My going forward "pet name" for TiddlyWiki

[Charlie Veniot]

TiddlyWiki = TW Hypertext Solutions Platform ?

That smacked me from out of nowhere just a few minutes ago.

It kind of captures "everything" for me.  Well, some solutions might be "heavy" hypertext, some "barely there" hypertext, and everywhere in between.

[Osin]

Steve, who designed the DesignWriteStudio course starts off by introducing Hypertext, so you're onto something.

[TW Tones]

Hypertext was the idea that proceeded the WWW and includes  Hypercard(s) and Stacks of them (List) 

Hypertext Solutions Platform  HSP is not too bad Charlie.

Although does this mean we then need to teach the concepts behind hypertext or is much of this general knowledge?

This seems worth reading through for ideas https://www.nngroup.com/articles/hypertext-history/

Regards

Tones

[Charlie Veniot]

Ugh.  Acronyms.  I had not thought that far.

I imagine I was primarily focused on keeping and adorning "TW" ("TW" being something I like for, on the sly, sort of not lose "TiddlyWiki" in any potential future re-branding.)

TWHSP.  Now I'm thinking of potential fun with  "TEE-DUBYA-EITCH-ESS-PEE"?

"card" turns me off for some weird reason (gets me semantically glitching?).

Regardless, I wound up starting this thread of discussion, and getting "hypertext" whilst reading the "Wiki" Wikipedia article.

The plan when looking at that article: a little bit of word inspiration for my résumé.  Then I got sidetracked by the "TW hypertext solution platform" thought.

Yup, mind always spinning, getting nowhere fast...

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Charlie

Interesting thought.  "TiddlyWiki = TW Hypertext Solutions Platform ? " is broad but maybe not broad enough? 

What I mean is that "Hypertext" is the language of Web pages---which TW does well and can innovate with endlessly (with CSS applique work :-). Much to its credit.

But the "problem" is the JavaScript components.

Briefly speaking: TW is Hypertext controlled by a JS "decision machine ..." Its pretty much a Application!?

Thoughts

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Charlie ...

   "card" turns me off for some weird reason (gets me semantically glitching?).  

Right. Me too. Card / record has an implying very bound up with database histories. I actually think the TW "fragment" is actually NOT that. It is quite distant form such "pre-structuring" concepts.

Of course one COULD USE TW as a "card-base" / "data-base". And that is a perfectly valid Application of it. But I don't think it is intrinsically that way at all.

MY interest in TW stems from interest in "realizable semantics". What I mean is a tool that lets different ways of depicting and structuring knowledge/experience emerge incrementally.

Best wishes

TT

[Charlie Veniot]

G'day TT, and Happy Tuesday Eve to all !

Ooooooo, I like what you're adding to the thread!

That said, my "Hypertext is ..." thinking is much in line with this bit from the Hypertext Wikipedia article:

Hypertext is text displayed on a computer display or other electronic devices with references (hyperlinks) to other text that the reader can immediately access.[1] Hypertext documents are interconnected by hyperlinks, which are typically activated by a mouse click, keypress set, or by touching the screen. Apart from text, the term "hypertext" is also sometimes used to describe tables, images, and other presentational content formats with integrated hyperlinks. Hypertext is one of the key underlying concepts of the World Wide Web,[2] where Web pages are often written in the Hypertext Markup Language (HTML). As implemented on the Web, hypertext enables the easy-to-use publication of information over the Internet.

Types and uses of hypertext

Hypertext documents can either be static (prepared and stored in advance) or dynamic (continually changing in response to user input, such as dynamic web pages). Static hypertext can be used to cross-reference collections of data in documents, software applications, or books on CDs. A well-constructed system can also incorporate other user-interface conventions, such as menus and command lines. Links used in a hypertext document usually replace the current piece of hypertext with the destination document. A lesser known feature is StretchText, which expands or contracts the content in place, thereby giving more control to the reader in determining the level of detail of the displayed document. Some implementations support transclusion, where text or other content is included by reference and automatically rendered in place.

Hypertext can be used to support very complex and dynamic systems of linking and cross-referencing. The most famous implementation of hypertext is the World Wide Web, written in the final months of 1990 and released on the Internet in 1991.

So, I guess, in the spirit of "InfoMaps", i.e. all about mapping method, and not so much presentation (i.e. CSS) and not so much "elaborate" dynamism (i.e. javascript).  Purist me then thinks of pure HTML as the language of the web, with TiddlyWiki filtering (and HTML5 stuff)   as "light" dynamism.

All of that to say that my stubborn view of HTML makes me rather useless including CSS and javascript as part of (pure-ish) hypertext.

We could probably call my condition "the-peas-must-not-touch-the-mashed-potatoes" syndrome.  Yet, I still want it all covered in gravy... 

[Charlie Veniot]

TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Charlie ...

   "card" turns me off for some weird reason (gets me semantically glitching?).  

Right. Me too. Card / record has an implying very bound up with database histories. I actually think the TW "fragment" is actually NOT that. It is quite distant form such "pre-structuring" concepts.

Repeat my "dammit-bravo" below.  I view tiddlers as either "fragment tiddlers" or "fragment aggregation tiddlers."  I just can't let go of the word "tiddler", both because of my semantic attachment to the word and, I can't help it: the word makes me smile 'cause it is so cute (cue my version of "it's so fluffy!" from "Despicable Me".)

 

Of course one COULD USE TW as a "card-base" / "data-base". And that is a perfectly valid Application of it. But I don't think it is intrinsically that way at all.

Dammit, that's exactly what I think, but just could not figure out how to say it.  That strikes a major chord with me.  Bravo !

 

MY interest in TW stems from interest in "realizable semantics". What I mean is a tool that lets different ways of depicting and structuring knowledge/experience emerge incrementally.

Ditto!  All in the spirit of Knowledge Componentization (I'm a big fan of that article.)

 

[Soren Bjornstad]

Charlie Veniot wrote:

TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Charlie ...

   "card" turns me off for some weird reason (gets me semantically glitching?).  

Right. Me too. Card / record has an implying very bound up with database histories. I actually think the TW "fragment" is actually NOT that. It is quite distant form such "pre-structuring" concepts.

Here's an additional aspect, which was bothering me back when I was reading the thread last week about possible alternative names for TiddlyWiki and, more relevant here, tiddlers, but I couldn't quite place it until now. I love index cards, and they're very flexible, but they're objects; they don't do anything themselves. You write them, you read them, you tag them, you reorder them, you filter them, you group them, but at the end of the day they're pieces of data in a single format that you, an actor outside the system of cards, are manipulating. Tiddlers aren't like that at all. Tiddlers behave like data, yes, but they also behave like templates and tags and filters and calculators and bulletin boards and highlighters. Tiddlers do the sorting and filtering on other tiddlers; the distinction between actor and data is gone, and it's all one system that loops back on itself.

[Charlie Veniot]

Oooooo, I think you're getting to my semantic hiccup with "cards".

To me, a "card" represents an object.  For example: a recipe, a business client, etc. 

On the card, there's all kinds of data on it.  Recipe might have ingredients and measures, and instructions like cooking time and temperature.

And that's where tiddler comes in.  A tiddler may be just a bit of data.  A tiddler might transclude a whole bunch of other tiddlers to present all data as a "card".  A tiddler might have no data at all (i.e. not even be a "fragment"): a tiddler could be a transclusion template, or an image, or a script, etc. etc.

So a bit more why I love "tiddler".  A nice abstract word that doesn't ascribe any purpose/stereotype. Something like that ...

[TW Tones]

I was fumbling my way around tiddlywiki.com and came across this following SVG tiddler,  "Tiddler Fishes.svg"

The thought occurred,  perhaps we are just not promoting the idea of tiddlers and a wiki of them enough. As they say "in for a penny, in for a pound".

Perhaps we are not taking ownership of the original idea of Jeremy's about tiddlers and their multifunctional use, perhaps we just need to explain and promote the "story". Then no need to name change, already if you search for tiddler you get descriptive definitions. We just need to add to this more information and stop this desire to rename tiddlywiki etc...

The value of defining your own term is invaluable, sure it is like cards, fragments, records  etc.. but if you own a term, you need to ensure people understand it. Define it publicly.

eg;

Tiddlers are small pieces of information you can organise however you want, but they also control the user interface, settings and a lot more in tiddlywiki. They can acts as index cards, notes, fragments and records you may find in other applications or databases, so we felt we needed a new name "tiddler", to represent this very flexible unit of information.

Regards

Tones

[Charlie Veniot]

Good stuff, Tones !  I like that direction.

Some thoughts (not necessarily in love with my choice of words below), standing tall on Tones' shoulders:

A tiddler is the most primitive/basic multi-purpose building block in TiddlyWiki.

Some example purposes of a tiddler:

* as an atomic data store  (for example, to store either "true" or "false" values related to a check box)

* reference data values (a data tiddler as a miniature database)

* content analogous to a record,

* content relating to a topic

* pure aggregator of other tiddlers via transclusion

* a fragment of information

* a representation of some metaphor, like "card", or "note", or "logbook entry", etc. etc.

* a script, or a collection of scripts

* a transclusion template

* a tiddler creation template ()

* an image

* etc. etc. etc.

* any number of purposes combined in one tiddler

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Soren ...

... I love index cards, and they're very flexible, but they're objects; they don't do anything themselves.

Right. FYI, just in the actions of a CREATOR, cards can do amazing things! The Zettelkasten thing emerged as a celebration of the (physical-card-index) mind of sociologist Niklas Luhmann. Point being: it was A celebration of that vast card-isation he brilliantly made for HIS purposes.

 

You write them, you read them, you tag them, you reorder them, you filter them, you group them, but at the end of the day they're pieces of data in a single format that you, an actor outside the system of cards, are manipulating. Tiddlers aren't like that at all. Tiddlers behave like data, yes, but they also behave like templates and tags and filters and calculators and bulletin boards and highlighters. Tiddlers do the sorting and filtering on other tiddlers; the distinction between actor and data is gone, and it's all one system that loops back on itself.

Right. My take on all this is that the "Tiddler Architecture"  of TW is totally AGNOSTIC on what an end-user does in THEIR way of thinking or "organizing".

TBH, that "agnosticism" is one of its most useful characteristics. There is no whip-boy telling anyone what THEIR data should look like or that it should be a regular database.

Best wishes

TT

[Charlie Veniot]

Agnostic re thinking and organization?  That is a right fantastic quality-description.

Now you have me thinking about "adjectives" to describe TiddlyWiki qualities.

If anybody else wants to join in on this "word game" (?), I submit these add-ons to TT's perfect start:  unpretentious and non-prescriptive.

Yeah, I love Scrabble.  Not particularly good at it, but love it...

[ludwa6]

Wild Card Wiki ::  It's what you make of it.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Charlie Veniot wrote:

... thinking about "adjectives" to describe TiddlyWiki qualities.

... unpretentious and non-prescriptive.

Right. And actually that idea of working from an "neutral/agnostic" base is good. 

You capture something very WELL with your "UNs".

But, I guess a end-user question might be: How hard will be that journey to my Graceland?

Best wishes

TT 

[Charlie Veniot]

On Friday, January 22, 2021 at 5:17:51 AM UTC-4 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

You capture something very WELL with your "UNs".

Me being a huge fan of "Whose Line Is It Anyway", I just can't help but read that and adorn it:

You capture something very WELL with your "UNs", if you know what I mean.

That aside, I get really excited when anybody says anything in a way that is totally new to me.  In a "Wait till they get a load of me" Joker-ish way, I find myself scheming some new and creative expressive possibilities ...  

So much fun.  Thanks !