Why is there no IRC channel & should we make one?

[Luca Dorigo]

Hi,

I've read previous posts about moving to different forums and the reasons why GG is good for our needs, but there isn't much talk about a live chat. I think IRC is far superior to forums for quick questions, especially for noobs: it's interactive, so people can quickly ask follow-up questions and/or find out exactly what the problem is without waiting a long time between each answer.

Is there any specific reason it hasn't been done?

Querying ChanServ on Freenode shows that someone registered a Tiddlywiki channel 12 years ago:

[09:49:43]  <gloomy> info #tiddlywiki

[09:49:47]  -ChanServ- Information on #tiddlywiki:

[09:49:47]  -ChanServ- Founder    : zyga

[09:49:47]  -ChanServ- Registered : Jun 23 16:20:17 2005 (12y 42w 0d ago)

[09:49:47]  -ChanServ- Last used  : Oct 18 12:25:51 2005 (12y 25w 2d ago)

[09:49:47]  -ChanServ- Mode lock  : -s

[09:49:47]  -ChanServ- *** End of Info ***

However there is usually no one in the server. According to Freenode's policy channels starting with `#` are official channels for a project, so it is possible to reclaim it if the original creator isn't reachable. 

[Jed Carty]

I used the irc channel briefly but I am not sure if anyone actually said anything in it.

I would be fine with using it again and I would help answer questions when I was around.

[Luca Dorigo]

Until the channel is pointed to and designated as official help channel in various places (documentation, this group, tiddlywiki website, github, etc.) there's never going to be enough people to bring it to life.

There should also be some people willing to be operators (I wouldn't mind helping, but I don't have much experience with TiddlyWiki, have only been using it for about a month).

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Two bingos.

Luca: Until the channel is pointed to and designated as official help channel in various places there's never going to be enough people to bring it to life.

There should also be some people willing to be operators...

It would be great. But, TBH, I really don't think there are enough activists here to consistently support that. Its part of a more general issue that we have a vibrant "community" in GG groups but its proved very difficult to transfer that vibrancy to anywhere else--though Twitter use is slowly growing (with a very different userbase).

Why? Simple lack of numbers, I think.

Could be worth trying to see what happens though.

Best wishes
@TiddlyTweeter

[Mark S.]

The complaint is made (sometimes by me) that one can not easily find things in the google forums. But at least you can find it. My understanding is that  everything on IRC pretty much disappears. If you weren't following and capturing the information, it's gone. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me, which is a real time saver ;-)

-- Mark

[Luca Dorigo]

True (although logging is possible), but the point of IRC is not to have retrievable information - more to get quick help on mostly rapidly solvable issues. If I have to come ask a question here, I'm stuck until someone answers, sometimes hours later. On IRC a newcomer can get an answer in the minute and get on with what he was doing, which is especially important at the beginning when you are confused about basic stuff.

The kind of questions asked on IRC are not the same as on StackOverflow, for example.

The main issue of TiddlyWiki (along with the fact that few people know about it) is that it has a rather steep learning curve, so I think that kind of support might be valuable.

I guess the feasability of this depends on whether @Jermolene (how do you tag people on GG?) thinks it's worth it to reclaim the channel and point to it.

[Mark S.]

Whether you get an answer or not will depend on whether someone is available. I don't see how the platform would change that.

-- Mark

On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 10:32:11 AM UTC-7, Luca Dorigo wrote:

True, but the point of IRC is not to have retrievable information more to get quick help on mostly rapidly solvable issues. If I have to come ask a question here, I'm stuck until someone answers, sometimes hours later. On IRC a newb can get an answer in the minute and get on with what he was doing, which is especially important at the beginning when you are confused about basic stuff.

The kind of questions asked on IRC are not the same as on StackOverflow, for example.

[Luca Dorigo]

Have you used IRC before? There's a totally different dynamic compared to forums. It's not only about how many are available - people don't usually leave a GG tab open in the background and answer questions as soon as there are new ones - and that's the usual behavior on live chats like IRC.

[Birthe C]

Hi Luca,

When it was discussed earlier

 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tiddlywiki/tiddlywiki$20chat$20freenode%7Csort:date/tiddlywiki/6_pcabhUeM4/2hcLN9QmEQAJ I tried it, I never saw any activity.

I think the people able to answer your questions will do so in this group. No one has unlimited time. Answering the same questions over and over at several platforms will not help that. A lot of the same people are working on their own projects often ending up making TW5 better or create great plugins we can all use.

People in this group comes from all over the world. That means when you ask you question the people who might answer it could be sleeping or be at work.

You are right that links to the channel will bring more people to it. Before you have to make sure that it is not only people wanting to ask....but also enough to answer otherwise everyone end up disapointed.

Birthe

[Mark S.]

Have you used IRC before? There's a totally different dynamic compared to forums. It's not only about how many are available -

Yes, I have. And I've used other chat services. What I remember in particular is that I lost all the communication I had with a departed family member. I could have used some special saving mechanism I imagine, but sometimes things that don't happen automatically don't happen at all.

It would be another kind of tragedy for people to spend effort on creating solutions, and then have it lost to the community.

people don't usually leave a GG tab open in the background and answer questions as soon as there are new ones - and that's the usual behavior on live chats like IRC.

Really? I do ! But even when I don't, it's only a bookmark away. The tag only takes 5 seconds to come up. If I don't have time to read or answer, then it doesn't matter whether it's up or not.

I've noticed that most of the beginner's don't really have simple questions. They've already been through the standard documentation. Many of the responses will require multiple options or special code examples -- it's not in the standard documentation and wouldn't be easy to create on a small screen.  I was trying for awhile to capture this information as PR's, but became frustrated by the process. But at least it's in the Google mail.

-- Mark

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote ...

I've noticed that most of the beginner's don't really have simple questions.

Side note: I think that is a very astute, useful observation.

In my mind: I'm wondering if that is because already with TW specifically, in this GG group, you need to go beyond "normal"? I sort of secondarily wonder about the folk who never asked anything. TBH though the GG group is really great, it's not exactly what you would call an "easefull abc" to enter. I do sense that some folk feel they have to "prepare" for it?

Best wishes
Josiah