TW5 as a better option than ePub (cont)
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John Newell
Nov 21, 2016, 7:11:29 AM11/21/16
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In furtherance to contact by "Josiah" questioning the differing needs TWebooks have as novels .....
and following up on the emergence of TW5 as a Great ebook option >> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/cUrhiFheiWY
Josiah - I agree with your point that when reading a novel on TW5 -
a long, deep page appears and bookmarking in any way akin to ePub page-turning formats is neither practical, nor possible.
So : thinking laterally, "markers" could be place at spacing of approximately every screen page.....
Here's the image - https://goo.gl/Zmk5pH where a page with the marker is placed, and when clicked - where a CLEARLY identifiable market is kept
A nice synergy with a horizontal bookmarker - defining it as different to the vertical physical bookmarker.
NOTE : I am checking to see if the OFFLINE reading process ( eg as available on iOS - goo.gl/Y1cjfQ ) can be used to SAVE changes by the user )
( NOTE - branded, artisitic, patterned etc bookmarks are easily embedded just as the samplers are )
Here's the basic code : creating an Appear Reveal with a thick coloured line full width ( saved as b1 - bookmark version 1 - purple )
<big><$appear mode="inline">''<div style="background-color:mediumorchid;height:7px;width:100%;left:0;top:0;">''
Then , place this code in an empty line to make faster replications of the b1 bookmark starting with this tiddler : bk1
{{b1}}
and repeat with extra tiddlers titled and embedded as {{bk2}} {{bk3}} {{bk4}} {{bk4}} etc
which stops all "appearing" - though there's probably a more elegant way to do this.
Feedback, ideas and options welcomed ......
and following up on the emergence of TW5 as a Great ebook option >> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/cUrhiFheiWY
Josiah - I agree with your point that when reading a novel on TW5 -
a long, deep page appears and bookmarking in any way akin to ePub page-turning formats is neither practical, nor possible.
So : thinking laterally, "markers" could be place at spacing of approximately every screen page.....
Here's the image - https://goo.gl/Zmk5pH where a page with the marker is placed, and when clicked - where a CLEARLY identifiable market is kept
A nice synergy with a horizontal bookmarker - defining it as different to the vertical physical bookmarker.
NOTE : I am checking to see if the OFFLINE reading process ( eg as available on iOS - goo.gl/Y1cjfQ ) can be used to SAVE changes by the user )
( NOTE - branded, artisitic, patterned etc bookmarks are easily embedded just as the samplers are )
Here's the basic code : creating an Appear Reveal with a thick coloured line full width ( saved as b1 - bookmark version 1 - purple )
<big><$appear mode="inline">''<div style="background-color:mediumorchid;height:7px;width:100%;left:0;top:0;">''
Then , place this code in an empty line to make faster replications of the b1 bookmark starting with this tiddler : bk1
{{b1}}
and repeat with extra tiddlers titled and embedded as {{bk2}} {{bk3}} {{bk4}} {{bk4}} etc
which stops all "appearing" - though there's probably a more elegant way to do this.
Feedback, ideas and options welcomed ......
Jed Carty
Nov 21, 2016, 7:25:52 AM11/21/16
to TiddlyWiki
I think that with what we have right now you could just split your text into different tiddlers for each section, where sections are either paragraphs or something longer, and have them display in order with a theme that doesn't show tiddler boundaries. It would be pretty simple to have something analogous to a page be a few paragraphs long and have buttons that will close the tiddlers currently displayed and open the set for the next or previous page. Then bookmarks could be to a page in the same way you would with epubs.
The slide show plugins people have made already do pretty much this same thing, it would just be a different display of the same thing. The most difficult parts would probably be making tools to automatically split the paragraphs into pages. It would be easy to just say that a page is equal to 5 paragraphs, but if you have very long or very short paragraphs in some part of the book than you would have inconsistently sized pages and you may have some pages running off the screen. That could be a problem on some readers, but the rest wouldn't be too hard.
John Newell
Nov 21, 2016, 7:45:41 AM11/21/16
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Hi Jed - thanks for the feedback
We actually tried doing that with Spiritual Quest eBook and rounded up some ( novices to TW5 ) and gave them chapters done as slideshows. displaying one page at a time - just clicking the series of small icons atop that tiddler
there were a few that liked it - but the vast majority found :
We actually tried doing that with Spiritual Quest eBook and rounded up some ( novices to TW5 ) and gave them chapters done as slideshows. displaying one page at a time - just clicking the series of small icons atop that tiddler
there were a few that liked it - but the vast majority found :
- the icons too small on mobile devices to navigate successfully ( the "all-thumbs" response )
- the pages then too many ( which is almost the same experience as ePub ) except ePub benefits from finger-slide page turns AND auto-flowing of fluid text
- --- We questioned which felt better ePub or TWebook and TW was categorically favoured - mainly because it LOOKED better overall.
The problem with slides is that you'd need a version for mobile, one for tablet and one for desktop in separating tiddlers......
TW5 already has inbuilt flowable text - DOWN the page - seemlessly.
Whilst that initially confused the throng of test bunnies we threw these to, they warmed to it - especially when the ability to have IMAGES appear where they should be was evident.
what is more natural on a TECH DEVICE ?
It has to be more comfortable that the weird mobile phone attachment
that allows you to hear the other talked when you put you finger in your ear !!!
(SGNL - https://youtu.be/Yh1M5kVlNOw )
Josiah
Nov 21, 2016, 8:21:49 AM11/21/16
to TiddlyWiki
Ciao John & Jed
A small point. But perhaps pertinent to the issue of the grain of Tiddlerisation (i.e. what is the appropriate unit, a sentence, a paragraph, a page, a chapter?).
My sense is to pay attention to what for readers is the semantic unit of text that coheres into a "step".
When you read someone like Charles Dickens the semantic unfoldment corresponds well to paragraph structure. [Dickens was writing brilliantly tightly for serialised publications with absolute word limits. His serial cliff-hangers are amongst the most inviting ever written.]
But if you reading someone like J.M. Coetzee, a very fine modern novelist, the meaning is slowly emergent. The structural unit is likely much more the chapter than the paragraph.
The flex of TW allows many solutions and that is good for E-pubs. It allows differential implementation book by book, as appropriate.
My gripe is not so much the architecture of an e-novel. Its more around how difficult its getting to save the bloody thing and make sure a reader can see it well on multiple devices.
Best wishes
Josiah
A small point. But perhaps pertinent to the issue of the grain of Tiddlerisation (i.e. what is the appropriate unit, a sentence, a paragraph, a page, a chapter?).
My sense is to pay attention to what for readers is the semantic unit of text that coheres into a "step".
When you read someone like Charles Dickens the semantic unfoldment corresponds well to paragraph structure. [Dickens was writing brilliantly tightly for serialised publications with absolute word limits. His serial cliff-hangers are amongst the most inviting ever written.]
But if you reading someone like J.M. Coetzee, a very fine modern novelist, the meaning is slowly emergent. The structural unit is likely much more the chapter than the paragraph.
The flex of TW allows many solutions and that is good for E-pubs. It allows differential implementation book by book, as appropriate.
My gripe is not so much the architecture of an e-novel. Its more around how difficult its getting to save the bloody thing and make sure a reader can see it well on multiple devices.
Best wishes
Josiah
Jed Carty
Nov 21, 2016, 8:33:16 AM11/21/16
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Is needing separate templates really a big problem here? I haven't really tried so I don't know. But for text I think that you would just need to make 3 or 4 templates and use the correct one based on screen size. If you have more active content or images than you have other problems but you would have them in other formats as well.
And as for what is more natural on a tech device I would say RSVP is most natural for reading just text. For presenting information other than just plain text I still find single page (that is non-scrolling) chunks of text to be the most natural. My problem with that is that I may just be biased because despite the web being around for a few decades we haven't really discovered how to present information all that well in a dynamic environment.
A while ago I started some experiments on this but never got very far in them.
magillamax
Nov 21, 2016, 8:51:06 AM11/21/16
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Hi Jed
with Spiritual Quest - that required a mix of icon navigation, images, embeds, large icons plus feature art as well as text. I could get away with iphone & ipad on the one template ( portrait format ) which is the "natural" tilt for their readers .... but laptops and desktops SWITCH to a landscape format - so a different approach is needed.
RECENTLY ADDED CONTENT
on WHY EPUB IS BETTER THAN TW5 AS A READER -
WHEN THIS ISSUE MAIN IS ADDRESSED
on WHY EPUB IS BETTER THAN TW5 AS A READER -
WHEN THIS ISSUE MAIN IS ADDRESSED
To be quite honest about it - even with hidden sidebar - the Wide format is actually very awkward unless a two page spread can be achieved......
very WIDE strings of text is an anathema to our natural expectation for a good reading experience* - ( on this TW fails to excite )
* a DISTRACTION-free Reading Environment makes for a better reading experience ( especially for novels etc )
very WIDE strings of text is an anathema to our natural expectation for a good reading experience* - ( on this TW fails to excite )
* a DISTRACTION-free Reading Environment makes for a better reading experience ( especially for novels etc )
Interestingly - as we had asked a variety of question of our initial readers / testers - for almost ALL who used desktop they deferred to resizing the TW window to 50% screen width and found that more "comfortable" - as it was closer to a portait tablet display. Note - we DID suggest that if the full width screen wasn't to the reader liking - resizing to a half-width browser window is an option.
Coincidentally - Reading these wiki notes on a ( Google Groups ) desktop screen is OK for those - like all reading this - who are USED TO THIS FORMAT.
Most of the general public aren't accustomed to reading like this.
In fact - try this : Compact/ close the LEFT SIDEBAR, so you are reading without those options.....
WHY? > because nobody reads BOOKS with a raft of options that rarely get used and don't enhance the reading experience.
READERs as more used to - and comfortable with CLEAN, uncluttered text.
LOOK AT THIS PAGE : This is NOT UN-DISTRACTED READING.
Want to test this ?
I have hidden the left sidebar
The ENTIRE screen on this laptop has 350 sq cm of viewing space
LOOK at this portion of the screen - THIS window - what you are reading has 84 sq cm =
That's LESS than 25% of the viewable screen.
BUT - we accept it because we want access to extraneous links and format icons and option bars ..etc
Here's a quick test : which format is more easily and comfortable read? Remember - a good reading experience aids a good book.
It had beenwaged for more than a century with varying fortunes, and over a vast extent of territory. The sea-girt province of Acadia in the extreme east, and the rich valley of the Ohio in the far west had alike been the scene of bloody encounters, and now the combatants were coming to close grips in that picturesque and beautiful portion of New York State where the twin lakes Champlain and George lay embosomed amid forest-clad hills.
The possession of these lakes was divided between the two rivals, the French being masters of Lake Champlain, and the English LakeGeorge, and their crystal waters were again and again reddened with the life blood of the antagonists and their Indian allies as they fought fiercely for the prize of sole possession that the way between Canada and the colonies might be completely closed to whichever power was vanquished.
In the spring of the year 1755 the New England colonies combined to undertake the capture of Crown Point, the French stronghold on Lake Champlain, which for the past quarter of a century had been a veritable hornet's nest. To Governor Shirley of Massachusetts was due the credit of inspiring the undertaking, and his province was foremost in voting men and money toward its accomplishment, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and finally New York followed suit, and the result was a little army of several thousand men, whose appearance would have filled a European commander with scorn.
For they were none of them soldiers, but simply farmers and farmers' sons who had gallantly volunteered for the campaign, leaving their scattered dingy homes in the midst of rough fields of corn and pumpkins to shoulder the guns they all knew so well how to use, and when the fighting was over, if so be that they escaped the bullet and tomahawk, to return to their ploughing and sowing as though they had merely been out on a hunting trip.
Only one corps boasted a uniform, blue faced with red. The others were content with their ordinary clothes, and the most of them brought their own guns. They had no bayonets, but carried hatchets in their belts instead, and at their sides were slung powder-horns on which they had carved quaint devices with the points of their pocket knives.
Coincidentally - Reading these wiki notes on a ( Google Groups ) desktop screen is OK for those - like all reading this - who are USED TO THIS FORMAT.
Most of the general public aren't accustomed to reading like this.
In fact - try this : Compact/ close the LEFT SIDEBAR, so you are reading without those options.....
WHY? > because nobody reads BOOKS with a raft of options that rarely get used and don't enhance the reading experience.
READERs as more used to - and comfortable with CLEAN, uncluttered text.
LOOK AT THIS PAGE : This is NOT UN-DISTRACTED READING.
Want to test this ?
I have hidden the left sidebar
The ENTIRE screen on this laptop has 350 sq cm of viewing space
LOOK at this portion of the screen - THIS window - what you are reading has 84 sq cm =
That's LESS than 25% of the viewable screen.
BUT - we accept it because we want access to extraneous links and format icons and option bars ..etc
Here's a quick test : which format is more easily and comfortable read? Remember - a good reading experience aids a good book.
THIS ?
The great conflict between England and France for supremacy upon the North American continent was drawing near its final stage. It had beenwaged for more than a century with varying fortunes, and over a vast extent of territory. The sea-girt province of Acadia in the extreme east, and the rich valley of the Ohio in the far west had alike been the scene of bloody encounters, and now the combatants were coming to close grips in that picturesque and beautiful portion of New York State where the twin lakes Champlain and George lay embosomed amid forest-clad hills.
The possession of these lakes was divided between the two rivals, the French being masters of Lake Champlain, and the English LakeGeorge, and their crystal waters were again and again reddened with the life blood of the antagonists and their Indian allies as they fought fiercely for the prize of sole possession that the way between Canada and the colonies might be completely closed to whichever power was vanquished.
In the spring of the year 1755 the New England colonies combined to undertake the capture of Crown Point, the French stronghold on Lake Champlain, which for the past quarter of a century had been a veritable hornet's nest. To Governor Shirley of Massachusetts was due the credit of inspiring the undertaking, and his province was foremost in voting men and money toward its accomplishment, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and finally New York followed suit, and the result was a little army of several thousand men, whose appearance would have filled a European commander with scorn.
For they were none of them soldiers, but simply farmers and farmers' sons who had gallantly volunteered for the campaign, leaving their scattered dingy homes in the midst of rough fields of corn and pumpkins to shoulder the guns they all knew so well how to use, and when the fighting was over, if so be that they escaped the bullet and tomahawk, to return to their ploughing and sowing as though they had merely been out on a hunting trip.
Only one corps boasted a uniform, blue faced with red. The others were content with their ordinary clothes, and the most of them brought their own guns. They had no bayonets, but carried hatchets in their belts instead, and at their sides were slung powder-horns on which they had carved quaint devices with the points of their pocket knives.
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
OR THIS ?
WITH ROGERS ON THE FRONTIER
CHAPTER I ENGLISH AGAINST FRENCH The great conflict between England and France for supremacy upon the North American continent was drawing near its final stage. It had been waged for more than a century with varying fortunes, and over a vast extent of territory. The sea-girt province of Acadia in the extreme east, and the rich valley of the Ohio in the far west had alike been the scene of bloody encounters, and now the combatants were coming to close grips in that picturesque and beautiful portion of New York State where the twin lakes Champlain and George lay embosomed amid forest-clad hills. The possession of these lakes was divided between the two rivals, the French being masters of Lake Champlain, and the English of Lake George, and their crystal waters were again and again reddened with the life blood of the antagonists and their Indian allies as they fought fiercely for the prize of sole possession that the way between Canada and the colonies might be completely closed to whichever power was vanquished. In the spring of the year 1755 the New England colonies combined to undertake the capture of Crown Point, the French stronghold on Lake Champlain, which for the past quarter of a century had been a veritable hornet's nest. To Governor Shirley of Massachusetts was due the credit of inspiring the undertaking, and his province was foremost in voting men and money toward its accomplishment, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and finally New York followed suit, and the result was a little army of several thousand men, whose appearance would have filled a European commander with scorn. For they were none of them soldiers, but simply farmers and farmers' sons who had gallantly volunteered for the campaign, leaving their scattered dingy homes in the midst of rough fields of corn and pumpkins to shoulder the guns they all knew so well how to use, and when the fighting was over, if so be that they escaped the bullet and tomahawk, to return to their ploughing and sowing as though they had merely been out on a hunting trip. Only one corps boasted a uniform, blue faced with red. The others were content with their ordinary clothes, and the most of them brought their own guns. They had no bayonets, but carried hatchets in their belts instead, and at their sides were slung powder-horns on which they had carved quaint devices with the points of their pocket knives. Neither really?
Partly because in CANNOT be absorbing as an undistracted read
Bu also as long, long, long screen wide sentences are ARDUOUS
and epub covers that by enhancing in part - the reading experience by taking us all back to a comfortable reading space
OPEN , FACING PAGES
If TW5 has the capacity the gain the love and support of a mobile-reading experience
( where I believe the altarenatives of PDF and ePUB Fail badly )
It has the opportunity to dominate by solving the large, full screen alternative.
( where I believe the altarenatives of PDF and ePUB Fail badly )
It has the opportunity to dominate by solving the large, full screen alternative.
cheers
JN
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Marc Ferguson
Nov 21, 2016, 4:34:02 PM11/21/16
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I thought I'd chime in on this. I may be a renegade but I think TW5 can be much better than an ePub because of its ability for the user to make changes.
Our church has an excellent but dated family activity book. It has lots of ideas with descriptions of each idea. Families that can't think of something can look through the book and it sparks ideas. The best thing about the book is the organization.
Often in our family we would assign a child to find an activity and there are games and things to do on walks and all sorts of stuff.
It is also great for youth groups to come up with an annual plan of activities.
One problem with the book is since it is a simple paper and ink book when the kids get married they want a copy of our family version that has all sorts of notes and phone numbers and stuff that has been added to the pages.
I also have used this book with a Boy Scout group that I have worked with for many years. When I am released from that role I know the next leader would love a copy so he or she doesn't have to start over from scratch.
ePubs don't fill the bill because they aren't able to change and therefore aren't cherished like this book is.
My idea is to create a TW that can be distributed in its pristine form and keep it simple enough that users can easily make it there's.
This way I can keep one version for my scouts. In fact I can give versions to the youth leaders and let them create their own patrol version and someday I can simply email the latest version to the new leader when I leave. And I can still have my Scout version for me to page through and remember good memories.
I can also give copies of our family version to my kids and grandkids over time. Wouldn't that make a great Christmas or wedding present.
I can see that ePub is a way to make money and protect intellectual property but I would like to hear your thoughts about this use of TW.
Cheers
Marc
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John Newell
Nov 21, 2016, 5:47:29 PM11/21/16
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Hi Marc - and thanks for your input.
It's great to see another format where TW can provide a solution as a dynamic (e)book.
I hope I am reading this correctly - but the idea you have it to produce a collective TWebook
- pristine -organised -well presented.
distribute it and allow for each file distributed the ability for the reader / user to add THEIR comments, extra stories and perspectives.
and make THAT function easy.... really easy.
Whilst I totally believe that a hybrid TW5 could produce that.....
it may take time and be lower down the list than we'd like.
My solution currently is to purchase a www.padlet.com account ($US29pa ) and add unique "padlets" as embeds to each TWeBook
It does mean adding a unique embed code to each new copy of the TWebook for distribution.
but the uniqueness, readability and dynamics of padlet make that an awesome option.
padlet don't do a great job of opening the eyes and imaginations of the users that well..
but padlet is an IDEAL choice as any and all of these page ( tiddler ) options in your book :
I am excited by the interest developing on the recent "swing" to TW5 being used, recognised and further enhanced as a storytelling application.
Like most of the TW fraternity we predominantly use TW5 files as collections of information in snippets and related parts.
Linked easily by CamelCasing and markdown.
And I'm sure we all get a "tingle of excitement" when a cool addition, plugin or slice of code makes it more dynamic.
But - to what end?
Yep - as a wiki - it is great. The best!
As a storytelling device - as clumsy or incomplete as WE may see it - TW5 makes ePub look ugly and old as a book delivery format.
And ePub trails behind TW5 in the dynamics which are possible - AND - the emjoyable reading experience it provides.
BUT - as Marc highlights - the fun
It's great to see another format where TW can provide a solution as a dynamic (e)book.
I hope I am reading this correctly - but the idea you have it to produce a collective TWebook
- pristine -organised -well presented.
distribute it and allow for each file distributed the ability for the reader / user to add THEIR comments, extra stories and perspectives.
and make THAT function easy.... really easy.
Whilst I totally believe that a hybrid TW5 could produce that.....
it may take time and be lower down the list than we'd like.
My solution currently is to purchase a www.padlet.com account ($US29pa ) and add unique "padlets" as embeds to each TWeBook
It does mean adding a unique embed code to each new copy of the TWebook for distribution.
but the uniqueness, readability and dynamics of padlet make that an awesome option.
padlet don't do a great job of opening the eyes and imaginations of the users that well..
but padlet is an IDEAL choice as any and all of these page ( tiddler ) options in your book :
- gallery
- journal
- notes
- copied docs ( such as Scout recipes )
- storytelling ( a Scout tradition )
- dynamic events listing ( which can also be easily "pulled in" via iframe code )
- inspirations
its also instantly renders :
- mp3, mp4, avi
- ppt, doc, pdf, txt, rtf, etc etc
- png, svg, bmp, gif, jpg etc etc
and is my go to now that dropbox is discontinuing its rendering / hosting service.
I am excited by the interest developing on the recent "swing" to TW5 being used, recognised and further enhanced as a storytelling application.
Like most of the TW fraternity we predominantly use TW5 files as collections of information in snippets and related parts.
Linked easily by CamelCasing and markdown.
And I'm sure we all get a "tingle of excitement" when a cool addition, plugin or slice of code makes it more dynamic.
But - to what end?
Yep - as a wiki - it is great. The best!
As a storytelling device - as clumsy or incomplete as WE may see it - TW5 makes ePub look ugly and old as a book delivery format.
And ePub trails behind TW5 in the dynamics which are possible - AND - the emjoyable reading experience it provides.
BUT - as Marc highlights - the fun
Message has been deleted
Marc Ferguson
Nov 21, 2016, 10:29:15 PM11/21/16
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Thanks for your nod of support. I don't want to get in the way of providing ePub type stuff. Perhaps a new thread but I don't know how to start it.
I'm thinking that TW is pretty useful as it is and could make some great dynamic textbooks or notebook where a basic accelerometer is all you need.
Marc
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RichardWilliamSmith
Nov 22, 2016, 4:39:33 PM11/22/16
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To start a new thread just click "new topic" on the main page of the group.
Although it's not exactly the same thing, you may be interested in Dickon Bevington's extensive use of tiddlywiki for producing clinical manuals. http://tiddlymanuals.tiddlyspace.com/
Regards,
Richard
John Newell
Nov 22, 2016, 5:42:46 PM11/22/16
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Thanks - and "hi" Richard.......
I am aware of the TiddlyManuals - an extensive project that - in my humble opinion - is great as a resource - but not as a "good read"
It works as a manual.
But have you tried opening it in a mobile device? ( several accessibility issues! )
For those of us who love the original TW - TW5 is far better and more accessible - which I believe is one of it's more desirable attributes.
Tiddly Manuals
I am aware of the TiddlyManuals - an extensive project that - in my humble opinion - is great as a resource - but not as a "good read"
It works as a manual.
But have you tried opening it in a mobile device? ( several accessibility issues! )
For those of us who love the original TW - TW5 is far better and more accessible - which I believe is one of it's more desirable attributes.
Tiddly Manuals
Marc Ferguson
Nov 22, 2016, 6:51:03 PM11/22/16
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Thank you I will take a look.
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