Sensitive but serious question for the core TW team... may offend.

[David Szego]

Hope this doesn't offend, especially Jeremy, but it's due to common reactions in conversations lately.

When I've been showing my Cardo project to people, and explaining that it's based on this awesome self-contained javascript development environment in a single html file that lets you completely contain your entire knowledge store in a wikified hypercard sort of metaphor etc. etc. called "TiddlyWiki"...

...the reaction I get is usually along the lines of one raised eyebrow, a bit of a disgusted look, and the words "Tiddly winkie?" repeated back to me.

I get that "Tiddler" is probably a very fine British term (I'm assuming?) meaning a reminder, or something.... but here in Canada at least, just saying Tiddler or Tiddly reeks of pedophilic abuse. Especially with the extremely unfortunately paired term "wiki", which ends up making it all sound too much like "diddlywinkie" - "playing with your peepee."

That's a big part of why I called it "Cardo". And let's face it - TW Classic and TW5 are basically the amazing evolution of Apple's Hypercard. I have a hard time even typing "Tiddler" in these forums, let alone saying it, but no problem talking about "Cards", which they essentially are, by look and feel as well as by function.

So... Maybe the next evolution of TW should be towards something more user-adoptable, like calling it WikiCards or something?

Again, sorry to offend... but judging by the reaction I get when talking about the tool, (no innuendo intended there!!), I can't be the only one.

Cheers,
David.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi David

Very tactfully put! Not at all a problem to bring up things like this.

The background is that when I first released and named TiddlyWiki I had no idea it was anything more than a quickly knocked-off one-off demo. Where I was bought up (late 1960’s East Yorkshire, in the north of England), the word “tiddly” and “tiddler” primarily meant “small”. “Tiddler” was specifically a small fish, not worth the bother of catching. There’s also “tiddly” meaning slightly drunk. I like wordplay, alliteration and so on, and just liked the tick-tock rhythm of the name.

I’ve occasionally encountered the reaction you’ve found, but it’s relatively rare. Perhaps because English isn’t the first language of so many members of the community. Amongst non-British English speakers, I’ve met once or twice met people who have told me that they first thought that the name was a joke at their expense, tricking them into saying something that was hilariously rude in British English. 

In retrospect, I think I should have picked a new name for TiddlyWiki5 to simplify separating TiddlyWiki Classic when Googling for information. I agree with you that “card”-based names seem the most appropriate replacement. Having said that, browsing App Stores makes me wonder whether having a ludicrous but distinctive name isn’t a better choice than a bland collision of concrete adjectives and nouns.

As to where we go from here, I’d be inclined to think that the boat has sailed in terms of renaming TiddlyWiki in it’s present form (but am open to counter-arguments). But if I were to, say, try to launch a commercial service based on TiddlyWiki, I certainly wouldn’t do so under the name “TiddlyWiki”; I think of it as the name of the underlying open source project, without necessarily being exposed in the descriptions of products that are built from it. There was an early case of this with Twine, the hypertext authoring engine; it evolved from TiddlyWiki Classic and still uses it for the runtime engine. But Twine is marketed in its own right, not as something based on TiddlyWiki.

As I say, views on this or any other topic are very welcome.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

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[PMario]

Hi,

As Jeremy mentioned, English isn't the first language, of a big portion, of the community. Mine is German (Austrian). "Tiddly" or "Tiddler" doesn't have any meaning here. Also no "slang" words, that are similar. So since I discovered TiddlyWiki, it defined the term for me and since then, it is, what it is: [1] "Tiddlers are the fundamental units of information in TiddlyWiki."  .. nothing more and nothing less.

As I first searched "tiddler" (some years ago) at duden.de, there haven't been any hits. .. Now there are, since they added an English version, which points to the "small fish" :)

----

The funny thing is "cardo" has some hits at duden.de and seems to be a Latin word for: "hinge".  ... So imo whatever we use, there is a high possibility, that it has a "strange" meaning, in some countries.

Or it is trademarked and/or a product name. see: HyperCard and alike ..

just some thoughts

have fun!
mario

[1] http://tiddlywiki.com/#Tiddlers

[Danielo Rodríguez]

I have to say that , for me, writing the word tiddler and tiddlywiki properly and with confidence took me more than a year. I still feel uncomfortable pronouncing it, and when I try to explain it to any other person I usually use synonyms like note, card, or anything like it.

I never found a single person that was able to write tiddlywiki correctly just by hearing it. In fact they usually forgot the name even after visiting the home page a couple of times.

[Mat]

Clearly a lingo-cultural matter. For me (a Swede) the name is no problem what so ever. If anything, I have a problem with the word "wiki"; IMO it diminishes what TW really is and can do. I'm just learning wordpress (as part of a temporary job) and it is promoted as a CMS. This feels like a more appropriate description for TW albeit a bit technical.

Tiddly-doo-tiddly-dum...

<:-)

[Handoko Suwono]

nothing more than its content and function. I try to relate "tiddly"
to its translation to no better response from audience. It's a non
commonly used word, so I don't really care about what its meaning.
Never try to relate though. Some friends do read as "tidly" instead of
"tiddly".

handoko -

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[Phil Parnell]

When I first started using TiddlyWiki I remember my assumption was that it was a play on the game Tiddlywinks. 

[Dave Parker]

I just never refer to the name "Tiddlywiki" when explaining it anymore.  I just say "Its an html file you can use in your browser", and people respond "okay".  Any little "applications" I've fashioned from it and shared are pretty self explanatory and need no reference to the word.  The only people you'd need to tell the name to are those who might want to get into fashioning their own, and those are (at least in my world) few and far between.

[Tobias Beer]

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to let you know that, to me,
neither "TiddlyWiki" nor "tiddler" have anything awkward about them.

I simply use use these words and explain what they mean, when I have to.
In fact, I've grown to like those names and I wouldn't want any other.

Braindump, Cardaway, or Knowy sound equally stupid. :D

As for the little fish,
I quite like that that's the name it was given.

Makes a whole lot of sense to me and
represents exactly the kind of organic touch
that is the TiddlyWiki ecosystem.

Techy and then again not.

I like how you can easily create a narrative
over a little fish finding its way.

Best wishes,

Tobias.

[PMario]

On Saturday, October 1, 2016 at 12:56:20 AM UTC+2, Tobias Beer wrote:

I like how you can easily create a narrative
over a little fish finding its way.

:)

Yea, I think we have the advantage, that non of the terms have any meaning in German. So TiddlyWiki defines them.

-m

[Michael Joseph Rosenthal]

In the USA/Texas, About 4/5 times I say "TiddlyWiki" to someone, they seem disgusted. At least 2 of those times they'll outright say "that's a horrible name". 
I agree that renaming TiddlyWiki shouldn't be a top priority, and it might not even be worth the switching cost. But given that "tiddler" makes so many people think "active pedophile", I'd say renaming the project at the first practical opportunity is a good idea.

[Arlen Beiler]

I do like the sound of Cardo.

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[Sylvain Comte]

Hi everyone,

here in France, there is a word "crado" which sounds pretty much like your "cardo". crado stands for dirty, filthy and in some extent cruddy, nasty, lousy. I'll stay with my good old tiddlers and tiddlywiki ;-)

cheers

Sylvain

Le lun. 17 oct. 2016 à 16:05, Arlen Beiler <arle...@gmail.com> a écrit :

I do like the sound of Cardo.

On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 7:33 PM, Michael Joseph Rosenthal <michael.t...@gmail.com> wrote:

In the USA/Texas, About 4/5 times I say "TiddlyWiki" to someone, they seem disgusted. At least 2 of those times they'll outright say "that's a horrible name". 
I agree that renaming TiddlyWiki shouldn't be a top priority, and it might not even be worth the switching cost. But given that "tiddler" makes so many people think "active pedophile", I'd say renaming the project at the first practical opportunity is a good idea.

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 9:04:17 PM UTC-5, David Szego wrote:

Hope this doesn't offend, especially Jeremy, but it's due to common reactions in conversations lately.

When I've been showing my Cardo project to people, and explaining that it's based on this awesome self-contained javascript development environment in a single html file that lets you completely contain your entire knowledge store in a wikified hypercard sort of metaphor etc. etc. called "TiddlyWiki"...

...the reaction I get is usually along the lines of one raised eyebrow, a bit of a disgusted look, and the words "Tiddly winkie?" repeated back to me.

I get that "Tiddler" is probably a very fine British term (I'm assuming?) meaning a reminder, or something.... but here in Canada at least, just saying Tiddler or Tiddly reeks of pedophilic abuse. Especially with the extremely unfortunately paired term "wiki", which ends up making it all sound too much like "diddlywinkie" - "playing with your peepee."

That's a big part of why I called it "Cardo". And let's face it - TW Classic and TW5 are basically the amazing evolution of Apple's Hypercard. I have a hard time even typing "Tiddler" in these forums, let alone saying it, but no problem talking about "Cards", which they essentially are, by look and feel as well as by function.

So... Maybe the next evolution of TW should be towards something more user-adoptable, like calling it WikiCards or something?

Again, sorry to offend... but judging by the reaction I get when talking about the tool, (no innuendo intended there!!), I can't be the only one.

Cheers,
David.

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sylvai...@gmail.com

[David Szego]

LOVE IT! =-)