[Suggestion] Be your own Way Back Machine ... ?

[TiddlyTweeter]

The archival imperative of https://archive.org/web/ is brilliant.

Thinking about it was struck that maybe it is common sense to safely archive one's own wikis too.

But how? Where? When?

Just an open question.

TT

[Javier Eduardo Rojas Romero]

On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 10:57:52AM -0700, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
> The archival imperative of https://archive.org/web/ is brilliant.
>
> Thinking about it was struck that maybe it is common sense to safely
> archive one's own wikis too.
>
> But how? Where? When?

If you don't mind doing it manually, you can use Pinboard
(https://pinboard.in); it's a (paid) bookmarking service that enables
you to not only bookmark a page and associate tags to it, but also
perform a snapshot of it (if you choose that subscription plan).

Usually those snapshots only save the page's contents, and don't save
any external resources; but, since tiddlywiki pages are completely
self-contained, the snapshot generated by pinboard works properly; see
for example https://pinboard.in/cached/2d6fe5320767/ , which is a
snapshot I generated for http://musicsheets.tiddlyspot.com/

Cheers,

--
Javier

[Javier Eduardo Rojas Romero]

On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 04:14:50PM -0500, Javier Eduardo Rojas Romero wrote:
> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 10:57:52AM -0700, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
> > The archival imperative of https://archive.org/web/ is brilliant.
> >
> > Thinking about it was struck that maybe it is common sense to safely
> > archive one's own wikis too.
> >
> > But how? Where? When?

> ... see

> for example https://pinboard.in/cached/2d6fe5320767/ , which is a
> snapshot I generated for http://musicsheets.tiddlyspot.com/

Apologies, I just noticed that only registered users can see that
snapshot, which makes the exercise kinda moot.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Javier

Nice to meet someone who still understands what "MOOT" means :-).

Javier Rojas wrote:

> ... see
> for example https://pinboard.in/cached/2d6fe5320767/ , which is a
> snapshot I generated for http://musicsheets.tiddlyspot.com/

Apologies, I just noticed that only registered users can see that
snapshot, which makes the exercise kinda moot.

Just to explain a bit more, which I think you already understand. 

We use TW with the belief it will work in 30 years.

But its no good if in 30 years my great-grandchildren cannot find my stuff AFTER I snuffed it.

I DO think that LONG-TERM-MEMORY on the internet is actually very fragile, and IF you want to preserve what you write you do need to do extra steps.

Slightly anal, but not a million miles away from the truth,

Best wishes, TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

I think it worth adding to my somewhat gnostic post that SO FAR the internet is far more fragile than PRINT.

TT

[Jon Light]

I could not agree more.

In the field to which my Tiddlywiki use relates I am a regular visitor to https://archive.org/web/ to try and restore the 'memory' of the community interested in this field.

People who have been considered important contributors have died and not taken measures to preserve their online output.

Its difficult, awkward and often impossible to contact loved ones to ask for permissions.

Sometimes a limited number of people will have a copy but they are unsure whether they are allowed to copy, reproduce or pass on.

Its not just a matter of the longevity of the medium its also about people making sure that their legacy in terms of books, papers, articles is clearly taken care of in their will and that their loved ones are aware of their wishes.

I have restored several entire websites on my hard-drive that no longer exist online except via https://archive.org/web/.

>>I think it worth adding to my somewhat gnostic post that SO FAR the internet is far more fragile than PRINT.

The evidence so far is on your side! :-)

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ha! that is a great way to convey the issue I was trying to get at in the OP! 

TX! 

jonligh...@gmail.com wrote:

TT >>I think it worth adding to my somewhat gnostic post that SO FAR the internet is far more fragile than PRINT.

[Mark S.]

So you think we should put all our stuff in a cave in France?

We were watching a show from S. Korea, and came across something interesting. Apparently they have walk-in kiosks where you can visit the ashes and memorabilia of your ancestors. The walls are lined with terrarium-like glass boxes with the vases, images, etc. inside. Family members (apparently) have keys, so they can open the boxes and update the contents. That seems like the ideal place to store a digital USB stick filled with all your "important" writings. Of course, no one knows how long those USB sticks will last. Technically inscriptions on clay tablets will last for centuries, but it's hard to put a lot on a single tablet.

That all would allow someone who is really motivated to review your words of wisdom down through the ages. But if you want the rest of the world to find it, then you're stuck with either libraries or the internet. To get into libraries, you need to write a really good book that won't go out of print. Good luck with that. I know books I liked as a kid are no longer available. Oh, even books by classic authors have been banned and pulled from publication.

A newer idea is to embed your work into etherium or similar NFT .But of course, we have no clue how long these ledgers will continue to be maintained.

In the future, people will encode information into DNA and slip it into their own genome. Then they really will pass their wisdom down to their children.

[Soren Bjornstad]

Check out the Rosetta Disk, which aims to preserve the basics of thousands of languages in a form that will survive and remain readable with changing technology, and could be widely distributed.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote:

So you think we should put all our stuff in a cave in France?

Lol!

Thanks for the post, it is interesting. Especially this bit ...

 

We were watching a show from S. Korea, and came across something interesting. Apparently they have walk-in kiosks where you can visit the ashes and memorabilia of your ancestors. The walls are lined with terrarium-like glass boxes with the vases, images, etc. inside. Family members (apparently) have keys, so they can open the boxes and update the contents. That seems like the ideal place to store a digital USB stick filled with all your "important" writings. Of course, no one knows how long those USB sticks will last. Technically inscriptions on clay tablets will last for centuries, but it's hard to put a lot on a single tablet.

USB is solid state storage. It is finite. Its longevity is not good if you want something working in 100 years or even 15.

Just FYI, for photographs of the art of Angela Weyersberg, I will burn Blu-ray "M-Disks" that have a life of (claimed) of up to 1000 years.  

Whether any internet 2021 browser in 3021 would work is a moot point. :-) 

PRINTING them out too would be advisable :-).

... you need to write a really good book that won't go out of print. Good luck with that. 

That is also an interesting issue. Just FWIW, I printed, for my dad, a small book he wrote on the history of his village. There were like 4 copies. 

The most important one donated to two Libraries for the area. It is still existent and often taken out on loan, even after he passed.

Thanks for your comments, relevant!

Best wishes, TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Soren Bjornstad wrote:

Check out the Rosetta Disk, which aims to preserve the basics of thousands of languages in a form that will survive and remain readable with changing technology, and could be widely distributed.

Yeah. I am an anthropologist by background and the incentive behind the Rosetta Disk makes great sense to me. 

But looking at the actual way those dying language palimpsests are encoded it not exactly "fall-off-the-shelf" easy to understand though!

Best wishes

TT

[Mark S.]

On Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 4:16:41 AM UTC-7 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

USB is solid state storage. It is finite. Its longevity is not good if you want something working in 100 years or even 15.

Just FYI, for photographs of the art of Angela Weyersberg, I will burn Blu-ray "M-Disks" that have a life of (claimed) of up to 1000 years.  

Whether any internet 2021 browser in 3021 would work is a moot point. :-) 

PRINTING them out too would be advisable :-).

My experience with disks ended with writable DVDs. I don't know if Blue ray was better, but I found they often had many, many errors. Often a disk would be unreadable by other DVD players. The moveable heads in the players/writers would easily go out of adjustment. I remember spending a miserable afternoon with a pile of unusable discs. By contrast, most of my solid state  USB's have at least worked at a minimal level. Errors in flash drive's accumulate as they are used, rather than as they sit in a box. So I suspect a stick kept in a cool, dry place wrapped in foil or some other Faraday cage should survive well. Take them out every decade and re-record to a new stick.

Re your dad's book. Catch-22. If no one takes it out, they throw it out because it is irrelevant. If people do check it out, then the book becomes lost or too ratty. You know, I think gutenberg may accept new books if the holder of the copyright is willing to relinquish the copy rights. They have all sorts of obscure works. Putting your works into the hands of an organization that will, hopefully, carry on generation after generation, might be another stab at immortality. 

[TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote:

TiddlyTweeter wrote:

USB is solid state storage. It is finite. Its longevity is not good if you want something working in 100 years or even 15.

Just FYI, for photographs of the art of Angela Weyersberg, I will burn Blu-ray "M-Disks" that have a life of (claimed) of up to 1000 years.  

Whether any internet 2021 browser in 3021 would work is a moot point. :-) 

PRINTING them out too would be advisable :-).

 

My experience with disks ended with writable DVDs. I don't know if Blue ray was better, but I found they often had many, many errors. Often a disk would be unreadable by other DVD players. The moveable heads in the players/writers would easily go out of adjustment.

True! I constantly watch movies for my work. I get through about 3 cheap computer DVD players a year.

The ones you plug into a TV, rather than computer, are slightly more robust. About 1 every two years needs replacing.

 

... I suspect a stick kept in a cool, dry place wrapped in foil or some other Faraday cage should survive well. Take them out every decade and re-record to a new stick.

If ONLY your relatives will have your exquisite Faraday Appreciation! :-) 

Re your dad's book. Catch-22. If no one takes it out, they throw it out because it is irrelevant. If people do check it out, then the book becomes lost or too ratty.

RIGHT. But an issue that is orthogonal to digital encode. 

The issue with PHYSICAL STUFF is it can get "lost" or "destroyed" or "uncatalogued" -- BUT it is a quite different issue in the sense the OBJECT is incarnate already. 

My point in the OP was really between the fragility of stuff ON A MACHINE v. MATERIAL EXISTENCE. 

IMO stuff "on to machine" is far more fragile than many of us Grok.

Anyway your comments were clarifying. Tx!

Best wishes, TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Qualcuno capirà come resuscitare i miei documenti tra trent'anni?