Best approach for multiple wikis

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Victor Dorneanu

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Dec 2, 2019, 5:39:56 AM12/2/19
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Hi everyone,

what I want to achieve is to have multiple wikis for each "area" of knowledge. Let's say:

  • coding
  • notes (from books, articles etc.)
  • cooking recipes
  • etc.

I like to manage my tiddlers at a single place, that means: Have everything inside a big (git) repository. However, when I want to share/publish my content I'd like to have multiple files for each knowledge area:

  • coding.html (for coding)
    • everything that is tagged with "coding" or has "coding" as a parent tag
  • notes.html (for notes)
    • everything that is tagged with "notes" or has "notes" as a parent tag
  • and so forth

For every published wiki I'd like to also have a different welcome page and perhaps different style (CSS) customizations.

I came across this Github issue thread where Tobi Beer (awesome work BTW!) presented some dirty implementation of a "monolithic" based multiple wiki approach. Without going into details of current discussion regarding that topic: What would be the most easiest way to achieve what I've described before?

Thanks in advance.


Greetings,
Victor

Pit.W.

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Dec 2, 2019, 5:09:56 PM12/2/19
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Hi victor,

good question! I am permanently wrestling with the same issue - with very limited success!

What I do at the moment is:

  1.  I have a plethoria of wikis, standalone files on my USB
    1. In each one I have the names of editors and the journal tag customised
  2. I have a few wikis on node.js
  3. On all of them I have the Bundles-plugin, and on all of them I have a fixed set of standardised filter rules (bundles), they channel the migration of tiddler swarms;
  4. Then I export stuff from each standalone wiki and throw it into the appropriate node.js wiki
    1. there I can "bundle" it according to 1.1 above
    2. But : could there be a Super-wiki, which could look into all the other node.js folder? dunno - I am too dumb

Not perfect ? Oh yes, very imperfect!

Cumbersome? Yes!

Improvement? Please, somebody find one!

Any alternative from the big companies (SoftTyny, ...et al)? ... with a 300.000+ cost-free developer community, consultancy and advisory force, off-line, cloud-free, future-proof, MIT-crypto and whatnot...? I didnt find any in 40 years

... TW it is...

Pit.W

Am 02.12.2019 um 11:39 schrieb Victor Dorneanu:
Hi everyone,

what I want to achieve is to have multiple wikis for each "area" of knowledge. Let's say:

  • coding
  • notes (from books, articles etc.)
  • cooking recipes
  • etc.

I like to manage my tiddlers at a single place, that means: Have everything inside a big (git) repository. However, when I want to share/publish my content I'd like to have multiple files for each knowledge area:

  • coding.html (for coding)
    • everything that is tagged with "coding" or has coding as a parent tag
  • notes.html (for notes)
    • everything that is tagged with "notes" or has coding as a parent tag
  • and so forth

For every published wiki I'd like to also have a different welcome page and perhaps different style (CSS) customizations.

I came across this Github issue thread where Tobi Beer (awesome work BTW!) presented some dirty implementation of a "monolithic" based multiple wiki approach. Without going into details of current discussion regarding that topic: What would be the most easiest way to achieve what I've described before?

Thanks in advance.


Greetings,
Victor

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TonyM

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Dec 2, 2019, 5:46:08 PM12/2/19
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Victor,

This is a Big Question, with perhaps multiple answers, each of which could be quite involved, so I am not surprise you have not had much feedback.

I can't help you with GitHub so much But JEDS's Bob solution can handle wikis and subwikis so if you could make the folders below part of a repository, you may be approaching what you are asking for. 

Personally I have multiple single file wikis for many subject areas but I have some select reference wikis and what I call a core wiki where I place a common directory and more. I have a little registration system to register a new wiki and submit it to the directory. This I can drag and drop to the core (displayed as an Iframe). I also create bundles for any reusable content, and try and make everything reusable.

My Point, Whilst there are technologies to help multiple Tiddlywiki's are best handled with the development of your own standards and practices, built on top of tiddlywiki.
 
Regards
Tony

TiddlyTweeter

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Dec 3, 2019, 6:26:32 AM12/3/19
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Ciao Victor

As far as I understand GitHub it can be used (with various sub-tools) to create workflows of complexity & sophistication.

I don't have the knowledge to advise on particulars. 

But I think this may be more a question for asking on GitHub itself?

Best wishes
TT

Victor Dorneanu

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Dec 3, 2019, 9:02:27 AM12/3/19
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Hi TT,

it's not really related to Github. I just use to store/backup my tiddlers. The backend storage is actually quite irrelevant. I just need some "best practices" / workflows that individuals have established over time in order to manage multiple wikis.

Cheers,
Victor

Victor Dorneanu

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Dec 3, 2019, 9:14:13 AM12/3/19
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Hi Pit,

thanks for your input! I think I'll definitely have a look at the bundles plugin since I do have tiddlers that need to be available in each wiki.

I've also found protw/twfarm which seems to do exactly want I want. Here you can actually see the tiddlywiki commands used to build different files. Maybe that's a good point where to start from.

Maybe for every wiki I need some configs:

  • $:/config/wiki_coding
  • $:/config/wiki_notes
  • ...
In each tiddler I'd then store wiki specific fields:
  • title: Wiki about Coding
  • tiddlers-filter: [tag[Coding]]
  • logo: <some logo>
  • css: $:/styles/wiki_coding
  • ...

And then I need to define some filters for the "tiddlywiki build" command to use the information inside each config file. That's the idea.. I didn't implement it yet.

I hoped you guys might have some better solutions.

Cheers,
Victor
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TiddlyTweeter

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Dec 3, 2019, 9:33:38 AM12/3/19
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Ciao Victor

Okay. Focus here is on single file TWs. (If you were using Bob.EXE it would allow a lot more flex)

There is NO standard method. There are several different issues involved that make it more complex than it might first look.

I'd say the simplest STEADY METHOD was ASSERTION . In other words you work at a logical structure of folders to house individual wiki and stick to it. AND have ONE central wiki that has links to them. Done.

The remaining issue is "emergence"--meaning it is sometimes likely you make a wiki that doesn't fit that schema. 
The easiest way to deal with that is to use an external probe. Powershell tools can do that easily on all major desktop platforms and create a "manifest of wiki" for import to "central".

That was TonyM's point, I think.

The whole thing is simply, at the moment, only about "best-bets".

TT

TiddlyTweeter

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Dec 3, 2019, 9:39:10 AM12/3/19
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Victor Dorneanu wrote:
Hi Pit,
thanks for your input! I think I'll definitely have a look at the bundles plugin since I do have tiddlers that need to be available in each wiki. 

PMario's Bundler Plugin is definitely one of the best import/export tools we have. The only difficulty with it is good usage of it REQUIRES that on export you name it in such a way that if you had dozens of them you'd know what they are for.

Not sure you will be clear what I mean yet? :-) When you have over a dozen of them you will! :-)

Best wishes
TT 

TiddlyTweeter

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Dec 3, 2019, 11:55:57 AM12/3/19
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WHY is this thread pinned?

It is just a normal question.

Eric Shulman

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Dec 3, 2019, 12:09:22 PM12/3/19
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On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 8:55:57 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
WHY is this thread pinned?
It is just a normal question.

The "display at top" function (aka, "pinning") should only be used for important group announcements and the occasional thread that has a lot of potential impact for the majority of the TW community (e.g., the discussion about file saving)

I've noticed that someone keeps pinning all kinds of posts that don't seem to meet the above criteria.  In general, I'll leave them pinned for a day... maybe two... and then un-pin them so they show up as normal, date-ordered posts.

Of course, if there's a good reason for all the pinned posts, then that's OK.  I'd just like to know what it is.

-e







Mohammad

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Dec 3, 2019, 12:56:51 PM12/3/19
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Hi Eric,

 I agree some times posts are pinned where they seem have not such potential!
 So, I am agree with what you said! but who decide a post has potential impact to keep it pining at the top?
 
--Mohammad

Mark S.

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Dec 3, 2019, 1:07:29 PM12/3/19
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It's likely that whoever is "Displaying at top" or "Marking as complete" thinks they're only affecting their own presentation. That would be the logical way for things to work.

On a side note, groups.io appears to have everything we would want in a group.

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 8:55:57 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Arlen Beiler

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Dec 3, 2019, 3:00:43 PM12/3/19
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Just thought I'd take a minute to chime in here. I made TiddlyServer to solve my own problem of Massive Multi-file Online wikis. It serves the folders you specify in a sort of tree allowing them to be grouped together and easily navigated with the built-in directory index (even the virtual directories or "groups"). When a data folder is accessed, TiddlyServer automatically fires up a node instance of the TiddlyWiki listen command and mounts it at that path, meaning it forwards all requests to the data folder Node server instance. This makes it work identical to the TiddlyWiki listen command for most normal uses of the listen command, except you can access multiple data folders on the same server. Single file wikis (TW 5.1.15 and newer) have a saver already built into them which TiddlyServer uses to save single file wikis. Single file wikis can be backed up automatically on every save, but data folders are on their own by design. I recommend using Git or Dropbox for that. 

There are a bunch of advanced options and even authentication, but the basics are enough for most people.

It's pretty simple to use but I often notice people having trouble getting it installed, so I thought I'd throw in some install instructions I wrote some time ago. 

It's fine to just use master (well, aka v2.1 right now) right now: https://github.com/Arlen22/TiddlyServer -- Click the green "Clone or Download" button then select your preferred download method. Cloning the repo is an easy way to get updates but downloading is fine too. 

Extract it to an empty folder so you don't risk merging with an existing folder. Once you extract it you can move it wherever you want it to be. 


Go to NodeJS.org and download the LTS version of Node, which currently is 10.x, and install it on the computer you will be running TiddlyServer on. It's pretty straightforward, and the default options should work fine. 

You don't actually need to install the whole thing, you can also just download a zip file and extract node.exe into the TiddlyServer folder to make a portable install. Since you're working with IIS I'm sure you have enough computer experience know what I'm talking about, but if I'm not making myself clear, just install NodeJS like I described above. 

Now, here's the part that most people find tricky. Copy example-settings-quick.json and name it settings.json. That's the simplest setup. You can change the tree property to change what folders get served, but all html files and data folders inside it should just work out of the box. 

The entire documentation for the settings.json file is at https://arlen22.github.io/tiddlyserver/docs/serverconfig.html and the tree property is the first item on the page. Here's a really simple example to get you started. 

"tree": {
"myfolder": "../personal",
"workstuff": "../work",
"user": "~/Desktop/random",
"projects_group": {
"tiddlyserver": "~/Desktop/Github/TiddlyServer",
"material-theme": "~/Dropbox/Material Theme"
}
}


And that's all there is to it. Once you have your settings.json file setup, just run "node server.js" to start the server. TiddlyServer expects to find the settings.json file in the same directory (which is where I have mine, which is why it's in .gitignore!).

I made TiddlyServer simple because I want it to be simple for me to use every day :) 

Hope that helps 

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Mohammad

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Dec 3, 2019, 3:36:30 PM12/3/19
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Arlen,
 I followed all these instructions and everything works fine! but then
what should be in folders for example personal folder!
It does not seem TiddlyServer creates a wiki there

--Mohammad

Arlen Beiler

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Dec 3, 2019, 3:40:29 PM12/3/19
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You can put your single file wikis, data folders, and other files in there. Then you open your browser and navigate to the particular folder or item you want. 

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:36 PM Mohammad <mohammad...@gmail.com> wrote:
Arlen,
 I followed all these instruction and everything work well! but then
what should be in folders for example personal folder!
It does not seem TiddlyServer create a wiki there

--Mohammad
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Mohammad

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Dec 3, 2019, 3:54:48 PM12/3/19
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Thanks Arlen

1. In the tutorial there is no description about what this so please add this to tutorial
2. I add a data folder and it works
3. I also put a single file wiki in personal but on save it raises an error: XMLHttpRequest Error 500


--Mohammad

Mohammad

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Dec 3, 2019, 4:00:29 PM12/3/19
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Arlen, I understood empty folder on click open a new page and lets upload a single wiki file or create data folder
Than you I can run the wiki in data folder but still unsuccessful on single wiki!

These steps are not explained in tutorial nor in quick startup!

Just feedback as a newbie!

--Mohammad

On Wednesday, December 4, 2019 at 12:10:29 AM UTC+3:30, Arlen Beiler wrote:
You can put your single file wikis, data folders, and other files in there. Then you open your browser and navigate to the particular folder or item you want. 

Mohammad

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Dec 3, 2019, 4:04:21 PM12/3/19
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Arlen, The error 500 was because there was no ../backups folder!
I did not see this in tutorial nor quick startup!

Many thanks now I have runing TiddlyServer 2.1 on Windows 10 + Node.js 12.3


Note:
 The LTS version of Node.js is 12.13.1

Cheers
Mohammad

On Wednesday, December 4, 2019 at 12:10:29 AM UTC+3:30, Arlen Beiler wrote:
You can put your single file wikis, data folders, and other files in there. Then you open your browser and navigate to the particular folder or item you want. 

Mohammad

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Dec 3, 2019, 5:08:08 PM12/3/19
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Arlen,
 Is it possible to use 5.1.22p or other version of TW instead of the preconfigured 5.21?

--Mohammad

Arlen Beiler

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Dec 3, 2019, 5:23:33 PM12/3/19
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You can set "_datafoldertarget": "../some/path" in settings.json to any TiddlyWiki folder you want. Relative paths are relative to the settings.json file. You can see it in the example in https://arlen22.github.io/tiddlyserver/docs/serverconfig.html although I don't mention it anywhere on that page. Thank you for your feedback. I'll try to update my docs to make it more clear.

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Mohammad

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Dec 3, 2019, 6:11:44 PM12/3/19
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Many thanks Arlen!

TiddlyServer is really amazing and lets work with multiple wiki out of the box!
I may send further comments later after I evaluate it with some experiment!

Yes, other people should read documents an send their feedback how they get things working by following the tutorial!
My feedback was just what I encountered by reading tutorial here https://arlen22.github.io/tiddlyserver/docs/serverconfig.html and
your description in above post.

Just a minor comment:
 I think like TiddlyDesktop it is possible to customize and beatify the landing page and  folder pages of TiddlyServer. May be you can use Tiddlywiki itself for this purpose!

--Mohammad

On Wednesday, December 4, 2019 at 1:53:33 AM UTC+3:30, Arlen Beiler wrote:
You can set "_datafoldertarget": "../some/path" in settings.json to any TiddlyWiki folder you want. Relative paths are relative to the settings.json file. You can see it in the example in https://arlen22.github.io/tiddlyserver/docs/serverconfig.html although I don't mention it anywhere on that page. Thank you for your feedback. I'll try to update my docs to make it more clear.

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 5:08 PM Mohammad <mohamma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Arlen,
 Is it possible to use 5.1.22p or other version of TW instead of the preconfigured 5.21?

--Mohammad

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TonyM

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Dec 3, 2019, 6:25:58 PM12/3/19
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On the beautification process, of TiddlyServer

Could there be a html template that can be crafted as an alternative?

One could then publish host information, Links to key resources, guidelines of use etc... on arriving at the server!

Regards
Tony

David Gifford

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Dec 3, 2019, 9:45:06 PM12/3/19
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One thing I do to make it easier: I make the permalink button visible in the view toolbar so I can grab a tiddler's permalink quickly and paste it in links to the file#tiddler in other files. Since some of the files are then uploaded for others, the button also serves as a "share on social media" button. You can see it on a Spanish file I am working on here http://giffmex.org/wiki/nt1.html

Mark S.

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Dec 3, 2019, 11:53:48 PM12/3/19
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I get "changed on server" messages regularly.  Often on the second time I attempt to save. Talking single files.
This didn't happen with the old (1.??) version. It's made it pretty hard to use, since every time it happens I
have to do a "rescue" of the changed tiddlers. If it just ignored the non-existent changes on disk and saved
it would be fine. Output below.

412 ifmatch "0-5124547-1575414313000"
412 etag "0-5124547-1575434388000"
412 caused by difference in modified
[2019-12-03T20:46:07.125-0800] PUT     127.0.0.1       412 127.0.0.1 /TW2014/T
o.html                                           42.922 ms - -

Thanks!

TonyM

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Dec 4, 2019, 12:10:40 AM12/4/19
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Mark

I think the issue is if you return to a wiki in a tab after a while, even a browser or pc reboot to a wiki that has not being reloaded before you made changes causes this.

Perhaps there is a fix, but an emergency export changes only, reload, import changes in the work around.

Eventualy I will publish a set of custom save buttons for this situation.

Tony

Mark S.

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Dec 4, 2019, 12:36:26 AM12/4/19
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It only happens with TiddlyServer -- not BobSaver or file-backups. Often I don't even leave the tab.  It's falsely detecting a change on the disk. But I don't understand why it's even checking for a change. Perhaps it was/is useful with data folders.

Victor Dorneanu

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Dec 4, 2019, 4:44:04 AM12/4/19
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Wow! This is (almost) exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for sharing and for your efforts bringing down your ideas and concepts to code.

I'll definitely give it a try.

Cheers,
Victor
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Victor Dorneanu

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Dec 4, 2019, 4:45:26 AM12/4/19
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Buenos dias David,

that "social media share" button is also a nice hint.

BR,
Victor

Arlen Beiler

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Dec 4, 2019, 10:19:38 AM12/4/19
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In this particular case, the file on disk is 6 hours newer than the copy the browser downloaded. I have not used this feature of TiddlyServer much so perhaps I should take a look at it again, but nothing changed since I made it that I know of. I did run into a scenario where the etag was changing by a second or two, so I added the putsaver.etagAge option to set the window within which to ignore it. I will check the code to make sure everything looks good on my end. What version of TiddlyWiki is the file?

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Mark S.

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Dec 4, 2019, 11:07:26 AM12/4/19
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Unless my computer has discovered time travel, there is no way the file on disk is 6 hours newer.

I load.
I save once.
I do things in the TW
I save again ... and get the error.

So unless the file was saved with a timestamp 6 hours in the future, it should be several minutes *older* than the browser version at the time of the save.

I'm using 5.1.21

I'm wondering why it checks the time at all. Unless I do something crazy like manually copy a different version to the directory, the browser version should be "king".

Perhaps checking the date slows things down. It's noticeably slower saving a single-file wiki with TS than with BobSaver or file-backups.

Thanks!
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Arlen Beiler

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Dec 5, 2019, 3:55:52 PM12/5/19
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You can disable etag checking completely if you want. If you can include some more examples from the log file that would be great as well. 

The relevant log file info here shows the two values, ifmatch being the browser copy. The last number is the modified timestamp in milliseconds, which as you can see in this case are 6 hours apart. If you google "epoch converter" you can paste that into "1970 Epoch in Milliseconds" converter to get the date. The third line (and similar lines in more serious scenarios) are debug lines where TiddlyServer points out which parts are different and caused the etag to fail. 

412 ifmatch "0-5124547-1575414313000"
412 etag "0-5124547-1575434388000"
412 caused by difference in modified
[2019-12-03T20:46:07.125-0800] PUT     127.0.0.1       412 127.0.0.1 /TW2014/T
o.html                                           42.922 ms - -


Alternatively, you can set etagAge (which is seconds, default of 3) to a ridiculously high number (like 2 hours) so it only checks the size and not the timestamp. But remember that the etag is gotten when the file is loaded, so even if it sits in your browser for six hours, it will still be the same if the file has not been modified on disk since then. There are various reasons why this could happen, which is why I added the etagAge setting. Another user had the same problem and we thought it seemed like the antivirus was changing the modified timestamp on certain drives for some reason. 

Hope that helps.
Arlen

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Mark S.

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Dec 5, 2019, 4:11:21 PM12/5/19
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I think I need an explainer about what an "etag" is. There are etags in the vim editor, but I don't think you mean the same thing.

Just to repeat. Between one save and a second attempted save was more like 6 minutes, not 6 hours. But I don't understand what the etag is and how it gets set.

Thanks!

Mohammad

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Dec 5, 2019, 4:23:11 PM12/5/19
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Hi Arlen,

More feedback

I understood that we can keep TiddlyServer2.1 in separate folder from setting.json. So I think the below description may be helpful for new users

--On Windows 10

  • After testing TiddlyServer one can have a setting directory to keep setting.json
  • The setting folder (directory) can be placed any where like "C:\Users\Mohammad\Documents" (Mohammad can be another name for other user)
  • In the setting directory one can have a batch file to start the server like startServer.cmd as below
REM TiddlyServer 2.1
node D:\TiddlyServer-2.1\server.js settings.json
  • In above case server is located under D:\TiddlyServer-2.1
  • Other folder can be in the parent folder of setting directory
Example:
 If the setting.json is located under C:\TW\TiddlyServer2.1 then

-- C:
---- TW
------ TiddlyServer
---------- setting.js
-----------startServer.cmd
------ Personal
-------Working
-------Sandbox
-------backups

This is while TiddlerServer itself is located in C:\Program Files\TiddlyServer2.1  or  D:\TiddlyServer-2.1
Dont forget backups which is used to backup single file wikis.

This is helpful to be added to documentation.

One question:

I see Tiddlyserver knows path like ~\Desktop? Does it also recognize absolute path?


--Mohammad

Mark S.

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Dec 5, 2019, 4:25:07 PM12/5/19
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After speed-reading wikipedia, it seems to me that if the browser's cache doesn't update correctly, it might hang on to a 6 hour old etag value. I've noticed firefox doing this in other capacities. For instance, after reloading a list of my current reading, items that were previously unchecked will still show. I will have to load the page a second time in order to display the correct values.

Arlen Beiler

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Dec 5, 2019, 8:15:59 PM12/5/19
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Yes, user-relative paths use the NodeJS os module to get the user's home directory. All other paths use NodeJS path.resolve, with the absolute path to the settings.json file as the first argument, which means that if NodeJS path module thinks a path is not absolute, it will use settings.json as the source for the relative path. 

On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 4:23 PM Mohammad <mohammad...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Arlen,

More feedback

I understood that we can keep TiddlyServer2.1 in separate folder from setting.json. So I think the below description may be helpful for new users

--On Windows 10

  • After testing TiddlyServer one can have a setting directory to keep setting.json
  • The setting folder (directory) can be placed any where like "C:\Users\Mohammad\Documents" (Mohammad can be another name for other user)
  • In the setting directory one can have a batch file to start the server like startServer.cmd as below
REM TiddlyServer 2.1
node D:\TiddlyServer-2.1\server.js settings.json
  • Other folder can be in the parent folder of setting directory
Example:
 If the setting.json is locted under C:\TW\TiddlyServer2.1 then

-- C:
---- TW
------ TiddlyServer
---------- setting.js
-----------startServer.cmd
------ Personal
-------Working
-------Sandbox
-------backups

This is while TiddlerServer itself is located in C:\Program Files\TiddlyServer2.1
Dont forget backups which is used to backup single file wikis

One question:

I see Tiddlyserver knows path like ~\Desktop? Does it also recognize absolute path?


--Mohammad

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Arlen Beiler

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Dec 5, 2019, 8:34:11 PM12/5/19
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In this case the etag, while basically the same idea, is handled by the browser-side TiddlyWiki and is stored in the pages JavaScript, so it isn't affected by the cache. This problem is usually server-side or disk-side -- its rarely related to the browser. 

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Mark S.

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Dec 5, 2019, 11:33:54 PM12/5/19
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Disabling etag has made a major improvement in performance.

Mohammad

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Dec 8, 2019, 2:01:49 AM12/8/19
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Hi Arlen,
 Where is the landing page of TiddlyServer!
I gonna to give try if I can use TW for landing page!

--Mohammad

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 11:30:43 PM UTC+3:30, Arlen Beiler wrote:
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Arlen Beiler

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Dec 9, 2019, 8:09:08 AM12/9/19
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src/generateDirectoryListing.js

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Arlen Beiler

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Dec 9, 2019, 8:17:25 AM12/9/19
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sometimes browsers let you send script tags after the html tag is closed, you could try inserting the directory entries in there. I use vscode, which will give you intellisense help. I also recommend running npm install which should give you the same npm dependancies as I use. Hopefully everything's configured correctly. If it says it can't find a module, just let me know. 

Mohammad

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Dec 9, 2019, 8:32:08 AM12/9/19
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Thanks I will have a look!


On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 4:39:08 PM UTC+3:30, Arlen Beiler wrote:
src/generateDirectoryListing.js

Eric Shulman

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Dec 9, 2019, 9:57:33 PM12/9/19
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I have unpinned this topic.  If there is a reason to re-pin it... just ask.

-e
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