Saving TW

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Peter Buyze

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Apr 11, 2020, 5:20:24 AM4/11/20
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I am a bit confused and concerned about this.

I have a folder where I save TW to. Each time I save TW it does not replace the existing file, it creates a new one. So, let's my TW file is called Peter. When I make changes to it, then save it, it is saved as Peter(1). If I then continue using Peter and save it again, the file is saved as Peter(2).

This is great because it works as a sort of "Time Machine" allowing you to go back to an earlier version, contrary to say a Word document, which, each time you save it, it replaces the existing version in the folder, so you cannot go back to a previous version like with TW.

However, I have noticed that sometimes when I close the TW file and reopen it the changes are not there. I may be doing something wrong. Is there something that is obvious to anyone, or am I just being dense, or not careful?

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Mat

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Apr 11, 2020, 5:44:06 AM4/11/20
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Yes, that is a big problem if it happens (or, even worse, it happens but you don't even notice). It sounds like the same issue that I report here.
The way around it, which is definitely not optimal, is to hold down the Shift key as the page is loaded. If it was already loaded with old version, then refresh+Shiftkey.
What system+browser are you using? I find it happens less frequently with Chrome than with FF on my Win machine.

<:-)

Peter Buyze

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Apr 11, 2020, 5:49:59 AM4/11/20
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I am on MacOS Mojave 10.14.6 and am using Ungoogled Chromium.

I have not created many tiddlers yet as I am still exploring TW, but this is definitely very scary, esp. if I sometimes notice it by accident.

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11 Apr 2020, 12:44 by matia...@gmail.com:
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Peter Buyze

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Apr 11, 2020, 6:49:44 AM4/11/20
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Mat, reading the exchange on the Github page you link to, it seems to me it is a cache issue.
I have just relaunched Chromium from the terminal with a command to disable the cache, and will see if that avoids the issue. If it does, fine, but it is a workaround and is not the way it should be.

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11 Apr 2020, 12:44 by matia...@gmail.com:
Yes, that is a big problem if it happens (or, even worse, it happens but you don't even notice). It sounds like the same issue that I report here.

Sylvain Naudin

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Apr 11, 2020, 7:20:51 AM4/11/20
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Le samedi 11 avril 2020 11:20:24 UTC+2, Peter Buyze a écrit :

I have a folder where I save TW to. Each time I save TW it does not replace the existing file, it creates a new one. So, let's my TW file is called Peter. When I make changes to it, then save it, it is saved as Peter(1). If I then continue using Peter and save it again, the file is saved as Peter(2).


Hi Peter,

Are you working with a local file ?

And then, if you work with standard save of TW, it depend on your browser setting, with save to your download folder for example. If you change to ask you where to save, you'll be replace existing file if you want.


Sylvain

Peter Buyze

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Apr 11, 2020, 7:37:50 AM4/11/20
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Yes, I work with a local file.

I have now established the following:
if you use the circular arrow in the right hand pane for reloading, the cache will reload. If, instead of doing that you close your TW tab and relaunch the TW file from the folder, you get the right version.
I have disabled that reload/refresh button so I will be forced to launch from the folder.

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11 Apr 2020, 14:20 by sil...@gmail.com:
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Mark S.

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Apr 11, 2020, 9:46:22 AM4/11/20
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It sounds like you're using the default saver mechanism. The file that is saved is different than the version in the tab. If the browser reloads, it will be the old version because the browser doesn't know that you want the downloaded version.

Ste Wilson

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Apr 11, 2020, 10:18:33 AM4/11/20
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I've always assumed it was browser cache... I sometimes have the same problem using tiddly spot.. Make a change on phone... Open up on work computer and get the version of my wiki I last had on that machine. I mostly remember to hit the refresh button before I do anything new... Though occasionally I have to delve into the tiddly spot backups.

Peter Buyze

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Apr 11, 2020, 10:42:38 AM4/11/20
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I use the red tick button in the right hand pane to save the file. TW asks  me where I want to save it, so I point it to the folder I want it in.

I know there is that saving every 5 mins. but I don't how that works and where TW would save those intermediate saves, although it would be useful to know.

In any case, I don't use the reload button anymore.

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11 Apr 2020, 16:46 by tiddl...@googlegroups.com:
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Lin Onetwo

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Apr 11, 2020, 11:06:11 AM4/11/20
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Hi, Peter:

as long as you are using MacOS, you can use my solution to auto move html file from download folder to a git repo, and auto backup it to github:

See


在 2020年4月11日星期六 UTC+8下午5:20:24，Peter Buyze写道：

Peter Buyze

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Apr 11, 2020, 11:13:55 AM4/11/20
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LinOnetwo, thanks for the suggestion.

I manually moved the original html file out of the Downloads folder into a folder of my choosing. I have set my browser to ask me each time when I click on save where it should save to. So, from that point of view I have no problems, I think.

What I discovered today is that when I want to refresh/reload and click on the circular arrow button in the right hand pane, TW or the browser chooses to open the cached (= old) version. That's why I have disabled the circular arrow button, so now, if I want the latest version, I am forced to go to the folder of the various saved TW versions and choose the latest.

I my humble opinion as a TW newbie I think the circular arrow button is misconfigured.

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11 Apr 2020, 18:06 by lindo...@gmail.com:
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Sylvain Naudin

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Apr 11, 2020, 11:22:00 AM4/11/20
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Le samedi 11 avril 2020 16:42:38 UTC+2, Peter Buyze a écrit :
I use the red tick button in the right hand pane to save the file. TW asks  me where I want to save it, so I point it to the folder I want it in.

I know there is that saving every 5 mins. but I don't how that works and where TW would save those intermediate saves, although it would be useful to know.


On regular single html file, If you don't click on red tick button, you have no saving. There is no saving every 5 minutes.

After reading your last post, I do repeat : when your browser ask you were to save, you can choose the same file if you want create n copies (but it's good to have backup too). So if you write over existing file, the reload button should be fine, since you have correctly save your last modification on the same file.

Hope this help.

(to prevent this, many of us use browser extension to auto-save).

Peter Buyze

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Apr 11, 2020, 11:24:28 AM4/11/20
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OK, I understand Sylvain. Thanks a lot for your help :-)

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11 Apr 2020, 18:21 by sil...@gmail.com:
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TiddlyTweeter

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Apr 11, 2020, 11:27:06 AM4/11/20
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I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are doing. My impression is its as Mark S. says?

Do you have any saver plugin installed? 

TT

Peter Buyze

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Apr 11, 2020, 11:38:14 AM4/11/20
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No, no saver plug-in installed - I did not even know there is such a thing.

When I make a change to my TW file, whether by amending/creating a tiddler or by installing a plug-in, there comes a point where I have to save the amended TW file for which one clicks on the red tick in the right hand pane. Fine.

But after installing or uninstalling a plug-in one has to "reload", which is done by clicking on the red circular arrow. And that is where the problem arises because if, before reloading one has also made some amendments to tiddlers, the reloaded/refreshed file does not show those amendments.

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11 Apr 2020, 18:27 by Tiddly...@assays.tv:
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TiddlyTweeter

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Apr 11, 2020, 11:59:27 AM4/11/20
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Peter Buyze wrote:
No, no saver plug-in installed - I did not even know there is such a thing.

Ah!  I'd take a look here to get a bit clearer ... https://tiddlywiki.com/#GettingStarted

If you need more help to find the right save solution for you do ask!

It does get easier!

TT

Joshua Fontany

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Apr 12, 2020, 8:36:46 PM4/12/20
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This is a "browser specific saver" problem.

You open your wiki "Peter(5)", you change it. You save it as "Peter(6)".

You reload the tab..oops, you just reloaded "Peter(5)" without your changes.

You open the new "Peter(6)" file on disk (in a new tab), you have your changes back.


The browser doesn't understand that you want to reload the new number, and you told it to save the changed version with a different filename (by allowing to auto-increment).

This is the exact problem that other save methods were build to resolve.

I also recommend checking out: https://tiddlywiki.com/#GettingStarted

Best,

Joshua Fontany
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TonyM

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Apr 12, 2020, 9:20:13 PM4/12/20
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Also

Most browsers have a setting on is it saved in the download folder the other allows you to chose where to save a download. Chosing allows you to save over the last filename.

Most of us quickly tire of this and choose a saver. My favorite on windows/ Firefox is timimi which has a plugin and a local component.

Regards
Tony

Peter Buyze

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Apr 13, 2020, 1:46:34 AM4/13/20
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Thanks Josuhua, you have described the issue well.

I do not like saving in the cloud, so of all the methods the only one I'd consider is TiddlyDesktop. I tried it but get a JS error notice, as I reported here https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/tiddlywiki/EMXnym2Rbqs/abbmO4SaAgAJ

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13 Apr 2020, 03:36 by joshua....@gmail.com:
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Peter Buyze

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Apr 13, 2020, 2:02:20 AM4/13/20
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Thanks TonyM. Yes, Timimi looks like an ideal solution. Unfortunately there is no Chromium version, so I cannot use it.


13 Apr 2020, 04:20 by anthony...@gmail.com:
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TonyM

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Apr 13, 2020, 2:27:58 AM4/13/20
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Peter

Have you considered a node, tiddlyserver or bobexe install? The server implementations present the wiki at an address and typically most browsers work. If you are into single file wikis tiddlyserver is easy after setup.

Peter Buyze

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Apr 13, 2020, 7:57:16 AM4/13/20
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TonyM, according to the Getting Started page after installing Node.js one needs to install TiddlyWiki. However, I have been using TiddlyBlink, so will it be possible to keep using TB, but via Node.js? 


13 Apr 2020, 09:27 by anthony...@gmail.com:
Peter

Have you considered a node, tiddlyserver or bobexe install? The server implementations present the wiki at an address and typically most browsers work. If you are into single file wikis tiddlyserver is easy after setup.

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Mark S.

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Apr 13, 2020, 10:35:24 AM4/13/20
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If you're getting an error with TD, then either

1. You have a corrupted TW file
2. You are using a plugin that doesn't agree with TD

Re #1. You were using Violent Monkey? Possibly some bad code got saved. You could drag and drop your old TW file into a new, empty TW file to create a fixed TW.

Re #2. You could disable any plugins you have installed (don't disable "core"!), save, and reload and see if TD works.

To use node.js to save, you would need to turn your TW into a data-folder tiddler. This is often less convenient than a single-file TW, if you want to take the file with you to other desktops or devices.

But both Tiddlyserver and Bob will allow you to save single file TW files. Bob requires you to install an extra plugin, but otherwise the saving is almost transparent and works with your local directory structure. Tiddlyserver serves up the file as a locally hosted file (e.g. your file is in the browser as 127.0.0.1:8080/myfile.html).  Both Bob and Tiddlyserver can work with any browser.

Another solution is Polly. Polly is a batch shell solution that simply finds your last downloaded version from the browser download directory, and copies it back to the original directory and file name elsewhere on your hard drive. Basically you can run polly once at the start of your session, and then again at the end, and in-between just save using the download saver (the red check mark). Or you can set Polly to run every few minutes so that your file is constantly updated.

Peter Buyze

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Apr 14, 2020, 4:35:21 AM4/14/20
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Mark, what is BOB, where can I find it?




13 Apr 2020, 17:35 by tiddl...@googlegroups.com:
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Mark S.

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Apr 14, 2020, 10:40:37 AM4/14/20
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Bob is an enhanced version of node that can run multiple wikis at once time. It can also be shared in a multi-user manner. That is, if user Alice updates a tiddler, then user Lucy will see the change immediately, rather than having to reboot her node server like she would with plain node js.

But for new users, the more important fact is that Bob can be used to save single-file tiddlywikis -- once they have installed the plugin in the TW file (which will have to be installed using an existing saver technique -- a "chicken and egg" thing). The file can then be saved from any browser and from any directory, while still using it's "real" physical address in the url bar:


There is also TiddlyServer, which does something similar:


TS serves up your single file TW in the url bar (e.g. 127.0.0.1:8080/mydata/myfile.html). It can serve up multiple files and data folder files. It doesn't require a plugin for saving, but it does require you to configure in advance the location of your TW files.

BTW, both Bob and TS will open a command box, at least in Windows. There is some controversy about how off-putting this might be for newcomers. To me it's not a big deal, since every window app opens at least one window. This is just a different kind of window.
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Peter Buyze

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Apr 16, 2020, 2:40:38 AM4/16/20
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Having disabled Violentmonkey, I don't get the Java Script error anymore while using TW from the browser. But using is from TWDesktop I get a JS Error message (no specification is is due to "GM") when I want to save the file - it does not save.

So, I was thinking maybe to start with a fresh TW file and import all my tiddlers AND my settings from the current one.

Does that make sense or would I just import the problem too?

Peter Buyze

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Apr 17, 2020, 7:20:42 AM4/17/20
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I put one of my tiddlers here http://peterjb.tiddlyspot.com/. After amending it TWDesktop will not save it saying there is a JS error - see screenshot.


Date: 16 Apr 2020, 09:40
Subject: Re: [tw5] Saving TW

Having disabled Violentmonkey, I don't get the Java Script error anymore while using TW from the browser. But using is from TWDesktop I get a JS Error message (no specification is is due to "GM") when I want to save the file - it does not save.

So, I was thinking maybe to start with a fresh TW file and import all my tiddlers AND my settings from the current one.

Does that make sense or would I just import the problem too?


JS-error.png

Mat

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Apr 17, 2020, 10:47:12 AM4/17/20
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't TW Desktop for local wikis?

<:-)

Peter Buyze

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Apr 17, 2020, 11:27:47 AM4/17/20
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My wiki is local, i.e. is only resides on my computer. Or is that not the definition of local?

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17 Apr 2020, 17:47 by matia...@gmail.com:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't TW Desktop for local wikis?

<:-)


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Mark S.

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Apr 17, 2020, 11:39:56 AM4/17/20
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I'm not sure I see the relevance, since we're talking about local file saving, right? But yes,
it works best with local TW files.

But, TD will also allow you to serve up data folder tiddlers. It doesn't play as nicely -- you don't get the icon and tw title display. And, worse, you can't close a data folder window and then open it up again. You have to close out the entire session, including the other TW files you may have opened. You may also need to use the task manager to kill the nw.exe process that keeps on running. Then you relaunch TD. So ... there are some convenience issues. But it does work.

Peter Buyze

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Apr 17, 2020, 12:16:50 PM4/17/20
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Mark, I assume you are answering Mat's question.

If I understand you well, yes one can use TD for a single file wiki but there can be hassles of the sort you describe. In my case, I have encountered a different hassle: a JS error which blocks TD from saving a file.

My conclusion is that using TD is more of a headache than the convenience of saving a file easily is worth. Correct?

BTW, a different subject but I could not find the page anymore: I answered to you yesterday that it IS possible to use markdown with spaces in the title of the tiddler one links to, you had said it isn't. Well, after upgrading to 5.1.22 today I found we're both right. You are right where 5.1.22 is concerned, I am for 5.1.21 is concerned. After my upgrade today those links were broken in a file. Apologies to mention it here.

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17 Apr 2020, 18:39 by tiddl...@googlegroups.com:
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Mark S.

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Apr 17, 2020, 1:00:50 PM4/17/20
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Is there anything in particular you do that causes the error?

I downloaded the file and loaded it into TD. Made a tiddler. Saved. No errors.

It may be just by uploading your file to tiddlyspot that you have fixed it (I think you used Mat's interface, maybe? ).

Try downloading the file from tiddlyspot and opening it with TD.

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 4:20:42 AM UTC-7, Peter Buyze wrote:
I put one of my tiddlers here http://peterjb.tiddlyspot.com/. After amending it TWDesktop will not save it saying there is a JS error - see screenshot.


Date: 16 Apr 2020, 09:40
Subject: Re: [tw5] Saving TW

Having disabled Violentmonkey, I don't get the Java Script error anymore while using TW from the browser. But using is from TWDesktop I get a JS Error message (no specification is is due to "GM") when I want to save the file - it does not save.

So, I was thinking maybe to start with a fresh TW file and import all my tiddlers AND my settings from the current one.

Does that make sense or would I just import the problem too?


13 Apr 2020, 17:35 by tiddl...@googlegroups.com:
If you're getting an error with TD, then either

1. You have a corrupted TW file
2. You are using a plugin that doesn't agree with TD

Re #1. You were using Violent Monkey? Possibly some bad code got saved. You could drag and drop your old TW file into a new, empty TW file to create a fixed TW.

Re #2. You could disable any plugins you have installed (don't disable "core"!), save, and reload and see if TD works.

To use node.js to save, you would need to turn your TW into a data-folder tiddler. This is often less convenient than a single-file TW, if you want to take the file with you to other desktops or devices.

But both Tiddlyserver and Bob will allow you to save single file TW files. Bob requires you to install an extra plugin, but otherwise the saving is almost transparent and works with your local directory structure. Tiddlyserver serves up the file as a locally hosted file (e.g. your file is in the browser as 127.0.0.1:8080/myfile.html).  Both Bob and Tiddlyserver can work with any browser.

Another solution is Polly. Polly is a batch shell solution that simply finds your last downloaded version from the browser download directory, and copies it back to the original directory and file name elsewhere on your hard drive. Basically you can run polly once at the start of your session, and then again at the end, and in-between just save using the download saver (the red check mark). Or you can set Polly to run every few minutes so that your file is constantly updated.



On Sunday, April 12, 2020 at 10:46:34 PM UTC-7, Peter Buyze wrote:
Thanks Josuhua, you have described the issue well.

I do not like saving in the cloud, so of all the methods the only one I'd consider is TiddlyDesktop. I tried it but get a JS error notice, as I reported here https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/tiddlywiki/EMXnym2Rbqs/abbmO4SaAgAJ



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Mark S.

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Apr 17, 2020, 1:02:29 PM4/17/20
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On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 9:16:50 AM UTC-7, Peter Buyze wrote:
My conclusion is that using TD is more of a headache than the convenience of saving a file easily is worth. Correct?



No. If you have a corrupt file, it's likely to break eventually even in some other browser. See my other post --
I was able to save your file with TD without problems. It may that it got fixed just by uploading to tiddlyspot.


Mat

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Apr 17, 2020, 2:35:24 PM4/17/20
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Peter Buyze wrote:
My wiki is local, i.e. is only resides on my computer. Or is that not the definition of local?

Well, I replied to your post where you say it's on tiddlyspot, ie:

I put one of my tiddlers here http://peterjb.tiddlyspot.com/. After amending it TWDesktop will not save [...] 

...but never mind then.

<:-) 

Peter Buyze

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Apr 17, 2020, 11:58:55 PM4/17/20
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@Mat: don't understand your comment.

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17 Apr 2020, 21:35 by matia...@gmail.com:
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Peter Buyze

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Apr 18, 2020, 2:11:55 AM4/18/20
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Mark, I tried that, but when I opened it in TD again, made an amendment and tried to save it the same error message popped up.

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17 Apr 2020, 20:00 by tiddl...@googlegroups.com:
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Mark S.

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Apr 18, 2020, 2:54:31 PM4/18/20
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Is yours identical to the one on tiddlyspot ? Because that one is essentially empty. It would be easy enough just to start over with a clean, unbroken file.

Birthe C

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Apr 18, 2020, 4:02:41 PM4/18/20
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Mark,

I am rather sure Peter has a local file that has nothing to do with tiddlyspot.
We have not heard anything about what is in this wiki , when the problem started and changes that might have caused it.

@Peter
We need to know more than a screenshot you attached earlier. I am rather sure most of us have at times seen exactly the same red warning but from different actions.  Editing something and getting it wrong perhaps?
Mark explained earlier on that you could try to disable your plugins. To see if any of them do not work with TD. re-enable one plugin at a time to find the guilty one, if any.

Did you wiki work well with Tiddlydesktop at anytime? Does Tiddlydesktop work with your other wikis?


Birthe

Peter Buyze

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Apr 19, 2020, 12:33:42 AM4/19/20
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Mark, yes. I exported that tiddler from my TW file and imported it in Tiddlyspot. Then from there I exported it and re-imported it into my TW file.



18 Apr 2020, 21:54 by tiddl...@googlegroups.com:
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Peter Buyze

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Apr 19, 2020, 1:56:47 AM4/19/20
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Birthe, Mark, I downloaded a fresh, empty version of TiddlyBlink, opened it in my browser, made an amendment, saved it.

Then I downloaded a fresh version of TD, and opened the file mentioned in the paragraph above, amended it, tried to save it and got the red warning again!!

Something was wrong. I realised that dragging TD to the trash bin, as is the normal way of uninstalling an app on MacOS, was not sufficient. I went to the hidden folders (called Library) and deleted all the left-over TD stuff. And that did the trick !! I can now use TD without any problems, and it's automatic saving is heaven compared with the saving process in the browser.

Many thanks for your help and patience. My apologies for not checking the hidden folder before - I've been on MacOS for a couple of months only.

Issue closed.

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18 Apr 2020, 23:02 by strikke...@gmail.com:
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Birthe C

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Apr 19, 2020, 2:13:20 AM4/19/20
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Peter,

That was some very good news, well done.
I think others have had problems getting rid of everything TD, we do not need to use a MAC to get into this.
Everything is soooo easy (until it is not ;-)

Birthe

Peter Buyze

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Apr 19, 2020, 2:31:48 AM4/19/20
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Birthe, I **do** do my best to sort things at my end. It may not always seem that way, but I honestly do.

Like I said at the end of the other thread, I will post tiddlers on Tiddlyspot from now on.
Thanks again for your help.


19 Apr 2020, 09:13 by strikke...@gmail.com:
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Sylvain Naudin

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Apr 27, 2020, 9:38:44 AM4/27/20
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Le lundi 13 avril 2020 08:02:20 UTC+2, Peter Buyze a écrit :
Thanks TonyM. Yes, Timimi looks like an ideal solution. Unfortunately there is no Chromium version, so I cannot use it.


FYI, Timimi 2.1 is out yesterday, now supports chrome, chromium, opera in addition to firefox.

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