Feedback needed for experimental update to TiddlyBlink

[David Gifford]

Hi all

Looking at updating TiddlyBlink with the features explained in this link: two columns of tiddlers, folding tiddlers, moving tiddlers between columns. A HUGE thank you to Saq Imtiaz and TonyM for their help with this.

https://giffmex.org/experiments/tiddlyblink.experiment.html

Known things to fix:

1) Wide gap between columns when the sidebar is open (we will probably leave this alone for now, very minor issue)

2) Sidebar should probably close by default when shift clicking to start a new column (fixed: problem was a width setting)

3) Close others in viewtoolbar is not working properly (I just need to explain in instructions that it only works within the same story, not across stories)

4) Completely redo the instructions. (I plan to do video instructions)

Comments? Frustrations? Confusion? Questions?

[Birthe C]

Dave,

The big X in Context Search. It is due to Danielo using tw-search when it should be tc-search. Of course it works as supposed but is an eyesore.

Why is the tiddler controls jumping up and down opening a links from the other story or using the toggle story button or just toggling sidebar?

Birthe

[Jack Baty]

Very Roam-like! It does require a rather wide window, even with the sidebar closed. You mentioned the gap so maybe that would help. 

I often use the side-by-side feature in Roam, but haven't felt the need for it with TiddlyWiki because I use the "classic" story view so clicking a link opens the tiddler directly above the current one so I can see them both at the same time that way (depending on how much text, etc) with just a little scrolling.

I'd love to see this fleshed out, though!

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 10:30:36 AM UTC-4, David Gifford wrote:

Hi all

Looking at updating TiddlyBlink with the features explained in this link: two columns of tiddlers, folding tiddlers, moving tiddlers between columns. A HUGE thank you to Saq Imtiaz and TonyM for their help with this.

https://giffmex.org/experiments/tiddlyblink.experiment.html

Known things to fix:

1) Wide gap between columns when the sidebar is open

2) Sidebar should probably close by default when shift clicking to start a new column

3) Close others in viewtoolbar is not working properly

4) Completely redo the instructions.

Comments? Frustrations? Confusion? Questions?

[Birthe C]

Dave

In tiddler TiddlyBlink home you expain how to shift og clik a link and how to close overlapping sidebar with the double arrow icon at the top right of the screen. Remember Shift-alt-S will also do that.

Birthe

tirsdag den 21. april 2020 kl. 16.30.36 UTC+2 skrev David Gifford:

Hi all

Looking at updating TiddlyBlink with the features explained in this link: two columns of tiddlers, folding tiddlers, moving tiddlers between columns. A HUGE thank you to Saq Imtiaz and TonyM for their help with this.

https://giffmex.org/experiments/tiddlyblink.experiment.html

Known things to fix:

1) Wide gap between columns when the sidebar is open

2) Sidebar should probably close by default when shift clicking to start a new column

3) Close others in viewtoolbar is not working properly

4) Completely redo the instructions.

Comments? Frustrations? Confusion? Questions?

[David Gifford]

Hi Birthe, see my replies in bold

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 9:59:17 AM UTC-5, Birthe C wrote:

Dave,

The big X in Context Search. It is due to Danielo using tw-search when it should be tc-search. Of course it works as supposed but is an eyesore.

Where are you seeing this behavior? There is an x to the right of the search bar, but it is the same size as tiddlywiki.com's. And there are no x's in references displayed as context search results. So I am not sure what you mean.

Why is the tiddler controls jumping up and down opening a links from the other story or using the toggle story button or just toggling sidebar?

Tiddler controls jumping up and down? I am not sure what you mean. If you open some system or shadow tiddlers, the tiddler title may start on the viewtoolbar line. Bu the actual toolbar doesn't move up and down. I did make some changes since posting this thread. Refresh the webpage and see if you still see the behavior, and try to describe it more precisely. I am interested in knowing what this is.

Birthe

[David Gifford]

Hi Jack

I adjusted the settings for the sidebar and voila, it does not overlap anymore. But yes, this is not for mobile or really small screens. I use a standard laptop at 1920 x 1080 and it now looks like the attached file.

[David Gifford]

Thanks!

[Birthe C]

Dave,

I see the big X in $:/AdvancedSearch - tab Context search.

The tiddler controls are not jumping any more. I saw it earlier on.

Birthe

[David Gifford]

Good to hear things are no longer jumping!

I think since that is only fixable by changing the plugin and is only viewable when using that tab of advanced search, I should let it be and hope Danielo will update his plugin with that change.

[Peter Buyze]

Good catch, Birthe. I prefer a keyboard shortcut any time.

21 Apr 2020, 18:20 by strikke...@gmail.com:

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[Mat]

Thanks for sharing stuff!

I would like tooltips for all buttons: I've so far only looked at the tiddler tools and there's a curved arrow and a plus that has no tooltip.

Minor but I seem to need to shift-click twice on a link to get the two rivers to appear. And as it appears, the two rivers are at different height from the top edge.

Idea: Maybe the sidebar lists should be on each side of the respective river? I have never used TB in action so I don't know the workflow but the current Open tab seems impractical where the two title lists are shown below one another. 

Since you're creating a new overall app, maybe it's worth considering this aspect on navigation.

Question: Is there a practical reason for the change of theme/palette or merely aesthetic? For a full on application that it seems you're striving for,  I can understand 

<:-)

[David Gifford]

Hi Mat

See my comments in bold

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 1:41 PM Mat <matia...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for sharing stuff!

You are welcome!

I would like tooltips for all buttons: I've so far only looked at the tiddler tools and there's a curved arrow and a plus that has no tooltip.

Ah yes! Tooltips! Forgot about those. I will add those.

Minor but I seem to need to shift-click twice on a link to get the two rivers to appear. And as it appears, the two rivers are at different height from the top edge.

No, just hold shift, then click once. Just tried it again to be sure. Browser issue? Also, try shift+Alt+S.

Idea: Maybe the sidebar lists should be on each side of the respective river? I have never used TB in action so I don't know the workflow but the current Open tab seems impractical where the two title lists are shown below one another. 

The left story will only ever have one tiddler when both stories are open. The right story is a story river that can have multiple tiddlers. So the top of the right pane in the Open tab will never get hidden out of sight.

Since you're creating a new overall app, maybe it's worth considering this aspect on navigation.

I feel the same way you do. When closing a tiddler you should be navigated to the top of the previous tiddler, typically the top of the tiddler above the tiddler being closed. Irks me to no end at tiddlywiki.com. Is there a setting you recommend? Or a plugin?

Question: Is there a practical reason for the change of theme/palette or merely aesthetic? For a full on application that it seems you're striving for,  I can understand 

 

Just aesthetic. There is a theme switcher in the gear sidebar tab, though. I may remove all the dark themes and just stick with tiddlyblink theme, vanilla, and one or two others.

Thank you for your feedback!

<:-)

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[David Gifford]

Ah, and the tiddlers not opening at the right height, that is from Saq's story thing. I will see if I can wade through them to find the problem.

David Gifford

Mexico team leader, Mexico City

Resonate Global Mission
Engaging People. Embracing Christ.
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 1:41 PM Mat <matia...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Saq Imtiaz]

For issue #1, gap between stories, try adding this at the bottom of $:/_sq/Stories/Stories.css. I haven't had a chance to test this properly and won't have a chance to put out an update for a few days yet, but I suspect its the culprit for issue #1. Zoomin storyview has slightly different css, which I have never noticed since I don't use it.

@media (min-width: {{$:/themes/tiddlywiki/vanilla/metrics/sidebarbreakpoint}}) {

.tc-storyview-zoomin-tiddler {

width: calc(100% - 42px);

}

}

For the issue of the close others button, as Dave has discovered, they only work for the tiddlers in that story. Should they close tiddlers in the other story too? I don't know. There are valid arguments for both behaviours. It really depends highly on the workflow you envision. I suspect there will be no clear answers until a few people use this in anger and report back.

Regarding needing a wide window, and comparisons to Roam etc:

It honestly boils down to what we are trying to do here. Are we trying to copy and duplicate the Roam UI? Or are we taking inspiration from it, to offer better affordance for some of the same features and workflow in TW?

It would be incredibly easy to get closer to the Roam UI: narrower second story with no margin or padding on the left, without tiddler toolbar just the x button to close etc. All that is needed is CSS and tweaking some templates. However that would also reduce the amount of flexibilty in workflow offered. Right now the second story can do everything that the first one can. 

In many ways, this is the same dilemma TW always faces. Simplify to make it easier to get started and enable a narrow selection of workflows, or keep it as flexibile as possible but at the cost of more complexity?

Regards,
Saq

[David Gifford]

Hi Saq

Thanks for your input.

FYI, your @media solution made no observable change. (I thought @media was for printing instructions?)

Regarding close others: I think a simple instruction that the close others button only closes tiddlers in that river is sufficient.

Regarding imitating Roam: I like the current set up we have, much of Roam functionality, but presented in a TiddlyWiki way. I don't feel the need to imitate Roam further than that. The instructions will make it clear how to use it in ways similar to Roam.

To be honest, the only changes I think I would like are:

1) If possible, reduce that space between rivers when sidebar closed

2) If possible, have the top of the tiddler that opens in the story river be flush with the top of the left tiddler top when opening the former with shift-click. The scrollbar opens slightly down from the top.

3) Tooltips (I was looking into that when I saw your email come in)

4) I will reduce the number of themes available in the theme switcher

5) I will do tutorial videos and organize the front page and necessary written instructions

6) I will separate the instructions version and an empty version, a la tiddlywiki.com

Blessings, Saq.

[Birthe C]

Dave,

Tooltip, you have create new journal tagged with this one. But it doesn't really. Should it not be create new journal linked to this one?

Birthe

[David Gifford]

Thanks, yes, Birthe!

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[Birthe C]

Dave,

Are you saving space for some secret magic? Top of tiddler looks rather big now with the tiddler controls moved above title. A little less padding perhaps.

Birthe

[Imba Sunder]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 4:30:36 PM UTC+2, David Gifford wrote:

Comments?

 

Great initiative. I am, as many others, also here looking for an alternative to Roam, or maybe just a personal "wiki" with backlinks. This is definitely a step in that direction.

 

Frustrations?

 

I thought this was something I could extend my current TiddlyWiki setup with - as I have in the past using other plugins. But TiddlyBlink though... For some reason it wants to stand not alongside TiddlyWiki but on top of it. I don't want a theme, even if it can be changed. I don't wan't to bloat my setup with a fullscreen-editor - I want backlinks. Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you what TiddlyBlink should be, my frustration lies with me not putting enough weight on the word "adaptation" in the TiddlyBlink by-line. "TiddlyBlink is an adaptation of TiddlyWiki with the goal of helping you see connections between your ideas, and move quickly from one idea to another." Instead I was just happy reading the following part. 

 

Confusion?

 

Why is a fullscreen-editor plugin or for that matter any non-essential plugins even included? With configuration at that which could potentially overwrite an already existing and configured setup.I find it to opinionated. Why can't this be a simple plugin? There already exists an infrastructure for plugins which the contributors of TiddlyWiki has made available - and it's not exactly new. Why is this not a plugin?

 

Questions?

 

Is this open source? If so, would you mind putting it on guthub? And in any case would you mind this being forked?

If I may be so bold to wish or suggest...

1) Turn this into a plugin

2) Put it on github or something if it's open source - any place one can post bugs/pull requests.

3) Split this in two - backlinks and this column thing you're experimenting with. KISS. One plugin for backlinks. One plugin for multicolumn storylines. Users could then pick and chose one or all according to their needs.

[David Gifford]

Hi Imba

Thank you for your feedback! See my responses below in bold

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 6:39 PM Imba Sunder <user...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 4:30:36 PM UTC+2, David Gifford wrote:

Comments?

Great initiative. I am, as many others, also here looking for an alternative to Roam, or maybe just a personal "wiki" with backlinks. This is definitely a step in that direction.

 

Frustrations?

I thought this was something I could extend my current TiddlyWiki setup with - as I have in the past using other plugins. But TiddlyBlink though... For some reason it wants to stand not alongside TiddlyWiki but on top of it. I don't want a theme, even if it can be changed.

 

I am toying with making the upgrade a Vanilla theme, with a link to the TiddlyBlink theme for those who want it.

I don't wan't to bloat my setup with a fullscreen-editor - I want backlinks.

See below

Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you what TiddlyBlink should be, my frustration lies with me not putting enough weight on the word "adaptation" in the TiddlyBlink by-line. "TiddlyBlink is an adaptation of TiddlyWiki with the goal of helping you see connections between your ideas, and move quickly from one idea to another." Instead I was just happy reading the following part. 

My responses below will speak to this. But yes, think of TiddlyBlink like an unofficial 'edition' or 'adaptation' of TiddlyWiki more than like a plugin.

 

Confusion?

Why is a fullscreen-editor plugin or for that matter any non-essential plugins even included?

Literally this morning I deleted fullscreen editor from the file I am using for this update. Like you, I don't see this as essential.

With configuration at that which could potentially overwrite an already existing and configured setup.I find it to opinionated.

I will try to move towards reducing the number of shadow tiddlers I have overwritten, before the update. But most of TiddlyBlink will not overwrite one's existing set up.

Why can't this be a simple plugin? There already exists an infrastructure for plugins which the contributors of TiddlyWiki has made available - and it's not exactly new. Why is this not a plugin?

Basically because I am not a programmer, just a TiddlyWiki enthusiast. I don't know how to package plugins. When the update is all ready I hope to convince someone to package it as a plugin for me. Also, since it depends on other plugins, those will always need to be installed separately and I can't make them part of my plugin.

 

Questions?

Is this open source? If so, would you mind putting it on guthub? And in any case would you mind this being forked?

It is open source. I do not use GitHub, I find it confusing and frustrating. As I said, I am not a coder or programmer. But if you (or anyone, really) would like to add it to your GitHub, you are welcome to do so. This is not a vanity project. I would love for someone more capable than myself to maintain it. My goal is to make the present update and leave it alone except to update it as TiddlyWiki updates to new versions.

If I may be so bold to wish or suggest...

1) Turn this into a plugin

See above

2) Put it on github or something if it's open source - any place one can post bugs/pull requests.

See above

3) Split this in two - backlinks and this column thing you're experimenting with. KISS. One plugin for backlinks. One plugin for multicolumn storylines. Users could then pick and chose one or all according to their needs.

The goal of the multicolumn is to imitate Roam's sidebar. It really opens up possibilities - read one tiddler while editing another, or compare two ideas side by side. If I split into two, the mutlicolumn will be avail as TiddlyBlink at https://giffmex.org/gifts/tiddlyblink.html, and a non-multicolumn version could be a light/inferior version somewhere else.

Thanks again for your feedback! Very helpful. I hope some of my answers were not too disappointing. Blessings.

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[Birthe C]

This is a work in progress. Dave and Saq are actively developing.

Not everybody is using github either.

Birthe

[Imba Sunder]

Have a tiddler [[Person X]] with a custom field "country" with the value "[[Iceland]]". Tiddler contents something like "This person lives in {{!!country}}". When viewed this tiddler will have a link to Iceland just as if the content would have been "This person lives in [[Iceland]]". But... there's no mention of it in the References section. Is this something that could be added?

[Imba Sunder]

Another thing that would make it more Roam-like is if it also showed References when transcluding. In Roam the transcluded page shows a reference to the printing page. I've tried both {{}} and <$transclude> syntax but neither generates a reference.

[Birthe C]

Aren't they softlinks https://tiddlywiki.com/#Hard%20and%20Soft%20Links

[Mark S.]

I liked TIddlyBlink as TiddlyBlink -- I've never used Roam. Does Roam have transclusion?

Adding two columns seems like a breakthrough. I think it's unreasonable to ask

that any implementation of TW act exactly like some other product, because in that case ....

just use that other product ;-)

[Mohammad]

Hi David,

Congratulation of this great tool! I see it has got alto of attention specially those like Roam and here they have a got a personal, offline, private Roam equivalent of course free of charge!

I may have this small comment: Why you call it TiddlyBilink? The tool is at the beginning of its journey and I think renaming is not a big deal!

Why not to use another name? Simply you may drop Tiddly! I am sure you yourself and other people here can propose better name!

--Mohammad

[Imba Sunder]

Why though? I say keep it simple and do the opposite. In fact, three lines of code - that's pretty much what it takes to show backlinks. For three lines to become over I don't know 1000 with a whole bunch of plugins and themes that's just not in the spirit of tiddling and general modular approach to development of software. But to each their own and I commend David for his initiativ and actual execution! Even if I disagree with the actual method. In fact, I'll stop bashing and create my own plugin. edit: I realize I have a negative undertone in my criticism, I apologize. David, thank you for your contribution, it's great that you've taken time to create and share. 

"Tiddlers work best when they are as small as possible so that they can be reused by weaving them together in different ways"

[David Gifford]

fixed.

[David Gifford]

Tool tips now added to buttons in view toolbar, page controls and open tab that lacked them.

[David Gifford]

Birthe, I prefer the empty space to the ugly appearance of tiddler titles that carry over to a second line. And since this is designed for two columns, that is going to happen more often.

[David Gifford]

I'm not sure what you are referring to. Roam shows a link to the page that backlinks to the present page, and transcludes the line  that holds the backlink. Mine does that in simple transclude: A link to the tiddler, and the contents of the tiddler (no way to limit to showing block levels. Tiddlers are considered block level in TiddlyWiki.)

If you mean that the references section to tiddler A should show the references section to tiddler B, that would create an infinite series of references sections, even if it could be done, which I don't think it can.

[Birthe C]

Agree but I meant the space above the tiddler controls.

[David Gifford]

Hi Mark,

1) TiddlyBlink was deliberately created to imitate features in Roam, as an experiment of mine. That is the whole point of it. My own notetaking TW, Idea Stew, builds off of TiddlyBlink, but deviates from it.

2) Roam has transclusion, yes.

3) In this case, TiddlyBlink has a major advantage: it is not a SaaS. That is why people are getting excited about it. It is offering them a good chunk of the Roam experience without locking their data into someone else's service. So it is not unreasonable in this case to replicate many of the features of Roam, but in a TiddlyWiki kind of way.

4) On the other hand I am not doing it slavishly. It would be easy to add TiddlyGraph as TiddlyRoam does, but I don't think that feature of Roam is essential or desired. But the sidebar in Roam is a huge plus for writing, so I first replicated it somewhat with a parallel tab, and now with Saq's Stories not-quite-yet-a-plugin and the folding.

[David Gifford]

Hi Mohammad, thanks! I called it TiddlyBlink before the recent conversation on changing the TiddlyWiki name. First incarnation was called roamwiki. Blink refers to Bi-directional LINK, and also to the fast as a blink of an eye navigation between tiddlers opened up by the bi-directional linking. But Blink by itself seems to refer to a lot of already existing things, so I added Tiddly-.

I am open to a different name. I use the name Idea Stew for my own version of TB, which I think is better for taking notes on reading. Got any suggestions? "Stroll" is a rough synonym of Roam and doesn't appear to be taken. I think I will use it starting with the update, and redirect from TB to that.

[David Gifford]

The space above the tiddler viewtoolbar is exactly the same as https://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html. Or am I misunderstanding you?

[David Gifford]

Hi Imba

The project was to imitate as much of the helpful aspects of Roam as possible in TiddlyWiki.

The primary tiddlers for this transclude backlinks in four different ways, according to one's preferences

$:/.giffmex/ViewTemplate/refscontext

$:/.giffmex/ViewTemplate/refslinks

$:/.giffmex/ViewTemplate/refstranscludeclean

$:/.giffmex/ViewTemplate/refstranscludecollapse

and the buttons

$:/.giffmex/ViewToolbar/new-note-here

$:/.giffmex/ViewToolbar/new-note-here-datetime

If you want just backlinks, I think that might be all you need, other than maybe the Stylesheet, $:/.giffmex/.Stylesheet4tiddlyblink Please get them from https://giffmex.org/experiments/tiddlyblink.experiment.html, though, not from the original TiddlyBlink site.

The plugins are also really helpful though, and imitate Roam functionality, especially the first three:

1. $:/plugins/snowgoon88/edit-comptext adds autocomplete to the linking process

2. $:/plugins/flibbles/relink changes all the backlinks when you change the title of a tiddler

3. The stories "plugin" (still under construction) provides the two column feature which imitates Roam's sidebar. In itself this is really helpful for viewing and editing tiddlers side by side.

4. $:/plugins/danielo515/ContextPlugin is only necessary if you use the 'search results in context' way of viewing references (though I personally don't). This reference view is the closest to Roam in that it singles out the very lines in which the search term appears, so you know whether you need to review that tiddler or not.

5. The list search macro is helpful but not necessary.

If you do your own plugin, I look forward to seeing it!

And yes, negative undertone noted. I am trying to overlook it to be of genuine help to you. I appreciate and accept the apology.

[Mohammad]

I just made a Googling and seems an equivalent may be

Probe

Probe notes

Probe research

...

just some thoughts :-)

--Mohammad

[Julio Peña]

Hello Dave,

If you do happen to change the name as per Mohammad's suggestion...consider "Note Drifter" (inspiration on the fly...haha)

All the Best,

Julio

[Birthe C]

Sure but the buttons is moved up, in total it takes up more space.

[David Gifford]

haha Sorry Mohammad, thanks for the effort, but the first thing it makes me think of is UFO alien probes being inserted in uncomfortable places...

[David Gifford]

Thanks Julio, Drift is another good rough synonymn of Roam. Makes me think of high plains drifter.

My only reservation would be that drifting has a negative connotation for cognition, one's mind drifting from the topic at hand, probably not a good 'selling' point for a notetaking tool.

[David Gifford]

Wow, Birthe,

Both tiddlywiki.com-empty and TiddlyBlink appear in my browser as what appears in your 15-07-38 image. I have never seen it look like the other image. What browser do you use?

[Julio Peña]

Hmmmmm.....come to think of it that IS true (for a selling point) and in that case "Note Treks/ Note Trekker".

(Thinking out loud here)...I also figure one doesn't necessarily have to stick by any antonym to Roam.

One can pick a unique name and then say something to the effect..."and btw most (or all) of Roam's

capabilities are already present in this platform".

Anyhoo, let me not deviate, eagerly anticipating your finished product :)

Just musing,

Julio

[David Gifford]

Thanks Julio,

I agree, not chained to Roam synonyms. That said, Stroll is nice and short, and not taken. That is for now the working title, unless something else blows me away.

Blessings,

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[Birthe C]

Dave,

I use Firefox and your Tiddlyblink looks totally okay, I just made a suggestion. It does matter when the tiddler is folded.

[David Gifford]

Just made major changes - name change, some old features removed, and tutorial. But it is still experimental (at the very least I need to reduce the # of overwritten shadow tiddlers, and Saq's plugin needs to be packaged and possibly tweaked first).

Thank you in advance for your continued feedback.

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 9:30:36 AM UTC-5, David Gifford wrote:

Hi all

Looking at updating TiddlyBlink with the features explained in this link: two columns of tiddlers, folding tiddlers, moving tiddlers between columns. A HUGE thank you to Saq Imtiaz and TonyM for their help with this.

https://giffmex.org/experiments/tiddlyblink.experiment.html

Known things to fix:

1) Wide gap between columns when the sidebar is open (we will probably leave this alone for now, very minor issue)

2) Sidebar should probably close by default when shift clicking to start a new column (fixed: problem was a width setting)

3) Close others in viewtoolbar is not working properly (I just need to explain in instructions that it only works within the same story, not across stories)

4) Completely redo the instructions. (I plan to do video instructions)

Comments? Frustrations? Confusion? Questions?

[David Gifford]

Do you use a tight theme? I am still stymied as to how you get that compact look.

[Saq Imtiaz]

I'll make some time to work on this tomorrow.

[David Gifford]

Cool! Thanks Saq. Did you see my message in Messenger? I did tweak and add tiddlers for your Story plugin

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 11:40 AM Saq Imtiaz <saq.i...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'll make some time to work on this tomorrow.

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[Mohammad]

On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 6:33:59 PM UTC+4:30, David Gifford wrote:

Thanks Julio,

I agree, not chained to Roam synonyms. That said, Stroll is nice and short, and not taken. That is for now the working title, unless something else blows me away.

This is also fine, in comparison to Tiddly+Blink seems a better name! 

Blessings,

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 8:33 AM Julio Peña <jpe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hmmmmm.....come to think of it that IS true (for a selling point) and in that case "Note Treks/ Note Trekker".

(Thinking out loud here)...I also figure one doesn't necessarily have to stick by any antonym to Roam.

One can pick a unique name and then say something to the effect..."and btw most (or all) of Roam's

capabilities are already present in this platform".

Anyhoo, let me not deviate, eagerly anticipating your finished product :)

Just musing,

Julio

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[Ilyusha Nicolas]

>Comments:

Bidirectional linking is definitely the best thing that could happen to TiddlyWiki for me, thanks a lot for making this!

I think both this project and TiddlyMap make it much easier for users to break long and complex sequence of ideas into smaller chunks of expositions to be combined and reused in different sequences of ideas, this is the philosophy of TiddlyWiki and also what makes it so powerful.

I have never used Roam research's product but I think the idea of networked thoughts is you don't learn concepts one by one in a linear chain but you learn by association of multiple concepts in a growing network. I believe both TiddlyMap and TiddlyBlink are needed to do that, TiddlyBlink for the automatic linking and TiddlyMap to generate the network and patterns at different level of abstractions. The maps from TiddlyMap have different "neighborhood scope", which is very useful to trace and connect ideas not immediately linked, so for example if you have like 10 reference links, consider nesting the links inside each other and look at the map instead, this way TiddlyMap and TiddlyBlink complement each other and make each Tiddler simpler, in accordance with the philosophy above.

I stopped using TiddlyMap precisely because it doesn't support automatic generation of small local connections (maps) of related ideas. Doing so manually was too cumbersome, but with this project I am thinking of picking it up again!

>Frustrations:

Your stylesheet

$:/.giffmex/.Stylesheet4tiddlyblink

breaks dark themes, all texts remain black in dark themes, thus unusable.

Also, there are some glitches when used together with TiddlyMap

>Confusions:

Nothing for now!

>Question:

How do I fix the issue of two unwanted references

$:/temp/focussedTiddler
$:/temp/tmap/currentTiddler

keep showing up whenever I enter certain Tiddlers? see attached image. This happens after I import TiddlyMap into TiddlyBlink

I really hope you make it possible to integrate TiddlyMap with this project!

[David Gifford]

Hi Ilyusha, thanks for the feedback! See my comments in bold

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 2:30 PM Ilyusha Nicolas <ilyuk...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Comments:

Bidirectional linking is definitely the best thing that could happen to TiddlyWiki for me, thanks a lot for making this!

You are welcome!

I think both this project and TiddlyMap make it much easier for users to break long and complex sequence of ideas into smaller chunks of expositions to be combined and reused in different sequences of ideas, this is the philosophy of TiddlyWiki and also what makes it so powerful.

I have never used Roam research's product but I think the idea of networked thoughts is you don't learn concepts one by one in a linear chain but you learn by association of multiple concepts in a growing network. I believe both TiddlyMap and TiddlyBlink are needed to do that, TiddlyBlink for the automatic linking and TiddlyMap to generate the network and patterns at different level of abstractions. The maps from TiddlyMap have different "neighborhood scope", which is very useful to trace and connect ideas not immediately linked, so for example if you have like 10 reference links, consider nesting the links inside each other and look at the map instead, this way TiddlyMap and TiddlyBlink complement each other and make each Tiddler simpler, in accordance with the philosophy above.

I stopped using TiddlyMap precisely because it doesn't support automatic generation of small local connections (maps) of related ideas. Doing so manually was too cumbersome, but with this project I am thinking of picking it up again!

Glad you find TiddlyMap complementary with TiddlyBlink. I don't plan to include it but I will link to it as a plugin that imitates yet another feature of Roam, and one that people like yourself find useful.

>Frustrations:

Your stylesheet

$:/.giffmex/.Stylesheet4tiddlyblink

breaks dark themes, all texts remain black in dark themes, thus unusable.

I will look into it. Also, and I make this mistake a lot myself, you are referring to palettes, not themes.

Also, there are some glitches when used together with TiddlyMap

If you have screen shots of style issues happening in TiddlyMap, that would help me a lot.

>Confusions:

Nothing for now!

>Question:

How do I fix the issue of two unwanted references

$:/temp/focussedTiddler
$:/temp/tmap/currentTiddler

keep showing up whenever I enter certain Tiddlers? see attached image. This happens after I import TiddlyMap into TiddlyBlink

That is very strange. My list filter specifically filters out system tiddlers: filter="[!is[system]all[current]backlinks[]!tag[hide]sort[title]] -[is[current]]" - Perhaps the creator of TiddlyMap, or someone else who is more knowledgeable than me can chime in as to why this filter does not filter out these temp system tiddlers? I will also install it in a copy and see if I can do some digging myself.

I really hope you make it possible to integrate TiddlyMap with this project!

I will do my best.

P.S: I updated the experimental file and renamed it Stroll. Check out the changes at https://giffmex.org/experiments/tiddlyblink.experiment.html

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 9:30:36 PM UTC+7, David Gifford wrote:

Hi all

Looking at updating TiddlyBlink with the features explained in this link: two columns of tiddlers, folding tiddlers, moving tiddlers between columns. A HUGE thank you to Saq Imtiaz and TonyM for their help with this.

https://giffmex.org/experiments/tiddlyblink.experiment.html

Known things to fix:

1) Wide gap between columns when the sidebar is open (we will probably leave this alone for now, very minor issue)

2) Sidebar should probably close by default when shift clicking to start a new column (fixed: problem was a width setting)

3) Close others in viewtoolbar is not working properly (I just need to explain in instructions that it only works within the same story, not across stories)

4) Completely redo the instructions. (I plan to do video instructions)

Comments? Frustrations? Confusion? Questions?

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[Sylvain Naudin]

Hi David,

Note a little things, have insert <hr> by error (ok no, I was curious). So later replace this hard separator with CSS rules maybe.

Cheers,

Sylvain

[David Gifford]

Thanks Sylvain. I have made that mistake before, too. But that is a property of snowgoon's plugin. I have to work with what I've got.

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[David Gifford]

Hi Ilya (did you just change your name?) :-)

I updated the Stylesheet at https://giffmex.org/experiments/tiddlyblink.experiment.html

I tried it with four different dark palettes, and looks good.

[Tony K]

Hello David

Thank you for the efforts putting this together, I  hope you do not mind a few suggestions / questions ?

• The "footer" of TiddlyBlink was better to my eyes (simply references with the option to change 'View references as:' from the menu
• Can we hide the "references" none exists?
• is there an easy way to add "breadcrumbs" on top of the tiddler? i.e. From Tiddler 2 you use a link to jump to Tiddler 3 and on the top of Tiddler 3 you have Tiddler 1 >> Tiddler 2 both clickable ? kind of a "Parent - Child" relationship ?
• The indentation between the UL items is somehow big

bug thanks again

[Alex Hough]

Dave,

All this look very exciting.

The first thing I thought was : wouldn't it be wonderful if it had the recent annotation tools -- those on the publisher TW

Alex

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[David Gifford]

Hi Alex,

I didn't find what you are referring to in the toolmap. Do you have a link?

But this sounds like a plugin that users will be able to add onto Stroll / TiddlyBlink, rather than something I should build into it. See Ilya's comments in this thread on wanting it to be more lean.

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[Birthe C]

I think it is from the official plugin library. I also think you are right. Easy for users to install themselves, and it takes 2 plugins to work.

Birthe

fredag den 24. april 2020 kl. 16.36.36 UTC+2 skrev David Gifford:

Hi Alex,

I didn't find what you are referring to in the toolmap. Do you have a link?

But this sounds like a plugin that users will be able to add onto Stroll / TiddlyBlink, rather than something I should build into it. See Ilya's comments in this thread on wanting it to be more lean.

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[David Gifford]

Hi Tony, thanks for your feedback. See answers below in bold.

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 11:43 PM Tony K <akh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello David

Thank you for the efforts putting this together, I  hope you do not mind a few suggestions / questions ?

• The "footer" of TiddlyBlink was better to my eyes (simply references with the option to change 'View references as:' from the menu

Yeah, I swing back and forth between wanting that only in the sidebar and thinking that users will want it right where they view the references. Also, when in two column mode, users will want to hide the sidebar 

• Can we hide the "references" none exists?

I think you can add one to yours by creating an empty viewtemplate system tiddler and tagging it refs.

• is there an easy way to add "breadcrumbs" on top of the tiddler? i.e. From Tiddler 2 you use a link to jump to Tiddler 3 and on the top of Tiddler 3 you have Tiddler 1 >> Tiddler 2 both clickable ? kind of a "Parent - Child" relationship ?

That is something you as a user might want to add. My tiddlers already have too much on the top, and see Ilya's comment in this thread about not adding so many bells and whistles but keeping it lean. That is what the toolmap is for, to add goodies.

• The indentation between the UL items is somehow big

Oops, I forgot to change that. I will fix that!

bug thanks again

 

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 5:30:36 PM UTC+3, David Gifford wrote:

Hi all

Looking at updating TiddlyBlink with the features explained in this link: two columns of tiddlers, folding tiddlers, moving tiddlers between columns. A HUGE thank you to Saq Imtiaz and TonyM for their help with this.

https://giffmex.org/experiments/tiddlyblink.experiment.html

Known things to fix:

1) Wide gap between columns when the sidebar is open (we will probably leave this alone for now, very minor issue)

2) Sidebar should probably close by default when shift clicking to start a new column (fixed: problem was a width setting)

3) Close others in viewtoolbar is not working properly (I just need to explain in instructions that it only works within the same story, not across stories)

4) Completely redo the instructions. (I plan to do video instructions)

Comments? Frustrations? Confusion? Questions?

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[Ilya]

Hi David, yes I changed to a shorter name :))

The new style sheet looks good! I have included screenshots of Stroll vs TiddlyWiki for Spartan Night palette. Few things I immediately notice:

- In Stroll, links to missing tiddlers are not italicized, links to external sites are not underscored.

- Stroll handles transclusion differently, the color of transcluded box seems to be inverted, is this intended? in TiddlyWiki transclusion looks seamlessly merged into background tiddler. (tbh I think TiddlyWiki makes it look better for this palette)

- The color of monospaced code also seems to be inverted.

- After deleting the TiddlyBlink style sheet, the transcluded reference looks like a single link (this is expected)

That's all for now.

[BurningTreeC]

Hi David,

what I've noticed: if you create a tiddler and leave it in edit-mode, then move it to the other column it creates two missing tiddlers there, like:

tiddler 1: "New"

tiddler2: "Tiddler"

so there's a little bug somewhere

all the best, BTC

[Saq Imtiaz]

@BTC thanks, will investigate.

How did you move the tiddler to the other story? Divert button in the edit template, or drag and drop via Open sidebar?

[BurningTreeC]

@BTC thanks, will investigate.

How did you move the tiddler to the other story? Divert button in the edit template, or drag and drop via Open sidebar?

Hi, through the divert button. I didn't try the "Open" sidebar way..

[Saq Imtiaz]

@BTC thanks, will investigate.

Suspect it's due to the tiddler title not being encapsulated in double brackets [[New Tiddler]]

[David Gifford]

Thanks Ilya, I will look at the Stylesheet further on Sun afternoon or Monday. Trying to get away from the compooter today.

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[Saq Imtiaz]

Updates:

• the gap between stories with zoom storyview and sidebar closed should hopefully be resolved
• the divert button in edit mode now works even if the tiddler title has spaces.
• Note the behaviour is currently that it opens the same tiddler in the other story for viewing, as that is what I found most useful.
• There is a strange layout bug with zoom storyview active in the first story, where the top of the first story moves higher or lower depending on content. I have made a quick fix using css, but it causes issues with the animations. Not noticeable with the new shorter animation duration but will be an issue if animations are made slower.
• I've taken a crack at packing all stories related tiddlers into a plugin

Some suggestions:

• References, I would tweak the layout as follows, at the bottom of each tiddler:
  References (eyeicon):
  - reference list
  clicking the icon would either open a reveal widget or a popup to change the options for the references. Showing those options all the time is just adding clutter.
  
  
• Perhaps don't show references on system tiddlers? Or make it a configuration option.
• Create a custom settings tiddler for this adaptation and present options in clearer terminology. New users might not know what a story view is, etc.

https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/tiddlyblink.experiment

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[Dave Parker]

Hi Dave, 

Not sure if this is the right thread for feedback on https://giffmex.org/gifts/tiddlyblink.html , and I didn't read this entire thread (so this may be a repeat question/suggestion), but I tried writing a short story on it (in 30 seconds) and one thing that I noticed was that when you write a sentence with a new link in it, like this:

[[Here's a beginning idea]]

its kind of a boy meets girl, girl turns out to be a [[obvious monsters]], but the boy ends up being a 

I had already made a sentence in another tiddler with the phrase "[[obvious monsters]]" in it, but the tiddler didn't yet exist (as I was quickly writing ideas on the fly), and so when I went to write this above sentence, I typed "[[ob" and the autocomplete didn't suggest "[[obvious monsters]]" because it didn't exist.

I don't know if its possible to fix this, or if it would even be wanted by anyone else, but that's my two cents feedback.

Otherwise,  looking good! Thank you so much for contributing so much to the TW Community :)

[Dave Parker]

Oops, I went to the beginning of this thread and tried the same on https://giffmex.org/experiments/tiddlyblink.experiment.html, and it works even with empty tiddlers, so nevermind - you're way ahead of me :D

[David Gifford]

Hi Saq

I just downloaded the Stroll file from your link. Today is 4-28 at 4:40 CST. I will work off of this one for a while, so before you make changes, contact me, and I will send you what I have. Might be a couple days before I am done with what I want to do. Got a lot going on. Blessings.

[David Gifford]

Hi Saq

I think you may have uploaded the wrong file at that link. I downloaded the file yesterday and only reduced the settings to 1100 so the sidear would not overlap the tiddlers, but none of the things you mentioned in your post are true of it except that the plugin was packaged.

• The width problem between stories when the sidebar is closed is still wide.
• The divert button in edit mode separates titles with spaces and sends one tiddler per word to the other story. But one does not know this when diverting from right to left, because the open tiddler remains the open tiddler, and the diverted tiddlers are hidden, so it looks as if nothing happened.
• Uneven top of stories when tiddler opens in right story.

Could you send me a link by Messenger to the file in which you made the fixes you mention? Thanks in advance.

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[Saq Imtiaz]

As far as I can tell, the correct file was indeed uploaded: 
https://giffmex.org/experiments/tiddlyblink.experiment.html

• Uneven top of stories when tiddler opens in right story.

If you mean the scroll position of the right story, that is the default TW scroll behaviour and not something that I am sure we can tweak, or that I'll have the chance to look into any time soon.

Saq 

[Birthe C]

Changing from one to two stories, jump the right story, going back to one story, the tiddler controls change from above title to beside the title. The position does not matter that much - but the jumping!!!

Birthe

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