Re: [TramsDownUnder] Sydney metro vs trains popularity

[tressteleg1]





Hello Bob,

Since you wrote, I have processed video I took early this year running between Sydenham and Chatswood. From memory, dwell time was generally arbitrary around 38 seconds. Anyway the video shows the number of seconds edited out, based on the momentt the train stops until just before it starts to move again. Fractions of second were rounded up or down as is relevant. 

I previously had a Sydney driver who  let me in the cab for making some videos, and others he recorded by himself. Several of these were put on YouTube, but somehow some unknown person worked out who we both were and told us if they were not removed immediately, they would dob my driver in to management for breaking the rules. Nevertheless they are  still on YouTube but kept as private.

Anyway I checked one of these running on the Bankstown line, and dwell  times were also around 40 seconds, but I put that down to rather sloppy timetabling  which besets Sydney these days.

 

 I also checked one of my Melbourne videos, a morning peak run inbound on the Sandringham line. Despite healthy loadings on some of the platforms, the dwell time for a number of stations was 24 seconds which is quite commendable.

Sydney Metro Front Window View Sydenham to Chatswood.

https://youtu.be/2V1ehaYI7v4

Cheers,

Richard

On 27 Sep 2025, at 5:27 pm, Robert Taaffe <rtaa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Richard

There is a minimum dwell time no matter the time of day - open doors, allow people to time to get off including late runners, close doors, ring bell, driver react. 15 - 20 secs probably the reasonable minimum.

What I was getting at with my observations was what was possible. 

Bob

On 27 Sep 2025, at 5:04 pm, 'Richard Youl' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Hi Bob, 

This tends to back up what you just said. 

Parliament and Wynyard were chosen  being the last city station before heading to the suburbs. 

The pause time difference was only a few seconds. The DD trains swallowed up a lot more people but without delay. The 3 door SD trains were hampered by more people trying to shove into trains already essentially full. 

Sydney Metro dwell times are preset, places like MAC Uni having quite long dwell, totally unnecessary in the off peak. And in May getting on at Crows Nest  in the AM peak was hopeless due to overcrowding. 

Cheers,

Richard

What is Best? Single Deck or Double Deck trains?

https://youtu.be/KhS31Mc0cfs

On 25 Sep 2025, at 6:53 pm, Robert Taaffe <rtaa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Re the loading/dwell time. If you talk to Sydney drivers they will tell you that at most stations passengers, in the main, either get on or off. Those going both ways in numbers are at some junctions and the city stations like Town Hall and Wynyard and Central Electric and at those additional dwell time is allowed. Dwell time as not as big an issue as everyone keeps making out.

BobT

On 25 Sep 2025, at 5:55 pm, 'David Batho' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Sorry for being ‘bit late’ on this. The problem with double-deckers is “dwell time” at stations, which is what Tony is getting at with his comments. If you think about it, a double decker has the same door space (approximately) as the old single deckers had, but you have about 1.5 to 1.75 time the people trying to get through them, not to mention the stairs from downstairs and upstairs are narrower than the doorways from the old single deck saloons to the vestibule were. I wonder whether the original Bradfield cars, with several doorways per side rather than just two like the later cars, caused a similar increase in dwell time to that created by the introduction of double deck trains.

David (Hoping I’ve expressed myself clearly!)

On 24 Jul 2025, at 4:17 pm, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Sorry for the multiple posting of this article. Google Groups was showing that it hadn't posted, so naturally I kept on trying, then they all got posted at once.

Sydney Trains will never perform like the metro, even if all other factors are improved it's not possible with double deck trains. Their layout simply doesn't have the efficiency of a single deck train. Also, apart from the journey time, there's reliability, frequency and accessibility, all of which the suburban service has none of. The reliability is affected by failures cascading from line to line and by industrial action, due to trains having crews. A double deck system can't sustain a 2 minute or better headway that an automated metro can. Paris RER A, even with its three-door double deckers, can't sustain a 2 minute headway without relieving it at intervals. Sydney's trains with two doors (hemmed in by stairs on the inside) don't have a hope. The lack of accessibility between platform and train can never be solved on Sydney Trains, except by the time consuming process of crew getting out and putting up a ramp, which obviously affects the timetable. Also the metro is much safer, with barriers to people falling and otherwise injuring or killing themselves.

Lastly, metro has won the PR battle with the public. Everybody loves it and nobody, except a few diehard train enthusiasts and union members, likes the suburban trains any longer. Years of unreliability and industrial disruption have really put Sydneysiders off the suburban system. It's worth noting that the reliability of the intercity system is even worse and the most comfortable (though not accessible) train on that system is about to come to the end of its service. 

Tony P

On Thursday, 24 July 2025 at 15:23:56 UTC+10 Matthew Geier wrote:

Also the 4G deckers have had their performance limited to match the older trains and stay with in the power supply limits of the old substations. If they had adequate power supplies and the power limit settings changed. (And the timetabling with generous recovery time changed) they could perform much better on the speed front. Unfortunately most of the drivers working now never had the experience of thrashing every last bit of performance out of their trains like the drivers of those old single deckers did.

And Sydney commuters have poor door discipline. I do wonder what platform doors would do for the city circle and eastern suburbs trains time keeping in the peak. Platforms doors open for 30 seconds only.

On 24/7/25 15:15, 'Richard Youl' via TramsDownUnder wrote:

And if the tunnels were built big enough for double deck Trains, they had the same horsepower per ton ratio as the Metro Trains, and the same computer control, all those people would have a seat and still get there at the same time. 

At Crows Nest one morning peak hour city bound, I had to let one train go because it was overcrowded, and the second one was not much better.

Constantly dumbing down the rail timetable since the Sydney Olympics has done nobody any good. For example, North Sydney to Central used to take 10 minutes with the underpowered single deck trains in the past. Now today’s much stronger trains to take 14 minutes! Why?

Richard

On 24 Jul 2025, at 2:54 pm, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



I've been saying for years that people value journey time in particular most on public transport.

Tony P

[quote]

Metro vs Sydney Trains: Which service wins peak hour battle?

The Daily Telegraph put the Metro and Sydney Trains to the test this week to see if Sydneysiders prefer efficiency over comfort during their morning peak-hour commute.

Jack Crawley and Harrison Finlay

2 min read

July 24, 2025 - 2:18PM

2 Comments

Metro vs Sydney Trains: The great divide revealed.

NSW

Don't miss out on the headlines from NSW. Followed categories will be added to My News.

Sydney’s transport system is a tale of two cities.

A once-bustling overground rail system – plagued with delays – now boasting enough room for commuters to lay down, and a lighting-fast Metro service which sees commuters crammed in like sardines.

The Daily Telegraph has put the two transport systems to the test this week to see if Sydneysiders prefer efficiency over comfort during their morning peak-hour commute, with two reporters hopping on the Metro and Sydney Trains into Central Station from Chatswood.

Metro vs Train: A tale of two commutes

The Daily... more

Upon arrival at the platforms, it was quickly evident that most people use the stop to switch onto the driverless Metro.

Boarding the 7:37am service from Chatswood Station, reporter Jack Crawley squeezed into the sardine can-like Metro carriage, with little room to spare.

Daily Telegraph journalist Jack Crawley couldn’t get a seat this morning on the metro from Chatswood into central as the train service was jam packed. Picture: Thomas Lisson

At the same time, reporter Harrison Finlay hopped on the Tangara train, which was spacious and quiet, with most people getting a seat with plenty of room.

With the exception of a few travellers exiting the Metro at the popular CBD stops of Martin Place, Gadigal, and Barangaroo, the driverless service remained crammed until arriving at Central Station at 7:52am.

After 15 minutes of getting up close and personal with strangers, Crawley could finally move around freely.

The T1 line from Chatswood to Central at 7:38am during the Thursday morning peak-hour was quiet due to many swapping to use the Metro. Picture: Supplied.

At the same time, Finlay hadn’t even reached the Harbour Bridge, making him ponder whether getting out and swimming across would be quicker.

Nearly 20 minutes behind, the old T1 slowly crept over “the coathanger” with nearly empty carriages, enough room for our reporter to relax and consider putting his feet up.

It was a shock to think this train was heading into the CBD right in the middle of peak-hour.

Twenty-one minutes after Crawley and his speedy Metro hit Central, Finlay and his snail-paced Tangara rolled into Sydney’s main station.

Bronte Cavallero and Zac Harb use the metro service regularly to get into the city. Picture: Thomas Lisson

The Daily Telegraph revealed data on Wednesday showing the Sydney train network had it’s worst punctuality in years, failing to meet it’s targets every month of the last financial year.

The data showed that a massive 16 per-cent of trains did not run on time, making it the highest recorded since the inception of the public dataset in 2019.

Young commuting couple Bronte Cavallero and Zac Harb say the Metro has cut their commute “in half.”

“It’s just so efficient,” said Ms Cavallero.

“It’s the best,” said Mr Harb. “I can get from my door to my work in 11 minutes.”

Aside from the obvious convenience to their travel time, the pair said the next biggest draw to the Metro was its comfort, labelling it “nice, clean, and spacious.”

“We definitely prioritise always getting the Metro when we can,” said Ms Cavallero.

“Obviously, it depends on where you are going, but we’ll always try and get the Metro,” said Mr Harb.

Mr Harb, an architect by trade, says that the Metro and its station spaces are ‘amazing’ by design, and his professional appreciation plays a role in their commuting selections.

So, to our commuters in the north of Sydney, take note: if you want fast and efficient, take the Metro.

If you want an excuse to rock up late to work, take the train.

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[Robert Taaffe]

Hello Richard

I suspect TP is rather one eyed when it comes to doors and metros. 

There is nothing wrong with a 2 door arrangement as in the mid 1930s they were terminating 37 trains per hour at St James (the signalling was designed for 30). These figures are correct and were taken from a recorder attached to a particular track relay. it was not one off but done every day. Some slick work indeed.

On the Wynyard side it was designed as 42 trains per hour. Both systems were dumbed down when the 1990s resignalling took place. 

I think the Metro can only achieve what parts of the classic system are still achieving today. As you know at most times such headways are not necessary but the point I was trying to make with my original comment was that the classic system can achieve the same headways including loading times that the Metro does or better.

Part of the slowness of the classic is the slackness of the timetable and poor training. My driver contact said that at most stations people are either getting on or off and only at a few stations do they do both and at such stations like Town Hall, Wynyard or Central a dwell of 30 sec is allowed in the timetable. We could do better if we tried.

What really bugs me is they rubbish the classic system and talk up the Metro and an informed Blind Freddy can tell it is all spin doctoring. The capacity of the City Railway is much more than the Metro such as each double deck train seats at least twice as many as a metro even if it had 8 cars and standees would be at least the same if not more.

Similarly climbing the grade, if you look at the steep grade climbing from the Lane Cove River, from memory it was only the Tangaras that had problems due to there small motors. I would imagine the grades from under the Harbour would be no worse and therefore most of our classic rolling stock would be OK.

Enough of my rambles but I do get annoyed from the nonsense that some organisations and people peddle.

Keep up your good work

Bob

 

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[TP]

Says Bob, spouting a lot of out-of-date stuff himself!

Firstly, technological comparisons with the 1930s are irrelevant. All public transport had manual or open doors and people were hopping on and off while the vehicle was still moving. The average dwell on the trams in the interwar period was 8 seconds. Second, the suburban system didn't have a very big job to do in the 1930s. The trams were still moving the bulk of people, twice as many as the trains. The trains had an operating environment in which they could run to their optimum efficiency. Then for a long time, from the 1950s to the 1990s, they had little patronage growth to burden them with - nevertheless they were far from reliable.

Coming to today, with major patronage growth, increased safety practices including electro-mechanical doors and platform screen doors, a requirement for unassisted accessibility, any system designed for an earlier era is going to feel the pressure. On any city public transport vehicle, a set of double-doors about every five linear metres is considered necessary for efficient crowd processing, that's about three doors in a 20 metre vehicle (Perth was considering four doors for their C series at one stage but presumably decided to compromise on seating, though the Sydney Metro experience is that people are quite happy to stand if the journey is quick). Certainly Bind Freddy seems to have gone for the metro in a big way.

As for capacity, the metro is a sleeping giant, presently using less than half its design capacity. I've provided all the capacity figures in a recent post, so won't go over them again. Gradients - 1:36 on Epping Chatswood. Metro climbs 1:24, so it can take a much straighter run (thus saving time and distance) between two points. It's a damned shame that ECRL was built before the metro. It wouldn't have had to take that wasteful Cooks Tour up to Lindfield in order to get the double-deckers up the grade to Chatswood. 

Let go of the past.

Tony P