@Jeremy What editions are there... and what are editions?

[Mat]

@Jeremy

What are the requirements for a so called edition to be officially on the tiddlywiki.com domain?

And, actually, which ones are there so far? tw.com/Editions only lists Empty and Full. Under github tw5/editions we find a load of stuff, including different language editions.

Are the following all called editions?

tw.com

tw.com/empty

tw.com/full

tw.com/prerelease

tw.com/talkytalky

education.tw.com

Note: I find the term "edition" misleading. To me "edition" means more a sequential versioning of something. "3d edition, now expanded with new chapter". But I can see how a language version can be referred to as "the French edition".

I find "application" to be a more suitable term. It makes it very clear that the distinction between them is what they are used for.

You have mentioned you hope for there to be "editions like there are videos on youtube" (I'm parahprasing and if I misunderstand please object). I would love to hear a bit more about what you envision.

Thank you!

<:-)

[Mat]

Addendum: I easily forget the important difference in how to express myself when I post questions to everyone/anyone vs when addressing an @individual. In re-reading the above, I feel it comes across as if I demand something when I really would just very much appreciate an answer from Jeremy. Big difference.

Thank you!

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mat

The idea of an "edition" of TiddlyWiki is a reusable, empty wiki that has been preconfigured for a specific purpose with the addition of plugins and initial content. The vision is that tw.com should present a list of the popular editions, enabling users to jump straight to a decent starting point for task management, academic study, mind-mapping, interactive fiction etc.

In practice, the tw5 repo uses the "editions" folder for all the wikis that are shipped as part of the core, not just those that are designed for reuse, and hence actually deserve the title. The site itself just points to the wikis that qualify as editions: currently, the empty and full editions.

I want to fix that by introducing a new "wiki" folder in the repo.

As discussed a few times recently, I'm really keen that we start paying more attention to gathering community resources (ie plugins) into the official plugin library, and start trying to build up our library of editions.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

 

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 3:32 PM, Mat <matia...@gmail.com> wrote:

Addendum: I easily forget the important difference in how to express myself when I post questions to everyone/anyone vs when addressing an @individual. In re-reading the above, I feel it comes across as if I demand something when I really would just very much appreciate an answer from Jeremy. Big difference.

Thank you!

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Jeremy Ruston
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[Mat]

Thank you for your reply Jeremy!

So, do I understand it right that "editions" will then be something formally official and they are added individually by an administrator (presumably you).

Is there no intention for tw.com to include some kind of more unrestricted publishing, a bit like tiddlyspot, where it is more up to the creator of the TW to classify it as an edition or something else? Tiddlyspot is of course not sufficient in this regard because there is, just to name two things, no central listing to show what is available and no real way to distinguish if a spot is a real application or some testing experiment. 

> introducing a new "wiki" folder in the repo.

Great! 

Actually.. does anybody know if it would be possible to use github as a backend for what I describe above? A TW, perhaps appearing a bit like Apple store / Google store and possibly even itself hosted on github (like tw.com is, yes?), that pulls/fetches meta-data from peoples own githosted TW creations, so it can list those? 

This would maybe allow this TW store to visualize forks of the creations so that the visitor can fetch different variants of an edition/application. I mean, automatically (I assume github has a mechanism so you can see what forks have sprung from the current... right?) Maybe even the user created TW's can have this mechanism to show a visitor the existing variants....

Thanks for you patient explanations on things. It is very valuable because I'm convinced that contributing stuff is a lot easier for people when they have the goal envisioned clearly.

<:-)

[Alex Hough]

Can I propose a viz.js edition

* timeline and map work so well together

it sparked an idea: a class of editions based on integration with other libraries.

Alex

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[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mat

So, do I understand it right that "editions" will then be something formally official and they are added individually by an administrator (presumably you).

Yes, that's right. The idea is that tiddlywiki.com would be a curated store of resources.

One of the problems we're trying to solve here is the way that with TiddlyWiki Classic the resources were spread around the internet, which led to problems when people drifted away, or let domain names lapse. We can see the issue right now with Skeeve's plugins: some of them are out-of-date and unneeded, and yet they are still there, taking peoples attention.

We've discussed all this many times in various hangouts, it would be useful if somebody could find the references.

Is there no intention for tw.com to include some kind of more unrestricted publishing, a bit like tiddlyspot, where it is more up to the creator of the TW to classify it as an edition or something else? Tiddlyspot is of course not sufficient in this regard because there is, just to name two things, no central listing to show what is available and no real way to distinguish if a spot is a real application or some testing experiment. 

I think that resources that haven't been adopted by the community should not be hosted on tiddlywiki.com (they can and should be linked of course). The idea is to make it clearer to users which resources are officially supported and which are community supported.

 

> introducing a new "wiki" folder in the repo.

Great! 

Actually.. does anybody know if it would be possible to use github as a backend for what I describe above? A TW, perhaps appearing a bit like Apple store / Google store and possibly even itself hosted on github (like tw.com is, yes?), that pulls/fetches meta-data from peoples own githosted TW creations, so it can list those? 

That would need some server side logic.

But there's already a reasonably good process for that: anyone can send a pull request to add a resource link to tiddlywiki.com. The challenge is that it requires me to actually merge the change and push the changes to tiddlywiki.com. But there's no alternative to administrative involvement unless we're going to turn tiddlywiki.com into an unmoderated thing that anyone can edit.

 

This would maybe allow this TW store to visualize forks of the creations so that the visitor can fetch different variants of an edition/application. I mean, automatically (I assume github has a mechanism so you can see what forks have sprung from the current... right?) Maybe even the user created TW's can have this mechanism to show a visitor the existing variants....

The problem here is that not everyone stores the source of their wikis on GitHub, nor do they necessarily fork from the original place.

Thanks for you patient explanations on things. It is very valuable because I'm convinced that contributing stuff is a lot easier for people when they have the goal envisioned clearly.

No problem, I've been pretty busy recently and not able to contribute as much as I'd like to this discussion,

Best wishes

Jeremy.

 

<:-)

[Mat]

Hi again Jeremy and thank you for your replies!

Ok, so tw.com to curate/store only selected resources, including selected editions and, as far as non-selected resources go, tw.com will display links to those.

As a simple end user, the curating (quality assurance) obviously is a very important aspect but the actual storage location is probably less important so a "link store" (instead of an "app store") should be great.

But I really hope we can find a way to capture the fuller wealth of community output - in addition to the carefully pull-requested and pre-moderated gems. For instance via;

• a webcrawler
  
• something like Erwans community aggregator
  
• a meta-data list generated from tiddlyspot
  

This could be displayed in a separate TW (like Erwans creation already does) but included on tw.com in a iframe(!) to be displayed in a prominent but distinct section. The iframe sandboxes it and makes it very managable as an entity. And the individual entries in that iframed tw could be manipulated using the usual tw tools to slice and dice.

Would you welcome something like this? Visitors to tw.com would - and are now!!! - otherwise simply missing out on 99% of what tiddlywiki encompasses. What can we otherwise do to capture the material that is out there but that is simply not pull requested to you? 

I'm certain there are incredible TW creations out there built by people with the intention to solve a need they have... and that is all they care about and they couldn't care less if the rest of us know about it. All fair, but very unfortunate for us.

I believe one key factor for youtubes success is the post-moderation, rather than pre-moderation, i.e viewers can report inappropriate material instead of an obviously impossible task to pre-moderate it. (I'm guessing the post-moderation is even automated on the host side to remove a clip after X complaints.) Youtube is of course another league, but it is enough to look at Erwans community aggregator, a service that has been around for less than a year and that hosts stuff from merely 17 authors but has 4370 tiddlers... it is clearly unthinkable that someone should pre-moderate this. They're not all relevant tiddlers, and they are tiddlers not tiddlywikis, but okay if we look at tiddlyspot I'm certain the number of spots is also a totally unmanagable number to pre-moderate. Not that anyone would pull request them. 

Besides, the focus on tiddlywikis as opposed to tiddlers is partly because we cannot easily handle single tiddlers. Erwans solution is interesting also from that respect. A direct consequence from pre-moderation is that the reporting of a tw is compromised into an often unspecific summary like  "a collection of...". This simplification is 100% understandable, also considering that the content of those sites change, but nonetheless it means the visitor to tw.com simply doesn't really get to know what the reported site offers.

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this super important matter.

Thank you Jeremy!

<:-)

[BJ]

I would like to see some kind of community 'store' where community member can state that they consider themselves a community member! - A place where people can say how they contribute, their tw interests , and advertise their plugins - not every plugin can be in the offical plugins, eg my visualeditor plugin uses ckeditor those license is incompatible with tiddlywiki's, yet it is the most popular in-page editor of the Internet. Other plugins may enable inline javascript etc.

Cheers

BJ

[Alex Hough]

When you make a TW from terminal, presumabley "server" is an edition. It would be good to "--init MapTimeline" to get an empty time line and mindmap edition.

I guess that editions are valuable when they get included in the node version of TW. 

I can see a personal workflow around using exporting .tid files using a filter and creating editions from those tiddlers using node

best wishes

Alex

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