How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then transclude them?

[Vytas]

Hello TiddlyWiki enthusiasts,

I have recently discovered TiddlyWiki and here I have question: 

Is it in principle possible to somehow tag selected paragraphs of a text within a tiddler, so that it would be later possible to transclude all the paragraphs associated with a specific tag? 

Let's say, I write a journal with one tiddler per day, and in any given journal tiddler I write about various topics. For a given topic, the goal would be to create a new tiddler composed of all the paragraphs from different tiddlers associated with that topic. Is it possible to achieve something like this without having to create, for each topic, a separate tiddler everyday?

Warm regards,

Vytas

[Jed Carty]

The only way to do this would be to make each paragraph a separate tiddler. The text slicer plugin already does this on a larger scale so while it may not be usable for what you want it is possible to do it.

There has been a lot of discussion about things like this and sub-sections in tiddlers lead to more problems than they solve. I have some ideas on how to make a plugin that does this but I don't think I will have time to make it anytime soon.

[Mat]

Hi Vytas

Yes, I made http://cherrypicker.tiddlyspot.com and later http://attention.tiddlyspot.com for this purpose. I believe the latter is more polished than the former. Also, I vaguely recall Thomas Elmiger made some variant later and he is good at perfecting things.

It is, in deed, a functionality we need and one that is possibly even expected by modern hashtagging and 

<:-)

[Vytas]

Thank you for your responses Jed and Mat.

Mat, I have tried the CherryPicker tool. Great job! After having imported the three CherryPicker components to my wiki, I ran into an issue that the macro <<cherrypicker "HEY">> adds, for each segment, three additional unwanted lines: pfx:HEY, txt: text within a segmentHEY and rest:HEY. Luckily, I was able to remove these lines by deleting, from the CherryPicker tiddler, code lines like this

@@.pfx ''pfx'':<<pfx>><br>@@

By playing around with the CherryPicker tiddler, I was also able to display, in the aggregate tiddler, the dates when the corresponding tiddlers were modified. Which, for an inexperienced person like me, is great!

However, can there be a method to tag selected paragraphs, in a tiddler, in such a way, that the tagging symbols (in this case, the two HEY's between which the 'cherry' is located) would not be displayed in the original tiddlers? I found that instead of using HEY, squeezing the seleceted text between two lines of

@@color:white;HEY@@

prevents the word HEY from being displayed. But this seems to be a very unelegant solution :)

[Diego Mesa]

Wow Mat!!

Attention looks great! If you have the time, please make it a plugin and lets get it on the main TW site!

Diego

[Mat]

Vytas, happy you like the CherryPicker. 

@@.pfx ''pfx'':<<pfx>><br>@@

Not sure if that is intentional from my side or not. Good you solved it but if there are any side effects from your solution, you might try to add this to the stylesheet:

.pfx {display:none;}

 

By playing around with the CherryPicker tiddler, I was also able to display, in the aggregate tiddler, the dates when the corresponding tiddlers were modified. Which, for an inexperienced person like me, is great!

Yay! :-) 

However, can there be a method to tag selected paragraphs, in a tiddler, in such a way, that the tagging symbols (in this case, the two HEY's between which the 'cherry' is located) would not be displayed in the original tiddlers? I found that instead of using HEY, squeezing the seleceted text between two lines of

@@color:white;HEY@@

prevents the word HEY from being displayed. But this seems to be a very unelegant solution :)

There is no solution as general as I would prefer it, but this seems to work;

Oh, <HEY>hello there<HEY> you rascal you.

I.e put the markers inside angle brackets.

<:-)

 

[Mat]

Wow Mat!!

Attention looks great! If you have the time, please make it a plugin and lets get it on the main TW site!

Thanks Diego. Considering how nothing is really put on the main tiddlywiki.com site, but only references to it, I think it could be referred to in its current state. I.e I don't think it has to be a proper plugin and anyone is welcome to post a github pull request or however things are added there. Now, it should probably be a plugin anyway but I'm currently fiddling around with another project so it'll have to wait.

<:-)

[Vytas]

 Thank you, Mat! 

There is no solution as general as I would prefer it, but this seems to work;

Oh, <HEY>hello there<HEY> you rascal you.

I.e put the markers inside angle brackets.

 

This is very elegant! 

Now, the major drawback of the CherryPicker is that you cannot use macros and some special characters in the same tiddler where the marks appear (for example, you cannot put links to other tiddlers [except for the CamelCased tiddler titles]). 

I understand that the philosophy of tiddlers tells us that tiddlers have to be as small as possible, so that it would be easier to make use of them, e.g. tiddlywiki.com claims that:

When a tiddler seems as if it needs to contain subheadings, this is often a sign that it should in fact be split into several tiddlers.

However, I believe that, in our already fragmented world, constant fragmentation is definitely not always a solution, and, moreover, can indeed cause problems. This is why, I find the tools like CherryPicker to be really important. Because they: 

1. Do not discourage you from building more monolithic structures.
   
2. Encourage you to identify more relevant parts of those structures and mark them.
3. Allow you to collect those parts (not just links to them) by creating a possibility of building more interrelated and integral constructions.

Naturally, for those bigger monolithic structures, it is important to have the full functionality of TiddlyWiki at one's disposal. So, the question is, how could one possibly solve the known CherryPicker issue, that at its current state, it is not allowed, in the same tiddler where the marks appear, to use macrocalls, create links to tiddlers, etc.?!

Regards,

Vytas

[Jed Carty]

This conversation has happened many times, but the conclusion has always been the same. The power of tiddlywiki comes from having different tiddlers, you can't have only one tiddler and use what is special about tiddlywiki.

The way to do what you are talking about in tiddlywiki is to have a bunch of small tiddlers that are displayed using a template. You can see an example of this here (https://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TiddlyBook/#Alice’s%20Adventures%20In%20Wonderland), each paragraph is a separate tiddler but they are all displayed inside a single tiddler using a template. So you could gather together the first paragraph of each chapter, or mark the chapters or paragraphs by subject or however you want to do it and then see a list of them that fits whatever criteria you are looking for.

Anything that you do that will let you do that in a single tiddler is going to be equivalent to reinventing tiddlywiki with separate tiddlers inside a single tiddler. You will have to have the equivalent of tags and field to give each tiddler metadata so you can sort it, and something like a title if you want to be able to reference a paragraph individually, and it will have text.

The problem is an interface problem, we need to make a better interface so that we can write one tiddler and have it automatically split up based on markup (the text slicer plugin sort of does this already), not reinvent tiddlywiki inside a single tiddler.

[Vytas]

Jed, I am new to TiddlyWiki. Is there a chance you could find a link to a past conversation of this kind? That would be very interesting.

I see your point regarding the reinventing of "tiddlywiki within a single tiddler". I think automatic splitting of the whole text into different tiddlers would be an overkill for most purposes. Going along the lines of what you said, a great alternative to Mat's method would be to have macro/mark-up elements which would allow you to create and modify new tiddlers within the edit-window of some existing tiddler. For example a syntax of the following kind

<$NT[NewTiddler] tags[tag1,tag2]>Content of the new tiddler<$/NT>

could create a new tiddler named NewTiddler (or some automatically generated name if not specified) and tagged with tag1 and tag2 tags. The key feature would be the ability to edit the NewTiddler both from the edit-window of the parent tiddler, and the edit-window of the NewTiddler. However, I guess this is probably impossible without some core modifications of TiddlyWiki..

[TonyM]

Vytas,

I totaly support Jeds points.

Have you used the excise tool using the editor tool bar. This will help divide text into tiddlers while retaining a single view.

Regards
Tony

[Diego Mesa]

I think all of this would be made much simpler if there was a quick and easy way to add/edit tiddler fields. SOmething like this in the body textarea of a tiddler:

(=myNewField

bl h 

asd

sd

sf

sdf

=)

or in a special "field" textarea, collapsable right under the textarea/body. 

With this in place, yuo could easily crea/tedit/remove "fields" which are in essence, structured/tagged portions of a tiddler (dont believe me, just check a .tid file!)

[Mark S.]

 I don't think most people want to wrangle 20+ little tiddlers just so they can access one section inside an article. The old TWC had sections, and I think a lot of us were flabbergasted that the "improved" TW5 didn't. The old system works the way people actually think.

It might be different if there were better tools for moving, annotating, deleting, and ordering small tiddlers, but there's not. How do you list a bunch of tiddlers, keep them in order, move them around, without having to open individual tiddlers to modify a sort field? Or create a massive list field in a Tagging tiddler -- working in a field box shorter than this sentence? How do you put them back into a single tiddler? How do you prevent orphans? I'm sure someone could come up with various tools to accomplish these tasks after the fact, but shouldn't these tools be in the core if we're expected to routinely use them that way?

 -- Mark

[TonyM]

Mark,

One solution to what you ask is to use a Draggable List of Tiddlers along with Tobias's Preview Plugin so you can review the content on hover over each tiddler link, so you can confirm where you want to position that particular tiddler in a list of tiddlers.

The Source document can be excised into tiddlers tagged with the source documents name, then after reordering you have another tiddler that transcludes all tiddlers into it according to the Order from the Draging operations (using the List field).

In this way you actually get to retain the Original order as well as see your manipulated order. A Feature could be included to to retain original tiddlers as well as edited ones to see before and After.

Advance Opportunities then arise, like multiple virtual documents that mix and match content and presents it in different formats, such as a short and long resume based on the same content.

Tiddlers could be created with a serial number (or use the created field?) or have chapter and section fields, even need to edit flags etc...

Perhaps one could use one of the KanBan Board Solutions for organising text within a document or chapter?

Regards

Tony 

[Diego Mesa]

Hey Tony (and others)

What do you think about the idea/conceptualization of tiddler fields already being a way to "tag" and "segment" one tiddler into structured pieces? If you agree with that, wouldnt it make sense to make that job much easier?

Just curious as to what others think.

Best,

Diego

[Vytas]

I think it is not that important, whether you segment one tiddler by its fields (if their content can indeed contain longer texts, links, images..), or by creating new tiddlers within the primary tiddler, AS LONG AS you have the ability to EDIT those segments within the edit-window of that primary tiddler.

Indeed, if you are writing a coherent text, tagging separate paragraphs by excising those paragraphs into different tiddlers makes the editing very cumbersome: you have to jump to those new tiddlers to edit them and then come back to the primary tiddler to see the integral result.

[Mark S.]

When you excise you have the choice of writing over with a macro. Someone could replace the default macro ($:/core/macros/translink) with one that would allow you to edit the transclusion in place. Maybe with a reveal/hide switch so the text is only visible when you want it. There's still fiddly stuff you have to do when doing the excision (providing the title, specifying the macro).

-- Mark

[Vytas]

I am not sure, whether I should start a new discussion, so I'll ask the question the more experienced community members here:

Is it (in principle) possible to EDIT the text of a tiddler from the EDIT-WINDOW of some other tiddler? 

If it is in principle possible, could somebody describe what should I, in the first place, learn about TiddlyWiki fundamentals to be able to achieve something like that?

Thank you!

[Stephan Hradek]

It is possible to edit the content of a tiddler in the VIEW Window of another tiddler.

So if you have one tidler consistiong of transclusions of other tiddlers, it could look like this:

{{My first Paragraph||trans-edit}}

{{My second Paragraph||trans-edit}}

{{My third Paragraph||trans-edit}}

And then have a tiddler "trans-edit" which does the transclusion and also inserts code for allowing editing of the transcluded tiddler in (for example) a popup.

[Stephan Hradek]

I've created a small example for you to reproduce on tiddlywiki.com

Create some paragraph tiddlers. I've called them A, B and C containing some Lorem Ipsum text.

Example

AA
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aliquam eget ex nunc. Maecenas blandit efficitur erat a malesuada. Vivamus sit.
AA

Then I creted 2 tiddlers which are the "workhorses":

trans-editor:

<$edit-text tiddler=<<tiddler2edit>>/>

and trans-edit

<$list filter=<<currentTiddler>> variable="theTiddler">

<$button class="tc-btn-invisible tc-tiddlylink">
<$action-sendmessage $message="tm-modal" $param="trans-editor" tiddler2edit=<<theTiddler>> />
{{$:/core/images/edit-button}}
</$button> <$transclude tiddler=<<theTiddler>> />

</$list>

Finally create your tiddler which will transclude all your paragraph tiddlers:

{{
[[A]]
[[B]]
[[C]]
||
trans-edit
}}

This will show all the paragraphs prepended with an edit-icon.

When you click it, a modal window will appear allowing you to edit the content of the paragraph.

Tasks left for you: Create some nice CSS to make the edit window appear in a size you like. Currently it's quite small.

[Thomas Elmiger]

This looks like a cool concept, Stephan, thanks for sharing!

I will try it, when I find some time.

Cheers!
Thomas

[Birthe C]

Hi Stephan,

That is really nice, thank you.

For trans-editor

<$edit-text tiddler=<<tiddler2edit>> class="full-width"/>


<style>
.full-width {width: 100%;}
</style>

Birthe

[Vytas]

Stephan,

thank you for supplying such a nice reply! This is probably the way I would like to move along. 

To improve my knowledge of TiddlyWiki, I'm trying to understand the code pieces you supplied. 

I believe, I more or less understand it, except for the exact way how the variable <<currentTiddler>> is being used. 

If I get it correctly, TiddlyWiki code is, in some sense, being run continuously, and whenever it finds itself at the place of 

{{[[A]][[B]][[C]]||trans-edit}}

it brings the titles A, B and C as values to the "trans-edit" piece of code, which then provides the listing of the edit-buttons together with the content of the A, B and C tiddlers.

However, what is happening when the the code of "trans-edit" is being run independently, that is, when there are no tiddler titles provided for the filter operator in the "trans-edit" tiddler? Do I understand it correctly, that, in this case, the value of <<currentTiddler>> is "trans-edit" and that is why the "trans-edit" tiddler tries to include itself into itself and the result is: "Recursive transclusion error in transclude widget", which I see in the view-window of "trans-edit"? 

Is it alright to see this error or could it be somehow avoided?

By the way, is it correct, that the fact that "the code of tiddlers is being run continuously", is responsible for the thing, that it will never be possible to edit tiddlers from the EDIT-window of some other tiddler, that is, you have to have a button to run the editting only once (and not continuously)?

  

[JD]

This is really cool! 

I'd go with the reveal-widget (instead of a modal) to edit the paragraphs in place, unless there's a con to that method?

[Mark S.]

That's a great idea! It would be helpful if it opened "taller" as well.

-- Mark

[Mark S.]

I had no idea that you could apply a template to more than one tiddler at a time. Is this in the documentation some place?

Thanks!
-- Mark

[Stephan Hradek]

Am Samstag, 7. April 2018 14:56:19 UTC+2 schrieb Vytas:

{{[[A]][[B]][[C]]||trans-edit}}

it brings the titles A, B and C as values to the "trans-edit" piece of code,

Nope. It brings "[[A]][[B]][[C]]" as one tiddler title (in <<currentTiddler>>) to trans-edit.
 

which then provides the listing of the edit-buttons together with the content of the A, B and C tiddlers.

The <$list> in trans-edit uses the currentTiddler title as a filter, thus interpreting our string "[[A]][[B]][[C]]"  as being the 3 tiddler titles A, B and C.
 

However, what is happening when the the code of "trans-edit" is being run independently, that is, when there are no tiddler titles provided for the filter operator in the "trans-edit" tiddler? Do I understand it correctly, that, in this case, the value of <<currentTiddler>> is "trans-edit" and that is why the "trans-edit" tiddler tries to include itself into itself and the result is: "Recursive transclusion error in transclude widget", which I see in the view-window of "trans-edit"?

That's correct.

 

 Is it alright to see this error or could it be somehow avoided?

If I'm not mistaken ths is okay and can be seen with some standard templates in TW5 itself.
 

By the way, is it correct, that the fact that "the code of tiddlers is being run continuously", is responsible for the thing, that it will never be possible to edit tiddlers from the EDIT-window of some other tiddler, that is, you have to have a button to run the editting only once (and not continuously)?

No. This is because the edit tiddler simply is not prepared for this. You could create your own edit window, maybe, which could doe stuff like this.

 

  

[Stephan Hradek]

Am Samstag, 7. April 2018 17:06:12 UTC+2 schrieb JD:

This is really cool! 

I'd go with the reveal-widget (instead of a modal) to edit the paragraphs in place, unless there's a con to that method?

I didn't use reveal because I got the feeling that it'll be too much code. But I might be wrong.

[Stephan Hradek]

Am Samstag, 7. April 2018 19:27:14 UTC+2 schrieb Mark S.:

I had no idea that you could apply a template to more than one tiddler at a time. Is this in the documentation some place?

See my reply above: I simply provide just one tiddler title, which happens to look like 3, to trans-edit. The usage of this title as a filter results in the interpretation of this title as neing 3 tiddlers.

So no: It's not in the documentation because it need not be ;)

[Mark S.]

It's a very clever re-factoring of existing abilities, though. Maybe an additional example in the "templates" part of the documentation would be in order.

Thanks!
Mark

[Diego Mesa]

I'd like to pause for a second here - this could be a really really cool way to mirror something like wikipedia's edit capabilities where you can edit sections of something. 

[zemoxian]

This sounds similar to slices in TW2.

I used to add slices like

Description: description of tiddler

Then just the description could be transcluded in other tiddlers.  You could also transcluded sections using header titles.  The slices functionality seems to have been moved to data tiddlers in TW5 and section references removed all together.

Slices were a little awkward to work with sometimes. If you didn't want them visible in text you had to put them inside comments.  Same with sections.  OTOH, this allowed you to put multiple templates in the same tiddler and reference them individually.  This is sort of like TW5 plugin functionality, I guess.

I sort of took a break from TiddlyWiki between the transition from TW2 and TW5 so my TW2 knowledge is hazy now.  I suppose there are pros nd cons to both methods.

[Mat]

Stephan - terrific stuff!

Mark S. wrote:

It's a very clever re-factoring of existing abilities, though. Maybe an additional example in the "templates" part of the documentation would be in order.

Not sure it is a "re-factoring" as much as an understanding: I thought the prerequisite for a {{A||B}} was that the A is an existing tiddler, i.e that the template transclusion "started" with tiddler A and then applied template B to it. But apparently it can be a missing tiddler, i.e really a just a string [of characters], because the template transclusion starts with the template B and applies [the string] A to it. This is not clear in the docs, AFAIK.

...but even with this knowledge it is extremely clever of Stephan to realize it could be used in that context!

More general solution

Considering how A B C are intended as sub-sections for some tiddler (lets call it "myarticle"), then instead of hard coding the sub-sections, i.e

{{[[A]] [[B]] [[C]]||trans-edit}}

you can have the sub-section tiddlers tagged "myarticle" and do something like this:

\define transedit() {{$(taggedcurr)$||trans-edit}}

<$set name=taggedcurr filter="[tag<currentTiddler>]">

<<transedit>>

</$set>

Then, to almost automatically create articles, put this in a conditional viewtemplate. This means that all (and only) tiddlers tagged e.g "article" will show the sub-section aggregation.

<:-)

[zemoxian]

You could combine a navigator widget with a list widget and a couple of templates to manipulate multiple tiddlers from one tiddler.  This is actually how the story works in the PageTemplate.  I've done this in the past while fiddling with stuff.  The navigator widget handles manipulation of the story tiddler by handling messages from buttons on the view and edit templates for the sub tiddlers.  You can create, edit, delete, save, etc.  You can also create buttons with list operations to sort or reorder the tiddlers. (I.e. move up 1, move down 1, move to top, move to bottom, etc.)  So, it is possible to keep each sub tiddler as a single paragraph with its own title, tags, and fields and reorder them as needed.  It just depends on what features you want for a particular story editing app. It is a little tedious creating an app like this because you need to create the various templates and buttons, etc.

[zemoxian]

Here's a barebones template to start from:

 

<$navigator story="PE:story" history="PE:history">

{{$:/core/ui/Buttons/new-tiddler}}

<$list filter="[list[PE:story]]" template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate" editTemplate="$:/core/ui/EditTemplate" emptyMessage={{$:/config/EmptyStoryMessage}} />

</$navigator>

 You can create custom templates to replace $:/core/ui/EditTemplate and $:/core/ui/EditTemplate with simpler templates with the required functionality.

 

For example the view template could be as simple as:

 

<div>

{{||$:/core/ui/Buttons/edit}}

{{||move-up button}} {{||move-down button}}

<div><$view field=title /></div>

<div>

<$transclude />

</div>

</div>

 The move-up and down buttons would allow you to move paragraphs or sections up and down.

[JD]

I hastily created a wordy little macro that does the same thing, before I read your post, and now I feel stupid lol 

Still, I created a demo for the "paragraphs" macro, as seen here http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/

But the navigator widget(?) method does look cleaner

EDIT: corrected URL

[Stephan Hradek]

Am Sonntag, 8. April 2018 03:57:11 UTC+2 schrieb Mat:

Then, to almost automatically create articles, put this in a conditional viewtemplate. This means that all (and only) tiddlers tagged e.g "article" will show the sub-section aggregation.

… With the downside that you are not able to define their sequence.

You would need to have a field in each tiddler which would define the order in which to transclude them and put a sort into your filter.

But I think you're making it too complicated.

Remember what I wrote? The "3 tiddler" are just one string which is used as a filter. So why not use your filter instead of using the filter to create a string and then using that string again as a filter? Want to try? Put trans-edit again into tiddlywiki.com and create atiddler with this contents:

{{
[tag[TableOfContents]]
||
trans-edit
}}

Still: There is no order. You would need an order field in each tiddler and then you could use something like:

{{
[tag[TableOfContents]sort[orderfield]]
||
trans-edit
}}

 

[Mat]

Stephan Hradek wrote:

But I think you're making it too complicated. 

Remember what I wrote? The "3 tiddler" are just one string which is used as a filter. So why not use your filter instead of using the filter to create a string and then using that string again as a filter? Want to try? Put trans-edit again into tiddlywiki.com and create atiddler with this contents:

DOH! Brilliance again! Haha!!!

<:-)

[Mat]

Interrim step (at least for what I'm aiming for)

\define qualstate() <<qualify "$:/statet/$(theTiddler)$">>

\define transedit()

<$set name=currlist value="[tag<currentTiddler>]">

<$list filter=<<currlist>> variable="theTiddler">

<$wikify name=state text=<<qualstate>>>

<$reveal type="nomatch" state=<<state>> text="show">

<$button class="tc-btn-invisible tc-tiddlylink" set=<<state>> setTo="show">{{$:/core/images/edit-button}}

</$button><$transclude tiddler=<<theTiddler>> />

</$reveal>

<$reveal type="match" state=<<state>> text="show">

<$button set=<<state>> setTo="hide" class="tc-btn-invisible tc-tiddlylink">{{$:/core/images/edit-button}}

</$button>

<$edit-text tiddler=<<theTiddler>>/>

</$reveal>

</$wikify>

</$list>

</$set>

\end

My intention is to style the editor as per Birthes note above but also the edit button so that it floats on the left rather than in the text area and so that this button only shows when hovering the text section. Make the edit icon faint until section hover.

Actually, this is beginning to resemble one of my zillion unpublished projects, humbly called SuperTiddlers (unpublished because it is not ready, as you'll note if you go there). The concept consists of several ideas, but the mainthing is to transclude other tiddlers into one but also in edit mode with editors for those other tiddlers. One particular idea is to apply this to split up stylesheets instead of having the current monolithic mammoth. But overall the purpose is to assemble linear narrative tiddlers. BTW that project was a while ago so there may be other less relevant bits there also. It was intended for a more full conceptual 'edition'.

<:-)

[Vytas]

Stephan, thank you for replying to my questions!

zemoxian, your "barebones template" seems to be easy, but contains a lot!

JD, your paragraphs macro looks really nice. I find it very convenient, the way the edit-window replaces the view-window of the paragraph and at the same time you retain the view of all the other paragraphs!

Now, there is for me a lot to learn: navigator and reveal widgets, custom edit/view templates, usage of buttons and so on. Wonderful!   

[David Gifford]

This is so cool I just added it to the TiddlyWiki toolmap under 'Writing and editing - transclusion'

[JD]

Hey thanks! 

I think this is similar to Mat's concept! I'm looking forward to his SuperTiddlers release 🤩

[JD]

Thanks Vytas! You might want to update your copy of the macro.

I just added an action to the save and cancel buttons that will automatically delete the temporary tiddlers created. 

for your reference: http://j.d.paragraphs.tiddlyspot.com/

[TonyM]

JD,

I just tried this and it is very helpful. Thanks for the demo.

I just applied it to a list of issues (items tagged Issues) and realised It would be helpful to list the sub tiddlers.

I have more ideas and some ideas about how to approach it, if you were to develop it further but as you say this conversation is already under way.

It seems a somewhat simpler approach is down this path.

Regards

Tony

[JD]

Hey Tony, I was thinking of adding "subtiddler" as another optional parameter, then going along these lines:

<$list filter="$filter$" variable="parItem">
<$transclude tiddler=<<parItem>> subtiddler="$subtiddler$"/>
</$list>

As you can see, I'm not quite imaginative enough to think of more than that 😅. Please do share your ideas, and use the code present on the demo site to build something better (we can build them together, too, I just don't know how collabs work).

I'm also still mulling over using the Navigator widget, which requires the creation of additional tiddlers, with the absolute pro of not having to rely on temporary tiddlers... 🤔

[TonyM]

JD,

Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are somewhat hijacking the thread?

Of note is I am using filters such as "[tag[WhitePaper]]" where it would be nice to either include all tiddlers tagged by the tiddlers that are tagged by WhitePaper like the Table of Contents macro

I think there would be value being able to specify more than one filter as you suggest.

For the moment I am just thinking will the second filter be wrapped inside the first?

Imagine filter1 filter2 filter3 = chapter section paragraph

So when listing paragraphs we only want to be listing those with the same chapter and section

And ideally each filter will provide the sort order.

I will return to this soon.

Tony

[Stephan Hradek]

Am Dienstag, 10. April 2018 02:17:59 UTC+2 schrieb TonyM:

JD,

Should we be using a new thread to collaborate otherwise we are somewhat hijacking the thread?

Isn't this something for the TiddlyWikiDev group?

[TonyM]

Stephen,

I suppose in some ways it could be but given this can be done with macros not plugins and not Javascript it is more likely to provide info regular users can use.

Of late even some serious technical issues that I would have thought belonged in the Dev group can be found here.

Regards

Tony

[JD]

Hi Tony, you mean, like a full-blown outline, right? 

If that's so, I think, maybe, we can use the TOC template for this. And instead of transcluding the title, we transclude the body of the text (while still following the tag-tree structure). What do you think? 

My contribution in this will be slow during the weekdays (9 - 5 job + lots of overtime gets in the way)

This is exciting stuff. I'm thinking of using this to write a novelette. 

[David Gifford]

Seems like a lot of effort when there are better tools for writing and outlining, like Dynalist or Workflowy.

David Gifford

Mexico team leader, Mexico City

Resonate Global Mission
Engaging People. Embracing Christ.
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org

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[JD]

Haha! 😅 Oh well... sometimes the tool creation is as exciting as the use of the tool itself, at least for me. I get to know Tiddlywiki more with all these toying around.

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[Mark S.]

Workflowy looks like it decided to rest on it's laurels before it had any.

For the price of Dynalist, you could get two subscriptions to Evernote.

None of the cloud-based services seem to promise client-side encryption.

An outlining tool built on TW might be the killer app (edition) for TW that everyone keeps talking about.  I've started on my own "TWFlowy" once or twice, built on the TOC macro. Someone who knew what they were doing could probably come up with something really nice, with the security of local files and the flexibility of TW.

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[Diego Mesa]

I 100% agree with you Mark that a Dynalist built into TW would be a killer app. I also think the same about Anki, and am working with Simon to achieve that as well! 

If we could get one or two killer, easy to use and easy to follow "applications" built into TW like that, I think it will do much to bring TW to a much larger audience. 

On a related note, I have personally built a Paper/Reference management system into TW that I am happy with, and have in the back of my mind to distil into a plugin/edition for demonstration as well.

[Mark S.]

I'm not as convinced with Anki. Anki is already free, open-source, and well-written. Your data may be kept in the cloud, but unless you're a spy no one is going to be interested in your language study progress.

How about a bookmark app that you could take with you? Especially if it were possible to capture and store small thumbprints of web-pages.

-- Mark

[Diego Mesa]

Mark, 

I remember we had this conversation on another thread when I brought up Anki as well lol. I'd summarize that, IMO, if you buy into the TW philosophy that its your external brain - that you place all information that is somewhat important to you into TW - it only makes sense that it would have some mechanism to help you remember certain key pieces. 

Add onto that that its completely open source and lets you completely customize what any "card"/question can act and look like, it seems like a no-brainer to me!

Diego

[TonyM]

JD,

I am not sure about the full blown part, but outline yes.

This difficulty between composing large texts and the tiddler as the basic unit is a common stumbling block for newbies, until they understand the model they do create large tiddlers, then come to the forum asking questions how to deal with large tiddlers.

It makes sense we have a solution already made for authors of larger content that also encourages use of the tiddler and structuring that data. Personally unless we do this a lot of users will not even see how powerful it is to divide and organise there data or documents. Outlining is the minimum structure we need to support large documents.

I agree on using the TableOfContents model or similar, I would like to see a check box or setting that hides and shows tiddler names, edit links, tags and perhaps even author notes. SOne of those settings will show it in a way it can be printed and another so that open in new window is a valid way to monitor the whole documents progress while working on its parts.  Further ease of reordering is also important, and a preview plugins so you can see content of tiddlers from links also makes sense.

When users can author paragraphs and a paragraphs or section "is a tiddler" then collaborative documents is a possibility with all the features than can be applied to tiddler management becoming available.

Regards

Tony

[TonyM]

David,

I understand the value in picking the tool you need but I think this may actually be a gap we need to fill in TiddlyWiki. Even a rudimentary outliner, to help bridge the gap between tiddler and texts (in the book sense).

Regards

Tony

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[JD]

Hey Tony, I'm going to run with your ideas and have started to play around with the TOC macros...!

[Mark S.]

I should probably post this in a separate thread, "TW-Flowy"

This version works mostly. Create a global macro tiddler and insert:

\define tagascurrent() [[$(currentTiddler)$]]
\define draft() Draft of '$(currentTiddler)$'
\define draftcreated() Draft of '$(currentTiddler)$'!!created
\define drafttrans() {{Draft of '$(currentTiddler)$'||$:/core/ui/EditTemplate}}
\define toc-tabbed-external-nav2(tag,sort:"",selectedTiddler:"$:/temp/toc/selectedTiddler",unselectedText,missingText,template:"")
<$tiddler tiddler={{$selectedTiddler$}}>
<div class="tc-tabbed-table-of-contents">
<$linkcatcher to="$selectedTiddler$">
<div class="tc-table-of-contents">
<$macrocall $name="toc-selective-expandable" tag="""$tag$""" sort="""$sort$""" itemClassFilter=<<toc-tabbed-selected-item-filter selectedTiddler:"""$selectedTiddler$""">>/>
</div>
</$linkcatcher>
<div class="tc-tabbed-table-of-contents-content">
<$reveal state="""$selectedTiddler$""" type="nomatch" text="">
<$navigator story="story" history="history" openLinkFromInsideRiver="top">

<$list filter="[all[current]]" >
<$reveal state=<<draftcreated>> type="nomatch" text="">
<<drafttrans>>
</$reveal>
<$reveal state=<<draftcreated>> type="match" text="">
{{||$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate}}
<$button>
<$action-createtiddler $basetitle={{$:/newitem}} tags=<<tagascurrent>> $savetitle="""$selectedTiddler$""" />
New child</$button>&nbsp;<$edit-text tiddler="$:/newitem" tag="input" size="30" default="Child name here" placeholder="Child name here"/>
</$reveal>
</$list>

</$navigator>
</$reveal>
<$reveal state="""$selectedTiddler$""" type="match" text="">
$unselectedText$
</$reveal>
</div>
</div>
</$tiddler>
\end

Then invoke, for instance if your top tag was "Root":

<$macrocall
    $name="toc-tabbed-external-nav2"
    tag="Root"
    selectedTiddler="$:/temp/toc/selectedTiddler"
    unselectedText="<p>Select a topic in the table of contents. Click the arrow to expand a topic.</p>"
    missingText="<p>Missing tiddler.</p>"
template="$:/core/ui/ViewTemplate"
/>

Note that it is called "toc-tabbed-external-nav2". Below is an example of it in action.

There are anomalies. I haven't worked out the CSS, so you'll probably need to have your TW in full-column mode. You need to use the button and field at the bottom of each item rather than the "New Here" button. Changing the tiddler name will cause you to lose your place in the tree structure.

This requires latest version of TW (actually, might be able to get away with 5.1.14, not sure) As always, be sure to have your TW backed up before trying this.

Have fun,
Mark

[David Gifford]

Hi Mark

Sorry to be the sourpuss on this one.

1) Unless I am mistaken, this doesn't improve that much on using the new here button with the table of contents. You just title the child tiddler before creating, whereas with the new here button you do the same in the opposite order. It is slightly easier to grasp for newbies, though.

2) I don't think this will scale in TiddlyWiki like it does in Dynalist or Workflowy.

3) The children are not present when opening the tiddler the way child notes are visible when zooming in to a node in Dynalist and Workflowy.

4) What makes Dynalist and Workflowy so appealing is that every paragraph of text is a separate node that can be reordered. And you can zoom into any level of the outline to focus on that level.

I don't write this to be nitpicky or negative. I just don't want to see you wasting your time trying to make TiddlyWiki into an outliner. I don't see that it could compete, but then Dynalist and Worklowy can't compete with TiddlyWiki in many areas.

I am a fan of both TiddlyWiki and Dynalist, and tend to use both daily. I tend to write notes and organize my thoughts and tasks in Dynalist, and use TiddlyWiki for indexing and the creation of static htmls for web publishing.

BTW, while the Dynalist Pro version is a little pricey, as some have noted, the free version is pretty generous (whereas Workflowy is stingy) and Dynalist contains most of the features most people would want, unless they are working with images and attachments.

David Gifford

Mexico team leader, Mexico City

Resonate Global Mission
Engaging People. Embracing Christ.
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org

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[Mark S.]

On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 6:07:55 PM UTC-7, David Gifford wrote:

1) Unless I am mistaken, this doesn't improve that much on using the new here button with the table of contents. You just title the child tiddler before creating, whereas with the new here button you do the same in the opposite order. It is slightly easier to grasp for newbies, though.

If it's working correctly, when you make the new tiddler it should appear inside the TOC "tree". If it's appearing outside the tree then you are probably using a slightly older version of TW. With this mechanism, you could quickly make the outline of whatever text you are preparing, drilling down layer by layer.
 

2) I don't think this will scale in TiddlyWiki like it does in Dynalist or Workflowy.

I think many people would be able to get along with a couple thousand entries, and I expect it to scale to that.

 

3) The children are not present when opening the tiddler the way child notes are visible when zooming in to a node in Dynalist and Workflowy.

Guess I'd have to take another look at WF and DYN.
 

4) What makes Dynalist and Workflowy so appealing is that every paragraph of text is a separate node that can be reordered. And you can zoom into any level of the outline to focus on that level.

Opening and closing the branches of the tree, you can get some level of granularity and focus. Obviously one guy working a few hours on a project can't do as much as entire teams of programmers. I'm sort of thinking it might inspire someone to take it to the next level.

 

I don't write this to be nitpicky or negative. I just don't want to see you wasting your time trying to make TiddlyWiki into an outliner. I don't see that it could compete, but then Dynalist and Worklowy can't compete with TiddlyWiki in many areas.

Let me try Diego Mesa's argument on you:

...if you buy into the TW philosophy that its your external brain - that you place all information that is somewhat important to you into TW - it only makes sense that it would have some mechanism to help you remember certain key pieces.

For me, Dynalist and WF are no-goes because they can't work offline. OK, I guess DL has a windows app, but it's kind of nice to get away from app's. Their Android apps unfortunately do not work on my aging mobile devices. I think images are important, and neither work with images without adding money.

Overall though, this was just an experiment. I probably won't take it further unless some interest is expressed. Meanwhile I'll be looking with interest at what zemoxian, JD and the others come up with.

Thanks!
Mark

[Vytas]

@JD

In the process of enabling myself to customize your wonderful paragraphs macro, I have analysed the code of it (actually, since I'm a newbie, it took me a decent amount of effort). I'm glad I was able to more or less understand it. Just one small question. If I get it correctly, you don't need "textarea" in the following:

<style>
 textarea.full-width { width: 100%; height: auto; }

?

EXTRA QUESTION. By the way, what is considered to be a "good practice" regarding the state tiddlers? I have noticed, that whenever you use RevealWidget you create those state tiddlers which are not removed automatically. I imagine that the amount of those state tiddlers can become really large (especially if you use RevealWidget inside of <$list>..</$list> ). Is there a way to delete state tiddlers automatically or should it be done, from time to time, with some delete macro?

------------

@Mark S.

I've just tried your toc-tabbed-external-nav2 macro (it will take time for me to understand the internals of your code). I like the essential functions your macro provides! Clearly, it needs some refining (e.g., now, when you select a tiddler in the left menu, it takes too much horizontal space and hides some of the sidebar, which is on the right). However, overall, I like how it enables you to navigate through tiddlers having some specific tag, and lets you create "child tiddlers"!

--------------

@David Gifford

If you do not use TiddlyWiki for note-taking, could you elaborate on what exactly you mean by "indexing" and how you use TW for it? 

I am no specialist, but aren't there more polished apps for "creation of static htmls for web publishing"? By this, I would try to argue that, as there are well-polished apps for note-taking (your mentioned ones and others), there might as well be more polished apps for "indexing" and, particularly, for "web publishing".

----------------------

  

I agree that essential advantages of TiddlyWiki are the following:

• It is free.
• You possess your TiddlyWiki file and are independent of some specific company's cloud services.
• You can modify tools created by others! You can create your own tools! You can change both the appearance and the functions of YOUR Wiki.
• You have a willing to help community!

If you get deep into the TiddlyWiki language of filters, transclusions and macros, why not then use it for note-taking and, actually, shape/modernize the way you approach the note-taking itself?!

Overall, I could not be happier with the variety and quality of responses in this thread. This shows not only that the community is willing to help, but also that note-taking tools which collect, sort and present separate but related pieces of information are very relevant for a lot of people!

Thank you!

Vytas   

[Mat]

Side note: One major point with TW is "the next 25 years" i.e that TW relies on very basic tech so your data will still be easily accessible for quite some time. When you bring in Dynalist and other services you are, AFAICT, back out on the same ol' thin ice that many of us try to leave behind after having been burnt. Or am I missing sth?

<:-)

[TonyM]

One persons note book is anothers data collection repository and tiddlywiki then lets you analyse, structure, automate, turn into a database, refactor, print, define custom views, import export, extend, parse.....

Notebooks are so last millenium. Notebooks are dead, long live the notebook (in tw).

Tony

[David Gifford]

Hi Mark, Vytas, and others

Thanks for the responses. My comment last night was not meant to criticize you, Mark, or your effort. I probably shouldn't post after 10pm, as it can come out wrong. My comment wasn't meant to be hate for what you did, but love for outliners. After years of notetaking in T-dub, creating numerous, probably around 50, different adaptations (yes, Vytas, I have done that extensively for years), outliners were like an epiphany for me, absolutely liberating. They let me get back to focusing on the content rather than on the mechanics. I was constantly saying to myself, "You mean I can just indent instead of having to add various levels of asterisks? You mean every item, whether a section, a paragraph or image, is its own webpage with an URL I can share? You mean images can just be dragged in rather than uploading them somewhere and then creating a tiddler with an image link? You mean if I want to reorder paragraphs in my article or outline or list or table of contents, I can just drag them? Wow!" These were the kinds of discoveries that made me excited about outliners.

So even considering going to T-dub for outlining feels like going back to jail. I use T-dub for the things it does well, and it does many things really well. So I use it a lot. Every day. But when I hear people in this forum turn their nose up at Dynalist - and I am not saying you did, but others have - it just sounds like ignorant prejudice from TiddlyWiki diehards, because I have found outliners liberating.

Your attempt, valiant as it is, reminds me of one of my many attempts from 2014 - http://giffmex.org/experiments/obadiah.html#Table%20of%20contents. The new here button in conjunction with the toc feature seems to already do what you are doing. And it is great to a point. So I remember the excitement you are feeling at your success. All I am saying is that 1) there are limits. Scale is a killer, especially when tags, and lists based on tags, are involved. And it looks like tags are used for your toc as they were with mine. 2) And let's not pretend that TW could ever become an outliner-killer. You could refine this and hone this so that it is 500% or 1000% better, and it would still not do what an outliner does. And that is not a put down - it does not make your project less valuable or awesome for TiddlyWiki. In saying this I am trying to affirm Vytas' reply to me. I agree.

Most of Dynalist's best features are free, but I pay for Dynalist pro because I benefit greatly from its value and it is worth it to me - I am online almost all the time, I do a lot of writing and organizing, and I deal with a large number of interrelated topics. I was an early adopter, so I have a discount. I do not pay 'double what it costs for Evernote', as someone put it. So my case is distinct. I realize not everyone would find it as helpful or cost-efficient. I am not trying to convert anyone from T-dub. Though TiddlyWiki is free, I try to 'pay' for it by creating resources like the TiddlyWiki toolmap to show my gratitude. I have probably paid with my time spent on shared projects for TiddlyWiki far more than I pay in money for Dynalist.

One last note, @Mat: with Dynalist I can download a backup in plain text and opml with one button. And I fear more for TW over 25 years. Browser restrictions have already affected TW greatly. Who says they won't do so more in the future?

Blessings to all. I enjoy the discussion and everyone's comments. Just trying to give a different perspective.

David Gifford

Mexico team leader, Mexico City

Resonate Global Mission
Engaging People. Embracing Christ.
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org

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[JD]

On Sunday, April 15, 2018 at 7:53:48 PM UTC+9, Vytas wrote:

@JD

In the process of enabling myself to customize your wonderful paragraphs macro, I have analysed the code of it (actually, since I'm a newbie, it took me a decent amount of effort). I'm glad I was able to more or less understand it. Just one small question. If I get it correctly, you don't need "textarea" in the following:

<style>
 textarea.full-width { width: 100%; height: auto; }

?

Hi Vytas, 

It's great that you're using this to learn about markup! TW is how I learned this stuff as well. For the CSS, yeah, you're right, you can actually remove the "textarea" from "textarea.full-width { properties }" , if there's no need for too much specificity.

Another way to write it would be  ".full-width textarea { properties }" 

 

EXTRA QUESTION. By the way, what is considered to be a "good practice" regarding the state tiddlers? I have noticed, that whenever you use RevealWidget you create those state tiddlers which are not removed automatically. I imagine that the amount of those state tiddlers can become really large (especially if you use RevealWidget inside of <$list>..</$list> ). Is there a way to delete state tiddlers automatically or should it be done, from time to time, with some delete macro?

------------

I haven't really thought about automatically deleting state tiddlers, but you're right that the amount would gradually grow. I only ever thought of deleting the temp tiddlers lol 

I will insert this line within the macro, after the actions to delete the temp tiddlers for the "commit changes" and "discard changes" buttons:

<$action-deletetiddler $tiddler=<<stateEditTid>>/>

If you're still using this macro, please update your copy. I corrected the Yes-No reveals to accommodate for the above change, and also updated the buttons so they will no longer set the statetiddler to "no" when it will be deleted anyways :)

you can use a service like https://text-compare.com/ to see the differences

EDIT: added link

[zemoxian]

I played around a bit and came up with a little demo.

http://zemox.tiddlyspot.com/#PE%3Aparagraph%20edit

Probably a bit more complicated than needed.  But you can edit and rearrange a list of sub-tiddlers.

If I were to make 1 addition it would be an editor toolbar.

Edit: One thing I don't get is the links.  It doesn't scroll to the sub-tiddlers.  Also, Not sure how to navigate out of the main tiddler since the navigator widget catches the links.  A second, display tiddler could help with that.

On Saturday, April 7, 2018 at 11:05:45 PM UTC-4, zemoxian wrote:

[David Gifford]

Wow this is a fascinating concept. FYI there is a link, " Here is a tiddler linked to from another:. New Tiddler 1 ", and clicking it does nothing.

David Gifford

Mexico team leader, Mexico City

Resonate Global Mission
Engaging People. Embracing Christ.
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 11:34 PM, zemoxian <zemo...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 7:21:21 AM UTC-4, Vytas wrote:

Hello TiddlyWiki enthusiasts,

I have recently discovered TiddlyWiki and here I have question: 

Is it in principle possible to somehow tag selected paragraphs of a text within a tiddler, so that it would be later possible to transclude all the paragraphs associated with a specific tag? 

Let's say, I write a journal with one tiddler per day, and in any given journal tiddler I write about various topics. For a given topic, the goal would be to create a new tiddler composed of all the paragraphs from different tiddlers associated with that topic. Is it possible to achieve something like this without having to create, for each topic, a separate tiddler everyday?

Warm regards,

Vytas

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[David Gifford]

I added this to the toolmap, under 'Writing and editing - transclusion' (see https://dynalist.io/d/zUP-nIWu2FFoXH-oM7L7d9DM)