Composite tiddler with 5 transclusions chokes TW

207 views
Skip to first unread message

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 12, 2020, 9:10:43 AM5/12/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
I have compiled a tiddler that takes in 5 other tiddlers by means of transclusions

Composite tiddler
[[Tid 1]]
{{Tid 1||TE}}

[[Tid 2]]
{{Tid 2||TE}}

[[Tid 3]]
{{Tid 3||TE}}

[[Tid 4]]
{{Tid 4||TE}}

[[Tid 5]]
{{Tid 5||TE}}

Note: the TE bit is to have Mark S.'s inline edit code.

My issue is that when I open the Composite tiddler my TW tab in my browser freezes.
So, doing more than 1, 2 or 3 transclusions in 1 tiddler is the maximum, is that right or am I missing something?

--
Securely sent with Tutanota. Get your own encrypted, ad-free mailbox:

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 12, 2020, 9:20:08 AM5/12/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
1 further question:

how can I delete the composite tid without opening it?


Date: 12 May 2020, 16:10
Subject: [tw5] Composite tiddler with 5 transclusions chokes TW

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

Mark S.

unread,
May 12, 2020, 9:42:59 AM5/12/20
to TiddlyWiki
I'm wondering if there is some interaction with some other plugin you may be using. Are you using anything?

There shouldn't be any limit on serial transclusions (transclusions within transclusions ... maybe).

For instance, I have:

{{gardenaj-1||TE}}
{{gardenaj-2||TE}}
{{gardenaj-3||TE}}
{{gardenaj-4||TE}}
{{gardenaj-5||TE}}
{{gardenaj-6||TE}}

No problem.

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 12, 2020, 9:49:01 AM5/12/20
to 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Mark,

These are the plug-ins I have - see the 3 screenshots attached.



12 May 2020, 16:42 by tiddl...@googlegroups.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
plug1.png
plug2.png
plug3.png

Mark S.

unread,
May 12, 2020, 10:03:16 AM5/12/20
to TiddlyWiki
Whoa! That's a lot of plugins. I'm guessing that one or more are "competing" for the same space. Purely a guess, but I would think something like "relink" might get confused. Does it work any better if you remove the links?
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

PMario

unread,
May 12, 2020, 10:41:04 AM5/12/20
to TiddlyWiki
Hi,

You should open an empty.html and try marks plugin alone, just to be sure, it's the right address.

-m

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 12, 2020, 11:43:08 AM5/12/20
to 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
A lot of plug-ins? Is there a maximum one should use?

The TW is fine, all tids open. But when I want to open that composite one, or even link another tid to it, TW freezes.


12 May 2020, 17:03 by tiddl...@googlegroups.com:
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

Mark S.

unread,
May 12, 2020, 12:53:59 PM5/12/20
to TiddlyWiki
It's not the number of plugins per se. It's just that the more you have installed, especially from disparate authors, the more likely there is to be some sort of conflict. The conflict may be subtle.

Anything that has to do with links and transclusions, like relink, freelink, etc. would be a prime suspect.

You happened to discover some sort of conflict while using my code. But it's likely that it will have similar problems whenever you have some arrangement of transclusions and links. The only way to know for sure is to try the code in an empty TW, while adding back in plugins. Each time remembering to save and reload. Or do it the other way. Start with a spare copy of your file and delete plugins one by one, saving and reloading each time.

But first, like PMario suggested, you can prove to yourself that it's not my code, by running tests in an empty TW file.

Good luck!

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 13, 2020, 3:03:59 AM5/13/20
to 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Transclusions were working fine, until I made that composite tiddler.

I have been actively adding David Gifford's tooltips to internal links. So, if Tid 1 links to Tid 2 and Tid 2 links to Tid 3 and Tid 3 to Tid 4, then in Tid 1's one can hover of the link to Tid 2 to see Tid 2 in a tooltip.
In that tooltip the link to Tid 3 will be visible and hoverable, but Tid 4 won't be. Jeremy made it clear it does not go ad infinitum. 

Still, could it be that this causes my composite transclusion tid's problem? After all, the tooltip code includes transclusion. Have I stumbled upon the limit of the tooltip?



12 May 2020, 19:53 by tiddl...@googlegroups.com:
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

PMario

unread,
May 13, 2020, 6:47:51 AM5/13/20
to TiddlyWiki
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 9:03:59 AM UTC+2, Peter Buyze wrote:
Transclusions were working fine, until I made that composite tiddler.

I have been actively adding David Gifford's tooltips to internal links. So, if Tid 1 links to Tid 2 and Tid 2 links to Tid 3 and Tid 3 to Tid 4, then in Tid 1's one can hover of the link to Tid 2 to see Tid 2 in a tooltip.
In that tooltip the link to Tid 3 will be visible and hoverable, but Tid 4 won't be. Jeremy made it clear it does not go ad infinitum. 

If there is a construction as you describe it, it is very likely, that you created an infinite loop. It has to be handled at the plugin / macro level.

To find out, where the problem comes from, the easiest way is, to import plugins 1 by 1 into an empty html and see if the problem comes up.
The plugin loaded last is very likely the one that causes the problem.

The TW core has some checks built in. So it is able to show some info if you transclude a tiddler into itself. ...

But "complex" user code can't be "protected" without adding strict rules about usage patterns.

have fun!
mario

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 13, 2020, 7:37:37 AM5/13/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
Thanks PMario.

I downloaded an empty TiddlyBlink, imported all my tiddlers and added no plug-ins. The infamous composite tiddler could not be opened.

I then did the same with an empty TW file, and still the infamous composite tiddler could not be opened. Conclusion: that tiddler, somehow, is corrupted.

So, the next step would be to import all my tiddlers bar that one. How can I export all my tiddlers and only leave 1 out?



13 May 2020, 13:47 by pmar...@gmail.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

PMario

unread,
May 13, 2020, 7:46:04 AM5/13/20
to TiddlyWiki
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 1:37:37 PM UTC+2, Peter Buyze wrote:
Thanks PMario.

I downloaded an empty TiddlyBlink, imported all my tiddlers and added no plug-ins. The infamous composite tiddler could not be opened.

I then did the same with an empty TW file, and still the infamous composite tiddler could not be opened. Conclusion: that tiddler, somehow, is corrupted.

That's strange if there is a problem with empty. ... Which TW version do you use?  ... see: ControlPanel : Info tab.
How does the TE tiddler from your OP look like?

[[Tid 1]]
{{Tid 1||TE}}    <--- I do need this TE tiddler!

-m


Peter Buyze

unread,
May 13, 2020, 8:21:32 AM5/13/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
PMario, I use TW 5.1.22.

The composite tiddler is a very simple one consisting of 5 transclusions as in my OP

What do you mean by "I do need this TE tiddler"?


13 May 2020, 14:46 by pmar...@gmail.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

TonyM

unread,
May 13, 2020, 9:59:27 AM5/13/20
to TiddlyWiki
Peter,

Can you rebuild your composite tiddler, adding each transclusion at a time?

  • If you can share a jason of all related tiddlers I/others can put on tiddlywiki.com it may help, even if the problem does not occur there, although idealy it would.
  • Please also provide a link to marks TE tiddler. I have used otherways (possibly) to achieve the same results.
Regards
Tony


On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 22:21:32 UTC+10, Peter Buyze wrote:
PMario, I use TW 5.1.22.

The composite tiddler is a very simple one consisting of 5 transclusions as in my OP

What do you mean by "I do need this TE tiddler"?


13 May 2020, 14:46 by pmar...@gmail.com:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 1:37:37 PM UTC+2, Peter Buyze wrote:
Thanks PMario.

I downloaded an empty TiddlyBlink, imported all my tiddlers and added no plug-ins. The infamous composite tiddler could not be opened.

I then did the same with an empty TW file, and still the infamous composite tiddler could not be opened. Conclusion: that tiddler, somehow, is corrupted.

That's strange if there is a problem with empty. ... Which TW version do you use?  ... see: ControlPanel : Info tab.
How does the TE tiddler from your OP look like?

[[Tid 1]]
{{Tid 1||TE}}    <--- I do need this TE tiddler!

-m



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 13, 2020, 11:30:29 PM5/13/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
TonyM,

I want to put the relevant tiddlers on Tiddlyspot, but the problem is I cannot export them because when I try to open them TW freezes because they are linked to that corrupt composite tiddler.

So, I need to delete the composite tiddler but don't know how to do that since I cannot open it.



13 May 2020, 16:59 by anthony...@gmail.com:
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

Birthe C

unread,
May 14, 2020, 12:22:07 AM5/14/20
to TiddlyWiki
Would you be able to create a tiddler with the same title in another TW? Import it to the one with the problem. Overwriting the cumbersome one. The last one you should be able to delete afterwards.

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 14, 2020, 1:46:10 AM5/14/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
Birthe,

Yes, that worked !! Once again, a very simple, practical instruction. In fact, so simple that I say to myself "why didn't I think of that?"

Oh well, 1 day I will get there ;-)
Thanks again Birthe, I was already bracing myself for the inevitable decision to have to scrap my entire TW file.


14 May 2020, 07:22 by strikke...@gmail.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 14, 2020, 3:45:39 AM5/14/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
Hey TonyM,

I got the corrupt composite tiddler sorted out thanks to Birthe. So, I have uploaded to Tiddlyspot (http://peterspottiddly.tiddlyspot.com/) the following:

  1. Uncertainty - description, reaction, management: this is the new composite tiddler, which is empty as of yet. I would like to transclude all the other tiddlers there, except the TE.
  2. TE: that is Mark S. tiddler to allow inline editing of the transcluded tiddlers. You can see the code in Edit mode.
  3.  5 tiddlers that I transcluded before but which corrupted the tiddler mentioned in point 1.
I did the transclusions as per the schema in my OP in this thread. I have also dragged/dropped David Gifford's plu-ins for pop-up tooltips when hovering over a link.

Is there anything you can spot that is wrong?


13 May 2020, 16:59 by anthony...@gmail.com:
Peter,
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

TonyM

unread,
May 14, 2020, 4:11:57 AM5/14/20
to TiddlyWiki
Peter

Try the transclusions on a downloaded copy and see how it goes.

My suspicion is you are transcluding something that transclude something else until one of these transcluded one already transcluded and you get an infinate loop.

Pretend you are the computer and read through each tiddler to see if one transcludess itself indirectly.

Then I suggest you develop a way to choose what tiddlers to transclude even if it is almost all.

Regards
Tont

Birthe C

unread,
May 14, 2020, 4:14:15 AM5/14/20
to TiddlyWiki
Peter,

Try looking at your tiddler Face uncertainty. In this tiddler you hover uncertainty. In the popup, you are able to hover Face uncertainty, and look where that got you. Recursive transclusion error. That is even before you try to transclude that tiddler with the TE template.

Birthe

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 14, 2020, 4:25:42 AM5/14/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
TonyM,
Jeremy himself stated that infinite loops are impossible.


14 May 2020, 11:11 by anthony...@gmail.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 14, 2020, 4:30:01 AM5/14/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
Ah Birthe, thanks for that.

So, if I understand this problem correctly, it means that if I use the pop-up tooltip I should not use transclusions like I did as well because it could cause that problem by accident if I am not careful.


14 May 2020, 11:14 by strikke...@gmail.com:
Peter,

Try looking at your tiddler Face uncertainty. In this tiddler you hover uncertainty. In the popup, you are able to hover Face uncertainty, and look where that got you. Recursive transclusion error. That is even before you try to transclude that tiddler with the TE template.

Birthe


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

Birthe C

unread,
May 14, 2020, 4:33:50 AM5/14/20
to TiddlyWiki
Peter,

Not totally serious ;-) BUT:
When we think in circles long enough we end up with a headache. Tiddlywiki do too, but often realise it before we do. It IS like our own brain.

Birthe

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 14, 2020, 5:45:06 AM5/14/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
Birthe, thanks again, for a very practical, specific solution.


14 May 2020, 11:33 by strikke...@gmail.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

TonyM

unread,
May 14, 2020, 7:45:04 AM5/14/20
to TiddlyWiki
Peter

If I remember the context I think it was impossible in that case. Even the toc macros test to ensure no infinite loops. I have caused them a dozen times myself.

I will share more tomorrow

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 14, 2020, 8:18:34 AM5/14/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
No worries TonyM, the issue is resolved.


14 May 2020, 14:45 by anthony...@gmail.com:
Peter

If I remember the context I think it was impossible in that case. Even the toc macros test to ensure no infinite loops. I have caused them a dozen times myself.

I will share more tomorrow

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

PMario

unread,
May 14, 2020, 2:00:07 PM5/14/20
to TiddlyWiki
On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 2:18:34 PM UTC+2, Peter Buyze wrote:
No worries TonyM, the issue is resolved.

OK. .. Good!

What was the problem. Just as a reference for others ;)

-m

Peter Buyze

unread,
May 14, 2020, 11:25:52 PM5/14/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
An apparent infinite loop in the pop-up tooltips, as per Birthe's discovery mentioned above.



14 May 2020, 21:00 by pmar...@gmail.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages