Slow trams in Melbourne

[Mal Rowe]

The Age this morning has published data on actual speeds on Melbourne
tram routes on pages 2 and 3.

The information was obtained via a freedom of information request.

I have attached a screen shot of a summary graphic.  The data relates to
morning peak hour travel.

The reason is largely due to lack of tram lane priority in some streets
plus close spacing of stops plus slow loading where there are no
platform stops.

For those with an Age or SMH subscription, personally or through your
local library you can see the article at

https://edition.theage.com.au/shortcode/THE965/edition/6749849f-986e-19e8-2974-7d8dd84d0082?page=f8bed89e-3142-dd94-6652-4e44281df65c&

Mal Rowe who mainly travels off peak.

[TP]

As I've said previously, all those issues are down to lack of support from governments over the years, not the competence of the operation.

For comparison, I recall that the former Sydney system had a system-wide average of 19 km/h. The average speed of Sydney's modern L2/L3 (either line) is just under 17 km/h, which is pretty poor for a line in its own lanes and with so few stops, compared to Melbourne (average about 650-700 metres apart). Sydney's L1 has an average speed of just over 20 km/h, which is again poor for a system that, not only has its own lanes, but is completely grade-separated for the majority of the route (average stop spacing of about 580 metres, slightly longer than standard for the typical European tramway).. 

All in all, Yarra Trams need congratulating for doing as well as it does in very adverse conditions. Can they please come and operate Sydney's light rail?

Tony P

[Matthew Geier]

Transdev in partnership with John Holland took over the Melbourne franchise on 1st December 2024, so Transdev as been the operator of both the Melbourne network and Sydney's 4 tram routes since that time.

So far from Melbourne coming and taking over Sydney, Sydney took over Melbourne. :-)

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[TP]

I feel confident that the Melbourne team won't call on the Sydney team for assistance. The various Transdev operators seem to live within their own little cells anyway. It's just a common brand.

Tony P

[Matthew Geier]

Yes, one would hope the Transdev Australia don't get any ideas about Sydney or Paramatta being 'best practice' that should be exported to Melbourne :-)

Really it should flow the other way, Melbourne operational experience flowing to help Sydney and Parramatta along. But I'm cynical enough to expect that will never happen.

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[Geoff Olsen]

I think that we are losing sight of an important point. We are comparing apples with oranges as Sydney has a (drum roll clash of cymbals) “Modern light rail system” whereas Melbourne runs those funny old trams.

Sydney is of course a hybrid system being a light rail system with heavy rail safeworking and operating procedures.

Geoff O.

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[Mal Rowe]

On 29/04/2026 10:48, Mal Rowe wrote:

The Age this morning has published data on actual speeds on Melbourne tram routes on pages 2 and 3. 

There is at least one problem with the analysis by The Age.

They say: 

The Age obtained tram speed data from the state transport department through a freedom of information request. It divides the network into 509 segments and lists the average travel speeds along each segment in the morning commuter peak (7am to 9am) between December 2024 and August 2025. 

Then they quote Graham Currie:

Monash University’s chair of public transport, Graham Currie, said sharing road space with traffic was the biggest impact on speeds. He said trams and vehicles should be separated with bollards where possible, as has been done in the CBD over the past decade. In congested areas like Brunswick Street, that could mean removing on-street parking to free up road space.

Virtually all the congested streets named are "Clearways" in peak hours so it's not a parking issue, but lack of lane separation is an issue.

Mal Rowe nitpicking

[Mick Duncan]

Gday  All

How sad,in the 70s,the Melb tabled average speed was 12 MPH,19 KPH
till about 8PM then it was 15 MPH,24KPH

A lot less traffic and traffic lights then

Cheers,    Mick

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[TP]

The population is now twice what it was in 1970 Mick! Those were the days. 

Tony P

(who remembers the countdown clocks at traffic lights)

[Mick Duncan]

Gday  Tony, All

There was a set of Clock lights in Bridge Rd,cant remember which
intersection in the 60s and maybe 70s

Cheers,    Mick

[Steven Altham]

Here is the clock traffic lights outside RACV headquarters in Bourke street Melbourne 20th December 2017. I remember nepean highway heading towards Frankston there was a couple of of those clocks location????

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[Jeremy Wainwright]

They were quite numerous but I don't know when they finished up (not very long after I moved to Canberra in 1967, I guess). The most needful examples that I remember were those at the intersection of Johnston St and Brunswick St, where the lights were only in pairs, red and green, and, to add to the confusion, for traffic on Johnston St (as I recall), green was above red (simpler wiring?)!

JWW

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From: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steven Altham <steven...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, 2 May 2026 04:23
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Slow trams in Melbourne

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[Jeremy Wainwright]

Thinking a bit more about this, I suspect that they finished during the '60s as a result of the adoption in Victoria around about that time of the 'get-ready' red-over-amber traffic-light phase. Rejigging the 'clocks' to cope with that was probably not a practical proposition, given that the mechanisms are likely to have been getting pretty ropey by then. And how I regret not having had a concerted campaign to get tram shots featuring them!

JWW

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From: Jeremy Wainwright <jew...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, 2 May 2026 12:39
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Traffic 'clocks' in Melbourne (was Slow trams in Melbourne)

 

[pn1]

I recall the red and green traffic lights were replaced about the same time as the former cable tram tracks on  Victoria Parade were torn up. Mid 1950 would be my guess. 

Paul in Melbourne currently riding a rural EMU in Japan.

On 2 May 2026, at 12:32, Jeremy Wainwright <jew...@hotmail.com> wrote:



Thinking a bit more about this, I suspect that they finished during the '60s as a result of the adoption in Victoria around about that time of the 'get-ready' red-over-amber traffic-light phase. Rejigging the 'clocks' to cope with that was probably not a practical proposition, given that the mechanisms are likely to have been getting pretty ropey by then. And how I regret not having had a concerted campaign to get tram shots featuring them!

JWW

---

From: Jeremy Wainwright <jew...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, 2 May 2026 12:39
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Traffic 'clocks' in Melbourne (was Slow trams in Melbourne)

 

They were quite numerous but I don't know when they finished up (not very long after I moved to Canberra in 1967, I guess). The most needful examples that I remember were those at the intersection of Johnston St and Brunswick St, where the lights were only in pairs, red and green, and, to add to the confusion, for traffic on Johnston St (as I recall), green was above red (simpler wiring?)!

JWW

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From: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steven Altham <steven...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, 2 May 2026 04:23
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Slow trams in Melbourne

 

<20260502_041455.jpg>

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[Mal Rowe]

On 02/05/2026 13:31, Jeremy Wainwright wrote:

Thinking a bit more about this, I suspect that they finished during the '60s as a result of the adoption in Victoria around about that time of the 'get-ready' red-over-amber traffic-light phase. 

As I recall, the last of the "Marshallite Traffic Indicators" were used at pedestrian crossings on the Nepean Highway - weel outside tram territory.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshalite 

Noel Reed shared one of his pics showing one at the East Coburg tram terminus in 1955 - here 'tis.

Mal Rowe still enjoying Noel's wonderful images

[Ron Stux]

I also remember that somewhere there was one that had a lighted sweep hand and at night the light changed color as the hand swept across the color change. The only ones that I passed regularly were at Bell Street East Coburg terminus and the BrunswickSt/Johnson St intersection. Might have been one of them. I also remember that at one time the lighted hand disappeared in favor of a plain hand like shown.

Cheers,

Ron Stux (today in Florida, maybe soon back in Melbourne)

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[David McLoughlin]

I was born in Melbourne and grew up there in the 1960s and 1970s. I do remember the Marshallite signals until at least the mid-1960s, my father when driving the family in his car always mentioned them when we came to an intersection with them.  My recollection is there were normal traffic lights at least at some of the intersections with Marshallites; maybe at the time they were being replaced. They were quite distinctive things, just like trams, which also always attracted my attention as a kid. Well they still do. It still amazes me to visit Melbourne and see trams running to Box Hill, where I grew up. I used to walk to the old Mont Albert terminus just to see the trams there.

[Richard Youl]

Nothing like a little video to jog the memory…

Marshallite

https://youtu.be/buta4gZqJ38

I also have movie film taken from a train on the Frankston line, but not extracted, showing a Marshalite in action. 

Richard

On 2 May 2026, at 11:23 pm, Ron Stux <rand...@gmail.com> wrote:



I also remember that somewhere there was one that had a lighted sweep hand and at night the light changed color as the hand swept across the color change. The only ones that I passed regularly were at Bell Street East Coburg terminus and the BrunswickSt/Johnson St intersection. Might have been one of them. I also remember that at one time the lighted hand disappeared in favor of a plain hand like shown.

Cheers,

Ron Stux (today in Florida, maybe soon back in Melbourne)

On Fri, May 1, 2026 at 10:39 PM Jeremy Wainwright <jew...@hotmail.com> wrote:

They were quite numerous but I don't know when they finished up (not very long after I moved to Canberra in 1967, I guess). The most needful examples that I remember were those at the intersection of Johnston St and Brunswick St, where the lights were only in pairs, red and green, and, to add to the confusion, for traffic on Johnston St (as I recall), green was above red (simpler wiring?)!

JWW

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From: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steven Altham <steven...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, 2 May 2026 04:23
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Slow trams in Melbourne

 

<20260502_041455.jpg>

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[David McLoughlin]

Thanks Richard.  I’ve seen that set, I think at the RACV building in the city in Melbourne.

 

Also I recently saw your video of the Port Melbourne segment of the 109, watched with interest as  we lived at North Port for a time when Judith got the teaching job in Melbourne, and we caught the 109 to and from work every day from North Port.

 

I saw a news item this week of a tram being tested on the Gold Coast line extension. Still can’t believe the cost they claimed; as if they got TfNSW to build it.

 

 

Cheers david

 

From: 'Richard Youl' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2026 2:31 PM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Traffic 'clocks' in Melbourne (was Slow trams in Melbourne)

 

Nothing like a little video to jog the memory…

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[Richard Youl]

I’m pleased that you liked the Marshalite in action, David. Unfortunately it disappeared when the RACV revamped their building around 10 yers ago. 

Nice that you also enjoyed  the Port Melbourne end of the 109. The terminus area has probably changed an awful lot since you were there. Certainly no longer the barren wasteland with prowling foxes at night that I encountered. The rest of that line will be covered in due course.

As for the Gold Coast line, here is that first trip south to Burleigh Heads. When daytime testing and driver familiarising starts, I will cover northbound. 

Very First Gold Coast Tram to Burleigh Heads 30:4:26

https://youtu.be/vz6rCw_Qkqg

As for the ridiculous Gold Coast cost, as they think they are building “light rail“ they refuse to look at Melbourne methods and use extremely convoluted imported tracking methods and set the track in concrete when nothing ever runs over it. Open ballast like stage 2 to Helensvale railway station would be very much cheaper. 

And just like liberal governments in most other states, Queensland’s Liberal National Party used the convoluted cost and NIMBY opposition as excuses to abandon the next extension to the Airport and NSW border. 

Cheers,

Richard

On 5 May 2026, at 7:13 am, David McLoughlin <mcloug...@gmail.com> wrote:



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