Please explain to me why TiddlyWiki is a "Wiki"?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

By way of background the question ...

Please explain to me why TiddlyWiki is seen as a "Wiki"?

1 - It seems to be VERY different to other "Wiki" systems in its fundamental workings & potential.

2 - So, is it helpful to describe it as a Wiki, now?

3 - I always have trouble explaining what is IS, because its so flexible. Is "Wiki" appropriate for such flex? Could there be a better terminology?

4 - BTW, I never have trouble instancing clear USE CASES of TiddlyWki. These are far MORE diverse than any other "Wiki" I have ever seen. In fact I'm not sure such diverse FUNCTION is anything much to do with any "Wiki" per se.

5 - I'd like to be able to describe what TiddlyWiki IS in a way that potential users could better understand it before adopting it. I am NOT sure if "Wiki" is a decent denominator to have in the mix.

Just thoughts.
Josiah

[PMario]

Hi,

Then use: It's a personal web notebook.

-m

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Josiah

By way of background the question ...

Please explain to me why TiddlyWiki is seen as a "Wiki"?

1 - It seems to be VERY different to other "Wiki" systems in its fundamental workings & potential.

The obvious characteristic of a wiki is that anyone can edit it. However, I’ve always thought that more interesting characteristic of wikis at their best is the way that they elevate linking to be part of the punctuation of writing. In other words, features like links, recent changes lists, orphan lists, missing lists, etc.

To me, the anyone-can-edit thing is more of a social thing: a moderation policy.

2 - So, is it helpful to describe it as a Wiki, now?

Probably not, ever since Wikipedia and WikiL**ks hijacked the popular meaning of the word.

3 - I always have trouble explaining what is IS, because its so flexible. Is "Wiki" appropriate for such flex? Could there be as better terminology?

This sounds like a version of the perennial question “Should we rename TiddlyWiki?”. My take on that is:

a) I’d probably call the next backwards-incompatible version of TiddlyWiki something else

b) In technical terms, renaming TiddlyWiki5 could be a monster undertaking depending on how far one went. The name “TiddlyWiki” is riddled through the code and the user interface

c) Having said that, one could imagine some new names to be simpler than others. For example, a name that still abbreviated to TW might be handy

d) If it’s not called TiddlyWiki then we’d probably want to rename “tiddler” too

4 - BTW, I never have trouble instancing clear USE CASES of TiddlyWki. These are far MORE diverse than any other "Wiki" I have ever seen. In fact I'm not sure such diverse FUNCTION is anything much to do with any "Wiki" per se.

Wikis have actually often had application-building functionality right from the beginning. Back in the ‘90s something called http://twiki.org/ was popular, and it still pitches itself as an app building platform. 

5 - I'd like to be able to describe what TiddlyWiki IS in a way that potential users could better understand it before adopting it. I am NOT sure if "Wiki" is a decent denominator to have in the mix.

I personally don’t think the name is an impediment to understanding TiddlyWiki; I think for most people it’s just a string of letters. Having said that, as we’ve discussed elsewhere, there are people that viscerally hate the name, and it would certainly be true that they’d be happy if we changed the name.

Best wishes

Jeremy

Just thoughts.
Josiah

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[@TiddlyTweeter]

PMario wrote:
Then use: It's a personal web notebook.

Because TiddlyWiki is NOT intrinsically a personal notebook.

Its a Vole Tracker Collaboration Project :-)

What happens is when I ask "WHAT is TiddlyWiki" I get AN APPLICATION reply.

In a way its good. In another way its, somehow, VERY incorrect.

Josiah

[Lost Admin]

For me TiddlyWiki is a wiki. To me, the defining characteristic is that a wiki is a self-editing website. That is the content can be edited directly on/from/in the website itself. While collaboration is certainly very common, I don't view this as "core" to my internal definition of "wiki" (although I believe it is considered to be core in most definitions).

I have no opinion on the name changing or staying the same.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Lost Admin wrote:

For me TiddlyWiki is a wiki. To me, the defining characteristic is that a wiki is a self-editing website. That is the content can be edited directly on/from/in the website itself...

Absolutely right IMO. But its also more, I think ... if "self-editing" includes "serious self-coding". AFAIK, the dynamic reformulation of the "Wiki Workings" in TiddlyWiki is somewhat more than self-editing?

What I am trying to get at is not so much what is shared with "Wikis"--it is what is different (an evolution)?

J.

[TonyM]

I believe Wiki cam from the Hawaiian language.

• I am used to the name and understand the real cost of changing the name, so are somewhat reluctant for this to happen. However I know there comes a time.
• The truth is it is somehow hard to get away from quizzical looks when I tell strangers about it, They think I said tiddlywinks and it somewhat damages the authority that it should have.
• The fact is If I said Raspberry Pi  I would possibly get the same looks, I imagine apple once caused this.
• It is a short 4 syllable name with each being quite "sharp" and the mouth does not roll onto the next syllable try thinking about the transition by saying 121c vs  tid lee wick ee
  

Other discussions in this forum of late have discussed the shear complexity of describing tiddlywiki due to its diverse nature. We do need to have distinct focus areas or we will only attract those who stumble on it from a related keyword or work of mouth.

 

Without starting a Guessing Competition I would think a word like Chameleon  combined with a suitable IT related word like info-chameleon cloud-chameleon. 

All the big brands in the world become somewhat obscure/abstract because they do not want the name to suggest too much when they actually provide many products and services.

In some ways that is what tiddlyWiki does, it is a Wiki, the best wiki, but it is much more.

Regards

Tony

[Mark S.]

On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 6:43:57 PM UTC-7, TonyM wrote:

 

• The truth is it is somehow hard to get away from quizzical looks when I tell strangers about it, They think I said tiddlywinks and it somewhat damages the authority that it should have.

When referring to it in the company of adults, I tend to refer to "TW" (tee-double-you) or "TW technology". Then the addressee feels sheepish because they don't know what "TW" refers to.


-- Mark

[PMario]

On Thursday, April 26, 2018 at 3:43:57 AM UTC+2, TonyM wrote:

...

In some ways that is what tiddlyWiki does, it is a Wiki, the best wiki, but it is much more.

So we name it BestWiki. So if someone searches for the "best wiki" software they will find it for sure :)

-m

[Ste Wilson]

Mark says...

"When referring to it in the company of adults, I tend to refer to "TW" (tee-double-you) or "TW technology". Then the addressee feels sheepish because they don't know what "TW" refers to.

:D Brilliant! That's the one. TW Technology. Someone update the powered by tiddlywiki banner!

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ste, Mark S. & TonyM

Mark says...
"When referring to it in the company of adults, I tend to refer to "TW" (tee-double-you) or "TW technology".

TonyM wrote...
... I would think a word like Chameleon  combined with a suitable IT related word like info-chameleon cloud-chameleon.

Exactly. Using some VAGUE indeterminate, though directed looking term, does have merit in that then our thing has a unique "label" that needs filling in. It can be motivating to find out "what is that?"

I believe this is better than being ABDUCTED semantically into probably not-so-relevant felt-meanings, the upfront resonance of "Wiki", in the longform (TiddlyWiki), unfortunately evokes all sorts of stuff.

Its perhaps harder for some folk here to understand that "Wiki" semantically for, I think, most people, is a "codswallop" word-bucket. Since its not immediately obvious what it means the mind will fill in the semantic void with Julian Assange & Wikipedia which they are far more likely to know about.

I hope I'm not coming over as too pedantic. But the "implicit implying of meaning" of Names & Logos in a world without other information is significant.

In any case, I frankly can't see how much of the functionality of TW you are using everyday is anything like other extant "Wiki" systems. So part of my point was to try better articulate how it is NOT like other Wiki systems to better tease out more accurate descriptions.

Accurate vagueness is, IMO, better than inaccurate false concretion. (<-- pompous sentence of the day. But in the ball-park.)

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy

Jeremy Ruston wrote:

The obvious characteristic of a wiki is that anyone can edit it.

Yeah. But that applies to a vast realm of stuff that are not thought of as "wikis" at all. I mean, a lot of better WordPress elaborations do that. And include markup systems & so on.
 

However, I’ve always thought that more interesting characteristic of wikis at their best is the way that they elevate linking to be part of the punctuation of writing. In other words, features like links, recent changes lists, orphan lists, missing lists, etc.

Right. Its a user-needs driven writing environment that creates both content, and to an extent, structure. 

And that is one point where I think the contrast with TW starts. Because TW goes so far with that I'm really not convinced it shares anything much more than rudimentary markup with the others.

This sounds like a version of the perennial question “Should we rename TiddlyWiki?”. My take on that is:

a) I’d probably call the next backwards-incompatible version of TiddlyWiki something else

b) In technical terms, renaming TiddlyWiki5 could be a monster undertaking depending on how far one went. The name “TiddlyWiki” is riddled through the code and the user interface

Right.

I'm not really suggesting "Change its name" for TW5. I think that would a complex nightmare that would just likely lead to confusion. Not a good idea.

Rather, I'm thinking into ways to describe it without falling into the existing semantics & meanings of "Wiki" now. Ways that get what it IS more accurately.

d) If it’s not called TiddlyWiki then we’d probably want to rename “tiddler” too

In a discussion some months ago on Twitter it became clear to me you need to be British to immediately "get" Tiddler ... Other English speakers, Americans and Australians, for instance, don't have the immediate visceral understanding of what it means. They simply don't label those small fish like Brits do, or have an affective relation to them.

BUT I'm not sure "Tiddler" ever needs to go or even "Tiddly".

Why? Because they have semantic clout because they not been infiltrated by other meanings so you can "Let the words mean what you want them to mean". I think that is good. Most well-named software does that ... it creates a semantic field of it own. And for Tiddly & Tiddler its done that, I think.

Rather, I think "Wiki" has become seriously loaded. And, truthfully, I don't think most of the extant, known, Wiki systems are much like TW once you get beyond markup. (I'm not forgetting http://twiki.org/ -- but even that I think is not what most potential end users think a wiki is either.)

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy

Footnote to last.

The only issue I can see with "Tiddly" is it can evoke "diminutive" with possible semantic resonance of "under-powered / featured" (which it definitely isn't, rather the opposite). But, TBH, I'm not sure non-British speakers would have that possible chain of meanings.

Even with that as a possible issue, "Tiddler" remains a very apposite descriptor of "fundamental fragments" ... In usage it also works semantically as an "efficient unit" ... for instance a Tiddler that does a list is highly efficient and direct. So the label "Tiddler" I think remains suitably flexible and fits well actual usage in building wholes from fragments using fragments that compound fragments.

I doubt anyone could do better on "Tiddler."

Best wishes
Josiah

[Ste Wilson]

We have the TWechnology, we can make stuff TWetter than it was. Twetter, stronger, faster.

From the 6 Million Dollar Tiddlywiki.

[TonyM]

Josiah et al,

On further reflection tiddlywiki is already a unique and somewhat indestinct name and exists in great numbers in search engines. Just what we need, and already have.

Perhaps instead we need to place keywords around it such as;
Tiddlywiki platform
Applications on tiddlywiki
Tiddlywiki ecosystem
Universal tiddlywiki platform
Tiddlywiki development environment
Tiddlywiki sdk software development kit/platform
Hosting with tiddlywiki
Website development on tiddlywiki
Responcive websites with tiddlywiki
Develop on tiddlywiki
Host tiddlywiki anywhere

These terms and phrases in reference to tiddlywiki will represent its broad functionality in diverse areas.

Tiddlywiki has already established it's single file credentials, now we need to promote it beyond that.

The next thing is to promote it to the descreet applications.
Notepads on tiddlywiki etc..

Design your own software/applications with tiddlywiki.

Food for thought
Tony