Consider renaming TiddlyWiki

[bimlas]

Continuation of the https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/MKVwkEmCimQ thread.

In a nutshell: TiddlyWiki is gaining popularity because it appears in more articles and podcasts, but most of the time they smile at its name, so it doesn't seem to be taken seriously (although at the end of the test they usually praise the software itself). The name TiddlyWiki may hinder its distribution, so we should consider renaming it.

[David]

Yeah, I've just started using it to track some projects at work.  Saying the name to most co-workers does give me a twinge of embarrassment.

[Mohammad]

Absolutely yes!

In previous thread some people stated that Tiddlywiki has some other barriers like saving and we need to focus on them and changing the name has no priority or has no effect on such issues

While I respect those opinions and I believe to work on those area, but keeping the current name also does not help!

So, I support to change the name.

--Mohammad

[Julio Peña]

Hello all,

I'll try my best to phrase my thoughts.

I've already seen some name samples

 thrown out there in the other thread.

All we have to do is keep those creative juices 

flowing until we hit on something everyone agrees upon:)

In order to pick out a name one would 

have to ponder the software (or platforms') attributes.

1. single html file

2. many plugins already available

3. adaptable to many environments

4. lively community

5. steady development for the foreseeable future

6. etc. [much more]

Those are just my thoughts.

I think TiddlyWiki is mature enough for a name change.

I would definitely support it.

On a personal level, however, name means nothing to me as I value 

functionality over nomenclatures.

I mean, as it is TiddlyWiki, is already a great note taking software!

All the best,

Julio

[Mat]

Julio Peña wrote:

All we have to do is keep those creative juices 

flowing until we hit on something everyone agrees upon:)

Actually, it's probably wiser to *not* do this unless Jeremy actually requests suggestions which he, AFAIK, hasn't. It is very tempting to spin away about new names (I'm a sinner myself) but in the end this is not a consensus issue, just like you are the sole baptizer of your macros or, for that matter, a TW fork.

<:-)

[Julio Peña]

Hey there Mat,

Oh noooo, you are 1000% correct!

I would never suggest to go over anyone's head. Heavens forbid.

I was just stating for the eventuality of such.

It's why I stated at the beginning that I was trying to phrase my 

thoughts the best I could.

Many blessings,

Julio

[@magasine]

Folks,

I have followed this topic.

As described in TiddlyWiki: "(...) The fundamental idea is that information is more useful and reusable if we cut it up into the smallest semantically meaningful chunks (...)"

This describes the value of modularity, which is intrinsic in its construction, and demonstrated in the cards (tiddlers).

Possibly, an evolution in its nomemclature, could consider this aspect of originality.

In informatics, the smallest unit of information is the bit, and the smallest building modules are bytes.

So, it is worth exploring a range of possibilities, if we consider this analogy about information units.

Just to play with the suggestions here are a few, which preserve the radical name of Wiki:

- WikiBits

- WikiCards

- WikiConnector

- WikiModule

- etc.

Greetings,

Manoel

[Handoko Suwono]

Hi Julio, A good summary of what TW can do. 

I think we all should wait renaming until another revision is going to uphold. It's like TW classic being updated to TW5 which was then a major revision (but no series of nicknames as the Apple iOS does). Ever since I believe many people are still using the classic version. TW5 should have been renamed back then.

So it's much better to wait until the next major revision (TWx or TW6) is coming and giving a new name and nickname as a start. It's a pretty common thing to use nicks in projects.

handoko -

[David Gifford]

Rustonotes. End of discussion.

[David Gifford]

No, wait, ZettelRuston.

[TonyM]

As stated before I think we could start with calling it 

The TiddlyWiki Platform

because this removes its "Diminutive nature" while keeping its unique word and making it seem greater than a single idea, it is after all a platform on which you can build almost anything.

No rename needed (yet)

Regards

Tony

[CJ Veniot]

I'm of the mindset that renaming a product causes all kinds of headaches.

There is such a wonderful wealth of information about TiddlyWiki on the web.  Change the name of a product, and searching the web for resources starts to break down.

Similar story:  I'm a big fan of the Seagull M4 (previously called the Seagull "Merlin").  When Godin Guitars changed the name, we'd have folk talking about the M4, others talking about Merlin, often folk would refer to the instrument with both names (like "Merlin/M4").  Huge pain in the rear.

I can imagine loads of folk snicker at "TiddlyWiki", but from my experience since 2006 trying to convince folk at work to setup an internal wiki, nobody took me seriously because of the word "wiki".  Flash forward 14 years, and I still can't convince folk at work to use internal wikis (despite the awesome one I've put together for my work) ... they prefer a mess of OneNote files.  Bleurk.

Maybe it might make more sense to have TiddlyWiki as-is, but maybe keep TiddlyWiki as a "community edition", and have an exact copy of it re-badged for marketing purposes (a "professional edition")?  With a name that doesn't have either "Tiddly" or "Wiki" in it?  I suppose "Tiddler" would also need renaming?

[David Gifford]

Hi Tony,

Font-size

is not a legitimate argument.

And I doubt the platform idea is sufficient for some here. Putting 'platform' after, say, Tinky Winky, does not make it sound less ridiculous. And I think there are some here who would say the same about TiddlyWiki. Some of us like myself are so accustomed to the word Tiddlywiki because we have been using it for well over a decade. So we don't feel that force. But in my case, I start by telling colleagues I have made some helpful software tools, and this piques their interest and respect. But that gets negated for some reason when I utter the name TiddlyWiki. The word platform behind it will not make it sound more respectable to them. And this is when I am trying to get them to discover a tool that will directly benefit them.

[David Gifford]

Maybe it might make more sense to have TiddlyWiki as-is, but maybe keep TiddlyWiki as a "community edition", and have an exact copy of it re-badged for marketing purposes (a "professional edition")?  With a name that doesn't have either "Tiddly" or "Wiki" in it?  I suppose "Tiddler" would also need renaming?

This is exactly what I was trying to say in the previous thread, and I got laughed at...I still think this is the best way to go. SomethingSomething as a wrapper for audiences not familiar with TiddlyWiki, and good old TiddlyWiki, name and all, for the community and search results, etc. The SomethingSomething could even display that it is 'powered by TiddlyWiki'.

[Suzanne McHale]

For myself, I am fine with the TiddlyWiki name - never saw any problem with it!

[TonyM]

David,

The TiddlyWiki Platform was emphasised because until you, there was no response positive or negative to my suggestion. Looks like you proved the font size helped.:)

I am happy to agree to disagree, but I pride myself on being able to place myself in the position of a naive observer, What caught my attention originally was "non-linear personal web notebook", specifically "personal notebook" which I happened to be looking for at the time, but I found something much broader. Had I being looking for something else I may not have found it.

If I knew what I know now, but did not know about tiddlywiki, and I was looking for something like tiddlywiki, I expect I would search for "Open source Web Application development platform". We do not appear there now. 

If I were IT naive I may have searched for notebook organiser, website in a file and other keywords GTD todo etc..perhaps then personal software development

There is no doubt tiddlywiki is the best search string you can have once you know what it is.  Before you discover it, it is has little, or no, or even negative value to finding it.

The most important point to my example makes is "rather than rename, strengthen the meaning with often repeated and related words".

If I told a business client, as I do that I will build the solution on an Platform called tiddlywiki then they went to search for "tiddlywiki platform" they currently get exactly what I hope they will get.

Regards

Tony

[CJ Veniot]

Having chewed on it a little big more ...

Just like I'll never call my Seagull Merlin a Seagull M4, I can't see myself using a re-badged version of TiddlyWiki for my personal use.  I am much too fond of "Tiddly", "Wiki", "Tiddler", and everything else TiddlyWiki.

Now if anybody has some enterprising mojo and puts together a "professional" version of TiddlyWiki with corporate support, then very cool and power to ya!  That would just warm the cockles o' me wee heart.

But please.  Oh pretty please, don't go be FiddlyIcky with me TiddlyWiki, or Fiddler o' me Tiddler.

All of that aside, when a product starts having multi-editions, it winds up splintering a community, and I think that winds up being bad overall.

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 12:43 AM Suzanne McHale <kosmo...@gmail.com> wrote:

For myself, I am fine with the TiddlyWiki name - never saw any problem with it!

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[Luis Gonzalez]

To avoid losing all the effort they already got, many companies choose a "commercial name" but they continue naming in the same way.

I think this is a "marketing" problem. We can choose a "brand" with a strong name but continue calling us Tiddlywiki. This way we don't loose all previous diffusion with the "Tiddlywiki" name.

[A Gloom]

Has no problem with Tiddlywiki, but I can see why some have reserevations, but if you look at the Urban Dictionary-- no word is safe from corruption

If the name has to change, call it TW5 (wiki/app/platform/etc) which keeps a link to the old name and refrerences-- and damn the naysayers and torpedos-- initials/acronyms work as well as actual words

just don't use Looking Glass or WikiWitchery-- they're mine, all mine : P

[TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote

Actually, it's probably wiser to *not* do this unless Jeremy actually requests suggestions which he, AFAIK, hasn't. It is very tempting to spin away about new names (I'm a sinner myself) but in the end this is not a consensus issue, just like you are the sole baptizer of your macros or, for that matter, a TW fork

Actually NO. The point JR raised was that "Tiddly", "Tiddler" & "Wiki" May be problematic words for some users.

It is not possible to think into this without thinking about alternatives!

That does NOT mean that a thought on a name is a candidate for adoption. Merely a stage in a process.

I suggested BRICOLEUR. Not because I thought anyone would like it.

But merely to point to the issue of naming focused on WHETHER

[TiddlyTweeter]

... WHETHER is is better to focus on the things users DO to make a wiki, their work practice, OR, maybe some outcome (cards, stickles, bits etc.).

IS the flag line for TW better reflecting MAKING PROCESS or OUTCOME LOOK?

Something like that.

Best wishes

TT

[David Gifford]

Sell people on the person they can become by using the product, not its features. "A million songs in your pocket", not the technical specifications or process of an ipod. TiddlyWiki is about making connections between the ideas we capture. All the features of TiddlyWiki are about new ways to see and connect ideas: tags, links, lists, macros, plugins, all of these things are really all about that. TiddlyWiki is about facilitating an agile mind that can see unexpected connections between data points, or about sharing those connections with others.

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[Julio Peña]

Hello all,

On Thursday, March 5, 2020 at 12:24:00 PM UTC-5, David Gifford wrote:

....TiddlyWiki is about making connections between the ideas we capture...

Which would bring us to a nice marketing slogan....TIDDLYWIKI....Connections Through Ideas. :)

Good discussion so far.

Best wishes,

Julio

[TonyM]

David,

On Friday, March 6, 2020 at 4:24:00 AM UTC+11, David Gifford wrote:

 TiddlyWiki is about facilitating an agile mind that can see unexpected connections between data points, or about sharing those connections with others.

Ahh, very fashionable the "Agile Ideas" and has AI as its initials 

Agile ideas on the tiddlywiki platform

Tiddlywiki

a non-linear personal web notebook

Agile Ideas

a platform for any idea on tiddlywiki

Agile Ideas platform

a platform for any agile mind

a platform for any idea

...

I love guessing competitions :)

Tony

 

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 11:10 AM TiddlyTweeter <Tiddly...@assays.tv> wrote:

... WHETHER is is better to focus on the things users DO to make a wiki, their work practice, OR, maybe some outcome (cards, stickles, bits etc.).

IS the flag line for TW better reflecting MAKING PROCESS or OUTCOME LOOK?

Something like that.

Best wishes

TT

On Thursday, 5 March 2020 18:04:18 UTC+1, TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Mat wrote

Actually, it's probably wiser to *not* do this unless Jeremy actually requests suggestions which he, AFAIK, hasn't. It is very tempting to spin away about new names (I'm a sinner myself) but in the end this is not a consensus issue, just like you are the sole baptizer of your macros or, for that matter, a TW fork

Actually NO. The point JR raised was that "Tiddly", "Tiddler" & "Wiki" May be problematic words for some users.

It is not possible to think into this without thinking about alternatives!

That does NOT mean that a thought on a name is a candidate for adoption. Merely a stage in a process.

I suggested BRICOLEUR. Not because I thought anyone would like it.

But merely to point to the issue of naming focused on WHETHER

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[HC Haase]

To chime on how and when to rename TW I made a comment in another thread, where TW mobile aspects  is discussed

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/MXXCiHvv-U4/fPIzhv9fAgAJ

tldr: make the name change together with a "version jump" to a "version" optimized for mobile touch interfaces. TW mobile. Much is already prepared. 

[Mal]

As far as I know, Tiddlywiki has no other meaning in any language, which gives it a big advantage for web searching.

Run a web search (duckduckgo - not that other one!) for Tiddlywiki and pretty much all the results are directly related to our Tiddlywiki.  It would be a shame to lose this advantage as well as making it problematic for finding all the old references when searching with a new name.

Just a thought.

Mal

[CJ Veniot]

I'd like to +1 that.  +AwholeBunch?

[Arlen Beiler]

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[Arlen Beiler]

What about calling it

MinnoWiki

since Minnow is a "little fish" in North America. 

A google search for Minnowiki brings up nothing meaningful. 

It would take care of the problem quite nicely, I think.

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 11:47 AM Arlen Beiler <arle...@gmail.com> wrote:

[TonyM]

Arlen,

Minno is still "diminutive" which was the main argument for a rename, but if the main reason is to escape tiddly fair enough.

Your image is not displaying in the last two replies.

Regards

Tony

[Mark S.]

No, it's in a completely different league. "Minnow" may be silly, but "Tiddly" is childish.

[Mark S.]

Amazing! I had the exact same thought today.  Well, actually yours is better, the way the W is shared.

[CJ Veniot]

The first reason I think of to not rename a product, as I threw out there earlier: difficulty finding the wealth of historical TiddlyWiki resources via searches with new product name.

Which got me thinking of the pain the caboose in renaming everything associated with TiddlyWiki.

TiddlyDesktop to WhateverDesktop

TiddlyMap to WhateverMap

TidGraph to WhateverGraph

etc. etc.

And then URL's for all things TiddlyWiki, the name of this forum, things over on Github, and whatever else.

That sniffs like a huge and scary mess.  A ton of work needed by a whole bunch of folk as part of re-branding?

Or is all of that just trivial stuff that a whole bunch of folk are excited to change, and have loads of free time to quickly do in one big synchronized move ?

[TonyM]

A Good point here is both "Tiddly" "TiddlyWiki" and "TiddlyWiki Platform" including NOW my prefered "Tiddly Platform" all give a similar result on Google

• And this is something to treasure see below
• Also "non-linear personal web notebook" and "tiddly platform" also put tiddlywiki at the top, if without the sidebar

Once again, I think if we partnered tiddlywiki or tiddly with another word we can easily reinvent without restarting.

I see that now "Tiddly Platform" is actually better because tiddly still gets the current hits, and we are saying this is a small/or tipsy platform. By adding "platform" we loose the diminutive quality, we describe it well in so far it is a platform in a small package. It allows us to abandon the wiki which is prone to mislead many and I think that the full "tiddlywiki" contributes to its playful yet confusing name, Tiddlywiki is an unusual 4 syllable word.

Whilst liking the "tiddly platform" as a good word pair, tiddly works on its own, even to bring up the graphical sidebar, and "tiddly platform" in google gives

Including results for tiddlywiki platform
Search only for tiddly platform

Search Results

Web results

Further to changing the lead name to give it a higher level of "authority" a simple improvement of the subtitle would capture more searches

"appropriate" 

eg;

Tiddly Platform

non-linear personal web notebook, website, server and smart document in one

• Whilst it is a development platform I am not including it above as platform may be enough to attract developers but not scare off users.
• The term "Smart Document" is part of a vision I have for tiddlywiki, not fully realised yet.
  Its a smart interactive document with potentially its own document management system built in.

I know no one seems interest in this suggestion, but I do think it has merit.

Regards

Tony

[Mark S.]

I was hoping to find the stats we had about 3 years ago. Apparently they were based on the usage of TiddlyFox.

I think if we had stats, you'd find that basically there's about 350 million people

who will automatically discount a product that has a childish, non-serious, and embarrassing name like "Tiddly--anything". 

Yes, there are PROMOTED products with childish names (e.g. Duck Duck Go, which has a TINY sliver of the search market)

But TiddlyWiki has no promotion mechanism. It's that initial "bump" that is the problem. People are turning away from TW

before they know anything more because in their language the name says "Just a toy -- ok to ignore".

 

Yes, if there's an evangelizer in the room, they can get past that. But if not, people just skip to the next thing, of which there are plenty.

I would need a linguist to find correspondingly diminutive forms for every language and/or English dialect. I can only say,

in many parts it is EMBARRASSING to explain to people that you are using a product called TiddlyWiki.

And I wish everyone would quit saying "We would have to change everything." or "we would lose our search results."

You don't have to change everything. You can keep the tiddlywiki.com site, the forum, pretty much everything except

the publicly exposed name of the product. And what good are high ratings on the search engine if people don't know

to look in the first place?

[Eric Shulman]

On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 5:05:36 PM UTC-8, Mark S. wrote:

I think if we had stats, you'd find that basically there's about 350 million people

If we had stats... then we would have a number... but without stats, saying "350 million" is just an imagined number.  This reminds of an old saying: "86.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot" :)

 

who will automatically discount a product that has a childish, non-serious, and embarrassing name like "Tiddly--anything". 

I think you are vastly overstating the "embarrassing" aspect.  I suspect that is more of a personal response on your part, rather than some general truth.  As I wrote previously:

REAL adults... evaluate the cost/benefit relationship to their objectives, and adopt whatever tech makes sense to meet their goals.

Yes, there are PROMOTED products with childish names (e.g. Duck Duck Go, which has a TINY sliver of the search market)

Compared to Google, *ALL* other search sites have "a tiny sliver of the search market".  As I previously noted, https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/top-100-websites-ranking.html shows that DuckDuckGo.com has had a 10-fold growth in the past 5 years, and gets 30 MILLION HITS PER DAY.  While this is clearly nowhere near Google's traffic stats, it's also clearly NOT trivial.

But TiddlyWiki has no promotion mechanism. It's that initial "bump" that is the problem. People are turning away from TW

before they know anything more because in their language the name says "Just a toy -- ok to ignore".

Again, I think that you are vastly overstating the impact that a product *name* has on decision-making.  Sure, some people will dismiss TiddlyWiki "before they know anything more", but I believe that most people are not quite that shallow, especially when they are looking for potential solutions to their needs.

 

 Yes, if there's an evangelizer in the room, they can get past that.

This suggests that TiddlyWiki simply needs some more persuasive "evangelizing"... and that doesn't necessarily mean someone "in the room".

Consider a likely scenario:

Someone is searching for "wiki" software.  They start by searching Google for "wiki programs".  Among the top search results are several "wiki review sites".  Being somewhat jaded by internet hype, they skip over the "advertisement" links and the first few links, which appear to be minor sites (www.clickonf5.org) or self-promoting (www.helpiewp.com, which lists its own HelpieWiki first!).  The next Google search result is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wiki_software; and Wikipedia is generally well-regarded as having reasonably objective and useful information (except for certain controversial topics... of which "wiki software" is NOT!)

On that Wikipedia page, they find that TiddlyWiki is listed TWICE:

First, under the "javascript-based" category, where it is described as

"...a HTML-JavaScript-based server-less wiki in which the entire site/wiki is contained in a single file"

TiddlyWiki is also listed again, under the "personal wiki software" category, where is it described as

"...a free, open-source personal use (single-machine) wiki based on HTML/JavaScript for any browser and OS. It supports customization and a wide range of addons."

Thus, from this one lookup on Wikipedia, TiddlyWiki is already "evangelized" as:

* server-less (ease of setup)

* single file (low resource demand)

* free/open source (no expense)

* any browser and OS (cross-platform flexibility)

* customizable/addons (adaptable to a variety of needs)

and that is just from *two sentences* on one site.  Continuing down the Google search results, the next site that seems promising is https://www.wikimatrix.org/ which declares: WikiMatrix: Compare Them All, where you can find this page:

https://www.wikimatrix.org/show/tiddlywiki

which give a terse, but reasonably thorough overview of TiddlyWiki's features and capabilities.

Then, after reading through those two sites, you might decide to do a Google search for "TiddlyWiki" itself to see what other sites might mention it.

The result includes not only a direct links to tiddlywiki.com and classic.tiddlywiki.com, but also links to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiddlyWiki), OpenSource.com (https://opensource.com/article/19/2/tiddlywiki), GitHub (https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5), Twitter (https://twitter.com/tiddlywiki), and numerous other sites that review TiddlyWiki, and are almost universally positive (or at least neutral) in their assessments.

Thus, with just a little bit of basic searching, TiddlyWiki presents a very positive and encouraging impression that rapidly overcomes any knee-jerk reaction to what may initially seem to be a silly name.

I would need a linguist to find correspondingly diminutive forms for every language and/or English dialect. I can only say,

in many parts it is EMBARRASSING to explain to people that you are using a product called TiddlyWiki.

Once again, this seems to be an over-generalization of your own personal feelings of *embarrassment*, rather than a clear indication of a wide-spread reaction to the name.  The use of the phrase "in many parts", sound much like the way the current US president says "many people are saying" when, in fact, it is often just his opinion, without much basis in *fact*.

And I wish everyone would quit saying "We would have to change everything." or "we would lose our search results."

You don't have to change everything. You can keep the tiddlywiki.com site, the forum, pretty much everything except

the publicly exposed name of the product.

There have already been several suggestions of this variety, where a "publicly exposed name" might help target specific markets, but still reference "powered by TiddlyWiki".

Mark... I appreciate your concerns... but -- with the utmost respect -- I think you've gotten into a "can't see the forest for the trees" mindset about changing the name as a panacea for the real issues.

My sense is that the real solution to TiddlyWiki gaining more traction in the marketplace is about creating one or more compelling "killer apps" that fill widely-perceived, but under-served demands for a particular set of features rather than avoiding any general aversion to the underlying TiddlyWiki name, and that changing the name will accomplish almost nothing in this regard.

So... rather than expending lots of effort to re-label something that WE already know is good, let's focus on building and promoting those killer apps that make the benefits of TiddlyWiki even more clear to others.

enjoy,

-e

[Mark S.]

On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 8:11:51 PM UTC-8, Eric Shulman wrote:

REAL adults... evaluate the cost/benefit relationship to their objectives, and adopt whatever tech makes sense to meet their goals.

No, they don't. Especially without an introducer. Life is short. People faced with dozens of choices will pick the name off the list that seems to be serious. They will skip the one that sounds like a child's toy, because that's probably just some 13 year old's class project.

.

Mark... I appreciate your concerns... but -- with the utmost respect -- I think you've gotten into a "can't see the forest for the trees" mindset about changing the name as a panacea for the real issues.

I never said it was a panacea. It's removal of a major impediment to wide-scale adoption. People can work on the "real issues" whenever they want.

I can see the forest just fine.

[TonyM]

Eric,

I largely agree with you, yet when communicating with others in business I do get strange looks, perhaps that I may be a little crazy. This is a real issue, even my closest friends and families wonder if I am obsessing over the three year olds game. But I believe we need to keep what we have and pivot to a second professional presentation of TiddlyWikis capabilities.

As a result I already say the "tiddlywiki platform" and this seems good enough for me. Interestingly whilst I am happy to be forthright with people it as a open source solution, unless I am talking to another IT professional, I may just call it an "open source, rapid software development platform", the business users usually don't give a dam and will not even google/DuckDuckGo it. They just need a summary from me as to what I can deliver and when.

Perhaps if we had a professional "front end" or website out there that had a professional domain name which when someone arrives they see how impressive it is and a sophisticated explanation of tiddlywiki its possibilities etc... which would otherwise just confuse end users arriving at Tiddlyiki.com looking for a "non-linear personal web notebook, website, server and smart document in one"

Thus developers, hackers, IT literate people will get the serious introduction and others the tiddlywiki world view. There is a risk that only learning about a "non-linear personal web notebook" may not be enough to catch the possibilities. We could say there are two distinct funnels into tiddlywiki designers and users. TiddlyWiki empowers users to be designers but they do not know that at first.

I agree tiddlywiki fairs well as you pointed out 

• when exploring for wiki solutions. 
• If someone only partially remembers the name, but recall it is a wiki they will find tiddlywiki.

but is its participation in the world of Wikis enough? Except for hyperlinking I don't really think of it as a wiki (anymore)

If we adopted a "professional name" for using it as a platform and build a technical platform focused website I think we could open up the audience without loosing and search history Credits. We could promote it to a broader audience, because we can load it with technical possibilities inappropriate to tiddlywiki.com

And as has being said before the existence of different editions that meet different needs will attract users to tiddlywiki in its different forms.

One final point I believe, access to software such as tiddlywiki is empowering and in some ways is "democratising computers and software" giving access to non-programers. This is an approach we could do well to promote. Breaking down the barriers to making use of software for personal needs, for everyone.

Regards

Tony

[Mohammad]

Mark,

 have you noted on the stars Tiddlywiki has got on GitHub? 4.6k

A very small html app like Shower which creates slides on html5+js+css has got 4.4k

If I compare Shower with Tiddlywiki, I give it 10 against 100? Shower can be implemented like a TW plugin. I believe Tiddlyshow is much powerful and feature rich in comparison to Shower!

Popularity and ranks in GitHub encourage newcomers to think those with higher stars are better product!

Don't think the name is one the issue here?

[TiddlyTweeter]

Don't think the name is one the issue here?

Right. Likely several inter-related issues that might include ...

1 - Naming: "Tiddly" & "Tiddler" (I agree with Mark S. they are overall negative), also likely "Wiki" (I'm not convinced it is a Good fit to TW). 

2 - Unclarity: the problem with comparing to things like "Shower" is you end up comparing a single utility with limited scope with a tool (TW) that let's you make something like Shower AND any number of other tools. I think the comparison base is misleading? But that reflects a difficulty in actually articulating what TW is. Should we pitch the APPS of TW made or pitch the PROCESS of making? Hope that is clear enough.

3 - Poor Showcase: at the moment we don't really have enough diverse fully developed apps listed in one place you can point a user (with specific outcomes to look at). FYI I'd say your work is very good for showing "range" or outcomes. If we listed another 70 or so TW with diverse purposes functioning and organised by purpose I think it would help a lot.

4 - Making Apps. v. Using Them: Question: is the audience/user-cohort people who want to make apps? Or (and) those who just want to use it out-of-the-box in a specific field of interest? (e.g. for: ethnographic notes; pin board; maintaining a legal document; searching the internet; gallery of images; recording observations in an experiment; shopping-lists etc, etc). 

Short question: Whilst specific apps can be defined, what do you promote? The final apps or "the making tool"?

Thoughts

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

My sense is that the real solution to TiddlyWiki gaining more traction in the marketplace is about creating one or more compelling "killer apps" that fill widely-perceived, but under-served demands for a particular set of features rather than avoiding any general aversion to the underlying TiddlyWiki name, and that changing the name will accomplish almost nothing in this regard.

Eric, am I allowed to agree with both you & Mark S. ? :-)

The "killer apps" part of this I fully agree with. It simply makes sense to me to address niches with precise solutions, which is exactly what TW is spectacularly good at. 

And we may already have them but don't seem to have a way to advance them. 

So there is, maybe, a missing promo piece?

Thoughts

TT

[Arlen Beiler]

AtomicWiki

That's another idea. I think it captures the essence of TiddlyWiki. 

 

Or the office suite :)

NoteWiki

SheetWiki

SlideWiki

TableWiki

More ideas

PageWiki

Coral Platform (the idea of living building blocks)

MinnoWiki seems to carry about as much appeal as TiddlyWiki (if you have no negative connotation for the word "Tiddly"), I would think.

Arlen

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[TiddlyTweeter]

Arlen, not a criticism, but what is the meaning here of "Wiki"? What does it add?

My concern about it is its in a way empty of meaning.

I think if you used a wiki it makes some sense. But if you haven't?

Just gentle thoughts

Josiah

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[Arlen Beiler]

Wiki is a category which refers to small, easy-to-setup, wall-of-text content management systems, usually equipped with a simple default theme, but infinitely customizable with enough tiem and patience.

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[TonyM]

Arlen

On Tuesday, March 10, 2020 at 7:37:12 AM UTC+11, Arlen Beiler wrote:

Wiki is a category which refers to small, easy-to-setup, wall-of-text content management systems, usually equipped with a simple default theme, but infinitely customizable with enough time and patience.

This is true and it resonates with me but I am a WikiPedia editor, and have installed Media wiki a few times , wiki is a fundamentally important concept yet given how hard it is to recruit editors to WIkiPedia I wonder if that can scare people off the content.

I wonder if stepping back to "Hyperlinks" a link from a "hypertext document" to another location, activated by clicking on a highlighted word or image. Would have more traction.

Regards

Tony

[Mohammad]

Yes, while wiki may restrict the scope of work, but as Arlen said, wiki is a simple and quick way of publishing and authoring. It also binds to collaborative multi user system where Tiddlywiki IS not!

So, in this respect Tiddlywiki is the opposite!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki

-- Mohammad

[R²]

Nice discussion!

The role of a brand name to convey a powerful impression and is by no means secondary. Tiddlywiki being neither tiddly nor a wiki, the current name generates dissonance and makes it more difficult for newcomers to understand what TW actually is.

David Gifford:

Rustonotes. End of discussion.

How about Rustnot? There's Ruston in there, some nice imagery and a reference to the fact that a TW does not degrade over time, which is one of TW's core brand promises. No need to try to say everything. The tagline will help convey more information.

No need to reject the past either. Brand changes are intimidating at first but very exciting once you start the roll-out with something better than the previous iteration. Tiddlers could become tidbits (1. A tasty morsel (of food). 2. (computing, informal) A quarter of a byte (Half of a nybble; two bits). 3. (archaic) A short mention of news or gossip.)

Just my two cents ;)

Regards,

R²

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao R² ... 

... Tiddlers could become tidbits (1. A tasty morsel (of food). 2. (computing, informal) A quarter of a byte (Half of a nybble; two bits). 3. (archaic) A short mention of news or gossip.)

FYI I have a domain that went for "tidbits" as its less obscure than "tiddler".

Tech point on (3). Actually its not universally archaic. In many US & UK contexts "tidbit" still works for "fragment of news, or gossip".

Best wishes

TT

[CJ Veniot]

Although not a fan of renaming good products (and I can't help think it will be a huge pain for an awful lot of folk), I'll just play Devil's advocate ...

Gots to be careful to not rebadge TiddlyWiki with something that makes people think of another product.

For example, using the word "Rust":   Rust is a multiplayer-only survival video game developed by Facepunch Studios. Rust was first released in early access in December 2013 and received its full release in February 2018.

Probably a good idea to consider a name that works well for renaming TiddlyWiki plugins etc.  Calling TiddlyWiki something that doesn't work well renaming TiddlyMap (for example) will, in my view, make a real mess of things.

Say renaming TiddlyWiki to "SuperNoteThing", new users are not going to like needing to know "SuperNoteThing formerly known as TiddlyWiki" when searching for any info/resources/plugins/etc.  on the web.

Along with renaming TiddlySpot, TiddlyDesktop, TiddlyDrive, etc. etc. etc.

[CJ Veniot]

Being from Canada I see "tidbit" and I immediately think "Hmmmm.  Timbits.  Must get to Timmy Ho's ..."

[TiddlyTweeter]

CJ Veniot wrote:

Being from Canada I see "tidbit" and I immediately think "Hmmmm.  Timbits.  Must get to Timmy Ho's ..."

Lol!  I agree getting something that works is difficult!

TT

[CJ Veniot]

Well, as an "intertwingulitis" sufferer, everything is connected to everything else by one whole degree of separation.

I'm a foodie and have a warped sense of humour, so usually one degree of separation to food and/or wistful wonkiness.

All of that just in case anybody thinks I'm just being sarcastic.  Nah, just way-out-o'-left-field thinking and so many dots to connect.

Cheers !

[CJ Veniot]

Whatever happens, as long as "TiddlyWiki" stays somehow part of the product name, and "Tiddler" stays as the word for a "node" of information (I am rather fond of the "Philosophy of Tiddlers"...), I can't see me having any reason to grumble ...

I like TonyM's "TW Platform", if considered the "short name" for the product.

A longer moniker, just to describe the product, might be nice.  An idea for the $hit$ and the giggle$:

• TW Information Componentization Platform?
• I rather like this as a long form to go along with TonyM's shorter "TW Platform"
• TiddlyWiki Information Componentization Platform ?

[Julio Peña]

Hi there all,

On CJ's first point: yeah I'd also like the "TW Platform" name for the product as a short name.

On CJ's second point: I'd like to see something along the lines of content management (maybe I'm using

the wrong term, please forgive me if I am). As I see TiddlyWiki lends itself strongly to the gathering

and manipulation of information.

So with this in mind: "TW Content Management Platform"  or TiddlyWiki CMP (?)

All the best,

Julio

[CJ Veniot]

Loads of potential for discussion, me thinks.

Content Management?  Knowledge Management?  Information Management?  Information Mapping?   All of those (and then some) have certain meaning, which puts me into serious intertwingulitis.

To me, TonyM's "Platform" is kind of a nice catch all for any and all purposes without getting locked-in on any particular angle.

The real beauty/strength of TiddlyWiki is the ability to "maximise the possibilities for re-use by slicing information up into the smallest semantically meaningful units with rich modelling of relationships between them."  Fantastic for  "aggregation and composition to weave the fragments together to present" multiple narratives.  "TiddlyWiki aspires to provide an algebra for tiddlers, a concise way of expressing and exploring the relationships between items of information."

So if a little something can be put into a longer moniker that captures that beauty/strength, that would be awesome.  Hence that "Information Componentization"  (kind of a mouthful) bit o' fluff brought to you by wee old me.

Although not a fan of renaming anything, I'm a lover and not a fighter, plus I am totally enjoying this discussion and the really great stuff folk are bringing up.  Virtual fist-bumps to all !

Total aside:  I see "CMP"  and I immediately think "CHIMP".  Riddle me that ...

[Julio Peña]

....that's funny!

Good one!

CHIMP: "Content Hypertext Info Mgmt Platform"....hehehe.

[CJ Veniot]

OMG, que bueno!

I did not expect that.  So frigging awesome (a gift that keeps on giving)!  I will be giggling like a little school girl the rest o' the day.

Thanks, Julio !

[Julio Peña]

Much Obliged CJ!

[PMario]

On Wednesday, March 11, 2020 at 6:24:42 PM UTC+1, Julio Peña wrote:

....that's funny!

Good one!

CHIMP: "Content Hypertext Info Mgmt Platform"....hehehe.

Love that :))))) I think it should be written without abbreviations to make it even more impressive :)

"Content Hypertext Information Management Platform"

.... Yea, that's a name!

-m

[Mohammad]

I vote for this: Content Hypertext Info Management Platform or a suitable abbreviation!

Thank you all.

[CJ Veniot]

Componentized Hypertext Information Management Platform ?

Looking at Component content management system, I pulled out the following which I think apply to TiddlyWiki:

• manages content at a granular level (component) rather than at the document level
• Each component represents a single topic, concept or asset
• Each component is only stored one time in the content, providing a single, trusted source of content
• These components are then reused (rather than copied and pasted) within a document or across multiple documents.
• This ensures that content is consistent across the entire documentation set
• The use of components can also reduce the amount of time it takes to update and maintain content as changes only need to be made once, in one component.
• Components can be as large as a chapter or as small as a definition or even a word.
• Components in multiple content assemblies (content types) can be viewed as components or as traditional documents.

The only reason I don't like the word "content": sounds too much like content management, and Tiddly Wiki is a platform about whatever anyone needs:  content, knowledge, information, Getting Things Done, inventory cataloger, genealogy database, concept/mind mapping, blogging, web site creation, etc. etc. etc.  Such a buffet of possibilities...

Of course, I get into vocabulary paralysis by analysis, so pay no mind to me !

As I read, and enjoy, each post in this thread, I come back full-circle each time:  I do prefer "TiddlyWiki", "TW", "TiddlyWiki Platform" and TonyM's "TW Platform".  Although I often get way too wordy, I really appreciate minimalism.

[David Gifford]

Or.... Outstanding Ruston App eNabling Great User Tagging And Notetaking

Dave

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[TonyM]

Thanks there for some support on the "platform" 

All this talk of components does make be think of snap together tools and lego bricks etc... In someways before closing this chapter we do need to stop and think what impresses us the most even if its only to publish content that places such things along side a reference to tiddlywiki, thus when someone searches for what is good in tiddlywiki they see "tiddlywiki platform".

For me it is the fact it is a whole platform for the building of many things, and there are lots of shapins, clip ins, plugins but how mature is this space in tiddlywiki?

The other may seem obscure to many but I think it a real strength but that it places the basic unit of any database, the record, with its unique key (the title), at eye level or in your face. By making such a move I think it allows people to respond to Content Management?  Knowledge Management?  Information Management?  Information Mapping? Personal databases and more including the a non-linear personal web notebook.

Regards

Tony

[Ste Wilson]

David wins! Orangutan for the win! Chimp was so last comment! :D

[Mohammad]

LOL :-) :-)

I did not note to the meaning -:)

[David Gifford]

https://tenor.com/view/im-winning-mr-bean-running-rat-race-gif-3873262

[Arlen Beiler]

TiddlyWiki is not a multi-user platform. In fact, it is arguably not a platform at all. It is actually a syntax. It is a specification, not a library. It can be implemented in any language. Jeremy has implemented it in a Javascript library (wikitext parser) and single-user document framework (core widgets) in the browser. He decided to call them all TiddlyWiki for confusion's sake (just kidding, it actually makes sense). It could just as easily be implemented in PHP as a server-side multi-user CMS (assuming you call several thousand hours of work easy). Sure, the UI might be slightly different if implemented like that, but it would still be TiddlyWiki. 

That was the original direction TiddlyWiki Five was headed. Popular demand has since been slowly pushing it toward some Javascript dependencies, but it is still a specification. I haven't been innocent of that either, having originally not comprehended the full scope of the project. 

It just so happens that browsers make it really easy to implement specifications that only involve one user editing a document at a time and not needing to serve it across the network. The network optimizations came much later in the form of TiddlyServer and Bob, as well as some improvements in the core --listen command. 

It definitely fits in with other wikis. The common feature of all wikis is the ability to link between pages, and to easily create new pages, and organize those pages using templates. I came from MediaWiki, and while the framework isn't the same, the specification is very similar. The word "wiki" puts it in a category that you can expect certain features from, and while it isn't multi-user, it actually is very easy to have multiple people edit it, especially with the Node version and a few tweaks. It isn't really meant for WikiPedia, but then again WikiPedia has outgrown its own wikitext many times over. I would have been thrilled to have some of the features of TiddlyWiki syntax in MediaWiki back when I was an editor on WikiPedia. That's why I switched to TiddlyWiki. Some things are just so much easier. 

And nothing is harder, except MediaWiki allows you to transclude an open tag without closing it and then close it later with a second template! In tiddlywiki you have to put the whole thing in a macro and use a set widget to get the header and footer then include them as substitutions. You can't do it in the main part of the page. But that's a minor problem and has a rather simple fix I thought of just now. 

Anyway, hope that gives some perspective on the possibilities of what we have in our hands. From someone who has spent his TiddlyWiki time poking around the Javascript implementation and trying to make it do stuff it wanted to be able to do but never got around to doing. Ok, I know that sounds funny, but in the early days there were a lot of stubs in the code and it was obvious that certain things were intended to be implemented but there was never a demand for it so it never happened. 

One of these days I'll write a multi-user plugin. Jeremy is working on an update to make syncing more dependable which will make it a lot easier. And the server has already been updated. One of these days, it's going to happen. 

Arlen

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 7:21 AM David Gifford <dgif...@crcna.org> wrote:

https://images.app.goo.gl/ocbyB1U2xTK5wVb98

On Thursday, March 12, 2020 at 2:39:40 AM UTC-6, Ste Wilson wrote:

David wins! Orangutan for the win! Chimp was so last comment! :D

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[CJ Veniot]

Arg.  My paralysis by analysis is acting up ...

Just from a non-technical / user perspective, I see TiddlyWiki as a "solutions platform": Getting Things Done (GTD), blogging solution, task management, web site creation, personal note-taking/KM solution, PIM, inventory database (CD/Movie/etc. collection, genealogy, etc.), and so on and so forth to infinity and beyond.

I think I kind of get calling it a syntax/specification from a nuts-and-bolts-innards-techie perspective, but that doesn't make much sense to me from a strictly end-user perspective.  I do agree with this, though: I don't see TiddlyWiki as a "software development/deployment platform" or framework.

Just saying, from a total regular-Joe viewpoint.

BTW:  I totally enjoyed reading your post.  Really nice addition to a mightily enjoyable thread o' discussion.

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[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Arlen

This is one of the most interesting overviews I have ever read about TW!

I redacted parts of it to foreground the main thrust.

Many thanks!

TT

Arlen Beiler wrote:

TiddlyWiki is not a multi-user platform. In fact, it is arguably not a platform at all. It is actually a syntax.

 

It is a specification, not a library.

 

It can be implemented in any language.

 

Jeremy has implemented it in a Javascript library ...

 

It could just as easily be implemented in PHP as a server-side multi-user CMS ...

 

That was the original direction TiddlyWiki Five was headed.

 

Popular demand has since been slowly pushing it toward some Javascript dependencies, but it is still a specification. 

 

It just so happens that browsers make it really easy to implement specifications that only involve one user editing a document at a time and not needing to serve it across the network. The network optimizations came much later in the form of TiddlyServer and Bob...

[Arlen Beiler]

LOL, I didn't mean to make it sound like it was headed toward PHP! I meant it was headed toward being a stand-alone specification with an implementation in Javascript, but which could be re-implemented in a different language due to the wikitext characteristics. It still could be but NodeJS is mature enough that another implementation will probably never be needed. Good summary.

Arlen

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[Mark Kerrigan]

Thanks Arlen for your characterization, it's very helpful in conceptualizing "TiddlyWiki Philosophy". I think it's good there is a discussion about the name, even though it doesn't seem like there is any obvious immediate consensus. 

Changing the name might only have a small influence over the overall marketing strategy for TW, but introducing new ways to think about TiddlyWiki as a syntax / language is helpful.

- Mark

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[Mohammad]

Thanks Arlen,

I really enjoyed reading your post! and I learned from it.

Like CJ Veniot I do not know what we can call TW from technical point of view, but for me TW is like raw materials (html5+css+wikitext) and I can make many things (apps) with it. Sometimes I describe it like a small white canvas and a bunch of watercolors and I can paint many things! I know we cant say anything :-)

BTW I still believe in renaming Tiddlywiki and choosing a semantic, meaningful name :-)

--Mohammad

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[Anjar]

Hi,

I couldn't see it being suggested, but a temporary solution may be to use a another shortform than TW(5); say "Tidwi" as in TiddlyWiki for example; when reaching out; it may be less charged (importnt for the first impression) and we can still link it to all existing ressources by specifying that "TiddlyWiki (short: Tidwi) is blablabla" and so on

Best,

Anders

[TonyM]

Arlen

And nothing is harder, except MediaWiki allows you to transclude an open tag without closing it and then close it later with a second template! In tiddlywiki you have to put the whole thing in a macro and use a set widget to get the header and footer then include them as substitutions. You can't do it in the main part of the page. But that's a minor problem and has a rather simple fix I thought of just now.

This comment "I thought of just now" sounds like in the margin of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat%27s_Last_Theorem

If I understand correctly what you are saying, I would be keen to know. I think it could be very useful, but it also needs to be clear and used sparceley lest ones transclusions become a nightmare.

Regards

Tony

[Thomas Elmiger]

This is a hilarious thread with so many intelligent and witty participants – thank you all!
There are already too many contributions for me to stay on top of everything. Sorry if I overlooked something.

I would like to spray in a few thoughts of my own, starting with this snippet from Arlen:

Am Montag, 9. März 2020 21:07:52 UTC+1:

AtomicWiki

That's another idea. I think it captures the essence of TiddlyWiki. 

That’s exactly what it does: For me, the hook that persuaded me to try TW was the philosophy stated on the card (?) about TiddlyWiki on tiddlywiki.com:

The fundamental idea is that information is more useful and reusable if we cut it up into the smallest semantically meaningful chunks [...]

So my goal would be to preserve this fundamental idea in the name. If it isn’t a Tiddler any longer, what could it be? I have a long list and a clear favourite, so I will spare you the list.

Second best: WaterWiki (we can decide later if Wiki should stay part of the name). Water is as vital for humans as thinking is. Big Data is collected in data lakes, TW has a river, the story river and helps to stay in the flow of writing. Information in TW can find its way like magic and appear in other places like water following streams under the earth’s surface ... you can find more analogies, I am sure. Now what is the smallest entity we can find in water? Is it atomic? H and O? Molecular: H2O? In my personal logic, atoms are characters and molecules are words. (Of course, if you want to support AtomicWiki, then there are electrons and protons and tachyons and I don’t know what.) But back to the picture in my brain ... what’s next?

DropWiki is a perfect fit.

A drop can become everything. A sip, damp, ice. It comes with a bonus layer of fascination: drag and drop. My update process (not the official way, I know!): I drop my wiki on the latest version of empty.html. Add a plugin: drop it on your wiki. Transfer tiddlers: drag a title or a tagpill or export json using a filter ... and tadaaa:

drop it on your wiki. Tired of Evernote? Drop it.

Do you have to let that sink in? No problem, I have more ideas, but they can wait. Drop me a line or throw a bucket of answers in my direction ;–)

 

Cheers,
Thomas

[Mat]

Thomas Elmiger wrote:

The fundamental idea is that information is more useful and reusable if we cut it up into the smallest semantically meaningful chunks [...]

So my goal would be to preserve this fundamental idea in the name. If it isn’t a Tiddler any longer, what could it be?

ChunkyWiki! Hooorrayyyy!

<:-)

[TiddlyTweeter]

I doubt that "atoms" or "fragments" capture TW fully. 

Sure it builds from bits & its commit to build UP from them is pretty radical. 

Of course the atomistic "unit model" of existence is a major trope of computerisation in general so its not that unique. 

BUT in case of TW its architecturally true too and that definitely makes a difference.

That and its Quine Nature. 

BUT I'd hope we'd be concerned too with results, not just gloryfying bricks.

IMO it is the Flexibility Of Creating Wholes that is as important. 

Outcomes may matter more to uptake.

My 2 pence more.

Thoughts

Josiah

[Mohammad]

Hi Thomas,

  To this end it seems you have no problem with a new name! I read your discussion on Twitter! where it was stated Tiddlywiki is of a WebApp nature!

  It seems there is no or little consensus on wiki part! 

  I also agree with TonyM where he calls TW a kind of digital platform!

--Mohammad

[Thomas Elmiger]

@Mat :-D JunkieWiki sounds great.

@Mohammand, thanks for asking :)

If this was my product, I would keep the good and add the better: Drop App – a starter edition for writing thinkers, based on the Xememex Wiki Engine version 5.1.22, driven by @Jermolene and the phantastic TW Community. Where TW would stand for TiddlyWiki, a fact that matters for old TWizzards and TWitches but not for our new audience.

Consumers want to use an app, something that is easy to install (what they have to and are used to) and easy to use. Something that primarily works. Keep flexibility and adapt/develop your own app for later, focus on simplicity and results (I am with @Josiah here). Developers would get a powerful engine that works wiki style like @Arlen explained above. And the community would stay the community we all love.

I know that I am probably mixing terms from different worlds here. But they have the potential to be mixed by potential users looking for the app of their dreams anyway. So I mix freely and happily and will get a drink now.

Cheers,

Thomas

[Dave Parker]

How about "TheWiki" (the wiki formerly known as TiddlyWiki).

People would say "have you tried TheWiki?"

"what wiki?"

"not just any wiki - THE Wiki!  The wiki for the ages, the Only wiki. Get it at thewiki.com" <-- just checked, its available :D

Also, if you wanted to be even more generic, thething.com is also available.

"Here's the thing."

"what?"

"no its right here on this usb I'm handing you - TheThing"

P.S. I'd keep the word Tiddler though - that's too good to lose :)

[David Gifford]

What about the name "Notid"?

1) Ties into notetaking: Take a NOTE with a TID

2) Keeps verbal connection with Tiddlywiki

3) Short and easy to pronounce and spell: "noted with an I" or "n-o-t-i-d"

4) Google search doesn't turn up anything for "Notid" or "Notid app"

5) Tagline: "make sure your notes are duly notid."

If not this, then I still vote for my Orangutan: Outstanding Ruston App eNabling Great User Tagging And Notetaking.

[Mat]

 Dave Parker wrote:

How about "TheWiki" (the wiki formerly known as TiddlyWiki).

I thought that was a brilliant idea but it, unfortunately, is registered albeit not in use, see https://www.whois.net/

<:-)

[David Gifford]

whois says that

velocirapp.com is available

Cool name. It's an app, it's speedy for notetaking, it's also a vicious predator recreated from DNA found in a mosquito trapped in amber.

The only thing that comes up in Google search is a food delivery service in Ecatepec, Morelos, Mexico (about an hour or two drive from from my house).

LET'S GET IT BEFORE IT'S GONE

[Birthe C]

Inspired? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velociraptor I think Motovun Jack is more peaceful.

[Julio Peña]

Did someone mention Motovun?...

MotoWiki....hahaha

All the best,

Julio