Route 57 North Melbourne tram corridor

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brian_weedon

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Dec 5, 2025, 12:56:13 AMDec 5
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The  Department of Transport and Planning has published its proposed tram stop alterations on the inner section of Route 57.

In some instances, the stops will be rationalised. There will also be some traffic management measures to reduce delays to trams.

Brian Weedon


north-melbourne-ngt-tram-stop-upgrades-howard_victoria_sts.jpg

Robert Smith

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Dec 5, 2025, 7:09:06 PMDec 5
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Replacing non-accessible stops with non-accessible stops, I think this is against the legislation if it was pre-December 2022. But as they have completely ignored the deadline, it is definitely against the legislation.

Mal Rowe

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Dec 5, 2025, 7:37:44 PMDec 5
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On 06/12/2025 11:09, Robert Smith wrote:
> Replacing non-accessible stops with non-accessible stops, I think this
> is against the legislation if it was pre-December 2022. But as they
> have completely ignored the deadline, it is definitely against the
> legislation.
>
It's not clear in the provided documentation whether the stops will be
platform stops or not.  The consultation is about location, not stop design.

My guess is that platform stops will be installed.  However the only
indication of this is the abolition of parking spaces - required for the
greater width of a platform stop.

Mal Rowe pleased to finally see some alignment between low floor trams
and platform stops.

Robert Smith

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Dec 5, 2025, 9:35:18 PMDec 5
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From the documentation for Errol St “Have a tram flag to identify the tram stop location.” This means a kerbside stop, also 3 car parks per side, an accessible stop would need about 10 per side.
The other 2 stops "Provide wider safety zones that offer more space for passengers to wait at the tram stop"




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TP

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Dec 6, 2025, 1:06:57 AMDec 6
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It's clear from the drawings that all they're doing is creating safer kerbside stops. If it's not a new stop they're creating then it's not going against the legislation , they're just making good an existing ground-level safety zone.

A major factor mitigating against the rollout of platform stops in Melbourne is the closeness of existing kerbside stops. A typical standard distance between tram stops in Europe is about 500 metres. That means a walk of about 250 metres to get to a stop. I get a sense of this in the distance between my front gate and the nearest bus stop, about 250 metres. It's nothing. Having stops 200 metres apart is almost like having a personal limo service to your front door, but I sense there would be a bit of pushback from locals on any attempt to diminish this red-carpet facility and politicians are notoriously sensitive to local uprisings. 

The trouble is that having platform stops closer than  500 metres increases the cost of a rollout of them enormously, which probably, together with unwillingness to fund them, largely explains the delay.

Tony P

Robert Smith

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Dec 6, 2025, 2:40:06 AMDec 6
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Tony P
That’s the reason that they intend to cut the present number of stops by 25%.

Regards

Robert
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Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2025 5:06:56 PM
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Malcolm Rowe

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Dec 6, 2025, 3:33:09 AMDec 6
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Thanks Robert, you are probably right and I agree that if so it is disappointing. 

From Mal in transit

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Robert Smith

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Dec 6, 2025, 3:44:44 AMDec 6
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The 25% reduction in stocks is directly from the DOT within the auditor general’s update

Regards

Robert
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Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2025 7:33:03 PM

brian_weedon

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Dec 7, 2025, 5:59:35 PMDec 7
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There are two separate issues at play here. 

The first is that this corridor is the only location on the system where articulated cars are barred from operating. This results from the short safety zones within which all the doors of an articulated car won't fit. One quirky outcome is that Showgrounds extras run by B class trams use the Flemington Road/Haymarket route.

The reconfiguration of these stops is clearly a very high priority given the introduction of the G class trams next year.

The other constraint is time. The Epsom Road stop required a two week closure. I suspect there is now insufficient time to construct level access stops, and the  Department of Transport and Planning has taken a decision to make this a two stage project. The first stage will be the construction of the new stops with road level boarding, and stage two will see the addition of level access platforms.

The  Department of Transport and Planning should have been more upfront about these issues as the Public Transport Users Association and disability lobby groups will continue to raise this matter during the course of this project. And this is a headache for the Government as the next state election is in November 2026.

Brian Weedon

Robert Smith

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Dec 7, 2025, 7:00:27 PMDec 7
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HI Brian,

IF B Class trams are banned from the route, does that mean that when RT59 uses that route they run express from the Abbotsford / Queensbury (Level Access) to the city? Also regarding timing RT59 is the first route to receive rolling stock (Maybe after 82), this uses about 25 trams per day, at the current contracted rate 25 per year, RT 57 will not see the first one until mid 27 to early 28. I think this has more to do with money than timing, the DOT has an unfunded Level access stop plan, according to the AG’s report.

Rob.
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Date: Monday, 8 December 2025 at 09:59
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Bob Pearce

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Dec 7, 2025, 7:14:26 PMDec 7
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Hi all,

 

I seem to recall from my various visits to Melbourne back in the 80s and 90s that a tram stop in the suburbs was marked by a sign on a pole and usually located near an intersection, many with light signals.

 

It also didn’t seem to matter what the length of a tram was either, even after the Bs commenced running, I can’t remember anything special about the stops.

Intending passengers went to the part of the tram where they wanted to board, and there didn’t seem to be any problem with that.

 

In the city there were the safety zones, and even in the ‘burbs’ some stops had them as well.

Not that there was anything special about them per se, usually some yellow lines and safety rails with a concrete blob at the start of them to encourage the motorists to keep out of them.

 

At a stop, one relied on the motorist stopping to allow passengers to walk from the kerb to the tram or vice versa, and I imagine that there were accidents etc. Certainly it was not perfect, but it seemed to work.

I’ve now seen elevated stops, to suit low floor tram sets, which can be driven across by motorists and again one has to rely on the motorist to stop when a tram is present (I guess there have been some who has driven off an elevated stop onto the road by not following the guide lines but I haven’t seen an example of that (yet)).

 

Now that most of the world has gone “all Disabled Recognition Compliant - DCR” with wheelchairs, gophers, walk frames and so on now seeming to be at the forefront of modern PT thinking – as it should be (I’m not knocking DCR compliance by any means, after all I’m getting older by the minute and I’m not as spritely or agile as I once was), it seems to be creating some difficulty to achieve compliance on some routes.

Well, all I can say (well – write anyway) is ‘Rome wasn’t built in a day” If there is time taken to ensure DCR compliance with longer trams as well as the ordinary single length trams (W or Z types for example) then so be it.

 

Given that apparently the acquisition of trams is favouring longer combinations (C types and longer, for example), eventually all tram routes will have to have longer DCR stops and I guess they will at some point in time.

But as any PT planner knows, there are only so many $$s to go around – and they have to be used for all sorts of expenditure items, not just tram stops.

 

One issue (or trap) I hope that is not fallen into is deciding to not standardise the length of the stops (i.e. tailoring them to suit the class of tram for that particular route.)

In other words I hope that stops become a standard length, capable of suiting any type or length of tram that it is possible to operate over any route.

As Brian Weedon wrote “There are two separate issues at play here. The first is that this corridor is the only location on the system where articulated cars are barred from operating. This results from the short safety zones within which all the doors of an articulated car won't fit. One quirky outcome is that Showgrounds extras run by B class trams use the Flemington Road/Haymarket route.”

 

There is nothing worse that not being able to run any class of stock over any route because of clearances, or length of stops where not all doors fit.

 

I also imagine there will come a time where a decision will have to be made to not have combination tram sets longer than some length (it could be seven parts for example) and tram sets cannot be longer – ever as a worldwide standard.

I can see that Melbourne will end up with a tram fleet of so many classes of different lengths that it will become a scheduler’s nightmare trying to set a timetable for the network because of the different types of trams that operate.

 

Yes, yes, I know that different depots exist, that tram types are allocated to certain depots, and that each depot works certain routes only, but the issue remains. The network is not suited to operate any class of tram at any time on any route.

And that is not good.

I recall seeing signs at some railway stations advising passengers to travel in the centre car or carriage of a train because the lead or end of the train would not be on the platform at some stations. How anybody didn’t get hurt amazes me.

Imagine the hue and cry if those days came back.

Imagine being told that you cannot catch a 57 tram because the stops aren’t long enough, but you can get another route tram which just happens to use the same street for part of its journey because it will fit onto the stop.

Well okay, perhaps that day is not here yet, but it is becoming more possible every day.

 

Bob in Perth trying to not get too many thoughts mixed up.

Robert Smith

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Dec 7, 2025, 8:36:31 PMDec 7
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Hi Bob,

In Melbourne, there is still hundreds of kerbside stops, and the only safety is that they forbid parking for a couple of car lengths. The main issue is Australian government legislation DSAPT (Disability Standards for Accessible Public Transport) which was passed in 2002 one of the requirements is that there is level boarding for trams) as ramps are deemed dangerous, requiring all public transport infrastructure to be compliant by December 2022 (3 years ago) and rolling stock compliance by 2032, this legislation is enforceable Australia wide. In Victoria for accessible tram stops, the government is at present completing 2 - 3 per year of about 440 left to be replaced. I think about 350 - 400 have been upgraded in the last 23 years. As for tram rolling stock there is not one in service that is fully DSAPT compliant.
Hence the disbelief the government is doing this.

Rob

Bob Pearce

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Dec 7, 2025, 8:43:44 PMDec 7
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G’day Rob,

What is the cost of and why are only 2 or 3 per year getting done? I take it that is two sides per stop – still doesn’t seem a lot though.

 

And what about the buses? Do they have extendable ramps for wheelchairs and so on like Perth buses do? The buses kneel down, the ramp comes out and whatever - chair, gopher, gets on or off the bus. The ramp is withdrawn, the bus goes back to normal height, doors close and off it goes.

 

As an aside, is there room under a tram to provide something similar – perhaps not all doors, but (say) the ones not over the wheel sets for example?

 

Bob in Perth

Robert Smith

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Dec 7, 2025, 10:35:13 PMDec 7
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Hi Bob, since 2021, 11 stop pairs have been upgraded,  the total cost for tram upgrades including rolling stock, is north of $8b, the only reason I can attribute for the government not doing anything is that they are spending all their money on public transport/car projects that they can have their “Hard Hat” photo opp.

Yes, our buses do have manual ramps that the driver deploys for a wheelchair to get on the only issue I have with this. Is that sometimes seem like suicide rolling down the ramp to get off.

As for ramps on trams, it was decided early on that having ramps on them posed a too great risk for accident / death, from cars not stopping, and yes they are legally required to stop being a tram with it’s door open, or if anyone in on the road.

Rob


Bob Pearce

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Dec 7, 2025, 10:39:35 PMDec 7
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Hi Rob,

Do the buses drop the floor height when the ramp is extended?

 

I can understand the hesitation  with ramps on trams – Mr, Mrs, Ms Joe Public are sometimes not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to driving habits.

Bob Pearce

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Dec 7, 2025, 10:40:20 PMDec 7
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Wow, 11 stop pairs in 4 years……………….seems awfully slow to me.

Robert Smith

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Dec 7, 2025, 10:45:13 PMDec 7
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"Wow, 11 stop pairs in 4 years……………….seems awfully slow to me.”

YES and they don’t care.


Robert Smith

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Dec 7, 2025, 10:47:43 PMDec 7
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Bob,

Most drivers do lower the bus, but some don’t, you can’t tell who will, so I avoid thematic all cost’s even though this means I have to travel over 2k in my electric wheelchair to use PT.

Rob

Bob Pearce

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Dec 7, 2025, 11:01:53 PMDec 7
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Oh dear……. Drivers in the west are told to kneel the bus.

The fact that the Volvos are higher off the ground than Mercs has been taken into account, but in all the occasions I have seen the ramp used, the driver has kneeled the bus.

 

However I can understand not having ramps on trams, if only from the timetable POV. The table would be smashed if the ramp had to be used at every stop, as it would likely be, especially in the City.

 

Bob P

TP

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Dec 7, 2025, 11:18:54 PMDec 7
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City buses in Australia are now fully compliant because they have ramps and at least a minimum area of low floor, as well as a kneeling function that lowers the door threshold height at stops. The ramps are typically fold-out type rather than motorised as in Perth, where the dry climate doesn't present much risk of mechanical ramps failing (which they can as a result of mud and other road crap). The only remaining issue is that many bus stops around Australia do not have a proper kerb and paved pad for safely deploying the ramp. Perth, on the other hand, has excellent, fully-formed bus stops (though, Bob, I have experienced drivers not deploying the ramp when they see you struggling with a large suitcase!). Trams can use fold-out ramps too, but they need some sort of platform to fold out on safely. Melbourne doesn't have that.

It's not just about wheelchairs and prams. About 20% of the Australian population has mobility issues of some sort, ranging from arthritis and injuries, to vision impairment, so stairs of any sort are a big issue. Australia generally has been slow to respond to the public transport accessibility issue, regardless of legislation. And it's not just accessibility for the mobility-impaired, it's the efficiency of public transport operations in general. Stairs or steps on mass transit are an impediment to passenger movement and general amenity. They slow down passenger exchange (boarding and alighting) and prevent even distribution of passengers within the vehicle, causing "clumping" of standees and thus preventing vehicles from being filled to their potential capacity. 

The worst offenders are Sydney's double deck trains and the ubiquitous low-entry city bus that has a low floor only at the front of the bus and standees tend to go no further back than the stairs in the aisle, leaving the back half of the bus underutilsed. At last we now have two buses, the local Custom Denning Element and the imported Volvo BZL, that have fully low floors. Trains are typically single deck and Sydney is now getting some relief in this regard via the metro. Surprisingly, ferries now benefit from cleverly-designed accessible gangways and typically have a generous lower deck, regardless of a less accessible upper deck.

As for trams and trains, accessible systems started being built here in the 1990s under the original DDA, but their clearances no longer comply with the 2002 regulations. The initial modernisation of the Perth rail system (except Mandurah and subsequent lines) falls into this category, as well as Sydney's Inner West Light Rail. In practical terms, most of the Perth system is actually OK to use, with occasional issues, like the bloke who fell between the train and platform at Stirling Station, but the Inner West Light Rail in Sydney has, I understand, basically gone back to portable ramps for legal accessibility. Deploying a ramp of course involves the driver getting out and thus delaying the service. Bus drivers, on the other hand, have developed some exceptional skills with fold-out ramps, to the extent that I think it should become an Olympic event! They're certainly much faster than Perth's tedious mechanical ramps that hold up all passenger movement until they're fully deployed. At the other extreme, Sydney's double deck trains require a guard and/or a station attendant to perform this task with a portable ramp, enormously increasing the operational cost.

As for Melbourne trams, well the discussion is here for all to read. I believe that it's part of the overall political neglect of the tram system in Victoria. They talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

Tony P

Robert Smith

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Dec 7, 2025, 11:57:40 PMDec 7
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Tony P,

I think that Sydney buses by your description could do with the same rules that apply on London buses after a discrimination court case. If anyone is in the disabled spot they must move even if this means they must get off the bus including prams, otherwise the bus will not move as it is not allowed to.

As for tram stop upgrades, even though it was not going at the pace required, it just about came to a grinding halt with the current Government in 2004, really only building previously funded stops for the next couple of years.

As for tram ramps, the C Class has an extender that the driver deploys on old level access stops (sometimes)

Train ramps in Sydney same in Melbourne, except the driver deploys, very few level boarding humps, including a brand new platform built for Melbourne Metro

Rob

Robert Smith

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Dec 8, 2025, 12:07:19 AM (14 days ago) Dec 8
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Hi All,

I've thought to discuss, I have just written to the Victorian state public transport minister and shadow minister, as we have an election next year suggesting that considering that disability upgrades for public transport is a nationwide human rights violation, that they should approach the federal government regarding grants or low-cost loans. My guesstimate for Victoria loan to meet DSAPT legislation will cost the state probably $10-$15 billion. And as everyone knows Victoria is broke. But these upgrades must happen ASAP.

Rob

Andrew Highriser

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Dec 8, 2025, 2:06:11 AM (14 days ago) Dec 8
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I was surprised how quickly a Sydney bus driver was out of her seat, ramp down, wheelchair passenger on, ramp back. Thirty seconds? 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/eb2d20b2-fc0a-4dc7-b2d5-a08a9a30bd94n%40googlegroups.com.

Andrew Highriser

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Dec 8, 2025, 2:13:45 AM (14 days ago) Dec 8
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(I guess there have been some who has driven off an elevated stop onto the road by not following the guide lines but I haven’t seen an example of that (yet))

Look at any location where concrete protects tram tracks or pedestrians in some way, and you will see the scars on the concrete where some motorists have come to grief. 

Robert Smith

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Dec 8, 2025, 3:02:01 AM (14 days ago) Dec 8
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Accessible tram stops photos, I can’t find the one I was looking for a car ploughed into a barrier protecting the tram stop and bike lane at the corner of Swanson Street and Bourke Street about 5 to 10 years ago, it was a great photo.


Rob

TP

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Dec 8, 2025, 3:46:56 AM (14 days ago) Dec 8
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Motorists will do anything you ask of them and even things you won't ask of them. Their "talent" knows no bounds.

I've always raised an eyebrow at - contrary to the way "Vienna" (drive-over) stops in Europe have bollards on the footpath to protect pedestrians from cars - the Melbourne practice which is to not have bollards protecting those waiting at the tram stop, but instead using them to protect motorists from falling off the platforms on the tram side. Obviously some sort of motorists-first policy.

Tony P

Bob Pearce

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Dec 8, 2025, 3:52:10 AM (14 days ago) Dec 8
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G’day Tony,

 

Maybe the thinking is to not repair, because the talentless ones will only damage it again.

 

Obviously a Weetbix issued licence is getting more popular now.

 

Bob in Perth

Matthew Geier

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Dec 9, 2025, 12:09:52 AM (13 days ago) Dec 9
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On 8/12/25 12:43, 'Bob Pearce' via TramsDownUnder wrote:

G’day Rob,

What is the cost of and why are only 2 or 3 per year getting done? I take it that is two sides per stop – still doesn’t seem a lot though.

 

And what about the buses? Do they have extendable ramps for wheelchairs and so on like Perth buses do? The buses kneel down, the ramp comes out and whatever - chair, gopher, gets on or off the bus. The ramp is withdrawn, the bus goes back to normal height, doors close and off it goes.


Sydney had auto ramps on some buses a number of years back, but they are all gone now. The ramps at the front kept getting damaged by hitting things on the road or gutters and the middle ones were more robust, but no one liked having the ramp so far from the driver who was supposed to be supervising it's use. As far as I know all buses now have a manual fold out ramp at the front door deployed by the driver.


Robert Smith

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Dec 9, 2025, 8:49:19 PM (12 days ago) Dec 9
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Just received a press release regarding the new union Road superstore, in it they enthused that they will be building six new level access stop pairs in the next two years. They are three years late, and even to make 2032 they would need to build around 33 per year.

They don't care about the disabled / elderly / mothers with prams / anyone

Rob

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