Bundling - It would help - HOW to do it reliably?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

A wall I am hitting is staying clean in organisation in moving plugins and macros & normal tiddlers between TWs.

As i get to know more I customise more. Its getting unwieldy (very).

I have sets of plugins, macros & normal tiddlers. Everytime I drag them from one TW to another I have to MANUALLY remember what they are and do them one by one. Its laborious & error prone.

I know that people have made "bundlers" in the past to address this issue. How good are they? Where are they? how easy are they?

I do think its an issue.

For instance, @telmiger's ToDoNow, excellent plugin, has dependencies. One, his own ListReveal, and two other plugins by other authors you have to fish about to get hold of.

Would it not be BETTER if you could drag-n-drop ONE bundle?

Best wishes
Josiah

[Mark S.]

Couldn't you export them to a JSON file, and then just drag and drop the whole thing back in on new implementations?

Mark

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark

I think you are right. But there is a missing piece somehow. Something like A Picklist.

What, in my case, would do it is if I could on IMPORT check the items I need later and THEY get put into a list I can either JSONise from or drag-n-drop from.

I think in a way, part of what I'm pointing at is that MEMORY is inefficient. One needs a procedure proximal to advent. Something like that.

Best wishes
Josiah

[PMario]

Hi Josiah,

I think the easiest way to bundle stuff is: 

 - by opening every tiddler I want to export
 - Then open the AdvancedSearch tiddler,
 - Select the Filter tab and copy this into the input area.

[list[$:/StoryList]] -$:/AdvancedSearch

 - Now I get a list of all open tiddlers, without the AdvancedSearch.
 - Hit the "export" button and you are good to go.

have fun!
mario

[PMario]

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 8:24:17 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:

 - Select the Filter tab and copy this into the input area.

[list[$:/StoryList]] -$:/AdvancedSearch

You actually don't have to remember this, because it's in the filter dropdown selector if you hit the "more" button.
Near the end of the list is: "Tiddlers in the story river excluding ... "

-m

[Thomas Elmiger]

Ciao Josiah,

Am Montag, 29. Mai 2017 19:18:04 UTC+2 schrieb @TiddlyTweeter:

For instance, @telmiger's ToDoNow, excellent plugin, has dependencies. One, his own ListReveal, and two other plugins by other authors

Just a little remark on this and why I think independent plugins are valuable. One thing is Listreveal – you are right, this is a dependency and I will look into tag-bundles so you should be able to import both my plugins in one drag-and-drop-action. Another thing is: The other plugins (one for checklists and one to set a deadline-datefield) are addons you CAN use, not dependencies you HAVE TO use. If you don’t need checklists or deadlines you don’t install them. If you find other plugins that do the same you can use them. If my recommendations don’t fit for someone, people could even write their own plugins or macros to do what THEY want.

Thinking and developing this way we can help to keep wikis lean and lightweight, but this flexibility comes with a cost. Users must keep track of the stuff they use. Maybe the most valuable addons are the ones they develop themselves …

So for case 1, two plugins that should come bundled, there is hope. Case 2, independent plugins and own developments: As a plugin author I will leave that up to users.

Buonanotte,
Thomas

[Mark S.]

You kind of do have the pick list. Import your JSON bundle. Go to the configuration plugin page and disable all the items that you don't want activated immediately. Activate them when you need them.

Mark

[Danielo Rodríguez]

I really think that the export functionality requires a bit of work.

It is very hard to export certain list of unrelated tiddlers without polluting them with export tags.

It would be ideal to have a search bar where you search for every tiddler and then you can click on each tiddler add this to export list. Then hit export and you are done. This should be something tiddlywiki could provide default, not a hidden community plugin.

[PMario]

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 10:51:57 AM UTC+2, Danielo Rodríguez wrote:

I really think that the export functionality requires a bit of work.

It is very hard to export certain list of unrelated tiddlers without polluting them with export tags.

There is no need to use tags, to get a list of exportable tiddlers. Just read my comments. no tags involved.
 

It would be ideal to have a search bar where you search for every tiddler and then you can click on each tiddler add this to export list. Then hit export and you are done. This should be something tiddlywiki could provide default, not a hidden community plugin

That's exactly the way I did describe.

The list is presented in the open tabs.
Tiddlers, need to be opened for review anyway. So the story river is the perfect place for the export filter.

-mario

[Mat]

One may wish to bundle stuff into a separate file but also as a separate entity within TW.

The bundling Josiah refers to in the initial post is clearly about the latter, i.e more akin to a plugin, that can be transferred more directly between TWs by drag'n drop.

I agree we need a simple bundler feature. The closest we have, for off-the-cuff bundling, is the recent "tag'n drag" i.e to tag the desired tiddlers and then use the tagpill as a drag handle. I propose here that this is extended to allow arbitrary (filtered!) lists of tiddler so one is not forced to tag the tiddlers (and thereby modify them!). If you agree with that github proposal, please comment or at least add a like to it :-)

It would be useful and cool with a unified UI for both exporting, making a plugin and bundling. As this thread shows, there is clearly overlap.

BTW, also this issue is relevant for the topic.

<:-)

[Mat]

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 8:24:17 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:

This is really cool and IMO we should have a ready made tool button that sets this filter and executes the export dialogue.

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:

The bundling Josiah refers to in the initial post is clearly about the latter, i.e more akin to a plugin, that can be transferred more directly between TWs by drag'n drop.

Exactly.

An easier way to register key macros, plugins, templates etc so I can more easily track what I added / made that often I want to copy over to a new TW.

Amongst the procedural ideas I had was ... that the IMPORT system allows you to add, via an additional checkbox, selected titles of the Tiddlers imported, to a Tiddler called something like "My Manifest" such that they can be dragged and dropped off that list to a new TW. And to which one can arbitrarily add anything else you need. Something like that. IF the contents of that list could also be bundled seamlessly, so much the better.

A think a critical point is WHEN all this happens. At least for my working practice, if I don't note what I add when I add it, later I no longer know what I am looking for.

The EXPORT route outlined by PMario is excellent. But its still assuming I have the kind of recall I don't have, mentioned in my previous paragraph.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Is not the tinka plugin what you need then ?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Danielo

I should try it.

You need understand that TINKA to me is the heights Developers use not what an ordinary user could for self use.

Josiah, x

[Mat]

Josiah,

You need understand that TINKA to me is the heights Developers use not what an ordinary user could for self use.

In the Oxford meetup, I'll give a small presentation how to make a plugin with Tinka (which, of course, is created by Andreas Hahn not me). It will be broadcasted/recorded for youtube. It really is not difficult.

That said, making plugins ought to be even simpler. I don't see why it can't be done "live". It is, after all, a fully structured process; Just like you can type markup and have it parsed right away, as seen in edit mode using the preview feature, you should be able to type text and have it converted in real time to be in the shadow tiddler format. Of course, plugins typically contain the content of several tiddlers - an idea would be to have all tiddlers that are tagged in some particular way (e.g the plugin title?) be automatically merged. Or have a UI where you drag'n drop titles onto the plugin tiddler to have them merge.

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

Good to know. I had a further thought about this which is something to do, I think, with implicitly functioning concepts of plugins. The kind of idea i formed of a plugin is that its something special, and something that meets certain tech standards.

It seems to me that "bundles", "collections" of things, has merit as too. As an easy way of moving things about. And as a possible way that "collectors" or "curators" could gather together in one "bundle" all tiddlers needed to effectively be a whole edition or app. These would have less the atmosphere of "plugin" which often conveys idea of an integrated unit you don't mix and match.

Hope this is clear.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Josiah

On 31 May 2017, at 18:20, @TiddlyTweeter <tiddly...@assays.tv> wrote:

It seems to me that "bundles", "collections" of things, has merit as too. As an easy way of moving things about. And as a possible way that "collectors" or "curators" could gather together in one "bundle" all tiddlers needed to effectively be a whole edition or app. These would have less the atmosphere of "plugin" which often conveys idea of an integrated unit you don't mix and match.

I’m repeating myself here, but I believe that what TiddlyWiki calls a “plugin” is what you are calling a “bundle”: it’s a generic mechanism for packing multiple tiddlers into a single tiddler so that they can be installed and manipulated as a unit.

The docs at http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins acknowledges the everyday meaning of “plugin” as an optional installable thing, but then in the second paragraph goes on to describe the specific meaning within TiddlyWiki. To me, the text seems clear and unambiguous, but perhaps we can concentrate some effort on improving it; we’re too late to change the terms that we use.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

[Jeremy Ruston]

On 1 Jun 2017, at 10:48, Jeremy Ruston <jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:

To me, the text seems clear and unambiguous

Just to be clear, I didn’t mean to imply that the documentation was adequate, just that it’s hard for me personally to see how it could be any clearer (no doubt because I’m so close to it).

Best wishes

Jeremy.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy

I think part of my issue between "bundles" and "plugins" is I have this idea that you can't delete bits (i.e. the individual tiddlers) of plugins? Maybe I'm not right? "Bundles" I was thinking more of a way of storing & transporting Tiddlers that I could then freely delete what I don't need. A sort of registration system. A "manifest" that can transfer the contents of what it lists. Something like that.

Josiah

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Josiah

I think part of my issue between "bundles" and "plugins" is I have this idea that you can't delete bits (i.e. the individual tiddlers) of plugins? Maybe I'm not right?

There’s no UI for deleting tiddlers from within a plugin, but there’s no reason such an operation couldn’t be implemented.

As a plugin distributor, I’m not super keen on encouraging people to delete tiddlers from within plugins that I distribute. There’s a good chance that they will delete something that is necessary. As the developer, I then have to laboriously help them debug why things don’t work. Tech support is much easier if everyone is using the same thing.

"Bundles" I was thinking more of a way of storing & transporting Tiddlers that I could then freely delete what I don't need.

There’s no UI at present but plugins would absolutely support that use case.

A sort of registration system.

Not exactly: a plugin is a container for shadow tiddlers.

A "manifest" that can transfer the contents of what it lists. Something like that.

Hmmm that sounds like a different thing, not so much a container as metadata that identifies a bunch of separate tiddlers. Those are fundamentally different approaches, and not equivalent.

The closest we have to the manifest idea is the new <$draggable> widget that can be used to drag an arbitrary group of tiddlers identified by a filter.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

Josiah

On Thursday, 1 June 2017 11:53:22 UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

On 1 Jun 2017, at 10:48, Jeremy Ruston <jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:

To me, the text seems clear and unambiguous

Just to be clear, I didn’t mean to imply that the documentation was adequate, just that it’s hard for me personally to see how it could be any clearer (no doubt because I’m so close to it).

Best wishes

Jeremy.

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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Tx Jeremy

Jeremy: As a plugin distributor, I’m not super keen on encouraging people to delete tiddlers from within plugins that I distribute.

This is exactly the issue I'm stumbling on. I have held back from doing plugins for simple transfers because at the normal user level they look sacrosanct. And likely quite rightly so.
 

Josiah: "Bundles" I was thinking more of a way of storing & transporting Tiddlers that I could then freely delete what I don't need.

Jeremy: There’s no UI at present but plugins would absolutely support that use case.

Here's a case that I hope makes clearer what I am getting at...

1. I have a TW that works well. It has its functionality because of its additions: plugins, normal macros, lists and some vanilla tiddlers.
2. I start a new TW and its going to be MUCH EASIER if I can in one manoeuvre transfer my loved bespoking from (1). At the moment I have to recall what I did and d-n-d over one by one.
3. But, as is, IF I made them a plugin I could not delete items once transferred. But that won't fit the utility of the new TW which does not need half of the items.

I hope its a bit a clearer that, in a significant way, a distinction between "plugins" and "bundles" does have some merit.

Best wishes

Josiah

[PMario]

Hi,

As Josiah wrote. ... I think that the main difference between a plugin and a bundle is, that the bundle packages and imports "standard" tiddlers, that can be deleted, if not needed. ...

The "manifest" that Josiah mentioned brought me to an idea.

eg: Create a tiddler named: manifest with the following content

HelloThere
Learning
[[Working with TiddlyWiki]]


Then open the AdvancedSearch: Filter and enter:

[enlist{manifest}]

Which gives you a nice list, that can be exported as *.json file. If imported it does the expected thing.

I think, we have all the bits and pieces together. Just a simple UI may be needed. The extended UI exists as the "Tinka" plugin.

Just some thoughts.

-mario

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mario

As Josiah wrote. ... I think that the main difference between a plugin and a bundle is, that the bundle packages and imports "standard" tiddlers, that can be deleted, if not needed. … 

Indeed, as you go on to say, it sounds like we are talking about JSON files with some additional UI (and state) to simplify repeatedly exporting the same selection of tiddlers.

Best wishes

Jeremy

The "manifest" that Josiah mentioned brought me to an idea.

eg: Create a tiddler named: manifest with the following content

HelloThere
Learning
[[Working with TiddlyWiki]]


Then open the AdvancedSearch: Filter and enter:

[enlist{manifest}]

Which gives you a nice list, that can be exported as *.json file. If imported it does the expected thing.

I think, we have all the bits and pieces together. Just a simple UI may be needed. The extended UI exists as the "Tinka" plugin.

Just some thoughts.

-mario

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[PMario]

On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 3:51:13 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

As Josiah wrote. ... I think that the main difference between a plugin and a bundle is, that the bundle packages and imports "standard" tiddlers, that can be deleted, if not needed. … 

Indeed, as you go on to say, it sounds like we are talking about JSON files with some additional UI (and state) to simplify repeatedly exporting the same selection of tiddlers.

I do have a very rough prototype for the right sidebar. I'll post it soon as a "bundle" :)

-m

[PMario]

Hi folks,

I did throw together a rough bundling prototype for the right sidebar. I did use existing stuff and no special CSS. ... But I think it's pretty usable already.

If you drag and drop import the .json file you'll get 5 tiddlers.

1) Bundles ... new sidebar tab
2) core/ui/Buttons/export-bundle ... new export button

bundle-x  .... sample data
bundle  ... sample data
bundle-y ... sample data

1) creates the list and has a "new bundle" button

Play with it and give feedback. ... So I can create a plugin

have fun!
mario

--------------------

EDIT: Removed the attachment in favor of the plugin. See: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/_Uqbg08Pjow

[PMario]

Hi,

If you d&d import it to tiddlywiki.com, the sample bundles actually export something useful :)

-m

[Andreas Hahn]

Hi Josiah,

I fear this is slightly off-topic, but I've got 2 remarks with regards
to bundles, especially for the ones you seem to be talking about, which
are the ones which include "comfort features" or content, that you would
like to have access to across new and old TW's.

So far it has been sufficient for me to use plugins, because it also has
become very easy to have a local plugin library from which you can pick
and choose what you need in the current wiki. And while it takes a few
clicks to get it going, it does give one a nice overview of the plugins
you use.

When it comes to Tinka, I have tried to make it as easy to use as
possible and while I agree, that especially adding new tiddlers to a
plugin still requires one to search for it via the Tinka UI, I think it
is already a good tool to modify and update plugins very quickly. That
being said, I can imagine adding even more comfort features in the
future that integrate into the story river. For quick and easy d&d of
entries between wikis though, nothing really beats the export feature as
PMario said.

/Andreas

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Andreas

I really liked your post very much because it clarifies that the issue is NOT just technical, its also CONCEPTUAL.

Andreas: Tinka UI, I think it is already a good tool to modify and update plugins very quickly.

I totally agree. And if I gave any impression otherwise know it was not intended.

To make clear: the issue is in NO WAY anything to do with TINKA, nor TW's Plugin mechanism for that matter.

Its more the question of transferability in a package (a bundle) that MIGHT include plugins. Its a different kind of issue. Its no critique of what you have done in any way.

Josiah

[Mat]

@PMario - great stuff!!!! :-D

 

1) Bundles ... new sidebar tab

IMO putting it as a sidebar tab is a bit OT. But it would probably fit in the Tools sidebar!

Play with it and give feedback. ... So I can create a plugin

There is no feedback if a title is missing - which will happen if it was misspelled.

This may be tricky, but it would be good if one didnt' have to explicitly name every title. I.e if it allowed for filters too.

...and trickiest of all: As noted previously, when it comes to transferring sets of tiddlers between TWs, I think drag'n drop is superior. Is it possible to "export" the list into some kind of tiddler... perhaps a JSON tiddler in memory similar to (but not the same as) a plugin?... that can then be dragged into another TW where it becomes tiddlers?

 <:-)

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mat

On 1 Jun 2017, at 17:56, Mat <matia...@gmail.com> wrote:

...and trickiest of all: As noted previously, when it comes to transferring sets of tiddlers between TWs, I think drag'n drop is superior. Is it possible to "export" the list into some kind of tiddler... perhaps a JSON tiddler in memory similar to (but not the same as) a plugin?... that can then be dragged into another TW where it becomes tiddlers?

You know that the <$draggable> widget allows tiddlers to be dragged between different TW windows? I think that everything you are describing is possible with the core.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

The only thing left for me to comment, since you guys are keen on my kinda case, for which I am really grateful, is this: the WHEN of this is as important as the HOW.

My single biggest issue is TRACKING what I added to function is WHEN I added it.

95% of my issues are likely that. Meaning, having an easier way to ongoingly Register changes in function due to new macros or plugins, such that I can bundle them later, with clarity.

Best wishes
Josiah   

[PMario]

On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 6:56:05 PM UTC+2, Mat wrote:

@PMario - great stuff!!!! :-D
 

1) Bundles ... new sidebar tab

IMO putting it as a sidebar tab is a bit OT. But it would probably fit in the Tools sidebar!

Yea. I was thinking about this too. ... But for the experiment I wanted to make it as visible as possible. ... It's just a different tag for the Bundles tiddler to achieve this.

 

Play with it and give feedback. ... So I can create a plugin

There is no feedback if a title is missing - which will happen if it was misspelled.

Thought about this too, but this is a bit trickier.

... I.e if it allowed for filters too.

Did test this already. It needs a slightly different mechanism and a new "new filtered bundle" button. ... Not sure about the UI yet.  Using filters is part of the AdvancedSearch: Filter tab. .. I don't want to duplicate this. ...

-mario

[PMario]

On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 9:18:06 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

The only thing left for me to comment, since you guys are keen on my kinda case, for which I am really grateful, is this: the WHEN of this is as important as the HOW. 

 

My single biggest issue is TRACKING what I added to function is WHEN I added it.

IMO this could be achieved with a special "[days[-5]" filter. 

-m

[wimm]

just an idea

instead of exporting and importing plugins or bundless you could also delete all unnecessary tiddlers (in a copy of your wiki).

this can be done by a button which deletes all "mundane" tiddlers except for plugin and macro tiddlers.

pruning the remaining tiddlers is less work than d&d each individual tiddler

if interested I made a button with 2 search fields. Delete normal tiddlers matching a string except tiddlers matching another string (if you want to delete all normal tiddlers then the second string should be something like 222222) tw 512.

[PMario]

On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 9:10:02 PM UTC+2, wimm wrote:

just an idea

instead of exporting and importing plugins or bundless you could also delete all unnecessary tiddlers (in a copy of your wiki).

 
Tiddlers, that are part of a plugin can't be deleted. ... That's part of the idea with bundles. ... Bundles may contain stuff, that you don't need and if so, you are able to delete them.

I'll publish a new "bundle" with several improvements shortly.

 - 2 export concepts
   - Bundle function as shown in the existing example
   - Filtered bundles. So you can use filters instead of list tiddlers by name

 - Config option to select position eg:
   - SideBar or
   - MoreSideBar

 - several examples for "useful" filters
   - including a preview filters in AdvancedSearch

 - visible info about number of tiddlers, that will be exported
   - eg: 3/4 ... 3 out of 4 tiddlers will be exported. ... So there may be a typo ..

ToDo

 - make filtered bundle settings compatible with the "AdvancedSearch: Filter tab". So they will show up there too.
 
have fun!
mario

[@TiddlyTweeter]

PMario wrote:

I'll publish a new "bundle" with several improvements shortly.

Great stuff! I wanted to check with you whether "bundles" will be able to smoothly incorporate plugins?  FYI, here is a Use Case ...
 

The items you currently need to post to and read Twitter in Tiddlywiki at the moment consist of plugins by different authors, macros, a special tiddler that gets inserted in the <head> section, icons, & tiddlers of documentation. Basically, taken together, they form an add-hoc application package.

This is a good example where having the items persistently listed in one bundle would be really helpful.

Best wishes
Josiah

[PMario]

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 11:13:45 AM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

PMario wrote:

I'll publish a new "bundle" with several improvements shortly.

Great stuff! I wanted to check with you whether "bundles" will be able to smoothly incorporate plugins? 

Bundling is _not_ plugin creation! ... Bundles are per definition tiddlers, that can be deleted. Tiddlers that come with plugins are shadow tiddlers and can't be deleted.

If you want to deal with plugins use Tinka. ... The tool exists. .. I don't intend to invent something new in that direction atm.

At the moment I'm fixing the tiddler names. ... I'm not sure yet, if the "bundle" extension should be shipped as a plugin or a bundle.

have fun!
mario

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario

I think you are missing my point. MY idea :-) of a bundle was a combo of plugins & normal tiddlers. I.e. a TRANSPORT mechanism. I don't need to make them plugins. All I am asking is whether existing plugins could be included in one to facilitate easy copy between TW?

Is this a headache :-).

Best wishes
Josiah

[PMario]

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 4:45:06 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

I think you are missing my point. MY idea :-) of a bundle was a combo of plugins & normal tiddlers. I.e. a TRANSPORT mechanism. I don't need to make them plugins. All I am asking is whether existing plugins could be included in one to facilitate easy copy between TW?

Technically it's possible. I need to think about it. ...
 

Is this a headache :-).

Kind of. ... TW plugins can have a "license". In most cases they are very flexible. MIT or BSD. So they can be easily re-distributed. But that's not always the case.  ...

I know, that the user has to take care of this. But never the less it's a thing, that a developer should be aware of and provide some information to the end-user and imo the bundling system should help the authors here. This is additional work and also adds complexity.

You may be aware of the licensing thing, but your users may have no idea. .. So they are not even aware, that they have or cause licensing problems.

The second thing is, that plugins can be updated, independently of any content. So if you bundle a plugin with your content, users may import "old" plugins with your content. So they'll get import warnings and don't know, what to do, because the expectation is, that it's just content.

After some time I'm sure that there will be requests, to automatically handle this problem. Eg. Don't bundle the plugin, but just a link to the plugin source. And import the latest plugin form the original source. ... Just a guess. ... I personally wouldn't want to carry around outdated plugins with my content. ... because sometimes they are much bigger as my content. ..

just some thoughts.

have fun!
mario

[PMario]

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 5:41:57 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 4:45:06 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

I think you are missing my point. MY idea :-) of a bundle was a combo of plugins & normal tiddlers. I.e. a TRANSPORT mechanism. I don't need to make them plugins. All I am asking is whether existing plugins could be included in one to facilitate easy copy between TW?

Technically it's possible. I need to think about it. ...

I did a short test. ... It is already possible to do this. Even with the version I did post earlier in the thread.

-m

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

All I am asking is whether existing plugins could be included in one ...

Technically it's possible. I need to think about it. ...
 

Is this a headache :-).

Kind of. ... TW plugins can have a "license". In most cases they are very flexible. MIT or BSD. So they can be easily re-distributed. But that's not always the case.  ...

Right. That was my thought too. Its partly why I held back so much on this. Even though I do think "bundling" is a very good practical idea, but it needs to include plugins to be really useful, IMO. We need to be able to move stuff around more easily IMO. But the "sacrosanct" nature of plugins matters. One needs respect authors.
 

The second thing is, that plugins can be updated, independently of any content.

Right and that is BOTH a benefit & a downside. For functional TW's its sometimes better NOT to have the latest version. It does happen that something is working fine and a plugin author adds something that then breaks things. I guess, overall, my interest in bundles is knowing its included plugins that work WELL ENOUGH.

I think playing with bundles (which you have skill for, and I don't), is ALSO interesting for issues it brings up.

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario

As I think more about this I don't see licensing issues IF the plugin can be bundled exactly as it is. The "bundle" is just a transport mechanism

Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario

I did a short test. ... It is already possible to do this. Even with the version I did post earlier in the thread.

Excellent news for a transfer enhanced world! :-)

Happy
Josiah

[PMario]

Here is a new version:

THIS IS STILL BETA !!! use with care. I'll probably change the names again!

- 2 export concepts
   - Bundle function as shown in the existing example
   - Filtered bundles. So you can use filters instead of list tiddlers by name

 - Config option to select position eg:
   - SideBar or
   - MoreSideBar

 - several examples for "useful" filters
   - including a preview filters in AdvancedSearch

 - visible info about number of tiddlers, that will be exported
   - eg: 3/4 ... 3 out of 4 tiddlers will be exported. ... So there may be a typo ..

 - make filtered bundle settings compatible with the "AdvancedSearch: Filter tab". So they will show up there too.

feedback very welcome!

@Josiah ... Have a closer look at: bundle-plugins tiddler.

have fun!
mario

[PMario]

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 8:55:48 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:

 - visible info about number of tiddlers, that will be exported
   - eg: 3/4 ... 3 out of 4 tiddlers will be exported. ... So there may be a typo ..

Clicking the number of the "Filtered bundles" will open the AdvancedSearch tiddler to test the filter

-m

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario,

Your Bundler is already one neat bit of kit!

PMario ...
Here is a new version...

@Josiah ... Have a closer look at: bundle-plugins tiddler.

I tested it on simple TWs. So far so good :-). Next I'll test it with copies of TWs I'm working in. Below comments and suggestions.

COMMENTS

1 - IMO, I think it looks best under the "More" menu.

2 - Its great that The Bundler can bundle itself into a bundle :-).

3 - The filter examples with live testing are excellent.

4 - Of course one can already export to a JSON. But the key benefit with your Bundler is that you can create many selections, combinations, etc and keep them, they PERSIST. For some uses--where you are often moving things between TWs--it eases management a lot.

5 - It enhances EXPORT in general. Complex Exports get easier and can be built bit by bit (using the non-filtered list approach). When the Bundler is finished and known to be stable I'd recommend it to any new user to better understand the export mechanism. Its effectively a tutorial in it.

6 - Its a way to create persistent MANIFESTS that can be easily edited, added too or deleted, all in one place. For instance, it allows a user to curate collections of Tiddlers. Say one has created some SVG icons others might like, create a bundle of them. Then you make one more icon. You just add that one item to the bundle you already made. Updating lists is very easy.

7 - FWIW, one way I will use it is to LOG things I IMPORT I will want to delete later. Its one of the downsides of TW that its sometimes hard to know what you did when and this largely helps me address that in a simpler way. Its particularly relevant if you are "evolving" a TW, where you use various plugins & macros that later you won't need and want to get rid of.

8 - In the tests I have done so far it worked perfectly for transferring plugins. Impressive!

9 - I had trouble with it in a TW 5.1.13 with counts not appearing and it not exporting. I'm not sure why.

SUGGESTIONS

10 - Provide an OPTION when creating a bundle to automatically include The Bundler itself (i.e. all the tiddlers that will enable bundling to work in the TW that will import the JSON). 

11 - Can the "Bundle Tiddler" list always, by default, be included in the Export along with the actual items?

12 - Can "Bundle Tiddlers" have a DESCRIPTION field,  that would display at the top, before the Tiddler text, when you viewed that Tiddler? Then one could add a brief note about what is in the Bundle.

13 - Is there an easy way to ADD the results of the last completed IMPORT Tiddler (i.e. Tiddlers listed in $:/Import after an import) to a special bundle called "Import Manifest", or some such, without having to do it manually?

14 - Can there be way to configure the Tiddler link "Search via a filter expression" in Advanced Search to open your excellent $:/wikilabs/doc/table-all-filters, rather than go to TiddlyWiki.com?

15 - There are two misspellings of AdvancedSearch in $:/wikilabs/ui/ControlPanel/bundles-position as "AdvancesSearch", as well as "advances search".

BROADER THOUGHTS

16 - Is there a way that the list of Tiddlers in a Bundle list could be passed to a BULK DELETE mechanism? My rationale here is that the Bundles will list Tiddlers for me that I may want to Export, but also, in the future, DELETE. Perhaps that's not quite a right thought here, but there is something about bundling which I suspect could make bulk procedures more generally easier?

I hope this is clear. If anything is confusing let me know & I'll clarify.

Best wishes

Josiah 

[PMario]

On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 11:30:18 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

9 - I had trouble with it in a TW 5.1.13 with counts not appearing and it not exporting. I'm not sure why.

I'm using the "enlist" operator. ... Which was added with 5.1.14. ... I'll have a look, if there is a different way to get the same result. ... but no promises here.

-m

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario

FYI. That is NOT important for me. Everything real I'm working on is in 5.1.14.

Best wishes
Josiah

On Wednesday, 7 June 2017 17:03:12 UTC+2, PMario wrote:

On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 11:30:18 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

9 - I had trouble with it in a TW 5.1.13 with counts not appearing and it not exporting. I'm not sure why.

I'm using the "enlist" operator. ... Which was added with 5.1.13. ... I'll have a look, if there is a different way to get the same result. ... but no promises here.

-m

[PMario]

On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 5:06:16 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

FYI. That is NOT important for me. Everything real I'm working on is in 5.1.14.

Fixed the typo. "enlist" was added with 5.1.14. my bad.
-m

[PMario]

Hi Joshia,
Thanks for detailed feedback!

On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 11:30:18 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

COMMENTS

1 - IMO, I think it looks best under the "More" menu.

Yea. The finished stuff may land there by default.

2 - Its great that The Bundler can bundle itself into a bundle :-).

Yes. ... I still think, I'll create a bundler plugin, to "protect" the functionality. The "edition" will then contain both. The plugins and the example ... as a bundle. .. we'll see.
 

3 - The filter examples with live testing are excellent.

Yea. I'm proud about this feature. .. It also links the new bundling stuff to the existing core functionality.
 

4 - Of course one can already export to a JSON. But the key benefit with your Bundler is that you can create many selections, combinations, etc and keep them, they PERSIST. For some uses--where you are often moving things between TWs--it eases management a lot.

That was the intention.
 

5 - It enhances EXPORT in general. Complex Exports get easier and can be built bit by bit (using the non-filtered list approach). When the Bundler is finished and known to be stable I'd recommend it to any new user to better understand the export mechanism. Its effectively a tutorial in it.

As written above. I'd like to create an edition for the presentation.
 

6 - Its a way to create persistent MANIFESTS that can be easily edited, added too or deleted, all in one place. For instance, it allows a user to curate collections of Tiddlers. Say one has created some SVG icons others might like, create a bundle of them. Then you make one more icon. You just add that one item to the bundle you already made. Updating lists is very easy.

We will see, how this workflow works out. ... It was the easiest way I could imagine as the minimal working function.
 

7 - FWIW, one way I will use it is to LOG things I IMPORT I will want to delete later. Its one of the downsides of TW that its sometimes hard to know what you did when and this largely helps me address that in a simpler way. Its particularly relevant if you are "evolving" a TW, where you use various plugins & macros that later you won't need and want to get rid of.

Interesting approach.
 

8 - In the tests I have done so far it worked perfectly for transferring plugins. Impressive!

 Since plugins are tiddlers, it accidentally worked out of the box :))
 

SUGGESTIONS

10 - Provide an OPTION when creating a bundle to automatically include The Bundler itself (i.e. all the tiddlers that will enable bundling to work in the TW that will import the JSON). 

Will think about this. ... may be a new "stamp-snippet" in the edit toolbar. ?!?
 

11 - Can the "Bundle Tiddler" list always, by default, be included in the Export along with the actual items?

Hmmm, ... As a type of TOC... will need to have a closer look here. Not everyone may need / want this.
 

12 - Can "Bundle Tiddlers" have a DESCRIPTION field,  that would display at the top, before the Tiddler text, when you viewed that Tiddler? Then one could add a brief note about what is in the Bundle.

Should be possible. ... we'll see.
 

13 - Is there an easy way to ADD the results of the last completed IMPORT Tiddler (i.e. Tiddlers listed in $:/Import after an import) to a special bundle called "Import Manifest", or some such, without having to do it manually?

When the import is "completed", we could add a ... "create bundle" button. .. Will need to have a closer look. .. not sure.
 

14 - Can there be way to configure the Tiddler link "Search via a filter expression" in Advanced Search to open your excellent $:/wikilabs/doc/table-all-filters, rather than go to TiddlyWiki.com?

Should be a relatively simple PR for the core docs. 
 

15 - There are two misspellings of AdvancedSearch in $:/wikilabs/ui/ControlPanel/bundles-position as "AdvancesSearch", as well as "advances search".

will have a look
 

BROADER THOUGHTS

16 - Is there a way that the list of Tiddlers in a Bundle list could be passed to a BULK DELETE mechanism?

Yes, ... but ... Bulk deleting is a very destructive action. Se we will need to be very careful here.  

 

My rationale here is that the Bundles will list Tiddlers for me that I may want to Export, but also, in the future, DELETE. Perhaps that's not quite a right thought here, but there is something about bundling which I suspect could make bulk procedures more generally easier?

I do understand this need. ... Bulk importing and then deleting stuff, you don't need is much easier then importing one by one, what you need.

have fun!
mario

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario

A couple of emphasis points by me ...

TT: 11 - Can the "Bundle Tiddler" list always, by default, be included in the Export along with the actual items?

PM: Hmmm, ... As a type of TOC... will need to have a closer look here. Not everyone may need / want this. 

Its not a big overhead. Its easy to delete. But for folk who have the Bundler installed it would be INVALUABLE :-)
 

TT: 16 - Is there a way that the list of Tiddlers in a Bundle list could be passed to a BULK DELETE mechanism?

PM: Yes, ... but ... Bulk deleting is a very destructive action. Se we will need to be very careful here.  
 

TT: My rationale here is that the Bundles will list Tiddlers for me that I may want to Export, but also, in the future, DELETE. Perhaps that's not quite a right thought here, but there is something about bundling which I suspect could make bulk procedures more generally easier?

PM: I do understand this need. ... Bulk importing and then deleting stuff, you don't need is much easier then importing one by one, what you need.

I agree and disagree  :-). I agree doing anything destructive in TW is dangerous as there is no real UNDO. I disagree on imported Bundles in that they are exactly defined specific Tiddlers. The worst that could happen is you'd have to re-install a bundle.

Its not so much I'm thinking this should be a mechanism for Bulk Delete itself, rather that it highlights a possible way to MORE SAFELY APPROACH IT.

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario

A footnote ...

TT: 7 - FWIW, one way I will use it is to LOG things I IMPORT I will want to delete later. Its one of the downsides of TW that its sometimes hard to know what you did when and this largely helps me address that in a simpler way. Its particularly relevant if you are "evolving" a TW, where you use various plugins & macros that later you won't need and want to get rid of.

PM: Interesting approach.

My God, isn't everyone doing this?

J, :-)

 

[codacoder...@outlook.com]

This is frankly marvelous. Perfect for a situation I keep on running into (and perfectly documented by TiddlyTweeter).

I don't know what the formal definition of an "edition" is, but Bundles is certainly an ad hoc edition-creator for use between one's local TWs.

Excellent work, Mario!  Thank you!

[PMario]

On Thursday, June 8, 2017 at 5:06:07 PM UTC+2, codacoder...@outlook.com wrote:

I don't know what the formal definition of an "edition" is, but Bundles is certainly an ad hoc edition-creator for use between one's local TWs.

I'm using editions as a documentation platform for 1 plugin. eg: https://wikilabs.github.io/#edition-tocP:GettingStarted%20edition-tocP

So there are no bells and whistles, that could confuse users. They should be able to see the "pure" plugin functionality

In contrast there are other editions, where the edition uses several plugins to fulfill a special purpose: also see: http://tiddlywiki.com/#Editions

Excellent work, Mario!  Thank you!

Thank you for testing it. ... more functions are on the way :)

have fun!
mario

[PMario]

On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 6:42:16 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

A couple of emphasis points by me ...

TT: 11 - Can the "Bundle Tiddler" list always, by default, be included in the Export along with the actual items?

PM: Hmmm, ... As a type of TOC... will need to have a closer look here. Not everyone may need / want this. 

Its not a big overhead. Its easy to delete. But for folk who have the Bundler installed it would be INVALUABLE :-)

Just thought about it:

Have a look at the "tagged-test" tiddler and add the filter like this: [tag[test]] tagged-test   ... done! Super easy and full user control :)

-m

[PMario]

On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 6:55:16 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

A footnote ...

TT: 7 - FWIW, one way I will use it is to LOG things I IMPORT I will want to delete later. Its one of the downsides of TW that its sometimes hard to know what you did when and this largely helps me address that in a simpler way. Its particularly relevant if you are "evolving" a TW, where you use various plugins & macros that later you won't need and want to get rid of.

I did just implement an import-hook, that will allow us to create an "import.bundle" log tiddler. The mechanism will append imported titles to the log tiddler, until it is renamed, or deleted. ... The setting can be switched on and off in the ControlPanel - off course.

-m

[@TiddlyTweeter]

PMario

BRILLIANT. thank you!

J.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario, thanks. It was very easy. Good stuff! J.

TT: 11 - Can the "Bundle Tiddler" list always, by default, be included in the Export along with the actual items?

 
 PM: Just thought about it: Have a look at the "tagged-test" tiddler and add the filter like this: [tag[test]] tagged-test   ... done! Super easy and full user control :)

[PMario]

I did post an INTRO thread with the Version 0.1.0 beta: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/_Uqbg08Pjow

Important: The above version invalidates all the bundles posted here!!!

have fun!
mario

[PMario]

Hi folks,

I did remove my attachments from the thread here, in favor of the plugin. See INTRO: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/_Uqbg08Pjow

have fun!
mario