Fast electric trams?

[Mal Rowe]

For some time I have been searching for an Adelaide tram timetable from when the H type trams were running and today I found it.

I recalled having a very fast ride one evening in 2006 at the very end of H type operation.

During the day, the time from Moseley Square in Glenelg to Victoria Square was 29 minutes.

From the 5:40pm tram on that time was dropped to 24 minutes - requiring some fast running.

I had a very fast, and enjoyable ride accompanied by the scream of straight cut gears. My pic attached.

I compared the current journey time - with new fast trams and one (or two?) extra tram overpasses on the route.

Not impressed!  The published timetable does not show a time at Victoria Square, but the time from Moseley Square to South Terrace is 27 minutes.

I assume at least another 3 or 4 minutes would pass by before the tram arrived at Victoria Square.

Mal Rowe - who will always remember that evening run on the H

[Mark Skinner]

This is pure speculation, so I invite everyone to pour scorn on it if they wish, but I suspect that the schedule speed is limited by the Citadis on open ballast track. They seem to hunt a bit if there's even the slightest excuse.

If that's the case, the whole schedule is limited because of that. Again, just my guess.

Mark Skinner 

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[Richard Youl]

Hi Mal,

Did you find a paper copy of that timetable or just a scan? If is just a scan I have 4 paper copies and could be happy to send you one and an extra one if you have a worthy friend. 

There was no mucking around on those express runs, something totally lacking these days. I suppose with a stub terminus it could get a bit crowded if 2 were all but nose to tail by Jetty Rd. 

Cheers,

Richard

On 19 May 2026, at 5:03 pm, Mal Rowe <mal....@gmail.com> wrote:



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<Glelg timetable 2000 (1).jpg>

<Glelg timetable 2000 (2).jpg>

<358 near Goodwood 17Feb2006.JPG>

[Richard Youl]

Adelaide tram drivers have told me that the Flexities ride better than Citadis, while Sydney L1 drivers told me that Citadis ride better than CAF! 

So it’s quite possible that the line is governed by the Citadis, but the fast runs were the result of skipping some stops, I believe, so lack of express runs would be a major factor today.

Richard

On 19 May 2026, at 5:20 pm, Mark Skinner <eme...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[TP]

For comparison, as far as I can determine, the distance between Moseley Square and Victoria Square is 10.8 km with 16 optional intermediate stops. I don't know what is the average number of actual stops made during trips. All but about 1.5 km of the line are on ROW, the rest on street, in separated lanes in the city but not in Glenelg.

As usual, my benchmark is the Prague operation and a similar "light rail" line is line 17 which follows the river south of the city to the suburb of Modřany. A similar 10.8 km section on this line is between Sídliště Modřany and  Jiráskovo náměstí in the city, with 16 compulsory intermediate stops. The trip takes 24 minutes. There are 6.8 km of separated ROW with a 60 km/h limit and 4 km on street (but separated from traffic) with a 50 km/h limit.

As well as deploying properly designed trams, good use is made of the loud pedal and the dynamic braking. Make of it what you will!

Tony P

(who knows that there is a way of moving trams quickly, but it's rather elusive in Australia nowadays)

[TP]

As a side-thought in these matters, my mind always strays to Sydney Light Rail routes L2 and L3 which are each only 8.5 km long and in their own exclusive lanes with (mostly) traffic light priority, with only 12 and 13 compulsory intermediate stops respectively and take 32 minutes each. Fair dinkum - and we wonder why bus commuters from south of Kingsford are complaining that their journeys to the city are taking 10 to 20 minutes longer with the interchange to light rail than they used to in direct buses. How to win hearts and minds.

If it was possible to dump Sydney's Citadis and CAFs offshore as an artificial fishing reef, I would provide the ship. All the "heavy rail experts" who contributed to this clusterf**k can join them.

Tony P

(still doggedly optimistic)

[Matthew Geier]

The tram drivers of those Eastern European operations 'drive with
intent'. They run hard and fast. Every one on the ground knows to stay
out of the way.

Some of these systems run coupled sets and don't feel the need to put
barriers and signs stating 'danger of death' on the couplings. People
just 'know'.

Our lot drive so timidly they think Melbourne is fast.

That said, despite low speeds and timid driving, the number of vehicle
collisions L4 has had is somewhat concerning. Car drivers out west must
be all half blind or something, How can you NOT see something as large
as a 7 selection Urbos 100 ?(And they are bright red - not as if they
have a stealth livery!)

[Mal Rowe]

Thanks Richard,

I do have paper copies.

Appreciate the offer, but not needed this time.

Mal

[Mal Rowe]

On 20/05/2026 08:44, 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> The tram drivers of those Eastern European operations 'drive with
> intent'. They run hard and fast. Every one on the ground knows to stay
> out of the way.
>

Must be something in the personality.

The driver of the H on my memorable journey back in 2006 was a woman of
Eastern European background.

She drove so fast that at the two stops on the reserved right of way
where passengers were waiting she had to slam on the brakes and then
back up to the platform!

The track had been relaid not long before my visit - using the existing
rail.  The contractors did not take account of railhead wear and profile
resulting in the strange wear pattern on the rail head visible in the
attached photo.  Points and crossings all had speed restrictions. The
rail was later replaced.

Mal Rowe enjoying the memory

[TP]

That lady must have thought that she was still driving a PCC. I remember Charles, who used to contribute to this forum, telling us about his trip in a PCC in, I think, Yugoslavia, with a lady driver who went around the terminus loop like a fairground ride and took off fast, knitting while she drove (pedal driven) and the faster she drove, the faster she knitted. 

The former Sydney trams were quick and I recall reading a news interview with the driver of the last tram in 1961 who was a Czech immigrant. A lot of tram drivers transferred to become bus drivers after the system closed and, during the 1960s at least, the government buses were driven quite frenetically until these guys gradually retired. I remember a bus speeding around the corner of Harris St and Broadway so fast that the rear wheels were tramping sideways across the road. No doubt the depot engineers had something to say about wear and tear,

Those were the days. Now it's a funeral procession.

Tony P

[Mal Rowe]

On 20/05/2026 11:40, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> The former Sydney trams were quick and I recall reading a news
> interview with the driver of the last tram in 1961 who was a Czech
> immigrant.

A couple of weeks ago one of my friends at the Melbourne Tram Museum
asked me if I knew the top speed of a W2.

I didn't and guessed about 40mph.

He told me it was a bit higher than that - 80mph!

I was skeptical until he told me that there was evidence - the tram
driver was booked and charged for speeding by the police.

Mal Rowe -= assuming it was on a long downhill run with controller off.

[Richard Youl]

Down a big hill - Yes. Cut off power - NO!

South Melbourne had one W run to West Coburg in the evening peak.

Outbound there is a significant valley, possibly the dip to Moreland Rd where the road traffic was often fairly light and when northbound I prayed that nobody pulled the cord for the stop at the bottom, and if not it was full power until necessary to cut off for the stop at the top of the hill.

What is incredible is that the W flew up the other side losing little speed, and several times faster than if the stop at the bottom was required.

I’m no electrical engineer but suspect that the current drain was so slight that some form of weak field was created, resulting in the rapid climb.

Richard

> On 20 May 2026, at 12:04 pm, Mal Rowe <mal....@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Greg Sutherland]

Certainly I can recall being on a Sydney AEC double decker with an ex DGT tramdriver doing about 70 mph down hill in angel gear (neutral) with destination 'Special'.  The flexing of the body panels was most interesting and melodic.

Greg

[Mark Skinner]

Here's a version. Pretty dark really. The writing says: "I don't want to be your last tram', 'Help me not to kill', 'Trams 0: Pedestrians 0', and 'Don't jump under my wheels'. The 'score' above seems to be updated, as I've seen versions with numbers other than zero.

Mark Skinner

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[TP]

DPP is running a pretty heart-stopping safety campaign at present.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozUpnHnj2Y0

Tony P

[bblun...@yahoo.com]

The govo buses of that era were geared and governed for a top speed of around 28-30 mph, that's 45-48 km/hr. With a good safe down hill run they might have got up to 55. One of my regular bus routes at that time was along Moore Park Rd behind the Showgrounds which had a long gentle slope and no interfering cross traffic or stops. "Adventurous" drivers would get the engine on to the governor, then slip into neutral (with the engine still running flat out) and let gravity give it the extra 5. Considering the speed of of other vehicles at the time, this probably was considered "frenetic". They has "worm-drive" diffs, and any faster speed would have destroyed them. The braking systems were barely adequate also. 

The Leopards of the mid 60s onwards had a bit more power and maybe a bit more speed, but again the worm drive crippled them.

Brian.

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[TP]

The "wild driving" of the government buses at that time was not in terms of maximum speed, but due to general handling - acceleration and braking, going around curves etc, not as though they were transporting eggs, so to speak. The maximum speed was governed. I lived near where buses would take a short-cut to Ryde depot at the end of their runs and they had a distinct "woofing" sound. My dad, who was a DGT engineer at the time, said it was the governor being pushed against its limit. He said the drivers treated the buses very roughly and frequently disregarded basic safety, leading to accidents. The two overturned double deckers at Manly in the late 1940s, with many deaths and injuries, must have influenced the decision to change to single deckers and would have made Manly passengers recall the trams, withdrawn in 1939, with nostalgia - fast, yet safer.

Trams are governed for the maximum speed of their systems nowadays too. If not governed, they could typically easily exceed 100 km/h. But, as I always say, it's average speed that makes the difference, not maximum speed. Acceleration, deceleration, being able to hold to line speed, and dwell time are more significant.

Tony P

[John Wayman]

I agree with Richard, fastest speeds with any W class tram were obtained by a combination of a long downhill run and judicious use of power.

Highest speeds were obtained in the evenings when the power was better with fewer trams on the routes.

When powering down a hill you had make sure to cut off power before blowing the tram's line breaker and/or the substation!

At Camberwell depot, we had the longest hills, and high speeds could be attained at night,

Cheers

John Wayman

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From: 'Richard Youl' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2026 12:48 PM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Fast electric trams?

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[Andrew Highriser]

I have heard the story about the driver being booked for speeding, but it was before 1979 and I really can't imagine a W tram at 80 mph, nearly 130 km/h. I can believe 80 km/h. Even a Z1 tram was quite scary at 80 km/h. Z3 trams, no problem, nor for subsequent A and B trams, and then it all went horribly wrong with C and D trams.

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[Richard Youl]

Thanks John. I never popped the power on the 55 (now 58) as our only pm run was in the peak hour when all the other trams were Z class dragging down the voltage so badly that sometimes the W linebreaker would not close.  Today’s drivers have no idea what fun was possible in the past with trams now governed to 65 km/h and more and more speed limit signs popping up everywhere. 

However I popped the power once powering through the derelict special work on St Kilda Rd, possibly at Commercial Rd, while trying to catch up time on the rotten 16 to St Kilda Beach, always a race against the clock. There was an almighty BANG and the lights went dim for several seconds then came on normally. I took it carefully through junctions and crossovers after that and had no further trouble. 

One evening at Port Junction heading towards Clarendon St I got a birds-eye view of a tram doing Rt. 10 when the driver must have powered thought the Light Rail Junction. There was an almighty flash from under the W. It carried on to the south. 

My experiences with Camber routes at night was the Wattle Park line decades before I became a trammie thanks to Mick Duncan and the late Robert Aspinall. 

Certainly line voltage could creep higher at night with a lot less trams sucking the power. 

Richard

On 21 May 2026, at 2:10 pm, John Wayman <johnwa...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Richard Youl]

I also doubt 80 in a W2. Their wheels are too small. 

Maybe 80 in a ‘big’ W with a good long and steep descent. I was certainly clocked at 70 (possible a few km more due to conservative car speedometers) in Gilbert Rd between Bell St and Miller Rd one night. 

The late Robert Aspinall told me his scrubber speed was clocked around 80 but I forget whether it was police or a civilian who expressed astonishment that such a 4 wheeler could go that fast but with 33” wheels and 2 motors of ?60 HP I believe it possible. 

Richard

On 21 May 2026, at 6:23 pm, Andrew Highriser <andrewhi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Alex Hunter]

I’m not sure that you’d get much more than 40kmh out of a W2 on 26” wheels. 

The motors would reach full field saturation at 35-40 kmh  and would not get any faster without field diversion. 

So it does bring into question some stories being quite right…

Cheers Alex 

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[p...@bigpond.com]

In my time with the MMTB (1974-1976), I recall the mid evening inbound trips from Wattle Park were rather quiet. There was one at 2125 as I recall that would very rarely have any passengers until Swan Street, Richmond, and then only a handful.

There were quite a few “enthusiasts” at Camberwell at that time and if you had a “sympathetic” conductor you could get up to a little mischief.

So, on this trip at 2125, I remember on one of several occasions, punching the clock on time and then waiting for about seven or eight minutes. It would have been a “big” car because the W2s had all run in after the middle shifts had finished (usually by 2030). I went like the clappers to Warrigal Road (that may have been a compulsory stop). Then down the hill past the Through Road “Bundy” (that you conveniently forgot to punch on this occasion) and up to the flat section near Highfield Park.

Slowed down at the Riversdale crossover to avoid any possibility of a dewirement then gingerly to Wattle Valley Road that, I don’t recall but probably didn’t have traffic lights more than 50 years ago.

Then you literally screamed down the grade through Middle Camberwell and pulled up smoothly for the compulsory stop before the Riversdale gates.

By then you were on time, so “normal speed” to Camberwell Junction where, sometimes, an inspector was still on duty. As I recall, the inspectors moved around after the evening peak, doing follow ups on drivers and sometimes checking tickets. The inspectors came up through the ranks so I guess they had a good idea of the sort of shenanigans that may have occurred on the almost deserted mid evening streets in some suburbs.

Our beloved MMTB (1919-1983).

Paul

[Mick Duncan]

Gday  Mal, All

You cant beat the noise from spur gears,esp from BTH265 motors,
a sort of singing howl.  wonderful

Gee I loved driving cars with 265 motors

433 at Camberwell was the best

Taits and Doggies with GE237 motors were very good

Memories,   Mick

[Mick Duncan]

Gday  Richard,All

The newer the Tram,the slower the scheduled speed,not the trams fault
maybe not in Canberra or the Gold Coast

How sad

I miss going in full parallel most of the time after 8PM after the
running times were cut about 1973,the end of road dragging

Cheers,    Mick 

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[Mick Duncan]

Gday  Mal,All

776 at Malvern was the fastest tram I drove,being a Clyde it weighed
about 16 tons and thus was 2 tons lighter than a SW6-7

The balancing speed of a No 15 truck car is 32 MPH on the flat with
247 motors and 28" wheels

Motors dont always deliver the exactly the same power,due to air gaps
between the armature and the field coils and weird things with the windings

A W2 with 247 motors and 28" wheels could also fly

One night I was on the up in St kilda Rd and hadnt stopped after
Commercial Rd and flying along,in the dip before Toorak Rd, I think
it was doing about 40MPH,I didnt cut off till soon before the shunt
and made a fairly hard brake app to stop at Domain Rd

This was the best high speed run I ever had,I loved it

One night running in from Wattle Pk,in a Big Car,I flew down from
Trafalgar Rd and had to stop at the Railway crossing at Riversdale
for a train

A bloke in a FJ Holden beside me said he didnt know trams could go so
fast,I asked him how fast and he said 50 MPH

I cant prove the speeds,but they wouldnt be far out

Anything over about 50MPH down hill is very unlikely,over that speed
the motors would be likeky to bird cage,being the armature windings
flying off due to centrifugal speed and jammimg against the fields

Cheers,   Mick,really missing the good old days without OHS

[TP]

Not true of newer trams Mick, as you can see if you go to Europe (well at least Central and Eastern Europe). Practically all of the new trams in Australia have fixed trucks and that constrains their performance, unless running in a straight line (like Canberra and Gold Coast). Some of the earlier new ones, though, suffer from yawing, even in a straight line.

Tony P

(no fan of French and Spanish crap)

[Geoff Olsen]

Mick,
You have now mentioned bird cage which crossed my mind whilst perusing this ongoing discussion. I wasn't going to bring the subject up but if that happens you will no doubt agree that the tram's speed will be reduced somewhat, like stopped:-)

Cheers, Geoff O.

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Mick Duncan' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 23 May 2026 2:55 AM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Fast electric trams?

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[noe...@iinet.net.au]

Mick,

You need to take 407 for a run up to St Aidan’s Drive in full parallel from the loop.

 

Noel, also a fan of SGT’s.

 

From: 'Mick Duncan' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 22 May 2026 11:43 PM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Fast electric trams?

 

Gday  Mal, All

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[Mick Duncan]

Gday  Noel

Id love to but Tony wouldnt let me

Cheers,   Mick

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