Is there a permanent TiddlyFox solution?

[JWHoneycutt]

I remember taking care of this before, but the problem is back.  

1) When I drag a TW5.html file onto the FireFox icon, it automatically loads it. (Mac OS Sierra 10.12.6, Firefox 55.0.3 (64 bit)) 

2) As soon as I start to modify a tiddler, my check icon turns red - when I click it to save my changes, a notification drops down saying it's saved at the same time an "Opening TW5.html" popup appears from blob: (?) which offers a choice to open or save... neither works. 

3) I have loaded the TiddlyFox add-on, and it is enabled. Below is from it's instructions:

Please note that you need to explicitly enable TiddlyFox 2.x for each TiddlyWiki file that you want to use with it.

When you first load a TiddlyWiki file from a file:// URI the TiddlyFox toolbar icon will show a blue ball. 

4) I have seen the fox on globe icon, and turned it from blue to green before - but now there is no fox on globe icon.

5) Last time, I think my problem was some security feature, maybe "HTTPS everywhere",  or my VPN (Private Internet Access), or something - I have them all disabled, and still no icon.

There is something simple I am overlooking - right? Do I really have to disable security features?

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi,

Tiddlyfox is slated to stop working altogether with Firefox 57 and they might be preparing you for that eventuality by disabling it. If you goto "about:addons" (type it in the address bar) do you see Tiddlyfox listed as running? (it should say 'legacy' but it might also be disabled by default).

Regards,

Richard

[Jim W]

Forgive my ignorance, I've looked for some kind of consensus on what happens when TiddlyFox stops working when Firefox 57 gets here but haven't really found one. For a long time TiddlyWiki/TiddlyFox user what's the best course of action if I'm not willing to give up standard Firefox (I don't really like the idea of using something like FirefoxESR)? Or what options are there? I feel like I must be missing something, seems like main TiddlyWiki.com instructions would stop advising you to install TiddlyFox if it's slated to stop working?

[Lost Admin]

To the best of my knowledge, there is no planned replacement for TiddlyFox (Jeremy, please correct me if I'm wrong). The extension mechanism that TiddlyFox relies on will be removed from Firefox when version 57 gets here. The mechanism that replaces it will not support the functionality needed to write a replacement add-on (also, correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not an extension developer).

There are a number of alternatives. Some exist today, some are still in discussion. None are exactly like TiddlyFox. Some of them include:

Running TiddlyWiki on Node.js (http://tiddlywiki.com/static/TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js.html)

Running TiddlyServer on your computer (https://github.com/Arlen22/TiddlyServer)

Running Noteself instead (https://noteself.github.io/)

Running IIS or Apache locally configured to support WebDAV (various discussions on this forum)

Each of those options has benefits and disadvantages. All of them (except using Noteself) require you to install software on your computer (this might not be an option in some situations).

Noteself with a properly configured CouchDB server somewhere on the Internet (or on your local computer) is a pretty interesting solution but some people are having challenges getting set-up the way they want. Without a CouchDB server you could easily lose everything (clearing all local data would delete all your saved content if you don't have CouchDB).

[@TiddlyTweeter]

TiddlyFox cannot be updated unless Mozilla change their API which there is NO sign they will do.

I wrote an overview post concerning keeping your Firefox going till at least spring next year.

Longer term you should look at TiddlyServer or using WebDav locally.

BOTH have been discussed & used successfully recently. They are less complicated than some of the other options. Saving WILL go on--but not quite so easily as before.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Mark S.]

You can also use the default save mechanism. Works every time everywhere.

To make it more convenient, you then use a simple batch launch script whenever you start up (just like a regular desktop app). I've made one for Windows (I have another post about it). I'm confident that one could be made for Linux. My understanding is that there is a batch language available for Mac, so maybe someone could put one together for that platform (or send me an Mac and I'll do it ;-) )

This is the simplest solution. Of the other solutions, only TiddlyServer comes close. With node.js you lose single-file ability. 

Mark

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S. & all,

Three quick points ...

1 - Firefox is not over till spring NEXT year (my point), and worth underlining, I think.

2 - TiddlyServer is definitely the easiest route after that (I think something you'd agree with, Mark?)

3 - Your batch system for saving I read about before. It sounds interesting but I'm still unclear how it works.

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Jim: I don't really like the idea of using something like FirefoxESR

Why? Has it got diseases? Lol.

Its just Firefox that lags behind on cutting edge. But it has full security updates. Once 57 fully comes in it will be the ONLY Mozilla supported Firefox left that will run TiddlyFox. It should continue to run TidelyFox till March, or later, next year.

Notte
Josiah

[magev958]

How about https://twcloud.github.io/tw5-dropbox/? I presume that will still work?

[Mark S.]

3 - Your batch system for saving I read about before. It sounds interesting but I'm still unclear how it works.

It's simple. Start with the question: What's wrong with the default save?

The only thing wrong with the default save, is that it doesn't save to the original directory and file name where you started. Outside of that, you can click save all day long inside of your browser session and everything works fine.

If you were to work around this by hand, whenever you started your TW session you'd go into your download directory, find the most recent version of your file, and copy it back into the original directory with the original file name.

What the batch script does is to automate this. You click on the link and the script searches for the most recent version of your file, copies it back into the original directory, and then launches your TW script in your browser. There's no need to have a server running all day long. No executable. No plugins. No hidden data structures. As a bonus, you constantly have a back-up of your TW file much like you used to have in TWC.

I picked a terrible title for my first post on this. I should revisit that sometime.

Mark

[TonyM]

Jim,

I have just jumped to FireFox ESR as a portable app, Not because I was forced to, to use tiddlyfox but because most of my preferred plugins just turned legacy. As much as I would like to keep using the latest version of Firefox the current direction may not be the best. If additional security is to be applied, there should always be ways to retain functionality, this is not occurring in current releases, the ability to call the browser "the universal client" is fading.

Using a portable app, lets you keep the latest version installed if required,

In time I expect we will have more answers.

Regards
Tony

[JWHoneycutt]

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies.

It seems as though there is confusion about the best way forward.

1) TiddlyFox is going away sometime - so I don't want to get too enamored with it (Yes it is an installed add-on (Legacy) that does not work for me now)

2) @Mark S - The beauty of a solution that works every time is ideal, except that you then proceed to explain that the default save has a "pain in the ass" character to it involving don't forget to's or batch like this...
3) I have tried NoteSelf, and lost enough info due to my lack of understanding how simple it is - "just use it" becomes "just keep retyping the same tiddlers"
4) I am totally willing to jump away from a single file system and into Node.JS, but as a newbie it acts strange, pulling up things I didn't mean to be in this directory... and I just don't understand it yet (but I think I would like it)

5) TiddlyDesktop is my one and only savior - it is the ONLY way I currently know how to reliably update a tiddler, save to Dropbox, and find it later.

I can live with that.  the only problem is when I link to an external TW5.html file, it loads it in FireFox, and I have to remember NOT TO UPDATE IT THERE - use only for reference. If I want to start typing, I have to remember to launch it directly from TiddlyDesktop independently.

Does this thinking make sense?

[Mark S.]

I don't understand your objection in #2. You're saying you'd rather install an entire server or application on your system rather than deal with a 5-line batch file?

[RichardWilliamSmith]

In my opinion, Tiddlyserver is the best solution. It's a really neat piece of work. You can use it to expose as much or as little of the filing system as you like and it seamlessly integrates with Tiddlywiki folders. I really think it's a great piece of work.

I wonder whether Arlen has already done any work on packing it as an electron app or similar (?) to make it even easier for people to use but it's already not very difficult at all. At the moment, I have two instances of it running my whole Tiddlywiki life - one on my machine as always and another on a Raspberry Pi plugged into my router. So far it's been really stable and rather something of a revelation. I can now Tiddle with impugnity from my iphone, for example.

[TonyM]

Mark,

One of my projects is to allow the generation of batch files from tiddlers. This could ultimately allow the generation of the batch file with ease.

Regards
Tony

[Arlen Beiler]

No, I haven't. The main reason is because it keeps the file size down: 2 MB vs 80 MB. I guess there is nothing that would prevent someone from doing it, though. 

I am also thinking that TiddlyServer may be the permanent TiddlyFox/Chrome saving solution. It had been discussed in Hangouts, and the first version was similar to TiddlyDesktop. In an effort to cut down on complexity and bugs I completely skipped all the management stuff and just made it file-system-based when I wrote version 2. There are a few features that I am considering for creating folders and files. 

Rather than trying to make things as absolutely simple as possible, I try to make it configurable and easy to understand. So I welcome questions asking how to set it up. Eventually some of these things will go into a FAQ page and install guide. 

Enjoy!

[Jim W]

From the FirefoxESR page: "Who is it not for? Individual users who always want the latest features, performance enhancements and technologies in their browser without waiting for them to become available in ESR several development cycles later."

Unfortunately I fall into that camp but the further I look into FF57 (I think I've been caught off guard since most of my preferred add-ons are getting the ax and no word on 57+ updates) I might be using FirefoxESR while I try to settle on a new browser. As far as TiddlyWiki the replies here have really helped, I'll be looking into converting over to Node.JS or maybe dig into TiddlyServer.

[Mark S.]

I forget that a lot of people find script files something mysterious. In the early days before the registry, everyone using a computer had to know about bat files when doing software installs.

Here's all that's needed to launch TW as an app.

Put this script as a text file in your default download directory and name as "launch_tw.ps1"

param([string]$stem="foo", [string]$dir="")
$copyme = ls $stem*.html | sort LastWriteTime | select -last 1
$copyme = $copyme.FullName
Copy-Item $copyme -Destination $dir\$stem.html
Invoke-Item $dir\$stem.html

For each TW you want to run, create a single line script. Here's an example named tw_bible.bat:

powershell -executionpolicy bypass -File .\launch_tw.ps1 -stem "bible" -dir d:\data\apps\TW_Ant

The "stem" name is the unique first part of the name (e.g. "bible" if your tw is bible.html). The dir is the path to the directory where you want to launch your TW from. If this is the first time using this system, copy your most recent TW file to the download directory.

Do a right click on the bat file and create a shortcut. Drag the shortcut to your desktop.

Now, whenever you want to launch your TW, just double-click on the shortcut. Your default browser will come up with the TW in a tab.

That's all there's to it. You launch your TW like you would any other desktop app. Once it's loaded in your default browser, you can save with the default mechanism, knowing the next time you want to run the tw you can just click on the start-up icon.

None of this is harder to do than installing an executable and configuring a server. The scripts are simple enough that they could be typed out by hand if you were on a system cut off from the net. 

Caveats: As always, be sure to make a backup of your TW file, especially the first time you use this (if you're still using the TiddlyFox plugin, this approach might over-write your most recent TW file from a previous file in your download directory.) At the end of a session, if you need your file to synch somewhere (e.g. it's in a dropbox folder) then just run the shortcut again to copy over the most recent version. There might be more tweaking -- I don't have any beta testers yet! ;-)  I used it for a week and everything was fine (I'm using TiddlyFox as long as I can).


Mark

[Arlen Beiler]

Hi Mark, 

I'm wondering why you think TiddlyServer is hard to set up. I'm curious if you've tried it yet, and if you have, I would be happy to answer any questions you have and/or walk you through the setup, since it will help me know how to write the documentation. How can I help you use TiddlyServer to accomplish what you need?

Always good to explore other options though.

Thanks,

-Arlen

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[Mark S.]

I didn't say setting up TiddlyServer was so hard. I said that setting up a batch file is no harder than setting up a server.

Multiple options is always a good thing. I'm trying to point out that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the default save mechanism. Each approach is likely to have some sort of drawback. For instance, when I'm running TiddlyServer my external links to local files no longer work. I could change them to use the server system path, but then they wouldn't work when I moved them to a device. TiddlyServer won't run on my aging Android (Termux isn't available until KitKit) so I would need 2 different links for the 2 different ways of working.

Also, TiddlyServer doesn't serve up MHT files. I realize that most people don't know about MHT, which is a shame. Once you've started using MHT files, you realize that this one of the most convenient ways to capture web pages. Of course, it might be the end of the road for MHT when FF57 comes out -- no way to know for sure until it happens. Pardon me if this already exists, but it would be nice if there was a way to tell TS to go ahead and serve up files of a particular extension. Then it will be up to the user to know if their browser or set up can handle that particular file type.

One of my other concerns is that I wasn't sure based on your prior comments whether you were going to continue to support TS, or if you were going to direct your attentions to a commercial product.

Anyways. TiddlyServer is a very nice setup. It might even be the one I eventually go with. But I don't think people should overlook the default save mechanism just because it isn't convenient out of the box.

Thanks!
Mark

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[Arlen Beiler]

My bad, I see I misunderstood you. Yes, I think having many options available to us is a good thing.

TiddlyServer will serve any file in any directory it is told to serve. Whether or not it will have the correct content-type header is another matter, but if it doesn't, please feel free to open an issue on Github. 

Also, would relative links work for you? It would seem like that would be supported by both, regardless of protocol, etc. It depends on your file layout, but as you said you could change them, which seems to indicate that relative links should work fine. 

Yes, I will continue to support TiddlyServer in my spare time. I actually took off work at times to work on it, but now it is going to have to be a spare time project unless maybe if people support it via PayPal. TiddlyServer has stabilized now so it is a lot less work to maintain.

Thanks for your thoughts. Enjoy!

Arlen

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[RichardWilliamSmith]

Tiddlyserver is great. Thanks very much for the work you've done on it. It's worked flawlessly for me so far.

In my opinion, the 'default' saving mechanism is badly flawed to the extent that there is no auto-save. That's enough to stop me from using it.

At the moment, I do all my writing in Tiddlywiki but if I had to rely on my stupid brain remembering to save my work all the time (like in the bad old days) I think I would have to switch to generating content in a wordprocessor and flipping it across into TW, it's that important.

Although the bloat on electron apps is indeed comical, I may nevertheless have a 'play' and see if I can make it work as an electron app. I'm also exploring how I might make a raspberry pi image available for people to use (the 'obvious' way is to seed a torrent of it somewhere, perhaps also on my raspberry pi!)

Arlen

[JWHoneycutt]

@ Mark S

I remember simple batch files, and appreciate how this is not that different.  Except that this feels entirely different.

 

Here's all that's needed to launch TW as an app.

Put this script as a text file in your default download directory and name as "launch_tw.ps1"

param([string]$stem="foo", [string]$dir="")
$copyme = ls $stem*.html | sort LastWriteTime | select -last 1
$copyme = $copyme.FullName
Copy-Item $copyme -Destination $dir\$stem.html
Invoke-Item $dir\$stem.html

For each TW you want to run, create a single line script. Here's an example named tw_bible.bat:

powershell -executionpolicy bypass -File .\launch_tw.ps1 -stem "bible" -dir d:\data\apps\TW_Ant

The "stem" name is the unique first part of the name (e.g. "bible" if your tw is bible.html). The dir is the path to the directory where you want to launch your TW from. If this is the first time using this system, copy your most recent TW file to the download directory.

Do a right click on the bat file and create a shortcut. Drag the shortcut to your desktop.

Now, whenever you want to launch your TW, just double-click on the shortcut. Your default browser will come up with the TW in a tab.

That's all there's to it. You launch your TW like you would any other desktop app. Once it's loaded in your default browser, you can save with the default mechanism, knowing the next time you want to run the tw you can just click on the start-up icon.

None of this is harder to do than installing an executable and configuring a server. The scripts are simple enough that they could be typed out by hand if you were on a system cut off from the net. 

I am hoping that IF a batch file is necessary (and easy) it autodetects the operating system, autoloads and autosaves.  Basically don't require me to know anything about it.  If I need to establish this batch file for each unique system and file, it's analogous to the difference between using an iphone and jailbreaking an iphone - not that hard (assuming you know what you are doing, and chose the right method, and don't upgrade, and ...)

My Mother can use an iphone, but I don't trust myself to jailbreak one (after a steep learning curve).

BTW, Does anybody actually USE TW5.html on their ipad or iphone? How?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

This is OPINION.

Its obvious we have MANY methods to save TW.

Perhaps the single biggest issue is lack of a RESOURCE POINT that DOCUMENTS in detail how to set them up.

The current situation is a good example, IMO, where lack of centralisation makes its very difficult for newbies to: (a) understand the options; (b) get clear procedural instructions on what to do even once they mastered (a).

Even I have difficulty looking back over the Google Swamp finding the needed threads.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Riz]

It is time to consider user friendliness of the solutions too. For those who are used to TW and can find their way around a problem, these solutions will do. However, can you imagine telling someone knew stuff like:

"Oh, and by the way, the only way to save it, is to download a new copy everytime you modify something."

"You can totally save it if you are willing to use a slightly outdated firefox version with an addon that is no longer supported."

"Would you be willing to modify a batch-script for every TW you use?"

"Do you know to run a node js server?"



I use Tiddlyserver for my day to day usage. Apart from the noticeable lag times to load a data folder in my android, it works perfectly. MY idea of an ideal solution based on Tiddlyserver would involve the two things below.

1. Consider packing it to deb/exe/whatever-mac-uses formats. The installer should ideally place necessary shortcuts and menu entries in the corresponding folder to each OS.
2. The opening HTML is replaced by a TW itself. It should show links to the various TW as it does now. In addition, that tiddlywiki should also have a control panel, which would allow the user to new TW paths, and modify settings. It won't be hard to cook up a button that will export these settings to json format.



On the other end of debate is people who do not have the necessary admin privileges to install node js on their system.

[RichardWilliamSmith]

1. Consider packing it to deb/exe/whatever-mac-uses formats. The installer should ideally place necessary shortcuts and menu entries in the corresponding folder to each OS.

Excellent idea. I started researching how we might do that. My best guess so far is nexe: https://github.com/nexe/nexe

 

2. The opening HTML is replaced by a TW itself. It should show links to the various TW as it does now. In addition, that tiddlywiki should also have a control panel, which would allow the user to new TW paths, and modify settings. It won't be hard to cook up a button that will export these settings to json format.

Terrible idea (no offence) - the current interface is nice and simple and wouldn't gain anything from being a Tiddlywiki itself. Controls for adding new paths and creating new tiddlywiki folders and single-file editions is a great idea though and I think Arlen already mentioned the possibility.

As to your general point, I do agree that there are some people who may get value from Tiddlywiki but not know how to run a node server - having something that 'just works' is a worthwhile goal. But, let's be honest, Tiddlywiki is really mostly for 'geeks' at the end of the day :-). (imagine telling someone "oh, right, you've accidentally nested a list of all your notes inside a list of all your notes, so your 'wordprocessor' crashed. Just restart it and figure out a way to delete that note without opening it...") :-)

As for how one actually does 'run a node server', I worry that we have over-dramatised it in previous discussions. It isn't difficult and doesn't require any special knowledge. You install Node like any other piece of software (https://nodejs.org) and you need to run half a dozen commands from the command line (they're given briefly at the start of my static sites tutorial here: https://www.didaxy.com/exporting-static-sites-from-tiddlywiki-part-1). I suppose if you haven't used the command line at all, it's a bit of a pain, but learning is good for you :-)

[Arlen Beiler]

On the other end of debate is people who do not have the necessary admin privileges to install node js on their system. -- Riz

You can copy the node.exe file into the TiddlyServer (downloaded from the releases page) or TiddlyWiki directory (downloaded from the main code page) and then everything will basically work the same, except for any npm commands.  

As for how one actually does 'run a node server', I worry that we have over-dramatised it in previous discussions. It isn't difficult and doesn't require any special knowledge. You install Node like any other piece of software (https://nodejs.org) and you need to run half a dozen commands from the command line (they're given briefly at the start of my static sites tutorial here: https://www.didaxy.com/exporting-static-sites-from-tiddlywiki-part-1). I suppose if you haven't used the command line at all, it's a bit of a pain, but learning is good for you :-) -- Richard

Great point. Just thought I'd point out that this is for static sites, not TiddlyServer. And you've made it really simple! A glance-over looks like I've finally hit gold when it comes to static sites. TiddlyServer is even simpler -- after installing Node, you just extract a zip file and edit settings.json to your liking. 

This is OPINION. Its obvious we have MANY methods to save TW. Perhaps the single biggest issue is lack of a RESOURCE POINT that DOCUMENTS in detail how to set them up.  -- Josiah

I share your opinion. So I created this page: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/TiddlyWiki_Manual/Saving_Methods and added Mark's script to it.  

Arlen

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[Lost Admin]

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 7:54:55 AM UTC-4, RichardWilliamSmith wrote:

...imagine telling someone "oh, right, you've accidentally nested a list of all your notes inside a list of all your notes, so your 'wordprocessor' crashed. Just restart it and figure out a way to delete that note without opening it...

Been there, done that. Don't think you can't kill yourself with Word macros. It doesn't take TiddlyWiki to have the ability to stab yourself in the back. 

[Riz]

 

2. The opening HTML is replaced by a TW itself. It should show links to the various TW as it does now. In addition, that tiddlywiki should also have a control panel, which would allow the user to new TW paths, and modify settings. It won't be hard to cook up a button that will export these settings to json format.

Terrible idea (no offence) - the current interface is nice and simple and wouldn't gain anything from being a Tiddlywiki itself. Controls for adding new paths and creating new tiddlywiki folders and single-file editions is a great idea though and I think Arlen already mentioned the possibility.

        


 I agree and beg to  differ actually. Replacing it with a TW opens up, well, all the possibilities of TW, including sorting your various TW as we like it and customising the interface. When you are setting up a personal knowledgebase, or a system of many standalone TW, this can be incredibly uselful. I agree that it need not be a part of Tiddly server interface. Interested parties can set up something like  http://127.0.0.1:8082/index.html and go from there. No need to add an extra 2MB to TS.

Tiddlywiki is really mostly for 'geeks' at the end of the day :-).

Well, I disagree, but as it won't add anything to the main point of discussion, I am not elaborating on that.

Riz

[ste...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 6:22:36 AM UTC+2, JWHoneycutt wrote:

5) TiddlyDesktop is my one and only savior - it is the ONLY way I currently know how to reliably update a tiddler, save to Dropbox, and find it later.

 
I like TiddlyDesktop, and I think it might be a fairly accessible solution for non-geeks. However, the latest version is two years old. Will there be an update at some point?

Cheers,

Stef

[@TiddlyTweeter]

TiddlyDesktop is RETIRED, I believe.

TiddlyServer, effectively, replaces it.

The main problem you will get over time with TiddlyDesktop is that the "rendering engine" is out of date so more modern designed pages that use the later CSS will begin to break down in TiddlyDesktop as the underlying system has no idea what to do with them.

That may include the LOOK of TiddlyWiki itself.

IF you see no visual problems then I'd just carry on.

BUT know it can't go on forever.

Best wishes
Josiah

[ste...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 3:10:47 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

The main problem you will get over time with TiddlyDesktop is that the "rendering engine" is out of date so more modern designed pages that use the later CSS will begin to break down in TiddlyDesktop as the underlying system has no idea what to do with them.

Yes, I encountered such problems as well. However, since TiddlyDesktop is based on NW.js, I wondered whether building a new TiddlyDesktop version with most recent NW.js might fix this issue (but maybe it's not worth doing, anyway).

Cheers,

Stef

[ste...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 3:19:11 PM UTC+2, ste...@gmail.com wrote:

Yes, I encountered such problems as well. However, since TiddlyDesktop is based on NW.js, I wondered whether building a new TiddlyDesktop version with most recent NW.js might fix this issue (but maybe it's not worth doing, anyway).

Update: Found the thread where this was discussed (although more focused on feature requests than on TiddlyDesktop bugs): https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tiddlywiki/nw.js|sort:date/tiddlywiki/Nycn2cmhfms/oa07gVlDBQAJ

[Mark S.]

Didn't I see something somewhere suggesting that TiddlyDesk would no longer be developed?

[Mark S.]

There is a central location. It's called TiddlyWiki.com. It has instructions for saving that work fine. It's just that you're anticipating a future problem. Clearly the crop of work-arounds for that future problem are still in discussion, so it would be superfluous (at last, after 30 years I get to use that word! Thank Mrs. Hensley!) and confusing to post details on them while they're still in flux

[Jim W]

I converted over to Node.js but I guess now I've lost the ability to encrypt all my tiddlers? There's a plugin to manually encrypt tiddlers but it looks abandoned without the important feature of confirming the password (I want to avoid ruining a tiddler with one typo). 

Whatever option for moving past FF57 becomes consensus (and I fully agree with Riz's concerns) I hope easy full encryption will still be an option. If I move over to TiddlyServer is there a workable path toward that?

On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 3:12:53 PM UTC-5, Lost Admin wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, there is no planned replacement for TiddlyFox (Jeremy, please correct me if I'm wrong). The extension mechanism that TiddlyFox relies on will be removed from Firefox when version 57 gets here. The mechanism that replaces it will not support the functionality needed to write a replacement add-on (also, correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not an extension developer).

There are a number of alternatives. Some exist today, some are still in discussion. None are exactly like TiddlyFox. Some of them include:

Running TiddlyWiki on Node.js (http://tiddlywiki.com/static/TiddlyWiki%2520on%2520Node.js.html)

Running TiddlyServer on your computer (https://github.com/Arlen22/TiddlyServer)

Running Noteself instead (https://noteself.github.io/)

Running IIS or Apache locally configured to support WebDAV (various discussions on this forum)

Each of those options has benefits and disadvantages. All of them (except using Noteself) require you to install software on your computer (this might not be an option in some situations).

Noteself with a properly configured CouchDB server somewhere on the Internet (or on your local computer) is a pretty interesting solution but some people are having challenges getting set-up the way they want. Without a CouchDB server you could easily lose everything (clearing all local data would delete all your saved content if you don't have CouchDB).

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S.

Mark S: ... TiddlyWiki.com. It has instructions for saving that work fine.

NO it doesn't for what is beginning to happen now.

My opinion of your opinion is its (a) loading up @Jermolene with too much work and (b) Tiddlywiki.com on stuff like this is nearly always out of date. Go look at it now in the context of this thread.

Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Just use TiddlyServer.

Why get into combobulations you don't need when Arlen made a replacement already?

[Mark S.]

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 6:53:01 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Ciao Mark S.

Mark S: ... TiddlyWiki.com. It has instructions for saving that work fine.

NO it doesn't for what is beginning to happen now.

Beginning to happen? Where?

Hasn't happened yet. Solutions aren't developed yet.  Thus, no documentation yet.

[Mark S.]

Tiddlywiki is really mostly for 'geeks' at the end of the day :-).

Well, I disagree, but as it won't add anything to the main point of discussion, I am not elaborating on that.

It relates to the conversation  in terms of the question: How much technical interest can we expect TW users to have?

Name one non-geeky reason someone would choose TW over evernote, one-note, note-pad, or word. ;-)

Mark

[ste...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 3:57:06 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Just use TiddlyServer.

Why get into combobulations you don't need when Arlen made a replacement already?

This isn't a problem for me personally, as I'm running TiddlyWiki in all kinds of incarnations already (including TiddlySpot, classic Node.js etc.) However, I wouldn't feel comfortable suggesting TiddlyServer to a newbie with limited technical knowledge (= regular Windows user) right now. With TiddlyDesktop, you download and install one set of binary files and you're done.

Cheers,

Stef

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Stef ...
 

ste...@gmail.com wrote: With TiddlyDesktop, you download and install one set of binary files and you're done.

I AGREE. If TiddlyServer could be packaged like that then the issue would be done. It probably could be. TiddlyDesktop was essentially exactly that: an installable "server +". TiddlyDesktop and TiddlyServer are so close they could be brothers.

J, x

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S.

You hit exactly the Catch-22.

Mark S. Beginning to happen? Where?

Its OBVIOUS that Firefox 57 will cause grief.

Tiddlywiki.com is NOT a medium for that updateness. @Jermolene is one person and I am unhappy seeing EVERYTHING we don't deal with being dumped on him. In any case its NOT updated that much.

But, neither, it appears is ANYWHERE ELSE MAKING IT FOR NEWBIES.

J, x

[Mark S.]

To use your expression, why get into combobulations for something that's not a problem yet?

Why would anyone expect documentation for something that (A) isn't a problem and (B) has no well-defined solutions?

That doesn't mean the group shouldn't be thinking about it, of course.

Once solutions are figured out, Jeremy won't have to worry about documentation (other than approving it). I'm sure one or more of us will step up to the plate.

Mark

[@TiddlyTweeter]

GIVE Arlen money ... or are you a cheapskate that uses his stuff for nothing, forever?

Arlen Yes, I will continue to support TiddlyServer in my spare time. I actually took off work at times to work on it, but now it is going to have to be a spare time project unless maybe if people support it via PayPal.

His PayPal is here:  https://www.paypal.me/Arlen22

[Lost Admin]

I'll give you 4

1) OneNote is slow.

2) Notepad (the windows program) doesn't do rich text.

3) Managing links in word is hellish.

4) We are not allowed to install EverNote at work.

One of my colleagues at work saw me using TiddlyWiki to track my various projects and started asking questions. I pointed him at tiddlywiki.com and send a copy of empty.html. He's now using it too. He just saves (to downloads) and opens the one with the highest number.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S.

The thing you miss is NOW. A lot of users of Firefox ARE (A) hitting problems already and (B) the solutions are CLEAR already.

And (C) the solutions are NOT so well documented yet for TiddlyWiki.

Josiah x

[Mark S.]

1) TiddlyWiki is slow too if you fill it with images like OneNote
2) Ok, use WordPad instead
3) If you're thinking about managing links, you're a geek
4) If you're downloading barebones TW thanks to system restrictions, then you're going to be geeky enough to understand the default save mechanism or how to install plugins.

Mark

[Mark S.]

Which users are hitting problems? I'm only 1 rev behind (my general philosophy) and TiddlyFox is working fine. At what rev will TF break for sure? All this hype made me work on the batch solution. Then I updated and found that I didn't need it -- yet.

I see lots of debate on solutions. If solutions are clear enough to document, then consider submitting them to GitHub. Or putting up a thread that documents the solutions succinctly (preferably as .tid files) so the text can be grabbed by someone like me and put into a PR.  For myself, I don't want to go through the trouble of documenting something and then finding it has to be completely rewritten 2 days later because the solution was still in work.

Mark

[Riz]

?!! How many cross-platform portable note taking apllications are there? Amongst them how many enables you to categorise your notes? In the slant poll for the best cross platform note taking apllications available in 2017, Tiddlywiki stands 9th. Wonder how many of the 8 above works in linux and android, and will allow user to work offline? Zero. I do not what where is the line drawn between geeky reasons and non geeky reasons, but assuming none of these are concerns of "non-geeky" users are, I don't know, a leap?


Plus, how is this even a confrontational issue? If the consensus of the group is that we are only expecting technical users and not common-folk to use TW5, then this whole discussion is moot. A simpler graphical solution will help even the technical geniuses I guess.
 

[@TiddlyTweeter]

WRONG THREAD

Do a new one in which in will tell you about textbases, evernotes and appropriate th/(m)emes.

J. x

[Birthe C]

Hi Riz,

I for one was were happy to read that you considered a solution that was easy enough for an old lady like myself to use.

Tiddlyserver is happily running on my Windows computer, but I have had absolutely no luck on my linux laptop. I am absolutely  not technical but I just love tiddlywiki and have used it for about 7 years ;-)


Birthe

[Arlen Beiler]

I didn't write TiddlyServer for geeks :)

I just haven't gotten around to making it dead simple yet.

Ok, I actually just wrote it as a static file server wrapper around Node TW5. Future versions will probably have more features. 

I don't really want to bundle Node since it is already so simple to install. If I did bundle Node I would still have to provide the same 10 or so options that https://www.nodejs.org/ gives you. And I guarantee it won't look as pretty or work as well :) This way I can give you one download that will work on every platform. 

Arlen

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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe C wrote:

I for one was were happy to read that you considered a solution that was easy enough for an old lady like myself to use.

??? Are you April Mackenzie ???

@TiddlyTweeter

[Birthe C]

Not exactly, but I am sure April Mackenzies everywhere use tiddlywiki.

Birthe

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Arlen

(1) Please post you PAYPAL link regularly here. Otherwise people here won't understand you need support.

(2) Arlen Beiler wrote: I didn't write TiddlyServer for geeks :)

Right. At the moment there are quite a few TiddlyDesktop users who really should convert to TiddlyServer. I don't think that many people grasp that TiddlyServer can replace TiddlyDesktop easily.

TiddlyServer---after your help---I found quite easy to use. It is looking like THE WAY AHEAD when TiddlyFox dies ... BUT I think it needs better documentation IF people don't have your direct help.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Jeremy Ruston]

Thanks for the interesting discussion. I’d just like to throw in that Beaker Browser actually makes a pretty good substitute for Firefox+TiddlyFox: https://beakerbrowser.com 

The confusing thing is that Beaker’s raison d’être that you’ll read about on their site is all about sharing data between users via a peer-to-peer protocol akin to BitTorrent. However, one doesn’t need to use any of those features in order to use Beaker for working with entirely private TiddlyWiki’s.

You’ll need to use the latest prerelease of 5.1.15; I’ve just updated the instructions:

http://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/#GettingStarted%20-%20Beaker%20Browser:%5B%5BBeaker%20Browser%5D%5D%20%5B%5BGettingStarted%20-%20Beaker%20Browser%5D%5D

Best wishes

Jeremy.

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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy

There is NO Windows version of the Beaker Browser.

That is a major downside.



Its been "coming soon" for a very long time. We are not all Mac users.

Best wishes
Josiah

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi Jeremy,

Beaker Browser is very interesting and will probably be the locus of lots of interesting, geeky experiments but it's not the solution we need as a community.

As a more practical matter, do you think it will be possible to update the main site before Firefox 57? I think it would be best for us (you) to have a clear message on the front page about the change to previous behaviour. 

There will be some users who have been party to none of our discussions who find themselves 'locked out' of Tiddlyfox sometime before the end of November. The simplest stop-gap solution is for them to switch to Firefox ESR (https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/all/) which should last for another six months or so while the wider community figures out what can be done about extensions.

There is a pretty good chance that someone will try to fork Firefox and keep the plugin mechanism alive for a while. In the meantime, as this discussion shows, we have a plethora of options to develop.

Regards,

Richard

PS: "...easy enough for an old lady like myself to use. Tiddlyserver is happily running on my Windows computer, but I have had absolutely no luck on my linux laptop" - Riz. Just wanted to point out that 'non-technical old ladies' don't generally own Linux laptops! :-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

RichardWilliamSmith wrote:

As a more practical matter, do you think it will be possible to update the main site before Firefox 57? I think it would be best for us (you) to have a clear message on the front page about the change to previous behaviour. 

Advice about usage on TiddlyFox should be available already on an ongoing basis. A lot of TW users are semi-geeks that may hit 57 before sensible normal users (on 55 if they at the edge)--even they gonna complain. My post about ESR covered it. I got tired of pointing back to it, even though it's a really good summary of the situation through to next spring. Everything is so fragmentary here. Every Darwinian idiot for themselves, I guess. But WHY IS THERE NO PINNED THREAD about this? Why offload this issue onto @Jermolene? Shirley, it could be handled here in GG?

Josiah

[PMario]

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 3:37:20 PM UTC+2, Jim W wrote:

I converted over to Node.js but I guess now I've lost the ability to encrypt all my tiddlers? There's a plugin to manually encrypt tiddlers but it looks abandoned without the important feature of confirming the password (I want to avoid ruining a tiddler with one typo). 

If you are able to use the node version, you should be also able to set up your OS to encrypt every file in your data directory on the system level. ... So there should be no need to encrypt the stuff 2 times.

Most people I know, don't consider this option, because it's conpletely transparent. So you basically don't see, that the files are encrypted. They just look like normal files. ... And if you can't see it, ... it's not there ... right?

just my 2 cents

-mario

[PMario]

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 7:20:20 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Thanks for the interesting discussion. I’d just like to throw in that Beaker Browser actually makes a pretty good substitute for Firefox+TiddlyFox: https://beakerbrowser.com 

As TiddlyTweeter points out, it's only available for macOS at the moment. I'm basically following the project on a "per commit" basis. And as much I like the concept

they are still experimenting with there internal API quite a bit. They are adding and removing features very fast.

Eg: version 0.7.5 will be completely incompatible (in the TW sense of view) with the upcomming 0.8.0 ...

So for me it's not an viable option at the moment.

 

The confusing thing is that Beaker’s raison d’être that you’ll read about on their site is all about sharing data between users via a peer-to-peer protocol akin to BitTorrent. However, one doesn’t need to use any of those features in order to use Beaker for working with entirely private TiddlyWiki’s.

Sadly that will not be true anymore with 0.8.0. The "staging area" that we used to save TW files is gone there.

-m

[Kevin Kleinfelter]

One of my main use-cases for Tiddlywiki is to capture my configuration when I build/rebuild a machine.  In the old days, on a fresh OS, I could

• login
• download from tiddlywiki.com
• And begin capturing my config

Or I could copy my existing TW knowledge base from a backup, and capture my config there.  The key thing is that I really didn't have to install stuff in order to start capturing.  My knowledge base was just *there*.

Then the browsers decided to get more secure. After a while, it reached the point where I had to install Firefox and a plugin.  Not quite a zero-setup, but at least they were both packaged installs where I could just accept the default options.

Now, I have to install node.js (where I can take the defaults on a packaged install), use npm to install tiddlywiki (and work out why it is giving me a "npm WARN enoent ENOENT: no such file or directory" error), then look up the commands to init a TW, then set up a Windows service or a Linux daemon to run node in the background, and *then* I can start using TW.

Also in the old day, I could use TW on a fully locked-down corporate-controlled PC where software cannot be installed.  I brought it in as a guerrilla wiki.  I successfully defend its use as "it's just a web page -- you don't want to forbid people to save web pages to disk do you?"

Yeah, a reasonably technical person *can* set up a node.js TW, and a flexible person who's not in a hurry and doesn't mind "friction" can make the download-and-replace-old-html-file process work.  But honestly, TW5 doesn't have the same appeal that TWC had.  It is significantly more complex to setup and operate.  I'm probably going to migrate from TWC to TW5 because I can't find a one-click-install wiki that supports text and image and stores each page in a separate file and can (mostly) import TWC data.

Its a wonderful creation if you want to putz with your wiki.  If you just want to start capturing your data in a text+data wiki, it has lost its original simplicity.

[Mark S.]

You can still use the default save, which saves as a download.  I don't think that this ability was available in the original TWC. So you can still have your guerrilla wiki, though it takes a little more thought. Just keep clicking save whenever you need to save. When you need to start a new session, just find the last save in the downloads list. As a bonus, there is automatically a trail of backups.

I'm pretty sure (it's been a long time) that the original TWC always needed a little bit of java code and a running JRE. It certainly did when I first started using it. So you're memories of the good old days may be a little bit gilded.

Mark.

[Kevin Kleinfelter]

Suppose I decide to retain an old Firefox, just to run Tiddlyfox.  Tiddlywiki has code to save data to the local HTML file via Tiddlyfox.  Is the plan for TW5 to retain that code for a long time, or is the plan to retire that code shortly after Firefox makes TiddlyFox obsolete?

i.e. If I continue to use TW5 with my obsolete Firefox, will I have to be careful not to update core TW5 to a version which breaks local auto-save?

[Arlen Beiler]

No, the TiddlyFox saver is incredibly useful and is probably here to stay, given that the actual space it takes is very small. The only thing it requires is that the host has access to the page DOM, which can be accomplished several ways and has some very good use cases. I'm not Jeremy, but I do have reasons I want to see it stay, and I doubt I am the only one.

So, in short, to maintain backward compatibility, and because it still has plenty of use cases, I don't think it will be taken out. 

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Kevin Kleinfelter <kleinfelt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Suppose I decide to retain an old Firefox, just to run Tiddlyfox.  Tiddlywiki has code to save data to the local HTML file via Tiddlyfox.  Is the plan for TW5 to retain that code for a long time, or is the plan to retire that code shortly after Firefox makes TiddlyFox obsolete?

i.e. If I continue to use TW5 with my obsolete Firefox, will I have to be careful not to update core TW5 to a version which breaks local auto-save?

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[Jim W]

Yeah I actually do have system level encryption turned on, so I'm fine if someone were to physically steal my laptop but I primarily use TiddlyWiki at work connected to my work domain. I don't necessarily trust every IT user that walks in the door or is planning to leave the company. So the technically double encryption I was using with the single file was necessary in my opinion. Even besides protecting my data from an internal rogue admin, an outside actor might compromise an privileged domain account trawl the network and grab my data. I'm considering putting my node.js tiddly inside of a veracrypt container (as recommended by Jeremy) but that will be a lot more cumbersome than the single file full encryption was and really I'll be similarly vulnerable once the container is mounted and unencrypted. Maybe I'm overthinking that, I'm sure even with the the single file encryption there were vulnerabilities to consider, but it seems fairly trivial to me to grab the unencrypted file sitting on the file-system once the OS is unlocked.

[PMario]

On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 4:26:09 PM UTC+2, Kevin Kleinfelter wrote:

Suppose I decide to retain an old Firefox, just to run Tiddlyfox.  Tiddlywiki has code to save data to the local HTML file via Tiddlyfox.  Is the plan for TW5 to retain that code for a long time, or is the plan to retire that code shortly after Firefox makes TiddlyFox obsolete?

As Arlen wrote. ... Jeremy is very very++, picky in terms of backwards compatibility. So you can be sure, the code for tiddlyfox will stay. ... The footprint is small and there is some detection if tiddlyfox is available. If it isn't available it automatically switches back to the default browser "save file" dialog.

This mechanism works today and should be there in the future. Except browsers disable downloading at all ;)

 

i.e. If I continue to use TW5 with my obsolete Firefox, will I have to be careful not to update core TW5 to a version which breaks local auto-save?

 

FF52 is an ESR version which can be used till end of June 2018. If you install the portable version you can use it side by side with the active version.

-mario