sh import?

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Bohms, H.M. (Michel)

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Jun 23, 2021, 6:37:05 AM6/23/21
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Is it needed to explicitly import sh?

 

Or is it like rdfs, rdfs, owl, xsd etc.

 

(I used to import dash but given that issue…etc.)

 

 

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
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Structural Reliability

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Holger Knublauch

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Jun 23, 2021, 4:03:36 PM6/23/21
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On 23/06/2021 8:37 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:

Is it needed to explicitly import sh?

For what application?

In general, owl:imports are a good thing. They make the semantics of the used resources more explicit and transparent. If we skip them here, where would this end: use skos:Concept without importing SKOS Core? Makes no sense to me.

Holger


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Bohms, H.M. (Michel)

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Jun 23, 2021, 4:58:43 PM6/23/21
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More like:

 

Is sh in the league of xsd/rdf/rdfs/owl (not imported)

 

Or in the league of others being imported explicitly

 

 

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
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Location

 

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Bohms, H.M. (Michel)

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Jun 23, 2021, 5:04:34 PM6/23/21
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My view…sh would fit well in that list of languages (xsd, rdf, rdfs, owl, …) that are handled without explicit import…

 

???

 

Counterargument?

 

 

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel...@tno.nl

Location

 

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Holger Knublauch

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Jun 23, 2021, 6:57:44 PM6/23/21
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On 2021-06-24 7:04 am, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:

My view…sh would fit well in that list of languages (xsd, rdf, rdfs, owl, …) that are handled without explicit import…

What does it even mean to be "handled". In all TopBraid tools, there is a hidden automated import of system triples including XSD, RDF etc. Without that, no forms and other algorithms would work. Algorithms wouldn't even know that owl:Class rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Class. The design of OWL in this respect is a failure, and I believe they don't want people to import the metamodel because it broke some OWL DL algorithms with the introduction of metaclasses. Having to implement some special hidden graph is ugly.

Holger


Bohms, H.M. (Michel)

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Jun 24, 2021, 2:21:05 AM6/24/21
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Hi Holger

 

I see the issue.

 

So reformulated my question is:

 

Is shacl import also automated now (like eg rdf)?

(It seems not, since deleting the import also deletes the shacl tab)

 

If not, should be it be? (consistently, since it is also a basic language vocab)

Or not, because it is not that essential like rdf(s) etc. ie not breaking code etc.)

 

 

But generalizing I see you point that ‘being essential’ depends in the end on what you want to do with it….(forms etc.)

(and explicit import only works if the stuff imported is perfect…)

 

All in all, I think, shacl getting more and more important, it would be best to automatically load it.

(in other words: TBBC being by default a RDF/RDFS/OWL/SHACL-tool).

 

For now, I’ll keep the sh imports explicitly in…..

 

Gr michel

David Price

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Jun 24, 2021, 3:24:52 AM6/24/21
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On 24 Jun 2021, at 07:21, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users <topbrai...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Hi Holger
 
I see the issue.
 
So reformulated my question is: 
 
Is shacl import also automated now (like eg rdf)?
(It seems not, since deleting the import also deletes the shacl tab)
 
If not, should be it be? (consistently, since it is also a basic language vocab)
Or not, because it is not that essential like rdf(s) etc. ie not breaking code etc.)
 
But generalizing I see you point that ‘being essential’ depends in the end on what you want to do with it….(forms etc.)
(and explicit import only works if the stuff imported is perfect…)
 
All in all, I think, shacl getting more and more important, it would be best to automatically load it.
(in other words: TBBC being by default a RDF/RDFS/OWL/SHACL-tool).

Hi Michel,

If users want SHACL then in TBC use File, New, SHACL Shapes file and there’s a checkbox to decide initial imports of dash or pure SHACL.  

If users want RDFS/OWL then use File, New, RDF File. 

TBC users have control.

Cheers,
David



 
For now, I’ll keep the sh imports explicitly in…..
 
Gr michel
 
 
Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability
T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel...@tno.nl
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Van: topbrai...@googlegroups.com <topbrai...@googlegroups.com> Namens Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: donderdag 24 juni 2021 00:58
Aan: topbrai...@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] sh import?
 

 

On 2021-06-24 7:04 am, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
My view…sh would fit well in that list of languages (xsd, rdf, rdfs, owl, …) that are handled without explicit import…

What does it even mean to be "handled". In all TopBraid tools, there is a hidden automated import of system triples including XSD, RDF etc. Without that, no forms and other algorithms would work. Algorithms wouldn't even know that owl:Class rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Class. The design of OWL in this respect is a failure, and I believe they don't want people to import the metamodel because it broke some OWL DL algorithms with the introduction of metaclasses. Having to implement some special hidden graph is ugly.

Holger

 

 
???
 
Counterargument?
 
 
Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability
T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel...@tno.nl
This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electronic transmission of messages. 
 
Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users <topbrai...@googlegroups.com> 
Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 22:59
Aan: topbrai...@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: RE: [topbraid-users] sh import?
 
More like:
 
Is sh in the league of xsd/rdf/rdfs/owl (not imported)
 
Or in the league of others being imported explicitly
 
 
Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability
T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel...@tno.nl
This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electronic transmission of messages. 
 
Van: topbrai...@googlegroups.com <topbrai...@googlegroups.com> Namens Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 22:03
Aan: topbrai...@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] sh import?
 

 

On 23/06/2021 8:37 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Is it needed to explicitly import sh?

For what application?

In general, owl:imports are a good thing. They make the semantics of the used resources more explicit and transparent. If we skip them here, where would this end: use skos:Concept without importing SKOS Core? Makes no sense to me.

Holger

 

 
Or is it like rdfs, rdfs, owl, xsd etc.
 
(I used to import dash but given that issue…etc.)
 
 
Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability
T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel...@tno.nl
This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electronic transmission of messages. 
 
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Bohms, H.M. (Michel)

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Jun 24, 2021, 4:09:32 AM6/24/21
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Yes in case of ‘choice’ checkbox is fine

However we also have scenarios where both OWL and SHACL are relevant (say for use cases involving inference and verification).

Or in future where we might want to go shacl-only (blog irene…).

 

Those scenarios would benefit from automatic shacl import….

 

 

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel...@tno.nl

Location

 

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