Notion encourages busy work

[Diego Mesa]

Hello all,

I came across this article on HN today and found the comments to be an interesting look into a "competitor". As people are explaining their gripes with Notion, this could represent a big opportunity for TW!

Article:

https://medium.com/diesdas-direct/notion-encourages-busy-work-and-im-tired-of-it-b1e049edb663

HN comments:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23050204

Diego

[Birthe C]

Diego,

When I read the following:

By far the biggest gripe I have is that a tool should be a means to an end and get out of the way—but with Notion building the tool often becomes the end in itself.

Something we could recognise?

Birthe

[Mat]

Birthe C wrote:

By far the biggest gripe I have is that a tool should be a means to an end and get out of the way—but with Notion building the tool often becomes the end in itself.

Something we could recognise?

What on earth are you talking about, Birthe? 

Joking aside: Many people, myself obviously included, enjoy the very hacking in TW and I think these people - or at least posts from them - are over-represented in the discussion group. Pushing the limits means you hit things that are not solved so you have to discuss and make noise. Also, we don't measure how people use TW so we don't really know what people do...

<:-)

[Saq Imtiaz]

Personally, I find that for me everything mentioned about busy work applies to TW as well.

Since I first came across TW in 2007, the only time I've actually used it personally (and not for work) on a regular basis is the last two and a half years. The fact that this time period overlaps precisely with a time in which I haven't fiddled with or tweaked TW at all, is not lost on me.

[David Gifford]

I looked into Notion and quickly saw that it would become just that, busy work.

I also echo everyone else's sentiments that TiddlyWiki has the same effect on me. Endless tweaking.

I find for writing / producing, an outliner like Dynalist or Roam is best.

For taking notes on reading, I am using my Idea Stew (a version of TiddlyBlink) and finding it to be the best system for me. No more tweaking needed.

[Peter Buyze]

Birthe,

Good point. That's what has struck me about what's going on with some TW users: tinkering for the sake of tinkering. A priori there is nothing wrong with that, but at the end of the day I still look upon TW as a tool to get a job done. One can drive in the fanciest automobile, but at the end of the day it is still only a vehicle to get you from A to B.

3 May 2020, 16:30 by strikke...@gmail.com:

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[Peter Buyze]

David,

how does Idea Stew fit into all this?

I understand TiddlyBlink is a completed project, nothing new will be added but it will continue to exist. It is in effect superseded by Stroll. Will Idea Stew continue to exist in parallel with the other 2? Is it also considered a completed project?

3 May 2020, 17:40 by dgif...@crcna.org:

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[Jed Carty]

Before I made Bob about 90% of what I did with tiddlywiki was making new things and tinkering. Now it is mainly note taking and documentation. I am not sure how much of that is Bob and how much of that is a change in my work. But having the tools ready makes a huge difference.

[Jed Carty]

One thing to remember with this group is that there is a huge selection bias toward people who want to tinker with tiddlywiki, otherwise they wouldn't post here. I think that most people who use it are like Felicity, who uses it all the time but doesn't have any need for anything past tagging, linking and lists.

[Mark Kerrigan]

any technology choice can be used to be used to create busy work, for example I spent a lot of time at my old job working on a documentation system for a quality management system (ISO 9001). Did it matter almost no one ever used it? No because it just had to exist for auditing purposes. Originally this was all implemented in a Excel spreadsheet and it worked. Of course if the tool works, then why worry about which one you use?

I see these posts complaining about these various software tools and I just wonder how much we're trading complexity around for creating busy work by choosing new tools. There's an adage about SAAS startups somewhere out there related to glorified spreadsheets.

See the classic XKCD comic - https://xkcd.com/1205/

The advantage of course with TiddlyWiki is everything is really just plain text. So you don't have to worry about navigating these complicated WYSIWYG apps that come up every now and then.

- Mark

[Anne-Laure Le Cunff]

I do agree the fact that you can tinker with TW so much is probably part of why some people are drawn to it in the first place, but as for myself I can definitely see an reversed correlation between time spent tinkering and time spent actually writing in TW. :)

That being said, what I like about TW is that once your setup is done (and there's really not much that cannot be done), it just works. I never managed to get on the Notion bandwagon because it feels like so much work at a micro level (organising your folders and figuring out a hierarchy, picking an emoji for each of them, displaying data from various places) rather than tinkering at the macro level like I can do with TW.

[Mark S.]

Let's face it. The problem isn't the software. The problem is us. Tinkering will almost always be more interesting than the actual work ;-)

[Ed Heil]

In my very short acquaintance with TiddlyWiki I've had the following arc so far: 

* use the basic tools: mainly linking, simple transclusion

* learn how to do some complicated stuff (this took a lot of effort for me) (no, seriously, a LOT of effort)

* discover that there are built-in ways to do a lot of of the complicated stuff I was learning how to do, like, I went to a lot of trouble to learn about making my own buttons that create new tiddlers with tags, and then I realize that "New Tiddler Here" does that anyway.  Learn how to write clever list widget stuff and realize that 90% of the time {{{ [tag[something]] }}} does everything I really care about.  That kind of thing.

* spend the majority of my time using built-in stuff and strategically get clever only when I want something special.

[David Gifford]

Hi Peter

I was looking all over for this post in other threads. I finally found it buried here.

Yes, I created a lot of confusion, didn't I? Here are descriptions that will hopefully distinguish the terms:

1. TiddlyBlink: my original Roam imitator TiddlyWiki, created I think in January or early February. https://giffmex.org/gifts/tiddlyblink.html

2. Idea Stew: a very slight adaptation of TiddlyBlink I created for me, specifically for taking notes on reading. I get the impression not many people are warming up to Idea Stew. So I haven't emphasized it. But I love it and use it constantly. https://giffmex.org/gifts/ideastew.html

3. Stroll: my latest experiment, almost ready, that will in effect replace TiddlyBlink. Much more like Roam than TiddlyBlink is, and with a tight tutorial to get new people on board. Currently at https://giffmex.org/experiments/stroll.experiment.html but will soon move to https://giffmex.org/stroll/stroll.html

For good measure:

4. RoamWiki: Joe Kroese mashed TiddlyBlink and TiddlyMap together. Nice. https://joekroese.github.io/tiddlyroam/

5. Drift: Tony K created a bi-directional links adaptation similar to TiddlyBlink but that also lists tags and keywords in the references section of tiddlers. Also nice. https://akhater.github.io/drift/

I hope this is helpful!

On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 10:00:17 AM UTC-5, Peter Buyze wrote:

David,

how does Idea Stew fit into all this?

I understand TiddlyBlink is a completed project, nothing new will be added but it will continue to exist. It is in effect superseded by Stroll. Will Idea Stew continue to exist in parallel with the other 2? Is it also considered a completed project?

3 May 2020, 17:40 by dgif...@crcna.org:

I looked into Notion and quickly saw that it would become just that, busy work.

I also echo everyone else's sentiments that TiddlyWiki has the same effect on me. Endless tweaking.

I find for writing / producing, an outliner like Dynalist or Roam is best.

For taking notes on reading, I am using my Idea Stew (a version of TiddlyBlink) and finding it to be the best system for me. No more tweaking needed.

On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 8:05:47 AM UTC-5, Diego Mesa wrote:

Hello all,

I came across this article on HN today and found the comments to be an interesting look into a "competitor". As people are explaining their gripes with Notion, this could represent a big opportunity for TW!

Article:

https://medium.com/diesdas-direct/notion-encourages-busy-work-and-im-tired-of-it-b1e049edb663

HN comments:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23050204

Diego

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[TonyM]

Folks [Edited]

Interesting discussion. I am one of those apparently eternal tinkerers, and whilst I acknowledge tiddlywiki can take you down many rabbit holes to detrimental levels, I want to defend the tinkering, deeply.

My tinkering has goals;

• Become expert in tiddlywiki
• Support the community
• Treat it as a platform for all forms of development
• Building the tools for rapid iterative designs
• Learn more about key internet tech html, css, js and more

My life has consisted of a number of projects I have become obsessive about electronics, desktops/servers, photography, science and evolution, climate change/sustainability, astronomy and now tiddlywiki.

Like many tinkerers and inventors I may look like a slow learner who seems to take forever to make useful end products. But my journey is one of deep learning, conceptual and strategic thinking, design thinking, tool and workflow development. I am learning the cell structure of tiddlywiki and taking in the whole tiddlyverse.

On a number of axis tiddlywiki is almost infinite in extent, so I do wonder if I will ever be satisfied?. Actually this is one of my deepest discoveries tiddlywiki itself supports the exploration of the infinite, the recursive, the reiterative of subjects with infinities and uncertainties.

I am proud of being busy with tiddlywiki.

Regards
Tony

[Peter Buyze]

Thanks David.

I sniffed at Idea Stew a while ago and at 1st sight liked it. Since I also take notes when reading a book I'll take a more in-depth look at it, when I have a better handle on TB which I prefer to Stroll, at this stage anyway.

BTW I have started incorporating your popup tooltip code for all internal references without underlines in my TB - great stuff. One small hitch I bumped into was the backlinks, but Birthe helped me to solve it - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/tiddlywiki/MyHhAp7ag6I/KOftL0BoAQAJ 

Thanks for some very beautiful work that makes TW even more attractive.

5 May 2020, 01:10 by dgif...@crcna.org:

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[Peter Buyze]

Let's not forget (as I need to too ;-) ) that it is that it is thanks to tinkering in small part that there are such great plug-ins.

5 May 2020, 04:04 by anthony...@gmail.com:

Folks

Intersting discussion. I am one of those apparently eternal tinkerers, and whilst I acknowledge tiddlywiki can take you down many rabbit holes to detrimental levels, I want to defend the tinkering, deeply.

My tinkering has goals;

Become expert in tiddlywiki

Support the community

Treat it as a platform for all forms of development

Building the tools for rapid iterative designs

Learn more about key internet tech html, css, js and more

My life has consisted of a number of projects I have become obsessive about electronics, desktops/servers, photography, science and evolution, climate change/sustainability, astronomy and now tiddlywiki.

Like many tinkerers and inventors I may look like a slow learner who seems to take forever to make useful end products. But my journey is one of deep learning, conceptual and strategic thinking, design thinking, tool and workflow development. I am learning the cell structure of tiddlywiki and taking in the whole tiddlyverse.

On a number of axies tiddlywiki is almost infinate in extent so I do wonder if I will ever be satisfied?. Actualy this is one of my deepest discoveries tiddlywiki itself supports the exploration of the infinite, the recurive, the reiterative of subjects with infinities and uncertanties.

I am proud of being busy with tiddlywiki.

Regards

Tony

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[Edgaras]

I agree with David Gifford the most effective tools for writing and producing are Roam and Dynalist. The reason is they are focused on managing data instead of visual structure. 

Yet, they lack of structuring and styling possibilities when you want to create views for yourself or others.

Notion tries to strike a good balance between data and views. But that still distracts you from producing the content in first place, because you are a little bit stuck in between writing and structuring. There are also many other tools that try to balance data and views and even add more control through formulas and algorithms, for how your content will be dynamically displayed (viewed).

SO, here is where I think we could learn more from software development and in particular MVC framework!

I could imagine ideal situation like this:

1. Write and produce content like in Roam, Dynalist. All the focus is on writing, linking, referencing, structuring the pure content only. (MODEL - data)

2. Not all my notes has to be viewed, but some I want to publish or have a better overview for myself, so I want to put a bit of more work to produce a structured artefact. So then, I would like to have another mode in a tool for creating more structured, visualised pages from your produced data. That would look somewhere in between TW, Notion or in general html/css front-end coding, drag and drop. (VIEW - structure).

3. The third mode of a tool is kind of implied already when creating views, but you want to be able to have powerful structuring tools to display data dynamically. So when you create views you want formulas, templating systems that help you to achieve desired look/structure. Most of these tools are already in TW or Notion or other tools. (CONTROL - functions)

I haven't yet seen that all-in-one tool who achieves this MVC model and supports me throughout the whole process or producing, structuring and publishing knowledge.

[Marc Ferguson]

With all of this discussion on pop up references I wish there could be some consideration for anchoring are block of text that can then be trancluded into other tiddlers as part of or as pop ups etc. it would sure make it easier rather than having to manage hundreds of tiny tiddlers 

Sent from my iPad

On May 4, 2020, at 10:24 PM, 'Peter Buyze' via TiddlyWiki <tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[TiddlyTweeter]

Diego

Interesting post!

TBH, my take is that both Roam and TW matter, though in different ways.

I NEED to point out that both are under-theorized. What I am referring to is that broader ideas about how "knowing & recording & associating" work cognitively for human beings. Computer end experience is seriously under-thought. Computing got rather enamored with itself.

In brief we need a better meta context to evaluate function for purpose.

Mad thoughts

TT