simple question: why is tiddlywiki core considered a plugin?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

why is tiddlywiki CORE considered a plugin?

[codacoder...@outlook.com]

I'd say Jeremy's choice here is the ultimate in dogfooding: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_your_own_dog_food

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Josiah

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 2:59:52 PM UTC-5, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

why is tiddlywiki CORE considered a plugin?

There's no "considered" about it, the core of TiddlyWiki is a plugin called $:/core. It's the same as any other plugin, just a bundle of tiddlers.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy

Okay. But I can't switch it OFF. What would happen if I could?

Josiah

[Jeremy Ruston]

Ciao Jeremy

Okay. But I can't switch it OFF. What would happen if I could?

The same as if you took the engine out of your car, or cut the heart out of an animal.

Best wishes

Jeremy

Josiah

On Friday, 12 May 2017 22:29:21 UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Hi Josiah

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 2:59:52 PM UTC-5, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

why is tiddlywiki CORE considered a plugin?

There's no "considered" about it, the core of TiddlyWiki is a plugin called $:/core. It's the same as any other plugin, just a bundle of tiddlers.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Jeremy

So its NOT a plugin :-)

Its the system itself.

If so, WHY is it listed as a plugin?

THAT I do not understand.

Josiah
 

Jeremy Ruston replied ...

The same as if you took the engine out of your car, or cut the heart out of an animal.

Okay. But I can't switch it OFF. What would happen if I could?

 

Jeremy Ruston wrote ...

[Jeremy Ruston]

So its NOT a plugin :-)

I'm not sure what was unclear about my reply. The core plugin is indeed a plugin, structurally identical to all other plugins.

Its the system itself.

It is both. Those are not exclusive categories. 

If so, WHY is it listed as a plugin?

Because it is a plugin, as I have already explained. 

THAT I do not understand.

What don't you understand? A plugin is a bundle of tiddlers; the core is a plugin. Simple.

Best wishes

Jeremy

Josiah
 

Jeremy Ruston replied ...

The same as if you took the engine out of your car, or cut the heart out of an animal.

Okay. But I can't switch it OFF. What would happen if I could?

 

Jeremy Ruston wrote ...

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

why is tiddlywiki CORE considered a plugin?

There's no "considered" about it, the core of TiddlyWiki is a plugin called $:/core. It's the same as any other plugin, just a bundle of tiddlers.

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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy

This may be a language difference. A "plugin" for me conjures up on OPTIONAL feature to add-on, not a system. The "core" may well share the same tiddler structure as the rest but it ALSO defines the structure of itself and the rest? Right? I think there is a meaningful difference. I am NOT fussed that Core is depicted as a plugin. But it ISN'T one in the normal sense. Switch it off and you don't have TiddlyWiki.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Birthe C]

Hi Josiah,

Tiddlywiki is one single html file. You have seen lots of html files not being tiddlywiki. Clearly something is added to it to make it a tiddlywiki. Thinking about it that way it is an add-on.


Birthe

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Josiah

This may be a language difference. A "plugin" for me conjures up on OPTIONAL feature to add-on, not a system. The "core" may well share the same tiddler structure as the rest but it ALSO defines the structure of itself and the rest? Right? I think there is a meaningful difference. I am NOT fussed that Core is depicted as a plugin. But it ISN'T one in the normal sense. Switch it off and you don't have TiddlyWiki.

Aha! That's helpful; thank you for your patience in exploring these thoughts...

The basic problem there is that you are ignoring the definition of "plugin" that TiddlyWiki uses, and instead basing your reasoning on a different definition. As I say, in TiddlyWiki, a plugin is a bundle of tiddlers. That's all.

Anyhow, the core is not optional in the sense that TiddlyWiki can operate without it, but it *is* optional in another critical sense: anybody can make an alternative core plugin.

Best wishes

Jeremy

Best wishes
Josiah

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[Arlen Beiler]

The only actually core code is in bootprefix.js and boot.js. Reminds me of Linux... :)

On May 12, 2017 20:37, "Jeremy Ruston" <jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Josiah

This may be a language difference. A "plugin" for me conjures up on OPTIONAL feature to add-on, not a system. The "core" may well share the same tiddler structure as the rest but it ALSO defines the structure of itself and the rest? Right? I think there is a meaningful difference. I am NOT fussed that Core is depicted as a plugin. But it ISN'T one in the normal sense. Switch it off and you don't have TiddlyWiki.

Aha! That's helpful; thank you for your patience in exploring these thoughts...

The basic problem there is that you are ignoring the definition of "plugin" that TiddlyWiki uses, and instead basing your reasoning on a different definition. As I say, in TiddlyWiki, a plugin is a bundle of tiddlers. That's all.

Anyhow, the core is not optional in the sense that TiddlyWiki can operate without it, but it *is* optional in another critical sense: anybody can make an alternative core plugin.

Best wishes

Jeremy

Best wishes
Josiah

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[David Gifford]

Thanks Jeremy and TiddlyTweeter for a good chuckle reading this thread. Reminded me of Alice in Wonderland:

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

It also made me wonder what the core plugs into if it is called a plugin. Does it plug into itself? Or into the browser?

:-)

Dave

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 2:59:52 PM UTC-5, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

[Jed Carty]

I have a very unhelpful answer: It plugs into boot.js between lines 1983 and 1996  (https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/boot/boot.js)

You could argue that anything that uses boot.js and bootprefix.js to start up is a tiddlywiki. I don't think that it is a useful argument, but the actual base of what tiddlywiki is is a method of loading modules that have a specific format. By themselves those two files don't do anything useful, but the idea is very similar to how the linux kernel works, and, not coincidentally, the structure I used for the code in the robot I work with.

What is probably a more useful argument is that anything website or file loaded in a browser is a browser plugin. The boot scripts for tiddlywiki are run by the browser and create the structure for loading and manipulating tiddlers. So the core is a plugin, even in the sense of an optional feature, for tiddlywiki. The tiddlywiki wouldn't be able to do much that is useful without an alternate core plugin but it would still have the parts that make it a tiddlywiki on the back-end at least. The core plugin adds the visible parts like filtering and wikitext parsing, you don't have much without them, but they are very definitely added onto the existing system created by the boot scripts.

[Mat]

The question asked in two other ways ... at least I think it is the same question:

If you delete the core plugin from an empty TW, is there anything left? If yes, what? Some empty shell perhaps? (ref to the previous analogies - even if you remove the engine or the heart, there's still something left of the car/body)

Is the standard distro anything more than the core plugin?

<:-)

[Danielo Rodríguez]

El sábado, 13 de mayo de 2017, 12:08:43 (UTC+2), Mat escribió:

If you delete the core plugin from an empty TW, is there anything left? If yes, what? Some empty shell perhaps? (ref to the previous analogies - even if you remove the engine or the heart, there's still something left of the car/body)

Yes, an html file containing with some sections and two scripts: boot and bootprefix

 

Is the standard distro anything more than the core plugin?

Yes, the mentioned html file + the core plugin. 

The core is a plugin in the sense that you can plug it out and plug in anything else in exchange.  This is due to the extreme modularity of tiddlywiki that we all love and take advantage of. 

Do you want to see what the shell is? Here it is:

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/core/templates/tiddlywiki5.html.tid

A tiddlywiki file without any core

[Mat]

Danielo, thanks! Very interesting to know!

<:-)