Tiddly Extension for Firefox 57?

[Norm Davis]

Edited again: 3-22-2020 After getting a storm of notifications on tiddler regarding saving tiddly files I decided to see what's actually going on.

On https://tiddlywiki.com/ Getting Started I found everything I needed to know. I upgraded 5.1.14 to 5.1.21 here https://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html without a problem. I routinely use Tiddly desktop but also have Timmi and Node.js (which is confusing & complicated to me, so I stick with what I know)

When I originally posted here Firefox had just destroyed their browser, v57 leaving the Tiddly team in a mess. They have since resolved these issues x10. Firefox and Chrome both are have chosen to develop their browsers in a number of ways not friendly to folks who create add-ons or products like Tiddlywiki.

[TonyM]

Norm,

Solutions may come forward to make a new tiddlyfox in time, but for now unlikley, There has being a lot of discussion on this because browser makers are adding security that will make it difficult to use a simple file save.

There are dozens of alternatives available. To start consider TiddlyDesktop, tiddlyserver or using firefox Esr extended support release, a portable version is available at portableapps.com

Others may have better answers and your choices will depend on your requirements and expertise.

Always ask for help here if you are stuck but I expect the community will provide some more mature solutions soon.

Personaly I am using tiddlydesktop for my tiddlywiki classic wikis and tiddlyserver for most other single file wikis and some nodejs ones. I also have firefox esr portable app available as a backup.

regards
tony

[Mark S.]

You know, there really ought to be a sticky for this topic. Only a little more than a fortnight and the big change happens. There is no official replacement for TiddlyFox because the new changes to FF restrict the browser from this kind of saving.

There's been a lot of discussion on this issue, but strangely not in the last week. A quick summary of approaches:

* Don't upgrade your firefox for awhile
* Use a different browser (Firefox ESR, Beaker, Pale Moon)
* BJ is working on an extension that allows the default save mechanism to work with links
* Arlen has a really good Tiddly Server that can serve single-file TW's or data TW's
* Use the default save mechanism, possibly with a launch shell script to make it painless
* Tiddly Desktop

There may be others, but I think this captures the general categories.

Comments:

BJ's solution seems most like the TF solution. On my Windows system it allowed me to specify via junction links exactly where I wanted to save.

The batch script approach allows you to launch your TW like an app, after which you just have a regular TW session.

If you use TiddlyServer or TiddlyDesktop you no longer have a simple, single-file solution that can run even when you can't run regular executables.

Stay tuned!
Mark
 
On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 2:33:51 AM UTC-7, Norm Davis wrote:

Firefox and Tiddly have long been great companions, but Firefox is going sideways and the old Firefox Tiddly extension for saving in the new Firefox 57 doesn't work.  Will there be anyone working on a rewrite or a new extension?  Hope so!  Thanks for any helpful info. 

[RichardWilliamSmith]

You know, there really ought to be a sticky for this topic. 

Our ship sails without a captain, it seems.

RR 

[Eric Shulman]

On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 5:12:38 PM UTC-7, RichardWilliamSmith wrote:

You know, there really ought to be a sticky for this topic. 

Our ship sails without a captain, it seems.

ok.. I just made it sticky ("display at top")

-e

 

[Mark S.]

Here's some links to content and/or discussions re possible solutions:

• Use a different browser (Firefox ESR, Beaker, Pale Moon)

• Firefox ESR: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/4yyMPH-0hXg
• Beaker Browser: https://beakerbrowser.com/
• Pale Moon: http://www.palemoon.org/

• BJ is working on an extension that allows the default save mechanism to work with links

• https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tiddlywiki/BJ%7Csort:date/tiddlywiki/cw12FCTu3hA/J8gEy8E-AQAJ
• Arlen has a really good TiddlyServer that can serve single-file TW's or data TW's
• https://github.com/Arlen22/TiddlyServer

• Use the default save mechanism, possibly with a launch shell script to make it painless

• https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tiddlywiki/batch%7Csort:date/tiddlywiki/_0AnexWjjcs/XYJiuco-CgAJ
• Tiddly Desktop
• https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/VBi8hqpf-B8

[Diego Mesa]

Has Jeremy made any comments on this?

[Jon]

Firefox is going sideways and the old Firefox Tiddly extension for saving in the new Firefox 57 doesn't work.

Totally sideways. Not sure why Mozilla cares about users who need to be protected from themselves. There's IE for that.

With all the change to both TW and browsers over the last couple years, many might not have stopped to notice that TW is now exclusively a personal wiki. An incredibly powerful one, true, and I love all my highly customized TWs (essentially easy-to-build personal Web apps). But, remember when one of the most valuable features of TW was that you could share it by just e-mailing a file. With Firefox 57, sharing a TW is officially dead, unless you only want to share with savvy users who can be persuaded to install Pale Moon (plus an extension) or TiddlyServer (yikes).

[Mark S.]

You can still mail it for someone else to read it -- on any browser. And they can still save using the default save mechanism -- on any browser.

I have memory problems with my FF. It accumulates memory the longer I run it until eventually it crashes. I hope the new changes fix this, at least.

Mark

[Eric Shulman]

On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 7:47:48 PM UTC-7, Jon wrote:

Firefox is going sideways and the old Firefox Tiddly extension for saving in the new Firefox 57 doesn't work.

With Firefox 57, sharing a TW is officially dead, unless you only want to share with savvy users who can be persuaded to install Pale Moon (plus an extension) or TiddlyServer (yikes).

I realize that many people seem to have an aversion to using the TWCore built-in "download saver".... but it DOES work... on nearly ALL browsers.  Sure... it's not a "one click to save" solution, but with a few simple settings, it is actually quite useful.  For example, I use Chrome.  I can set the "download location" (Settings > Advanced > Download) to "Ask where to save each file before downloading".  When saving for the first time, I can select the folder containing my single-file TiddlyWiki.  That folder location is remembered and re-used for later saving.

While I am working on changes, I can save at any time, selecting the currently opened filename (e.g., "myfile.html") and it will prompt to confirm overwrite (ok/cancel).  Alternatively, I can let the browser automatically add the "(n)" suffix to the current filename, effectively creating "checkpoints" while I work, and then remove the suffix to overwrite the original file only when I am satisfied with all my changes.  If a reload is needed to load changes to plugin code, I can save and then open the most recent checkpoint file in another tab, allowing me to verify that the changes are loading correctly, and continue working with the newly changed code.  When I am certain of the changes, I can then save again, overwriting the original file.

I also use the "download saver" when trying out new things.  I just open http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html, create a few "test" tiddlers, and then save the changes to a local file, where I can continue as above.... and I use the same procedure to try out other posted TWs, regardless of hosting.  I simply visit the URL, and 'save changes' to download a copy, and then continue with the locally-saved copy.

If I am saving to TiddlySpot, I can set the URL and password (using the built-in TW setup), and then use "save changes" to upload the file.  To revert to local saving, I just clear the TiddlySpot URL, and the "save changes" command then saves locally again.

I agree, it's not the MOST elegant process at times, and there are some variations in the setup depending on your browser of choice, but once you have it set, the process is consistent and reliable... and it doesn't require ANY additional  installation of browser plugins, local servers, etc.  It even works on my Android tablet (though you can't change the default download location, so everything is put into the "Downloads" folder) and it's pretty much future-proof against the whims of the browser developers, unless they decide to eliminate downloading altogether (which is highly unlikely).

enjoy,

-e

Eric Shulman

TiddlyTools.com: "Small Tools for Big Ideas" (tm)

InsideTiddlyWiki: The Missing Manuals

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S.

This is the BEST overview I have seen so far on SAVING in TiddlyWiki now.

Josiah

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi Eric,

In my opinion, the problem with relying on the Download Saver for many people is the chance of losing work accidentally. It depends, I suppose, how one actually uses TW. I tend to have it open all the time for making notes and personally, I wouldn't be at all happy to have to manually save everything.

Regards,

Richard

[Arlen Beiler]

I believe there is now an option (or will be in 5.1.15) to trigger the download saver with autosave. But if you tend to keep TiddlyWiki open, then the download saver is not your best option, since you are tied to one browser anyway and there are better solutions. But the download saver still works very well for sharing wikis between users and allows quick edit and save and dump the file back into an email. 

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[Egbert]

Hi Eric, re your post:"Alternatively, I can let the browser automatically add the "(n)" suffix to the current filename". Can you just briefly indicate how this is done in Firefox and Chrome?

Thanks for the good overview.

Egbert

[Mark S.]

That's the default if you just choose a download directory in the options.

Mark

[Egbert]

Ah okay, thanks Mark

[Schorschi]

I'm using TiddlyWiki classic. When I save an edited TiddlyWiki file using the browser's Ctrl-S shortcut, then close, then reopen the file, I get a message that the file “has been incorrectly saved“. The backstage link is then duplicated at the top of the page. When I edit that page, save again (using browser's Ctrl-S), close and reopen, I get that error message again and now have three backstage links at the top of the page, though only one of these, the bottommost, works. However, when I click on the working link I get three sets of backstage menus.

This happens in Firefox (56.0.1) and Chrome (62.0.3202.62).

I suspect that each time I save a new TiddlyWiki file using the browser's save command a new instance of the backstage link and area will be added to the newly saved file. Obviously, that is unacceptable.

What am I doing wrong and/or how can I prevent or rectify the duplication of backstage links and areas?

[Eric Shulman]

On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 4:39:17 AM UTC-8, Schorschi wrote:

I'm using TiddlyWiki classic. When I save an edited TiddlyWiki file using the browser's Ctrl-S shortcut, then close, then reopen the file, I get a message that the file “has been incorrectly saved“.

Simply put, you must NEVER use the browser's Ctrl-S shortcut.  It does not save the TiddlyWiki Classic file correctly because it is saving the current "runtime" page content, which is dynamically generated at load time from the original TW saved file content.  These are not the same.  You must ALWAYS use the TW-provided "save changes" link from the sidebar.

 

This happens in Firefox (56.0.1) and Chrome (62.0.3202.62).

What am I doing wrong and/or how can I prevent or rectify the duplication of backstage links and areas?

Unfortunately, the current versions of Firefox and Chrome no longer support the "local file I/O" functions that TiddlyWiki Classic makes use of.  If you are using the last revision of TiddlyWiki Classic (v2.8.1), then it includes a version of the "download saver", which DOES still work, by using the brower's "download a file" mechanism to save the file, even if you are working on a locally-stored file.

Unless you are heavily-invested in using TiddlyWiki Classic, then I strongly encourage you to switch to using TiddlyWiki5 (the current release of TiddlyWiki), which ALSO provides the built-in "download saver" process, but is still actively maintained, and has numerous other methods for saving, depending upon your browser and system configuration.

To migrate your content from TWClassic to TW5, first open http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html

Then, drag your current TWClassic file onto the opened TW5 instance.  When the green "drop here" bar appears at the top of the page, drop your file.  You should then be prompted to "import" the tiddlers from the TWClassic file into the TW5 instance.  Press the "import" button, and all of your tiddlers will be added to the open TW5.  You can then use the "save changes" icon in the sidebar (the circled checkmark) to invoke the TW5 "download saver" to get a local copy of the TW5 with all your content tiddlers.

Note that there is significant differences in the syntax of tiddlers between TWClassic and TW5, and you will have to manually convert each tiddler to the new syntax, which can be a tedious (and somewhat error-prone) process.  Also note that TWC does NOT support old TWClassic plugins, none of your installed customizations will work, even after converting your content to TW5 format... but at least your *content* can be "rescued".

Sorry for the bad news.  Hope this helps.

[springer]

After 12 years of using my tiddlyspot-hosted sites regularly, tiddlyspot is suddenly not accepting updates this week (the "uploading changes..." process hangs indefinitely). My files still get served up for reading purposes, but with no new edits.

Do any of you know what's going on?? 

Importantly, I have NOT updated to FF57, and plan to resist for as long as I possibly can, since server-hosted TiddlyWiki (and also HackTheWeb) are integral to my Firefox workflow, every single day (!)...

Any recommendations? Are Tiddlyspot users stranded?

In hopes...

[Mark S.]

Wrong thread ;-)

There's another thread going about tiddlyspot. Apparently it's down, but nothing to do with FF or plugins.

Mark

[springer]

Thanks, Mark. I found that thread afterwards.

[Davïd]

As I understand it, Seamonkey is going to continue to allow "legacy" extensions/addons.

I tried "auto-converting" the Tiddlyfox addon using this tool:

http://addonconverter.fotokraina.com/

While the resulting XPI "installed" no problem, there wasn't a functioning tiddly-save-thing.

However, this might simply be a matter of getting the Tiddlyfox icon to show up on the right bit of Seamonkey's chrome. I'm not sure. But for someone who knows what they're doing (I don't), converting "Tiddlyfox" to "TIddlymonkey" (or whatever!) could be low hanging fruit, and extend the life of this valuable addon.

Any thoughts?

[BJ]

I briefly did a search and could not find a statement saying they plan on not following firefox.

There was mention of switching to 52 ESR for the time being, here

https://blog.seamonkey-project.org/2017/05/02/the-state-of-the-seamonkey-union/

[Conner Phillips]

Does this offer hope of tiddlyfox working again with some preference tweaking?

http://www.morbo.org/2017/11/linux-sandboxing-improvements-in.html

[PMario]

On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 11:33:51 AM UTC+2, Norm Davis wrote:

Firefox and Tiddly have long been great companions, but Firefox is going sideways and the old Firefox Tiddly extension for saving in the new Firefox 57 doesn't work.  Will there be anyone working on a rewrite or a new extension?  Hope so!  Thanks for any helpful info. 

See this thread: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/h0k7z62N79Y

And this repo:https://github.com/pmario/file-backups

have fun!

mario

[dazel...@gmail.com]

I found tiddly-saver here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/9984ShVVbbA and it works quite well.
Only negative point is that it requires a dedikated place to store the TiddlyWiki.

[Platykurtic]

If you plan on using the savetiddlers add-in/extension & wish to use your existing TiddlyWiki central directory (I have a notes directory that I use for all my TiddlyWikis) then I recommend that you use the mklink command to create the tiddlywikilocations directory. By using a hard junction link from the original directory to tiddlywikilocations one can backup your tiddly wikis into Dropbox, Box, Google Drive etc. To establish the junction link run cmd.exe with administrator priviledges & enter the following command in Windows (adjusted for your directories' locations obviously.)

mklink /J "C:\Users\XXXX\Downloads\tiddlywikilocations" "C:\Users\XXXX\Dropbox\TiddlyWiki_Notes"

This will create the tiddlywikilocations directory (for user XXXX) & saves of the various TiddlyWikis will now point back to the TiddlyWiki_Notes directory where (in this example) Dropbox will do it's thing. Of course one should 'open' the TiddlyWiki from the tiddlywikilocations directory (which will in fact open it from the TiddlyWiki_Notes directory.) Once this is set-up everything more or less runs similar to the old TiddlyFox add-in but with the new (and awesome) Firefox v57.

[James A Bernard]

I'm using Waterfox who intend to keep the plugin structure of Firefox while keeping up-to-date with firefox. The tiddlyfox plugin works well.
As i use android a lot, for some reason the tiddlyfox doesn't install inWaterfaox on android.
I am looking for solutions, when I do I'll report back.
But for now, Waterfox fits the bill (at least on Linux and OSX) :)

[BJ]

savetiddlers install on ff56. There are two versions of tiddlyfox - version 2 will not work with android - you need the older version

all the best
BJ

[MarkPea]

Waterford fits the bill on WIndows 10 as well. Tiddlyfox works a treat and saves the TW with no hiccups. The zero faffing solution it seems to me ...

Mark P

[George Jenner]

I have a giant TW Classic I don't want to upgrade, and it was broken yesterday by Firefox upgrading itself (haven't been watching this group for a while, so not warned!).  I've changed to Firefox ESR (version 52) and it works again, and seems that Firefox ESR still gets security upgrades.  Not a long term solution I suppose.

[TonyM]

There are plenty of solutions here, to this changg in browser security, some which are so close to tiddlyfox its amazing, however for my large TWC I use TiddlyDesktop.

I am now moving to TW5 but in a multi-wiki approach. And for this I am using TiddlyServer to access both single file and nodeJS wikis including accross devices on my network.

Regards

Tony

[julien23]

Great to read we have a (too) many temporary solutions left so we'll survive this time again.

But ... let us strip down this discussion to the very basics.

TW was :

• Standalone
  
• Multiplatform
• Futurproof
• Easy to share

Leaving aside workarounds, we lost it all.

So what is the clear long term plan ?

1. Follow browsers evolution, no extensions needed nor about:config tweaks.
   (download saver ?)
   
2. Not follow browsers and embed TW own viewing/editing application.
   (Tiddly Desktop, Server ?)
   

No preference on my own, but at some point I believe we should focus, so what is your thought ?

This said thanks again to developers, and I hope we'll be able to use TW for decades coming !

Regards

Julien

[TonyM]

Julian,

i cant agree, it is still
Standalone or hosted
Multiplatform and device type
Futurproof both internaly and via the community
even Easyer to share

We are just dealing with a transition largely brought about by malware.

The future is rosey.

[PMario]

On Tuesday, November 21, 2017 at 9:44:20 AM UTC+1, julien23 wrote:

Great to read we have a (too) many temporary solutions left so we'll survive this time again.

Why temporary solutions? Most of them are optional solutions. It depends on your usecase. For me it's nice to have a choice.

The problem is. That it's difficult for newbies to decide what they should use. Or what they need. .... We need to  improve this situation. 

 

But ... let us strip down this discussion to the very basics.

TW was :

• Standalone
  
• Multiplatform
• Futurproof
• Easy to share

Leaving aside workarounds, we lost it all.

That's not true. The only thing we lost, is a little bit of convenience. ... TiddlyFox is just a convenience option and it can be replaced with: file-backups and savetiddlers browser AddOns.

TiddlyWiki is still 

 - Standalone. ... 1 file, that can handle many of your notes.

 - Multiplattform ... It runs on any platform, that implemented a decent browser. .. eg: My TV can handle it nicely.

 - Futurproof ... html is still a text format. As long as there are programs, that can read text files, we can extract the information. For me that IS future proof.

 - Easy to share ... send an file per email is easy, and most users can handle it.

 

So what is the clear long term plan ?

1. Follow browsers evolution, no extensions needed nor about:config tweaks.
   (download saver ?)
   

This won't happen anymore. Browser vendors have some valid security concerns and no protest whatever will change their opinion. Especially since they already did give developers a lot of possibilities to handle files. ... Not 100% the same things we had. But ... "close enough" to be useful.

see:

file-backups: https://github.com/pmario/file-backups for firefox...  chrome version is planned.

savetiddlers: https://github.com/buggyj/savetiddlers for firefox and chrome 

for TiddlyFox replacements.

 

2. Not follow browsers and embed TW own viewing/editing application.
   (Tiddly Desktop, Server ?)
   

There are several options. ... BUT they are not "simple" enough. ... Simple = Install ... Click to save !

This said thanks again to developers, and I hope we'll be able to use TW for decades coming !

I'm sure, we will :)

have fun!

mario

[@TiddlyTweeter]

PMario

Spot on.

PMario wrote:
The problem is. That it's difficult for newbies to decide what they should use. Or what they need. .... We need to  improve this situation.

An issue is, that julien23 raised, is "what is THE mode" (or maybe TWO).

I think D.I.Y. users get used to 17 Options Before Breakfast.

IMO its a non-starter for newbies.

Better to have ONE or TWO that are known to work cross-platform that are ADVERTISED. Advertising 16+ is gonna prove a major turn-off for getting new users.

All IMO :-)

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TonyM

The one thing you miss, in your otherwise accurate depiction of the situation, is julian23's slight standing back from the situation. That is VERY valuable to read and absorb IMO.

There IS an issue with complexity now that was there before too but is now VERY amplified.

TonyM wrote:

The future is rosey.

YOUR future and MY future DO look rosey. Functionally TW on saving TW is saving itself from browsers. Very much to the good!

BUT I'm highly sceptical that applies to a newbie hitting TW right now.  Its far more likely they perceive a confusing mess and click away.

Best wishes
Josiah
 

[PMario]

On Tuesday, November 21, 2017 at 1:29:23 PM UTC+1, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

PMario wrote:
The problem is. That it's difficult for newbies to decide what they should use. Or what they need. .... We need to  improve this situation.

An issue is, that julien23 raised, is "what is THE mode" (or maybe TWO).

I do think, the browser AddOn route is still the simplest way we can get. Once the addons are registered and reviewed by FF and Chrome, they are automatically updated, once we provide a new version ...

There's also an other option, which is worth exploring. ... But it may also increase complexity, which is a bad thing. ... So we always have 2 sides of a coin :)

-mario

[vayira]

I'm glad I ignored FF's messages about upgrading. I've been using TW classic for so long I can't remember & I run my life from it. But I'm not sure what to do now.

If I upgrade FF then I'll loose autosave by the looks of things. But will I be able to save at all? I'm using TiddlyWiki (clasic) 2.6.6

My heart always sinks when I see my favourite software has been "improved".

[TonyM]

Vayira;

Try TiddlyDesktop first, but also consider Getting a Portable Firefox ESR V 52

There are a lot of solutions available and looking in this forum will help, however having a version which is a few steps behind even TWC (classic) could be an issue, have a go at upgrading (a copy)

Otherwise post in the forum for help.

Regards

Tony 

[Mark S.]

I always wonder whether I can trust the portable apps site.

Using profiles, a command argument string, and a zip extractor, you can run multiple versions of FF. (See https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1170758) Presumably you could run an old version of FF as long as the operating system supports it (e.g. it doesn't break when 128 bits OS comes out). Old copies are available at https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/releases/. You would need to remember not to do any important browsing or commerce on the browser. And you would want to load it up with all the special extensions it needs before they disappear from Mozilla and/or the net.

-- Mark

[vayira]

Yes. I downloaded the latest version of the classic TW yesterday to check it out. At least that gives the option of download type saving on any browser in case of emergency. When I have time i'll try to import my tiddlers to that. I'm also thinking of trying waterfox, as I'm very used to a number of extensions for FF. Such a waste of time all this :-( I have other things to do.

[PMario]

file-backups: https://github.com/pmario/file-backups for firefox...  chrome version is planned.

savetiddlers: https://github.com/buggyj/savetiddlers for firefox and chrome

Both AddOns support TWclassic.

-m

 

[Alfonso Arciniega]

Mark,

With FF portable you may also use as many profiles as you want:

https://portableapps.com/support/firefox_portable#second_profile

There's also FF ESR portable versions in 17 languages if preferred:

https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/firefox-portable-esr

I am using portable versions out of an USB at my office for many years now, due to being prohibited to install anything on my work PC, with no issues at all.

Cheers,

Alfonso

[Mark S.]

But portable apps isn't mozilla, so there's the possibility of malware having been inserted.

[TonyM]

Mark,

In all my years of using Portable apps (perhaps even 20 years) off and On I have never seen malware. Once you install it running a scan against it should be insightful as many people use it and most virus programs know these files, most of which are the same as the original just packaged to be portable.

ie PortableApps.com is my source.

I have a high level of confidence in portableapps.com

Regards

Tony 

[tony]

Thank you very much Mario

Just wanted to give a shout out for ease of backups with

file-backups: https://github.com/pmario/file-backups for firefox...  chrome version is planned.

for me it restores the old datestamped backup feature in the old TW classic

Tested for a few days and so far so good on low memory Firefox =< v 57.0.1 Quantum

I've been having issues of data loss with encrypted TW5 files using TiddlyFox, TiddlyChrome and TiddlyServer

all of the above saver tools worked fine with unencrypted TW5 files but once I encrypt in TW5 I would occasionally get a save issue where the file size drops down to 0-100 kb and will not open.

now at least there are rolling backups i can revert to!

Best,

tony

[PMario]

On Monday, December 4, 2017 at 4:09:48 AM UTC+1, tony wrote:

Thank you very much Mario

:)

 

for me it restores the old datestamped backup feature in the old TW classic

Almost. ... I did use LessBackupsPlugin for all of my TWclassic's ... But it could be confusing. eg: 1 backup for every hour. So it gave us max 24 files. But one day I did edit something at 15:00 and the other day at 16:00 .. Now we have 2 backups that seem to be 1 hour in between. But in reality it was a day or even days ...

 

Tested for a few days and so far so good on low memory Firefox =< v 57.0.1 Quantum

I've been having issues of data loss with encrypted TW5 files using TiddlyFox, TiddlyChrome and TiddlyServer

Honestly, ... I didn't even test it with encrypted TWs. I'll have to have a closer look.

Thank you for the reminder!

thx
mario

[FrD]

Hi PMario,

I'm using an encrypted TW on dropbox and it saves without problem with your plugin.

FrD

[vayira]

Somehow FFox updated itself to 55.0.2 which seems to be the latest version for linux mint.

TW saving stopped working but I imported to classic version 2.8.1 and tiddly fox started working again which I'm very happy about.

I was expecting to have more problems.

Can I expect to have problems saving again in the near future?

[TonyM]

 

Vayira,

If you keep putting off the inevitable need to upgrade you may very well face problems sooner or later. There is however plenty of options available now, some which have considerable advantages. 

With all due respect Schedule some time in for some maintenance and learning, this is needed every decade or so :)

Of course it can vary by operating system.

I would recommend TiddlyDesktop to handle both classic and TW5 on one computer. TiddlySaver or Marios Saver with backup are great options as well. I use TiddlyServer for access to File and NodeJS versions from the LAN, and other network devices.

I am investigating the beaker browser version but it is a little on the beta side.

Best wishes

Tony

[Birthe C]

I am using Linux Mint too and has been updated to Firefox 57.1
I think you should look into some of the other saving options, do not rely on tiddlyfox, at least not for long. If tiddlyfox works for you right now, you need to avoid updating Firefox.

Birthe

[vayira]

Thanks Tony.

I've downloaded TiddlyDesktop-linux64-v0.0.9 in case it's needed but I'd rather have TW in my main browser because I have a lot of external links in the wiki. I kind of use it instead of bookmarks.

My experiences of upgrades & "improvements" is that 90% of it is bloat & those features which I liked so much are no more so I'm hyper conservative about upgrading. Almost never do I feel my experience is improved.

Where can I get info about TiddlySaver?
I can find savetiddlers - Browser plugin but it looks basic. I keep my TW on dropbox so having to use the download directory isn't very good.

[Birthe C]

I think you will like https://twcloud.github.io/dropbox/# You can read about that and all the opther saving options here https://tiddlywiki.com/#GettingStarted.

Birthe

Den søndag den 24. december 2017 kl. 16.13.01 UTC+1 skrev vayira:

Thanks Tony.

[Vayira]

But dropbox is just a folder on all my hard drives so I don't need a special app or anything to use it. Been doing it for years. The only issue that concerns me is if save stops working in my browser.

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[Birthe C]

I understand, but using Tiddlywiki in the Sky for Dropbox saves your wiki to your dropbox. Other saving options needs you to use a folder under your download folder.

Birthe

[Mark S.]

On windows you can use links (junctions) to trick the browser into thinking your folder is below the downloads folder. I imagine you can do the same with symbolic links on Linux.

-- Mark

[TonyM]

Fyi

No bloat in tw5 in my view,

I maintain my twc in TiddlyDesktop and links open in the default browser.

Rather than upgrade I am moving from a monolithic twc to multiple tw5s with a high degree of intergration. The tw5 wikis run in the latest FF with local host or IP address using TiddlyServer as host and directory to file and node JS implementations with no saving issues.

In tw5 there are many features you needed plugins for in twc now in the core, there is also much more customisation in an empty tw5 than twc with plugins.

Regards
Tony

[Vayira]

The bloat is to do with file size. The TW 2.8.1 with 294 tiddlers that I have built up over years takes up only 585k, but an empty TW 5.1 uses 2M. So I'm not going to migrate my day to day TW at all, but I am experimenting with it for a new project, which I was thinking of putting online, but over 2M makes it very slow to download. It is cool to use, but is a huge file.

Tony

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[PMario]

On Tuesday, January 2, 2018 at 5:44:07 PM UTC+1, vayira wrote:

The bloat is to do with file size. The TW 2.8.1 with 294 tiddlers that I have built up over years takes up only 585k, but an empty TW 5.1 uses 2M. So I'm not going to migrate my day to day TW at all, but I am experimenting with it for a new project, which I was thinking of putting online, but over 2M makes it very slow to download. It is cool to use, but is a huge file.

If you use a decent hosting service, the servers will compress the file, befor sending it over the wire.

So empty.htm will be about 2MByte plain text, but 300k sent over the net. ...

Compared to 1 image of a modern smartphone, which has about 4 MByte, TW is nothing, and JPEGs can't be compressed ....

just my 2 cents
mario

[TonyM]

Fyi

My old twc has 8000 Tiddlers at 17mb and I expect tw5 to perform better. True this is local access single file only without auto save.

Tony

[Mark S.]

It's unfortunately true that developers often think in terms of state of the art technology.  It would be interesting to know what features caused the 4x increase in the core, despite dropping support for Jquery.

-- Mark

On Tuesday, January 2, 2018 at 8:44:07 AM UTC-8, vayira wrote:

The bloat is to do with file size. The TW 2.8.1 with 294 tiddlers that I have built up over years takes up only 585k, but an empty TW 5.1 uses 2M. So I'm not going to migrate my day to day TW at all, but I am experimenting with it for a new project, which I was thinking of putting online, but over 2M makes it very slow to download. It is cool to use, but is a huge file.

On 25 December 2017 at 00:01, TonyM <anthony...@gmail.com> wrote:

Fyi

No bloat in tw5 in my view,

I maintain my twc in TiddlyDesktop and links open in the default browser.

Rather than upgrade I am moving from a monolithic twc to multiple tw5s with a high degree of intergration. The tw5 wikis run in the latest FF with local host or IP address using TiddlyServer as host and directory to file and node JS implementations with no saving issues.

In tw5 there are many features you needed plugins for in twc now in the core, there is also much more customisation in an empty tw5 than twc with plugins.

Regards

Tony

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[PMario]

On Wednesday, January 3, 2018 at 6:49:34 AM UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:

  It would be interesting to know what features caused the 4x increase in the core, despite dropping support for Jquery.

Basically we traded size for convenience and configurability.

With TWclassic, you have 5 main tiddlers, that define the whole UI. PageTemplate, ViewTemplate,  EditTemplate and 2 bigger StyleSheet tiddlers.

Whenever you want to change something there, you'll need to overwrite the core tiddlers.

 - This makes updating much more complicated, than today.

 - If you make a small mistake, you'll completely mess up your UI, to a degree, where it is unusable.

TW5 has configuration parameters, for most of the changes, that where common in TWc. eg: most button visibilities are configurable now. ControlPanel alone has ~30 pages. 

emptyTW5.html has:

 - 227 config tiddlers, that are active by default.

 - 10+ ViewTemplate related tiddlers

 - 12+ EditTemplate related tiddlers

 - 9+ PageTemplate related tiddlers

 - 1000+ $:/language/ related tiddlers. Those where hardcoded in TWc and made translations hard and error prone

So it's basically convenience UI based functions, which increase empty.html size.

IMO we could squeeze out about 50% of the size, without loosing end-user conveninece but at the cost of maintainability. This gives us ~ 1MByte. ... The win, will be lost, when a user includes the 1st jpg-image, to customize the TW background.

So in the end we just lost maintainablility ... and IMO that's not worth it!

-------------------

jQuery was initially needed, to level out browser incompatibilities. It's success showed all browser vendors, what's really important for developers, and how and where to focus on "web" / browser improvements. ... Implementing the new specification and development patterns needed time. But now most of the stuff,  that jQuery invented, is part of current web standards, which makes jQuery itself "kind of" obsolete. ...

have fun!
mario

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mark

On 3 Jan 2018, at 05:49, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

It's unfortunately true that developers often think in terms of state of the art technology.

That’s pretty harsh. I use a 2013 laptop every day, and my home computer is a 2010 Mac Mini.

It would be interesting to know what features caused the 4x increase in the core, despite dropping support for Jquery.

Really? You don’t see any material improvements between TWC and TW5?

Best wishes

Jeremy.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Tony

> Really? You don’t see any material improvements between TWC and TW5?

Sorry if my comment was in turn a little harsh; my perspective is a little different...

I love TWC, and I love that the design of the core is just the minimal dom mangling necessary to provide the desired user experience for navigation. That's pretty much all there is, and any non-trivial extensions/customisations generally require using plugins. But it's a wildly successful design, particularly because it's been easy for other developers to understand. The wonder of TWC is its longevity and utility.

TW5, in contrast, is an attempt to create a general purpose "rendering engine" that spans narrative prose and user interface declarations, allowing the entire user interface to be customised as easily as writing wikitext. The evidence for its success is in the number of requests here on the group that we can answer without recourse to plugins. There's no doubt that the TW5 core is a richer set of primitives than TWC. The wonder of TW5 is that it is a practical solution, as well as an internally satisfying one.

No doubt there are an infinite number of ways to implement something like TiddlyWiki, but TWC and TW5 seem to me to embody two particularly interesting "local maxima": interconnected of trade-offs between competing design approaches.

Best wishes

Jeremy

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[Boaz Nash]

Just found this thread and thought I'd try to get involved with TiddlyWiki again.  This issue with TiddlyFox really killed me with TiddlyWiki.  I still use Firefox as my default browser, so its annoying to have to switch to a different browser just for TW.  Also, I have TW files all over the place, named due to their subject and in many different folders.  So far, I have not been able to relocate these to a single location, and I don't really want to do that.  I also have some simple HTML files that link to my TW files in their present locations.  In order to move my TW files, I'd have to rewrite the links for all these HTML files.
I invested heavily in the approach allowed by TiddlyFox, and now it doesn't work anymore.  Its been almost a year, and I still try to use TW, but its not convenient. 
When I really want to edit my TiddlyWiki files, I use TiddlyDesktop, but it feels a lot less convenient than using it from FireFox. 
I will try to make another attempt to find a new approach.  I guess it will involve throwing away a lot of files or some kind of major reorganization.
Thanks for suggestions.  I don't mean to just gripe.  I got a lot of benefit out of TiddlyWiki.  But for the last year it hasn't worked for me anymore.

On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 3:33:51 AM UTC-6, Norm Davis wrote:

Firefox and Tiddly have long been great companions, but Firefox is going sideways and the old Firefox Tiddly extension for saving in the new Firefox 57 doesn't work.  Will there be anyone working on a rewrite or a new extension?  Hope so!  Thanks for any helpful info. 

[Mark S.]

There are multiple approaches that will allow you to keep your existing TW's and pathing IF your paths are relative, you're running  Windows or Linux. Nothing is as convenient to set up as TiddlyFox, but it is doable.

You can use tiddlyserver. ts serves up most files and uses relative paths.

You can use TiddlyBackup and links (Symbolic in Linux, Junctions in Windows). You set up a sub-directory of your download directory, put links in it that connect to your original location. This tricks the browser into thinking your paths are below the download directory.

-- Mark

[Boaz Nash]

Thanks for the suggestions, Mark.  I use OSX on a Mac.  I have most of my TW files in my MyDocs folder and various sub-folders in there.
I tried tiddlyserver a while back and briefly got it to work.  I can't remember why I stopped using it.  Something about it conflicted with my usual workflow.
I'll look into TiddlyBackup.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

This thread is a marker for what users need. It has had over FOUR THOUSAND views!

Mark S. gave good solutions. There are others. IMO timimi is good for several platforms, including OSX, https://github.com/ibnishak/Timimi.

It saves in the seamless way TiddlyFox did.

Josiah

[Boaz Nash]

Thanks Josiah, I will see if I can install Timimi!

[TonyM]

Boaz,

Timimi is Great, Even better than tiddlyfox because you do not need to click on the cat.

We have well and truly passed the "FireFox apocalypse" and it spawned substantial innovation. The save and serve tiddlywiki solutions are maturing and its slowly becoming easier to choose between options. I recommend you look at TiddlyServer as once you set the settings.json you can browse TiddlyWikis files and folder installs in the browser, and  Bob (Single Executable) for multi-access multi-user folder based wikis.

Regards

Tony

[Boaz Nash]

Thanks Tony.  It looks good.  But so far I wasn't able to get Timimi to work on OSX.

It looks like it is installed, and I can press the "check" symbol to save, and it says "wiki saved", but the file itself is not saved.

[Mark S.]

Looking over the docs, I don't see that it mentions Python. I'm pretty sure you need Python installed in order for Timimi to work. Is python on your Mac system?

Good luck!

-- Mark

[Boaz Nash]

Hmm, yes, I do have python installed, but of course it may not be installed correctly, or maybe I need to set some environment variables differently...
Thanks for the tip.
Boaz

[Víctor Sarmiento]

It seems I am quite late, but perhaps my solution could be useful for anyone yet

I use the latest version of firefox for the web and I use a portable firefox (43.0.1) disconected from internet to build my tiddlywikis

Víctor

[Julio Peña]

Hello there,

I use Waterfox (offshoot of Firefox) which still supports the Tiddlyfox extension.

Regards,

Julio

[VÍCTOR]

Thank you Julio, I'm exploring now Beaker Browse, it seems it works very well

Victor

[Julio Peña]

Ah, Victor, glad to hear!

Julio

[TonyM]

I just want to add, the apocalypse is over a long time ago

Timimi works as well as TiddlyFox, if not better, on the latest firefox, 

Regards

Tony

[Mark S.]

I can understand that fans of FF want to continue using FF. But if you're on a desktop, and having to use Beaker, Waterfox, or an old version of FF, why not just use TiddlyDesktop ?

[Vayira]

Because TiddlyDesktop is not a browser and the having TW in a browser tab is so useful. 

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[Mark S.]

On Saturday, March 21, 2020 at 9:19:33 AM UTC-7, vayira wrote:

Because TiddlyDesktop is not a browser and the having TW in a browser tab is so useful. 

How so? Sure, it it's in the same browser that you do all your regular browsing in. But if you need a special browser, then why not use TiddlyDesktop?

[TonyM]

Mark

I think people may be clining onto extensions within Firefox no longer available since around v57, so tiddlydesktop does not have these extensions, however at least some of the former extensions have being re released in firefox.

I sympathise with ff and its extensions but I no longer resort to pre v 57. This is my current usage.

Everyday I use ff timimi, tiddlydesktop, tiddlyserver and bobexe according to the particular need. Typically I use chrome to access single function wikis at a network address including SharePoint hosted.

Regards
Tony

[Alex S. Garcia]

I just downloaded TiddlyDesktop and gave it a shot. It's interesting. Could
help as a temporary workaround, though I can't see myself using this
indefinitely. It's nowhere near as convenient as editing it in my browser. I
might have to drop using TW entirely, though not sure yet what I'd replace it
with :(

BTW, I'm noticing that some stuff doesn't work in TiddlyDesktop. Like clicking
on the "Settings", "Help" and "Backstage" buttons at the top. I'm using
v0.0.13 for linux.



Alex.

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[TonyM]

Alex,

Why would you say "I might have to drop using TW entirely"?

The title and leading posts are out of date and no longer relevant. Almost 3 years OLD

I like TiddlyDesktop because I can launch programs and windows explorer etc.. in it, I am sure you may be able to launch shell scripts and more. It has its place but if you are browser junkie what problem do you have?

Regards

Tony

[Alex S. Garcia]

> Why would you say "I might have to drop using TW entirely"?

Because if I can't save changes to TW, then TW becomes useless.

> *The title and leading posts are out of date and no longer relevant. Almost
> 3 years OLD*
> [...]

> but if you are browser junkie what problem do you have?

To your point, I am indeed using an even more recent version of Firefox
(68.4.1esr) but that doesn't make the issue any less relevant. Plugin is still
broken and I still can't save changes.



Alex.

[PMario]

On Sunday, March 22, 2020 at 5:05:41 PM UTC+1, Alex S. Garcia wrote:

To your point, I am indeed using an even more recent version of Firefox
(68.4.1esr) but that doesn't make the issue any less relevant. Plugin is still
broken and I still can't save changes.

You can use the file-backups AddOn with FireFox, which will allow you to save TWs to the browser "downloads" directory _and_ their subfolders.

The plugin should work with: 68.4.1. ESR  ...

The "downloads folder" limitation was introduced by all browser vendors, due to security concerns for "direct save" to other locations. ...

At the moment I'm investigating a different possibility using the Cliqz browser, which is based on FireFox. It allows to use a "future" but experimental API, which should allow us, to use the whole "directory space" again. ... After a confirmation dialogue.

The AddOn can be found at: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/file-backups/  

The info contains a link to its homepage

have fun!

mario

[TonyM]

Alex,

With respect I think you only have the problem because you possibly have not explored all the currently available solutions. Don't try and use obsolete plugins.

There are arguably too many ways to save your tiddlywiki now. 

Please start a new thread and explain what you want to do, rather than tell us about what is not working when you are using possibly obsolete solutions. TiddlyFox died with FF 57+ Timimi is the replacement on Windows, others exist for Linux or specific browsers. Personally I also host mine on an apache server with tw-receiver, which can be done on linux. But node may be your best bet

TiddlyDesktop apparently has a way to share the wikis at local host so you can access them with iny browser

Node, bob/bob,exe all allow you to edit and save as to the various saver solutions around.

Look at TiddlyServer https://arlen22.github.io/tiddlyserver/

Regards

Tony

[Birthe C]

Alex,

Please do not give up before trying Timimi. Look here for the extra step needed https://ibnishak.github.io/Timimi/#Installing%20Timimi

Birthe

[Vayira]

Does timimi work with TW classic or only TW5? 

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[Birthe C]

It should work, you will find it listed https://classic.tiddlywiki.com/#%5B%5BSetting%20up%20saving%5D%5D

Birthe

[Yakov]

Hi everybody,

considering TiddlyWiki Classic:

• yes, Timimi works with it in modern FireFox (with several minor issues, but generally it works even better than TiddlyFox)
• yes, I and Mark Kerrigan recently put most of the saving methods together at https://classic.tiddlywiki.com/#%5B%5BSetting%20up%20saving%5D%5D . In the future that one will probably be simplified (for instance, once I adapt Timimi to Chrome there probably will be no much need in other extensions, except for cases of strict security limitations; yet the richer ecosystem is, the better)
• old FireFox (pre 54) with TiddlyFox is also an option, it's just somewhat outdated, so is not included into the list
  
• if you need more assistance, I invite you to the https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/tiddlywikiclassic group
• I haven't tested Beaker Browse, so if anybody shares experience of using it with TWC (especially in the TWC group), I'll be thankful
  

Best regards,

Yakov.

[Alex S. Garcia]

> - yes, Timimi works with it in modern FireFox (with several minor

> issues, but generally it works even better than TiddlyFox)

I just tried Timimi. Though installation seemed to work (got the "Hello there
/ Have a great day" message) I still get an error message when I try to save
changes to a TW file.

I removed all other TW related plugins to make sure there weren't any
conflicts, but no luck.

Maybe I'm doing this wrong though... how do you save? I'm trying to use the
usual "save changes" links under Admin Tools, should I use something else?

Oh and Yakov, BTW, I tried to post about my saving issues on the TWC list back
in December, but my mail did not go through because the list is set up as a
forum rather than a mailing-list.

[Vayira]

I'm experimenting with MainTiddlyServer as an option as it will never depend on browsers & extensions etc and works locally and remotely with a single 70k file. https://yakovl.github.io/MainTiddlyServer/index.html 

It works like a dream on my remote server. On my local server I got 2 kinds of error messages, but because I understand php I was able to fix them. They didn't affect functionality however. 

To run it locally you need php installed. I've opted for installing php alone & using its internal server so that I don't need to run apache. 

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[TonyM]

To be clear,

"save changes" links under Admin Tools must be within TiddlyWiki not Browser menus!

Regards

Tony

[Alex S. Garcia]

> "save changes" links under Admin Tools must be within TiddlyWiki not
> Browser menus!

Browser menus? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Admin Tools is in the right-side menu within TiddlyWiki.

[TonyM]

Alex,

That's good, I just know that has being the mistake of many. 

Please consider starting a new thread on this problem because it is clearly and exception to the old TiddlyFox problems. 

You may find it useful if you have not already to start with a fresh tiddlywiki and see if you can experience the almost seamless use of Timimi, or move to one of a number of node solutions, or TW-Reciever on php. Once you have experienced the "Modern" you will have a better understanding and it will be easier to address a specific wiki failing to save.

Portableapps.com has a portable firefox if the problem could be in your install of firefox.

Regards

Tony

[Vayira]

Hi Tony I just looked for TW-Reciever and found it on github. It doesn't say there if it will work with TW classic. Do you know? 

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[Yakov]

Hi Alex,

I just tried Timimi. Though installation seemed to work (got the "Hello there
/ Have a great day" message) I still get an error message when I try to save
changes to a TW file.

I removed all other TW related plugins to make sure there weren't any
conflicts, but no luck.

Maybe I'm doing this wrong though... how do you save? I'm trying to use the
usual "save changes" links under Admin Tools, should I use something else?

Hm, have you installed both the browser extension and the native app? The extension page tells to check out installation details in the docs but I guess one may miss the main point (the necessity to install an app besides the extension) since they have to find the installation guide and follow the additional step from there (download the installer for their paltform from releases and launch it). Please let me know if that helps; I'll probably propose some changes to improve this aspect anyway.

Oh and Yakov, BTW, I tried to post about my saving issues on the TWC list back
in December, but my mail did not go through because the list is set up as a
forum rather than a mailing-list.

 
Oh, sorry to hear that. I'm not quite sure what's the difference (I always thought that Google Groups are both), but if I can help you somehow, let me know. (have you tried to use it as a forum? is that of very poor user experience for you for some reason?)

Best regards,
Yakov.