of problem is applied regularly in a
city to the south ...

Picture attached.

Mal Rowe in a city that gives drivers some respect for common sense

[bblun...@yahoo.com]

Sorry, but our sooky drivers can’t be expected to go out in the rain to use such archaic tools. 

I guess the points are all interlocked and thus not as simple an action?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

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[Mark Skinner]

So...what happens if a driver selects the wrong road by mistake? Surely, they can get out and change the points manually?

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[peterm...@gmail.com]

Hi Mal,

Yes I know, that happens at loftus, but apparently not L1,2,3. 

Peter

[peterm...@gmail.com]

Brian,

Yes signalled sigh

Peter

[bblun...@yahoo.com]

Points are remotely set from a control room. Driver has no involvement. 

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

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[Matthew Geier]

On 20/1/23 15:39, 'bblun...@yahoo.com' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> Sorry, but our sooky drivers can’t be expected to go out in the rain
> to use such archaic tools.
> I guess the points are all interlocked and thus not as simple an action?
>

They do carry point bars but they are not allowed to use them with out
explicit direction from the OCC. The procedure to authorize manual
operation is probably many pages long :-)

[Hunslet]

Perhaps a single set could be sent down to Loftus and light rail crews be given some instruction on how to drive "trams" the old way, including manually changing and re-setting points, etc.!
Hunslet.

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[Matthew Geier]

On 20/1/23 15:52, Mark Skinner wrote:
> So...what happens if a driver selects the wrong road by mistake?
> Surely, they can get out and change the points manually?
>

In Sydney drivers do not select the points, the 'traffic computer'
(AVLS) does. It also controls the destination screens.

If the AVLS is down or not communicating with the master control
computer,  the OCC will direct the drivers to select points using the
direction selection buttons on the console. A selector switch to be
turned from auto to manual before those buttons work. The locations of
the beacons are marked track side.

Basically it appears the function of an LRV driver to read the AVLS
screen and follow it's directions. The only autonomy is 'don't run over
pedestrians'. Every thing else is regulated by computers.

[Geoff Olsen]

Yeah, funny. The points at Loftus can and do work when the pit is full of water. You just have to be out of the way when they change as there is an impressive spurt of water when the blade hits the stock railJ

[Geoff Olsen]

I think that I see where you gents are going wrong. Melbourne has those funny old trams whereas Sydney has a "Modern light fail, er, rail"system.

-----Original Message-----
From: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tramsdo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Geier
Sent: Friday, 20 January 2023 4:36 PM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com

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[TP]

After the trams finished, Moore Park events were served by buses and there were never enough of them. Exiting the venue onto an abundance of trams that swallowed the crowds up was replaced by waiting for occasional buses and then running frantically to get on one in case it was the only one (you never knew in those days before transport apps on phones). Illustrated in the attached Fairfax photo (which I've titled "Fall of the Roman Empire")..

At the Elton Johns concert, the trams barely did the job of that single bus. There were six artic buses supplied for the event by Transit systems and they were the lifesavers.

Tony P

[TP]

I'm hearing now that TfNSW didn't bother approving Transdev to insert additional LX trams in between the regular trams passing through Moore Park during the event. LX is the route number given to special event trams that are interspersed between the regular L2 and L3 trams between Central and Moore Park/Randwick Racecourse during events.

At that time of night, regular route trams are passing through Moore Park every five minutes, giving a capacity of about 5,400 persons per hour per direction. Insertion of LX trams in between should double that capacity, assuming they can undertake the operation with Swiss watch-like discipline. Addition of the five artic buses should provide another 1,000-1,500 pphpd on top of that, let's say about 12,000 pphpd. Then the trams fell over, leaving the artics to do the job. The stadium crowd size was 30,000. The balance is supposed to be picked up by private cars and walking. Not brilliant, considering the capacity of the former tram system to move 60,000 per hour at that venue.

In Sydney, Olympic Park will be perfect once the metro opens through there. SUburban event trains manage until then. Other states seem to do a lot better than Moore Park. Perth's new Optus Stadium has been designed to be served by public transport only and trains and buses can lift an entire capacity crowd of 60,000 on their own.

Tony P

[Mark Skinner]

It's almost as if, from start to finish with light rail, that TfNSW has sabotaged the government. The exorbitant cost and outrageous project time in which almost every decision cost more or degraded performance is now compounded by this series of events. I do accept that big projects will always have ups and downs. However,  when a project is consistently underperforming is not the time for shrugging shoulders and bulling ahead.

Of course, one of the reasons for representative government is to curtail out-of-control feral bureaucracy. So, obviously the Government has to take responsibility too. A few top heads rolling in 2017 AND selection of competent replacements could have changed history. 

Mark Skinner 

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[TP]

The NSW transport bureaucracy up to 2011 was a bucket full of tram-hating bus boosters. I think there was a bit of a purge in early years of the current government and many of the incumbents would have left in disgust anyway. The remaining issues are I think basically competence ones. It didn't help when all these heavy-rail types rushed forward to offer their services as "light rail experts".

Tony P

[Greg Sutherland]

Looks like we have not heard the end of this fiasco.

There was a par on today's ABC Sydney's 7;00 am new bulletin.

The 'flooded points' and the associated bus failure (only 6 artics) were mentioned.

Greg

On 21/01/2023 2:37 pm, Mark Skinner wrote:

It's almost as if, from start to finish with light rail, that TfNSW has sabotaged the government. The exorbitant cost and outrageous project time in which almost every decision cost more or degraded performance is now compounded by this series of events. I do accept that big projects will always have ups and downs. However,  when a project is consistently underperforming is not the time for shrugging shoulders and bulling ahead.

Of course, one of the reasons for representative government is to curtail out-of-control feral bureaucracy. So, obviously the Government has to take responsibility too. A few top heads rolling in 2017 AND selection of competent replacements could have changed history. 

Mark Skinner 

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, 11:13 am TP, <histor...@smartchat.net.au> wrote:

 702

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[Tony Galloway]

Speaking of fiascos, the PIDs on the L1 are showing a message  that on 26 Jan George St trams are terminating at Town Hall from 09:00 to 22:00.

So while turning George St into a pedestrian zone is a good thing running trams along it when a lot of pedestrians might be around isn’t.

Interesting perspective there, if the point of operating trams on a traffic free street is to improve the mobility of the pedestrians using it.

Tony

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[TP]

Considering the less than 2 km distance between Moore Park and Central, there was no problem with the number of six artics that would have filled up the available road doing a continuous loop. The event buses actually have a dedicated loop terminus at Moore Park on the site of the old tramway loops and where a loop should have been built for CSELR event trams! The issue is that the buses were supposed to supplement the trams, not do the whole job for them! The other thing is that the bus loop is out of sight of the tram stop, so most people would have gone to the tram stop and waited there in the rain, unaware that there was a duplicate bus service from a well-sheltered stop nearby. Poor design and poor management. I guess next time we'll see everybody who learned from experience heading for the bus terminus and ignoring the tram.

The other issue is that, in spite of knowing that there would be 30,000 people at the venue, TfNSW didn't consider it necessary to authorise additional LX trams to infill between the regular trams. Even in the event of the points failure, I believe that was further upstream, so the LX trams would have been able to continue operating even if the regular route trams were held up.

As an aside, I do wonder how they go with running LX trams in between the regulars at a combined 2 minute headway, considering the shunting required at the event stops. Do they really manage to trundle one of those 67 metre trams into a siding, get the driver to waddle the distance to the other end (on the ground, considering the tram is a coupled set), go through the startup procedures and run back into the platform two minutes before the next regular tram arrives? This is why, in the early planning, in lieu of loops, we recommended triple platforms at Circular Quay and Central, while others and I urged for loops at Moore Park and Randwick Racecourse. The railway types, in their wisdom, thought that shunting stubs would be OK at the two venues. Unfortunately, I don't live there to observe how this goes in practice, but the way the trams trundle around generally, I can't imagine it happening with the precision of a Swiss watch. Perhaps this is why TfNSW doesn't encourage the use of extra event trams - they've learnt that the operation has a good chance of stumbling over itself.

On a side note, the reason for the third platform at Circular Quay was to provide for a future two-minute headway operation. The third platform should be permanently empty under the current 4 minute service, but I hear reports that there are sometimes three trams parked there. Now how would this happen I wonder? (Guessing the answer.)

Tony P

(who is absolutely not a fan of stubbed tram systems)

[Tony Galloway]

The Moore Park stop has a scissors crossover at the city end as well as the centre stub at the outer end, so no need to run all trams into the stub to reverse if running a short working to there. The layout is effectively the same as at Bondi Jct station which uses both the x-over and the stub to reverse trains depending on traffic levels while the outer tracks are used to stable trains beyond the platforms till needed. These parked trains would be the trams at Moore Park continuing to Kingsford and Randwick. They could apply how Bondi Jct works to get more out of what they have there.

While a loop would be better for all the well known reasons, I can imagine, given the ridiculous overbuilt track used, the bean counters would have had a sook about the cost of it, and probably there was some whining about the impact on car parking or something. But the way they use what they have there (seven power operated, remotely controlled turnouts wouldn’t have been cheap either) shows an underlying incompetence that is inexcusable.

The thinking behind the way TfNSW does stuff remains a mystery to me, they always default to “when in doubt, get the buses out”.

Tony

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[bblun...@yahoo.com]

There is also a cross over just south of Lang Rd which could be used to reverse trams, but then congestion at Chalmers St could be a problem, even with 3 platforms capable of terminating services?

Brian

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[Matthew Geier]

On 23/1/23 10:42, TP wrote:
> Considering the less than 2 km distance between Moore Park and
> Central, there was no problem with the number of six artics that would
> have filled up the available road doing a continuous loop. The event
> buses actually have a dedicated loop terminus at Moore Park on the
> site of the old tramway loops and where a loop should have been built
> for CSELR event trams! T

The bus loop is no longer a loop. They stuck a turning loop at the end
when the loop was cut by the light rail construction and last I looked,
never restored it.

The CESLR tracks have a set of traffic lights next to the Moore Park
stop that were installed, but never commissioned.

> The other issue is that, in spite of knowing that there would be
> 30,000 people at the venue, TfNSW didn't consider it necessary to
> authorise additional LX trams to infill between the regular trams.
> Even in the event of the points failure, I believe that was further
> upstream, so the LX trams would have been able to continue operating
> even if the regular route trams were held up.
>

Presumably TfNSW have to pay Transdev to do it - and I wouldn't mind
betting that TfNSW wants some sort of 'consideration' from the event
promoters - or at least will do nothing unless the promoter asks them too.

> As an aside, I do wonder how they go with running LX trams in between
> the regulars at a combined 2 minute headway, considering the shunting
> required at the event stops. Do they really manage to trundle one of
> those 67 metre trams into a siding, get the driver to waddle the
> distance to the other end (on the ground, considering the tram is a
> coupled set), go through the startup procedures and run back into the
> platform two minutes before the next regular tram arrives?

A Citadis 305 can 'cut in' quite quickly. (I watched a driver at
Circular Quay recently, I think the cab activated in around 30 seconds)
Most of the delay will be the driver's 65m walk to the other end.

[Matthew Geier]

On 23/1/23 11:25, Tony Galloway wrote:
> The Moore Park stop has a scissors crossover at the city end as well
> as the centre stub at the outer end, so no need to run all trams into
> the stub to reverse if running a short working to there. The layout is
> effectively the same as at Bondi Jct station which uses both the
> x-over and the stub to reverse trains depending on traffic levels
> while the outer tracks are used to stable trains beyond the platforms
> till needed. These parked trains would be the trams at Moore Park
> continuing to Kingsford and Randwick. They could apply how Bondi Jct
> works to get more out of what they have there.

They could use relay drivers at Moore Park. But I do wonder if what
would happen if the incoming driver was too quick off the mark and tried
to activate their cab before the outgoing driver had flicked their key
off. Probably spend the next 30 minute rebooting the tram with a
'battery off - battery on' to clear the 'multiple cabs activated' error.

[bblun...@yahoo.com]

The bus loop cuts off the bus roadway near the pedestrian overbridge, to the bus stands, then continues a short distance to a U-turn loop and back to the bus roadway.

Inbound buses operate via Fitzroy and Foveaux St, dropping off just before Elizabeth St and returning via Albion St.

The roadway with the traffic lights is MacArthur Ave, but only a short section is accessible from the western end due to concrete bollards across it. I understand it is reserved for "emergency vehicles" and the traffic lights are only activated when it is in use.

Brian

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[TP]

There is still a bus loop at Moore Park, but it's much smaller than the old loop, though still with plenty of capacity and shelter. The thing is that it's yonks away from the tram stop, so there's no chance of users having an overview of both stops so that they can make a choice if something goes pear-shaped at one of the stops. It would be logical in the event of a mishap at the tram stop that the control room could advise the waiting crowd to walk down to the bus stop to catch a bus, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that didn't happen.

TfNSW hired the artics from Transit Systems (inner west).

Tony P

[bblun...@yahoo.com]

TP wrote:

Presumably TfNSW have to pay Transdev to do it - and I wouldn't mind
betting that TfNSW wants some sort of 'consideration' from the event
promoters - or at least will do nothing unless the promoter asks them too.

Yes, at  these events where supplementary PT is supplied, the ticket price includes a "contribution" to the cost of transport, which is passed on to TfNSW.

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[Tony Galloway]

And another thought, if they wanted to reverse trams quickly the could have relay drivers to take over the other end of terminating trams, with the redundant driver then taking the next tram back from the city end, like when St James was a stub terminus on the city railway.

Tony

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[Tony Galloway]

Yeah, they’re not short of places to reverse trams if need be, and control it all with signals, with a few traffic officers to sort out any hitches.

Can’t be too hard.

Tony

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[Tony Galloway]

Just saw this - couldn’t be any worse than doing bugger-all, which is the current practice.

And they have their gee-whiz Cheyenne Bunker control centre - if they have such little confidence in the ability - or training - of their tram drivers, they can co-ordinate the switch throwing from there.

Dead set, they have this high tech, micromanaged control regime with the frontline staff left with no personal initiative, and at the first glitch it all grinds to a halt, with everyone onsite sitting on their clackers “waiting for something to happen”.

Very impressive….

Tony

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[TP]

Yes, I forgot that there's a backup control centre for CSELR at Moore Park. I don't know exactly where it is. If it is underground, no doubt it was flooded on that night.

Tony P

[Tony Galloway]

Have they?

I was thinking of their normal control centre, just being sarcastic.

It seems whatever they have they don’t know what to do with it, or it’s so vulnerable predictable rainfall stops it working.

What a joke - pay top dollar, get the Toonerville Trolley.

Tony

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[bblun...@yahoo.com]

I think it is under the platforms.

The is a third "B" button on the lift for the pedestrian walkway. There is also some structure under the football grounds adjacent to the entrance to the tunnel; perhaps a sub-station?

Brian, who has tried pressing it.

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[Matthew Geier]

On 23/1/23 14:42, TP wrote:
> Yes, I forgot that there's a backup control centre for CSELR at Moore
> Park. I don't know exactly where it is. If it is underground, no doubt
> it was flooded on that night.
>

Yep, they do have an underground bunker at Moore Park. The lift on the
eastern side has a level -1 and there are set of stairs heading down
underground next to it. It's the backup control room - the main control
room is at Randwick depot.

I assume the 'bunker' has another exit at the other end into that
normally locked up underpass.


There was an interruption to the CESELR once when some one set the fire
alarms off at Randwick and they all exited the building, including the
control room. Only to find that some one had not done the correct
'transfer control' procedure when exiting Randwick and they couldn't get
the bunker to come online and the firies were not going to let any one
back into Randwick till they gave the all clear.

[Tony Galloway]

A comedy written by Mel Brooks - do they have an algorithm for that?

Tony

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[Tony Galloway]

How to get into the CSELR underground control bunker :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWEvp217Tzw&ab_channel=BadWolf

Tony

On 23 Jan 2023, at 15:33, Matthew Geier <mat...@sleeper.apana.org.au> wrote:

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[David Batho]

Thank you, Mal. For some reason I thought it would have a hook on the end.

David


> On 20 Jan 2023, at 3:19 pm, Mal Rowe <mal....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 20/01/2023 11:59, peterm...@gmail.com wrote:
>> According to Howard Collins in an interview he said a set of points failed after going under water.
>
> A Lo-tech solution to this sort of problem is applied regularly in a city to the south ...
>
> Picture attached.
>
> Mal Rowe in a city that gives drivers some respect for common sense

>
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> <Melbourne-point-bar.jpg>

[David Batho]

It would give a covered walkway when the trams aren’t running!

David


> On 19 Jan 2023, at 11:39 pm, TP <histor...@smartchat.net.au> wrote:
>
> Perhaps they should roof the light rail as well.
>
>

[Malcolm Rowe]

True of Sydney, where they used locally manufactured railway style points on the old electric system, but not of Melbourne or any other Aussie system that I am aware of.

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Mal Rowe - AU

[David Batho]

Okay, so how are the Melbourne ones used?

David

[Malcolm Rowe]

The point bar is dropped into a socket in the roadway and pushed across.

See: https://tdu.to/i/34530

Modern point bars are longer and have handles to avoid the technique shown in my 1967 photo.

Mal Rowe - making the point

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[Andrew Highriser]

While Melbourne points do fail at times and need to be manually changed by the driver, they do still work underwater. 

Andrew. 

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[Greg Sutherland]

Here is a video of how the NSW Tramways points worked.

No flooding problems and no problems with the Melbourne style springs being jammed by road debris.

https://www.sydneytramwaymuseum.com.au/tramfans/tracks/operation-of-sydney-style-points/

Greg

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[Matthew Geier]

Although periodically someone had to get in there and shovel out all the accumulated muck.

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[Peter Bruce]

Mal and all, that M&MTB connies technique definitely frowned upon, too easy to hurt yourself.

Anyway attached is a view taken from the tower of St. Dominic's church. Riversdale Road looking west towards the Melbourne CBD. Taken by a friend of my sister, John Bailey.

Regards to all,

Peter Bruce.

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[David Batho]

Ha. Loving the puns.

David

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[David Batho]

Thank you, everyone, for your answers.

David

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<RiversdaleRd.jpg>

[David Batho]

Okay, so pushed rather than pulled, which is what I expected, hence wondering about the lack of a hook.

David