G class model

[brian_...@westnet.com.au]

A full-sized model up of the G class tram has been built. It will be tested by various parties in order to fine tune the design before the first G class trams are delivered in 2025.

 

The Age today published an article with photographs of the model. The three photos attached are courtesy of the Department of Transport and Planning.

 

Brian Weedon

 

 

 

 

[TP]

(Ex) Bombardier seems to struggle with aisle width. I've seen other manufacturers' trams with swivelling bogies with wider aisles on 2.4 metre-wide bodies than Bombardier seems able to achieve on a 2.65 metre-wide body. A bus-width aisle (about 500 mm) like this means that people have trouble passing in the aisle, which inhibits circulation and the time it takes to reach the nearest door.

The Skoda 15T for example has a 700 mm wide aisle in a 2.45 metre wide body.

Tony P

[brian_...@westnet.com.au]

Channel 7 has a brief grab of the G class mock up.

 

 

https://tinyurl.com/G-class-mock-up

 

Brian Weedon

[Matthew Geier]

On 24/10/23 14:37, TP wrote:

(Ex) Bombardier seems to struggle with aisle width. I've seen other manufacturers' trams with swivelling bogies with wider aisles on 2.4 metre-wide bodies than Bombardier seems able to achieve on a 2.65 metre-wide body.

This may be more due to the minimum curve specification and how far the bogies need to rotate to accommodate this than 'poor design' on Bombardier's part. I've seen other rotating bogie trams in Europe where there are little triangular intrusions into the aisle to allow for the bogie swing. I'd bet the builders of those quote the full aisle width and not the small narrowed sections on their PR/spec sheets. :-)

Škoda are one of the few manufactures who still use the Jacobs bogie idea, and even then, most of their product line doesn't use them, only cities prepared to pay more for track friendly trams get the Jacobs bogie versions.

The Polish Modernus Gamma I rode on a couple of months back had the same issue, the aisle narrows over the bogie to accommodate the bogie swing. (The Modernus cars seem to be quite good - although who knows what their longevity will be like, especially on rough track).

[bblun...@yahoo.com]

And Jacinta is claiming On her Facebook page:

This is our newest tram. It's called the G Class, and the very first prototype has just rolled off the production line in Dandenong.

These trams will be more spacious, more accessible and more energy-efficient than ever before, and we're supporting nearly 2,000 local jobs by building them in Melbourne's south east suburbs.

They'll be hitting the tracks from 2025. 

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[Mal Rowe]

On 23/10/2023 22:20, brian_...@westnet.com.au wrote:

A full-sized model up of the G class tram has been built. It will be tested by various parties in order to fine tune the design before the first G class trams are delivered in 2025.

 

The Age today published an article with photographs of the model. The three photos attached are courtesy of the Department of Transport and Planning.

 

Thanks Brian,

Looking at the pictures I think I can see some significant changes to seating and door layouts by comparison with the E class.

I have attached my very rough version of what I think the new layout looks like, adapted from the E class layout and based on the photos.

The interior photo in particular at  https://tdu.to/i/83663 is informative.

• The driver only doors on the left hand side of each cab have been eliminated and the space used to accommodate single person width passenger doors at both ends.
• The double person width doors in each end section have been reduced from two to one.  Wheelchair access is adjacent to each of those doors.  
• Fold down seats are provided in the G class wheelchair / pram area - there are none in an E class.
  
• There is no door on the small centre unit - which I assume sits on a fixed truck (as in the Eurotram - see: https://tdu.to/i/8445)

So (if my conjecture is correct) the change is from 5 double width doors clustered towards the centre of an E to 2 double width doors towards the centre and two single width doors towards the ends.  That's six passenger entry openings spread out over the length of the tram compared with 10 clustered towards the centre.  See https://tdu.to/i/82538 for a side view of an E.

That won't have the crowd swallowing capacity of an E but should be OK for a tram the size of a G.

It will deal with the point about narrow isles between the seats over the trucks - they will be accessible from both ends.  It will also probably lead to greater use of the seats closest to the driver bulkhead - which are often left empty.

Mal Rowe - who recons that if you look at Matthew Geier's 2002 pic at: https://tdu.to/i/43370 and imagine the cab sections attached to the main body and with swivelling trucks you may be seeing a pretty good representation  of a G class!

[Matthew Geier]

On 26/10/23 16:55, Mal Rowe wrote:
>
> Looking at the pictures I think I can see some significant changes to
> seating and door layouts by comparison with the E class.
>
>

It also looks like they have gone to considerable effort to thin out the
corner pillars of the cab to reduce the amount of side view occluded by
the pillars, the E's being altered mid production run to improve this
aspect.

This will be tricky bit of structural engineering as they will want
front impact strength to protect the driver in the event of a collision,
but not block the view with large pillars.

[TP]

The G is basically an E class with a short centre module. Because that module is short, the bogie under it is fixed as that doesn't create any exceptional stress on the track.

[brian_...@westnet.com.au]

There is a photo in Reddit that clearly shows how narrow the aisle is.

 

 

Brian Weedon

[TP]

He appears to be demonstrating that PTV takes pride in the aisle width! Next time I'm in Melbourne I'll tread on his toes. It must be about the same as the E class though.

Amazing really, considering it's a 2.65 metre-wide tram with more transverse space to play with than the typical narrower European tram. There's a lot to be said for Jacobs bogies, but cheapness rules the roost nowadays.

Tony P

[Daniel Bowen]

Pretty sure that's Age journalist Kieran Rooney.

 

[Andrew Highriser]

It is only a mock up and may not be the end product. But I grant, the narrow aisle is puzzling. 

Andrew. 

On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 at 17:35, TP <histor...@smartchat.net.au> wrote:

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[Peter Bruce]

I suppose it's just me just me but the whole thing looks narrow, is it a 100% mock-up??

Peter Bruce.

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[TP]

These mock-ups are typically a replica of the real thing, to same dimensions. With all the stuff on the roof, modern trams do tend to look rather tall and skinny, but this girl is a solid 2.65 metres (8.7 feet) wide (cf. 2.5 metres for a bus) and probably a typical 3 metres or so tall. They're also tall inside as designers like to leave good airspace above the passengers' heads.

Tony P

[brian_...@westnet.com.au]

Another Department of Transport and Planning photo featuring the passenger display screen.

 

Brian Weedon

[p...@bigpond.com]

Presumably two and one seating wasn’t considered?

Paul in Melbourne

[Tony Galloway]

That doesn’t help as the space required for the swing of the bogie is what dictates the aisle width.

Tony

On 28 Oct 2023, at 09:15, pn1 via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Presumably two and one seating wasn’t considered?

Paul in Melbourne

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[TP]

This is all you'll get with a single seat - the bogie box will still be there wasting space. This is the Budapest Combino Plus.

Tony P

[Malcolm Miles]

From Daniel’s blog:

“I got to see a mock-up of the new G Class tram last week.”

 

G Class tram mock-up – Daniel Bowen

 

Best wishes,

Malcolm

[TP]

It was interesting to read that some Melbourne termini are too short for 30 metre trams. If so, that's justification for these trams on those routes.

Tony P

[Geoffrey D Dean]

A few years ago they lengthened most termini to accommodate two Z/Z3 trams. Glen Iris can just take two Combinos with about an inch to spare at the points blade.
Geoffrey - retired nine years.

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Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: G class model

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[Mal Rowe]

On 20/11/2023 00:22, Geoffrey D Dean wrote:
> A few years ago they lengthened most termini to accommodate two Z/Z3
> trams. Glen Iris can just take two Combinos with about an inch to
> spare at the points blade.
>

The immediate issue when the G class start rolling out in 2025 will be
the stub terminus for Footscray trams in Pascoe Vale Rd.

It has a capacity of two Z3s or one G - it may at a squeeze take a Z and
a G - pic attached.

That capacity is frequently used when trams on routes 57 and 82 are
running in to Essendon Depot or running out.

Once the new Maidstone Depot is operational that won't happen often, as
57 and 82 will run from that depot.

However, the shunt is occasionally used if either route 57 or 59 is
blocked by some event to allow bypass via the other route.

It would be difficult to extend the shunt, but one solution would be to
reinstate the crossover beside the shunt in Pascoe Vale Rd. See:
https://tdu.to/i/29382

That section of Pascoe Vale Rd has very little motor traffic as the only
access is via a U-turn from Mt Alexander Rd.  That slip lane is behind
the two red T lights in the attached picture.

If a traffic light was installed to control that traffic then the
situatiojn of a motorist being confronted by two trams heading south on
parallel tracks coule be avoided.

Mal Rowe - musing

[TP]

" If a traffic light was installed to control that traffic then the
situatiojn of a motorist being confronted by two trams heading south on

parallel tracks coule be avoided. "

Surely the relevant road rule in this case is "might is right"?

Tony P

[Matthew Geier]

On 20/11/23 16:58, TP wrote:
> " If a traffic light was installed to control that traffic then the
> situatiojn of a motorist being confronted by two trams heading south on
> parallel tracks coule be avoided. "
>
> Surely the relevant road rule in this case is "might is right"?
>

Nope a motorist would drive straight head on into the right hand tram
and then claim loudly that the tram 'reversed into me' as the cause of
the accident.


One of the outer Berlin tram routes , Woltersdorf i think - has long
single line sections where the tram is running against the road traffic
as the track is on the kerb side of the road. I remember riding it and
thinking if they tried that in Australia, cars would keep having head on
collisions with the trams.

[Mark Skinner]

...and in Ballarat.

https://victoriancollections.net.au/items/57c7b5f4ab02dd05fc33cd52

Also, scroll down for more images.

Mark Skinner 

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[Tony Galloway]

On 20 Nov 2023, at 16:58, TP <histor...@smartchat.net.au> wrote:

Surely the relevant road rule in this case is "might is right"?

Tony P

Maybe a bit of time spent doing food deliveries on a scooter would give a different perspective on that idea…

Tony

[Peter Bruce]

Matthew and all, when I was a trammie in Melbourne [1966-77] St. George's Rd which carried routes 9, 10 and 11 had both inbound and outbound tracks in the outbound and as I recall unmarked carriageway. Travelling inbound was downright hairy and occasionally lethal especially on Friday and Saturday nights. I never had a head on collision on that section but that was more by luck than my good management.

Peter Bruce.

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[Steven Altham]

I agree Peter Bruce I was at East Preston 1987 to 1989 driving city bound on St George's road was very scary sometimes. I nearly had a few head on collisions 

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[Mal Rowe]

On 21/11/2023 00:02, Peter Bruce wrote:
> Matthew and all, when I was a trammie in Melbourne [1966-77] St.
> George's Rd which carried routes 9, 10 and 11 had both inbound and
> outbound tracks in the outbound and as I recall unmarked carriageway.
> Travelling inbound was downright hairy and occasionally lethal
> especially on Friday and Saturday nights. I never had a head on
> collision on that section but that was more by luck than my good
> management.
>

Yes - a different world in terms of road / tram standards.

There's a pic of mine at: https://tdu.to/i/7219

Another very risky bit of roadside track was Sturt St West in Ballarat. 
Trams moved out into the roadway (which was the western highway!) on the
passing loop.

There is a rather stunning image by Andrew Cook at https://tdu.to/i/78993

Mal Rowe - who survived driving in that era

[David McLoughlin]

Peter Bruce wrote:

> when I was a trammie in Melbourne [1966-77] St.
> George's Rd which carried routes 9, 10 and 11 had both inbound and
> outbound tracks in the outbound and as I recall unmarked carriageway.
> Travelling inbound was downright hairy and occasionally lethal
> especially on Friday and Saturday nights.

My brother was a tram driver at Preston around 1990. One day, as he was driving an inbound tram along that stretch of St Georges Road, a woman deliberately jumped in front of his fast-moving tram from behind a traction pole. He had no chance of stopping in time. He never drove a tram again, and to be honest, has never recovered.

[TP]

There was/is "wrong side" running in both the second and third generation Sydney tram systems, but we have the sense to separate it from road traffic. If you let road traffic run on the tram lines you can expect trouble!

A familiar example of bidirectional kerbside running was along City Road adjacent to Sydney University.

https://www.sydney.edu.au/science/chemistry/images/content/history/trams-coupledcars.jpg

Today, alongside Alison Rd.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49947018982_9fa7d11476_z.jpg

(Acknowledgement to John Cowper)

Tony P

[tram...@gmail.com]

FM class leader 400 heading up Cornwall St near Ipswich Rd depot on two-way single track.

FM 546 inbound Lancaster Rd, Doomben against the traffic.

 

Just a couple of Brisbane “wrong side” examples.

 

Cheers,

Mick in Brisbane

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[Mal Rowe]

On 23/11/2023 17:21, tram...@gmail.com wrote:

FM class leader 400 heading up Cornwall St near Ipswich Rd depot on two-way single track.

Looks like I was standing next to you that day!

https://tdu.to/i/10715

Mal Rowe - among the shadows

[Tony Galloway]

Wasn’t Cornwall St the last new section of track built in Brisbane?

Tony

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[tram...@gmail.com]

No mate, that was O’Keeffe St – built to reduce dead-running between Logan Rd and Ipswich Rd depot.

It was also single track, but it was in the centre of the road.

The attached shot by John Ward shows it artistically.

 

Cheers,

Mick in Brisbane

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[Tony Galloway]

Thanks Mick.

Unfortunately I never got to Brisbane before the trams finished, I was 10 yrs old when it happened.

Tony

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<411 O'Keeffe St Buranda 080469 John Ward.jpg>