Two stories in TiddlyWiki

[Saq Imtiaz]

Hey everyone,

I am sharing my two story tiddlywiki setup that I have been using for the last couple of years, as it has come to my attention that there is still some interest in this. This isn't really designed to be freely reusable at this point and is still rough around the edges, but hopefully it proves useful. I am planning to rewrite this from scratch based on my learnings in the near future.

This was done more as a proof of concept and if I re-did this today the UI would be significantly different. I implemented this in 2017 partly as an exercise in learning TW5 (I was a long time TWC user years ago) and it worked better than anticipated so I have just kept using it without taking the time to refine it. So it can definitely do with some cleanup in terms of code and CSS. Currently the CSS is responsive, below a certain width the sidebar is hidden and if the screen is even smaller it defaults to a one stop layout. It's also optimized with larger screens in mind (1920px+ width)

Furthermore some parts could be better streamlined now that I understand TW5 a lot better and also due to some welcome changes in the core.

http://sq-twostories.tiddlyspot.com/

Let me know if anything doesn't work, I've ripped this out of a larger and more complex TiddlyWiki and hopefully I got all the important bits.

• Shift click links to open in the other story
• Shift click the edit button to edit in the other story - I probably use this feature the most.
• Dropzones above each story - not as useful as I had first expected
• Each tiddler has a "divert" button in the toolbar that opens it in the other story.
• Screen width > 1920, you get two stories and the normal sidebar
• Screen width > 1920 %% < 1280, the sidebar overlaps the second story and can be hidden
• Screen width < 1280, the second story is hidden

If you add this as is to a TiddlyWiki with a custom theme, you more than likely will need to adapt the css a fair bit.

Regards,

Saq

[David Gifford]

wooooooooow

[David Gifford]

One question: where did the right story scrollbar go when I hid the sidebar?

On Tuesday, April 14, 2020 at 12:05:52 PM UTC-5, Saq Imtiaz wrote:

[Mohammad Rahmani]

Hi Saq,

Lovely!

Some small comments

- Close all button only closes tiddler on the left!

- On closing the right sidebar, the right panel margin to the screen border is small

Best wishes

Mohammad

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[Saq Imtiaz]

David: not sure but possible the scrollbar was only needed for the sidebar, i.e. the story fits on screen without scrolling. Open more tiddlers in that story and you should get a scrollbar.

Also, reload. Added something for TiddlyBlink that *might* work.

[Saq Imtiaz]

Hi Mohammad,

On Tuesday, April 14, 2020 at 7:25:33 PM UTC+2, Mohammad wrote:

Some small comments

- Close all button only closes tiddler on the left!

There is a separate close all button for both stories.

 

- On closing the right sidebar, the right panel margin to the screen border is small

Yep, you will find lots of such visual eye-sores. The focus when I worked on this was purely functional, and I haven't refined it as I plan to redo the entire UI as soon as time permits. The CSS is what I considered the bare minimum to get this functional at the time.

[David Gifford]

Thanks I will check that out. I have to attend to other things for a while.

The scrollbar was missing even though both stories had tiddlers that extended below the screen. My settings were 1270 and 1270.

[Mat]

Forgive my lack of imagination but could someone describe the workflow, or rather the use case, for this? I don't say that as a critique, I'm just wondering why I don't get how this would be so useful.

Thanks.

<:-)

[David Gifford]

@Mat

Writers would like to see source material next to what they are writing.

Thinkers may want to compare two ideas side by side.

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[Mat]

@David - OK, makes sense. Thanks.

<:-) 

[Anne-Laure Le Cunff]

@Mat Here is are a couple of gifs created which shows how you can use the side-by-side view, I use it all the time collate content from other notes into a new one to write blog posts :)

1) drag-block-side-panel.gif

2) menu-collapse.gif

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On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 7:03 PM Mat <matia...@gmail.com> wrote:

@David - OK, makes sense. Thanks.

<:-) 

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[Mat]

Anne-Laure Le Cunff wrote:

1) drag-block-side-panel.gif

Oh! That's very cool! Not that you asked for it but I think the drag'n dropping of bullets should be doable in TW also but maybe the bullet content has to be in separate tiddlers already... not sure... maybe the action of dropping could also create a tiddler... 

 

2) menu-collapse.gif

OK, so that is for comparing notes then. (And, again not that you asked, but that "open/close" is of course doable with the revealwidget)

Thanks.

<:-) 

[Mohammad Rahmani]

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 10:03 PM Saq Imtiaz <saq.i...@gmail.com> wrote:

Some small comments

- Close all button only closes tiddler on the left!

There is a separate close all button for both stories.

 

Good!

- On closing the right sidebar, the right panel margin to the screen border is small

Yep, you will find lots of such visual eye-sores. The focus when I worked on this was purely functional, and I haven't refined it as I plan to redo the entire UI as soon as time permits. The CSS is what I considered the bare minimum to get this functional at the time.

Great addition. Thank you again!

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[Saq Imtiaz]

Dave: Not sure about the scrollbars. I've never really used it at lower resolutions. Perhaps post a screenshot?
As I mentioned, this was designed for personal use and as a proof of concept rather than for general consumption, so it's possible there are some unresolved issues on smaller screens. But it should just be CSS and not too hard to fix.

This setup is part of a larger and multi-facted workflow that works for me, and I have shared it mostly as a guide as to how to get two stories up and running as I think it would benefit the work a few people in the community are doing.

I've added a minimal fusion of the shift+click capabilities with TiddlyBlink as well in the tiddler For TiddlyBlink:

http://sq-twostories.tiddlyspot.com

[TiddlyTweeter]

Looks very nice!

Unfortunately I can't really use it optimally on a touch screen tablet (no mouse, just finger).

Best wishes

TT

[Saq Imtiaz]

That's good to know regarding touch screen, thanks, though not unexpected. So far my use-case has never involved a touch screen device. That might change in the near future so the feedback is useful and I will investigate when I get the chance.

 I will re-iterate that this isn't really meant to be a setup for others to use directly, but rather to facilitate those wishing to implement a multiple story setup of their own.

[Saq Imtiaz]

David: seems the scrollbar is a CSS issue. I have added a quick fix for now that should mitigate it.

[David Gifford]

Thanks Saq, works great!

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[Saq Imtiaz]

For those that are interested, here a few variations to play with that I hope you might find useful. These are all quick integrations that will hopefully serve as a starting point for anyone that finds this useful.

- Alternate behaviour where the second story is automatically shown when there is at least one tiddler open it. Shift click a tiddler link:

https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/two-story-alt.html

The above behaviour applies to the next two as well:

- TiddlyBlink with a substory in the parallel tab:
https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/tiddlyblink-with-tab-story.html

- TiddlyBlink with two parallel stories (not in a tab):

https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/tiddlyblink-two-story-saq.html

Original version of my two story implementation:

http://sq-twostories.tiddlyspot.com/

Regards,
Saq

[Diego Mesa]

The tiddlyblink with shift+click to open in second story column (not tab) represents a huge usability increase!!!

[Mohammad]

Lovely!

Many thanks Saq!

Cheers

Mohammad

[David Gifford]

I agree with Diego, the TiddlyBlink with two columns, for those using laptops, is the way to go. Coincidentally, it means you could have a list of links in the parallel tab, and two story columns, so THREE tiddlers open side by side.

Also, I think you said it, and I just want to concur, the drop zones are superfluous and unnecessary if you have shift-click and divert buttons.

I would like to update TiddlyBlink with this, or else make a special version of TiddlyBlink for this. But I want users to be able to drag it in with a tag pill into their own files. Would I need to tag each of those tiddlers individually? Or could this be a plugin?

Also, what would be the optimal settings so that most laptop users would see two columns upon arriving? I had to change it to 1270 to see them because your files appear as one column for me. But would 1270 be sufficient for most users?

Finally, what tiddlers would be needed for the divert buttons? I like that functionality.

This is really great, Saq. You sure came back with a grand gesture of generosity and genius!

On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 9:57:39 AM UTC-5, Saq Imtiaz wrote:

[David Gifford]

For now I put an experimental version up here - is just Saq's plus two tiddlers open, adjusted the settings, and added instructions. https://giffmex.org/experiments/doubleblink.html.

[Saq Imtiaz]

Hi David,

I'm glad the quick integration was helpful.  I suggest we move beyond that but take a little time to discuss exactly which functionality and behaviour we want. After which I can help identify the necessary bits and even tweak things if necessary. 

Agreed on the dropzones, I never use them.

So the functionality you want is:

- shift click to open in the second story

- shift click edit button to open in second story in edit template?

- divert buttons

A couple of other things to consider:

- the second story is currently set to classic storyview as there were issues with the one you are using for TiddlyBlink. This allows for more than one tiddler to be open in the second story. Is that OK or do you want to limit that to one? Perhaps allow more tiddlers but have a different view template that makes it easier to fold them? 

- I personally like the idea of being able to hide the second story even if there is a tiddler(s) open it, and be able to restore it later and pick up where you were. Is this behaviour something you want? I sometimes use the second story a bit like a "to do" list and like being able to come back to it when needed.

Also if you give me a little time, I can go through the components we would be adding to TiddlyBlink to see if they can be optimized or cleaned up. As I mentioned I wrote this when first getting to know TW5 and I am sure there are tricks I missed and core improvements since that we can leverage. I am happy to help just please keep in mind that my schedule is a bit crazy at the moment, as I am volunteering at the local hospital. So I go from having a fair bit of time to some very busy days.

Keep in mind that everything about the appearance of the story, the settings at which it becomes visible etc is all done via CSS which we can customize as much as necessary to fit your workflow and vision.

Perhaps we can look up some screen resolution stats to see what a good cut off point for showing two stories should be. But I also feel like with a horizontal resolution of less than 1270, there just isn't enough screen space for two stories.

You could maybe push it down to 1024 but then show the sidebar overlapping the second story? The idea being to show it when needed and otherwise keep it hidden.

Note that the divert buttons are already in that prototype I posted, they just aren't visible until two stories are active, which from what I remember is purely css based. Making that visible at all times would therefore not be difficult.

$:/_sq/Stories/divertTiddlerMacro

I haven't looked into packaging things as a plugin for TW5 but if necessary we can go that route. Alternatively creating a button people can drag is easy. We either tag all the tiddlers or just use a filter as below:

<$button class="tc-tag-label tc-btn-invisible" dragFilter="[prefix[$:/_sq/Stories]]  $:/core/ui/Buttons/more-tiddler-actions $:/config/_sq/Stories/story2 $:/config/Tiddlers/TitleLinks  $:/themes/tiddlywiki/vanilla/options/sidebarlayout">Drag me to install</$button>

Button widgets support a dragFilter attribute so we can make the payload for drag and drop whatever we need it to be.

Regards,
Saq

[David Gifford]

Hi Saq, thanks for the detailed reply. See my comments below in bold.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 12:27 PM Saq Imtiaz <saq.i...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi David,

I'm glad the quick integration was helpful.  I suggest we move beyond that but take a little time to discuss exactly which functionality and behaviour we want. After which I can help identify the necessary bits and even tweak things if necessary. 

Agreed on the dropzones, I never use them.

So the functionality you want is:

- shift click to open in the second story

Yes 

- shift click edit button to open in second story in edit template?

?? No, I don't think so.

- divert buttons

Yes.

Before I forget - did you do something to my parallel tab? It wasn't working. Was that a necessary change so that the stories would work?

A couple of other things to consider:

- the second story is currently set to classic storyview as there were issues with the one you are using for TiddlyBlink. This allows for more than one tiddler to be open in the second story. Is that OK or do you want to limit that to one? Perhaps allow more tiddlers but have a different view template that makes it easier to fold them? 

I think classic storyview for both columns would be best.

I was even thinking about adding the ability to easily fold tiddlers. See how this is done in Roam in the attached gif

 

- I personally like the idea of being able to hide the second story even if there is a tiddler(s) open it, and be able to restore it later and pick up where you were. Is this behaviour something you want? I sometimes use the second story a bit like a "to do" list and like being able to come back to it when needed.

I do too, but it should be viewed by default in the online file so people are aware of it.

Also if you give me a little time, I can go through the components we would be adding to TiddlyBlink to see if they can be optimized or cleaned up. As I mentioned I wrote this when first getting to know TW5 and I am sure there are tricks I missed and core improvements since that we can leverage. I am happy to help just please keep in mind that my schedule is a bit crazy at the moment, as I am volunteering at the local hospital. So I go from having a fair bit of time to some very busy days.

I am not in a rush, and appreciate your willingness to help me on this. You and so many people here have been so generous with their time and skills. But please don't think of it as being for me, but for TiddlyWiki, to have a wickedly good TW 'app' to get people on board

Keep in mind that everything about the appearance of the story, the settings at which it becomes visible etc is all done via CSS which we can customize as much as necessary to fit your workflow and vision.

Perhaps we can look up some screen resolution stats to see what a good cut off point for showing two stories should be. But I also feel like with a horizontal resolution of less than 1270, there just isn't enough screen space for two stories.

You could maybe push it down to 1024 but then show the sidebar overlapping the second story? The idea being to show it when needed and otherwise keep it hidden.

I am not sure. I think my laptop is roughly standard size: 15" diagonal screen, 1920 x 1080 resolution, and the tiddlers are just wide enough to work on even when the sidebar is showing.

Note that the divert buttons are already in that prototype I posted, they just aren't visible until two stories are active, which from what I remember is purely css based. Making that visible at all times would therefore not be difficult.

$:/_sq/Stories/divertTiddlerMacro

Oh, and sure enough, they are visible on https://giffmex.org/experiments/doubleblink.html, how did I miss that?

I haven't looked into packaging things as a plugin for TW5 but if necessary we can go that route. Alternatively creating a button people can drag is easy. We either tag all the tiddlers or just use a filter as below:

<$button class="tc-tag-label tc-btn-invisible" dragFilter="[prefix[$:/_sq/Stories]]  $:/core/ui/Buttons/more-tiddler-actions $:/config/_sq/Stories/story2 $:/config/Tiddlers/TitleLinks  $:/themes/tiddlywiki/vanilla/options/sidebarlayout">Drag me to install</$button>

Button widgets support a dragFilter attribute so we can make the payload for drag and drop whatever we need it to be.

I actually have TiddlyBlink set up so that the user can drag the 'tb' tag pill to his or her own file. I would prefer to just tag one sq/stories plugin tiddler so that that is added to the list.

Thanks again, Saq! Blessings to you. Hope whatever personal issues you were facing are behind you, for your sake.

Regards,
Saq

On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 5:55:54 PM UTC+2, David Gifford wrote:

I agree with Diego, the TiddlyBlink with two columns, for those using laptops, is the way to go. Coincidentally, it means you could have a list of links in the parallel tab, and two story columns, so THREE tiddlers open side by side.

Also, I think you said it, and I just want to concur, the drop zones are superfluous and unnecessary if you have shift-click and divert buttons.

I would like to update TiddlyBlink with this, or else make a special version of TiddlyBlink for this. But I want users to be able to drag it in with a tag pill into their own files. Would I need to tag each of those tiddlers individually? Or could this be a plugin?

Also, what would be the optimal settings so that most laptop users would see two columns upon arriving? I had to change it to 1270 to see them because your files appear as one column for me. But would 1270 be sufficient for most users?

Finally, what tiddlers would be needed for the divert buttons? I like that functionality.

This is really great, Saq. You sure came back with a grand gesture of generosity and genius!

On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 9:57:39 AM UTC-5, Saq Imtiaz wrote:

For those that are interested, here a few variations to play with that I hope you might find useful. These are all quick integrations that will hopefully serve as a starting point for anyone that finds this useful.

- Alternate behaviour where the second story is automatically shown when there is at least one tiddler open it. Shift click a tiddler link:

https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/two-story-alt.html

The above behaviour applies to the next two as well:

- TiddlyBlink with a substory in the parallel tab:
https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/tiddlyblink-with-tab-story.html

- TiddlyBlink with two parallel stories (not in a tab):

https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/tiddlyblink-two-story-saq.html

Original version of my two story implementation:

http://sq-twostories.tiddlyspot.com/

Regards,
Saq

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[Saq Imtiaz]

Dave: the parallel tab breaking may have been an inadverdent result of me hurriedly hacking both the story in a tab, as well as the parallel two story layouts into TiddlyBlink.

I don't see any reason why the original way you had that working should break, so that should hopefully get automatically resolved when we do this a bit more systematically.

Note that it does seem to work when I paste a title like TiddlyBlink into it on the parallel tab on your demo at https://giffmex.org/experiments/doubleblink.html

If you want a third story in the parallel tab.... that could work too but would require a few tweaks.
One potential use for that tab could be as a sort of a workspace drawer, where you drag and drop tiddler titles that know you will need for what you are working on, but do not want open at the moment. I have a similar setup in one of my wikis.

I will work through what we have discussed as time allows, and keep you updated. No worries, we are on the same page. I view you as a product owner representing everyone that does and might use the end product you are working on :)

Regards,

Saq

On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 7:57:55 PM UTC+2, David Gifford wrote:

Hi Saq, thanks for the detailed reply. See my comments below in bold.

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[David Gifford]

Thanks Saq

I think I would like to leave the parallel tab as it is on its homepage https://giffmex.org/gifts/tiddlyblink.html rather than tweak it at this point. It is almost superfluous and could be removed. But I may replace it with a Favorites plugin tab.

Blessings

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[David Gifford]

Hi Saq

A user on Twitter wrote this:

My hunch is that the user might be better off with a single tiddler in the main column, a scrolling second column, hotkeys for pulling up the search bar, hotkeys for moving focus from main tiddler to the column, hotkeys for moving a focused tiddler into the main column.

I don't know about the hotkeys, but his point was that if one has a lot of tiddlers open in both columns, one would have to scroll both columns to find any given tiddler, so it might be better to have one fixed column with a limit of one tiddler, and a main scrolling column for all the others. I am undecided. What do you think about his feedback?

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[Saq Imtiaz]

David: that's good feedback. Note that I have been trying not to project my personal preferences for note-taking on to these discussions, but rather take my lead from you and others who are prospective users of this set up. Note taking habits and workflows can be different between individuals and I find that what works for me is actually quite different from what appeals to most who look to TiddlyWiki for solutions.

My personal experience of working with two stories is that it can indeed get confusing to have a lot of tiddlers open in both stories, especially if you have same tiddler open in both stories. This is however mitigated to quite some extent by means of the Open tab in the sidebar, that not only gives you an overview of the open tiddlers, but you can click any of them to scroll it into view (note this is currently bugging out for the second story in the demo but works in my original setup, will debug later). Most of the time I would have one tiddler open in the main story and several in the second as reference, but have quite often had and needed 2-3 tiddlers in the first story as well. 

The good news is that this is easy to tweak and could even be made a user configurable setting. If you notice, in the TiddlyBlink integration demo, the first story view only allows only tiddler to be visibly open whereas the second uses the classic storyview and can have multiple tiddlers open. Allowing more tiddlers in the first story is a simple as changing its storyview to classic. 

I suspect there is a need for more user feedback to determine what configuration is the most intuitive for most people, and should therefore serve as the default.

Regarding hot keys: I prefer keyboard shortcuts wherever possible myself and understand the appeal. For moving tiddlers between stories the problem is that TiddlyWiki doesn't really have a concept of a tiddler in focus, and this isn't trivial to implement reliably due to the refresh mechanism. I've seen chatter on github about work being planned on this area for the TiddlyWiki core so it would probably be best to wait for that.

Regarding search, keyboard shortcuts are very useful here. The core has already added shortcuts for the search fields (ctrl+shift+a and ctrl+shift+f) and there are changes forthcoming in the TW release that allows you to choose and open a search result via the keyboard alone.

My setup for the last couple of years has been to have shortcuts that can be used to trigger two different modals: 

- one with advanced search. Here I can click any link to open in the main story or shift+click to open in the second story.

- the other with a note taking UI for jotting down quick thoughts.

This is a key part of my personal notetaking workflow. I can't currently share a demo as I am in the process of updating from TiddlyWiki 5.1.17 and replacing my custom code for global keyboard shortcuts with the newer core support for it. But if there is interest I can post it once I've finished the migration and updates.

Regards,

Saq

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[David Gifford]

Thanks Saq for your helpful thoughts.

I think I like the idea of a right hand column with one tiddler only, and a left hand column with scrolling story river. Great to hear that could be configurable by the user.

I have no personal preferences regarding hotkeys. I don't get the impression that they would be that helpful for TiddlyBlink.

I will look forward to seeing what you cook up, as time allows. Blessings!

[Cyrill]

Hey Saq,

I think it can be useful to force tiddlers (tags or fields) only to open via links oder sidetabs in one story pane (only on left side or right side).

Just an idea...

[Saq Imtiaz]

Cyril: Unless I've misunderstood you, the behaviour is already as you describe. The left story is the default one. As such all links in menus, sidebars etc (i.e. anywhere outside a story) will open in that default left story unless you also hold down shift.

The only exception to this is the Open sidebar tab, where the links showing which tiddlers are open in the left pane can be clicked to scroll those tiddlers into view.

Or do you mean using tags or fields to specify which story a tiddler opens in?

[Mark Krieg]

I just ran across this conversation and I'm thrilled with what you guys are doing!  I highly agree with "user configurable setting". I love having loads of options as a user! I have several TiddlyWikis but one for my personal journal that currently has 4965 tiddlers with external image links and many _canonical_uri: of external audio. Using two story rivers has opened up a world of exploration to me!

Mark

[Saq Imtiaz]

Dave: interesting, as my personal preference would be for one tiddler on the left and multiple on the right for reference :)
Anyway, we might start off as I am suggesting simply because its easier to get working and then take it from there. The zoomin storyview - which we need to show just one tiddler - isn't playing nice in the second story at the moment.
Ideally I do think this needs to be user configurable and we should be able to manage that.

I think we need to get something usable together and make it avaiable as a proof of concept or beta version, and hopefully get some feedback from people using it before we try to refine the behaviour too much.

Btw, those icons for one vs two stories are an eyesore. Any suggestions for better icons we can use?

I also have some other thoughts regarding the UI for TiddlyBlink since it's open on my screen:

- I can't tell what the + button in the tiddler toolbar is for, it needs a tooltip.

- the eye icon and the menu it shows might be better suited at the bottom of the tiddler in the references area, would reduce clutter at the top too. Or altogether hidden away in a global settings menu if it wont be used too often.

- suggest making the "fold"/"fold others" feature more easily accessible at least in the tiddlers in the second (right hand) story.

- the "more actions" dropdown button of the tiddler toolbar being in the middle of other buttons rather than on one of the edges means it easier to overlook that it offers several options in a dropdown menu

Regards,
Saq

[David Gifford]

See my comments in bold

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 12:19 PM Saq Imtiaz <saq.i...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dave: interesting, as my personal preference would be for one tiddler on the left and multiple on the right for reference :)

Actually, I have the same preference too! I actually wrote the opposite words then transposed them. I felt maybe I was pushing my preferences in ways that went against the format of TiddlyWiki and Roam. The reasons I went against my personal preferences are these:

1) TiddlyWiki has a left story river, so people might expect it there, and anything supplemental tends to be on the right

2) Roam, which TiddlyBlink is imitating, has default working page on the left as well, and shift click to open secondary page(s) to the right.

 

Anyway, we might start off as I am suggesting simply because its easier to get working and then take it from there. The zoomin storyview - which we need to show just one tiddler - isn't playing nice in the second story at the moment.

Okay, that is fine.

Ideally I do think this needs to be user configurable and we should be able to manage that.

Great

I think we need to get something usable together and make it avaiable as a proof of concept or beta version, and hopefully get some feedback from people using it before we try to refine the behaviour too much.

Good idea

Btw, those icons for one vs two stories are an eyesore. Any suggestions for better icons we can use?

Not sure I have seen the icons that you are referring to.

I also have some other thoughts regarding the UI for TiddlyBlink since it's open on my screen:

- I can't tell what the + button in the tiddler toolbar is for, it needs a tooltip.

Good idea. Adding it to the list of needed changes.

- the eye icon and the menu it shows might be better suited at the bottom of the tiddler in the references area, would reduce clutter at the top too. Or altogether hidden away in a global settings menu if it wont be used too often.

I plan to move the eye icon and the full screen icon to the top of the 'more' menu

- suggest making the "fold"/"fold others" feature more easily accessible at least in the tiddlers in the second (right hand) story.

Once you get a beta of the main components I want to play with the folding to see how it should ideally go, including CSS changes for smaller text in the tiddler titles

- the "more actions" dropdown button of the tiddler toolbar being in the middle of other buttons rather than on one of the edges means it easier to overlook that it offers several options in a dropdown menu

My goal had been to keep the core icons in the same arrangement and the TiddlyBlink icons separate. I think what you are describing will be less of a problem when I move the two icons into more.

Thanks again for all the thought you are putting into this.

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[Cyrill]

TX for your reply,

Yes I mean using tags or fields value to specify in which story a tiddler opens in. This is useful when you have links to tiddlers in the left story, you want only show in the right story (without using the little arrows above).

Kind regards

[Saq Imtiaz]

Updated demo: https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/doubleblink.html

I have only spent a few minutes looking at Roam, but from what I saw doesn't it have one note open on the left, and can have several open in the sidebar on the right?

Anyway, good to take inspiration but ultimately the aim should be to create a workflow that makes sense and is useful.

These are the eyesore icons I am referring to, which can be used to hide/show the second story without closing all the tiddlers in it:

The behaviour for the display of the second story is as follows:

• the second story is always closed when there is no tiddler open it
• shift clicking any tiddler link opens the second story and the tiddler there.
• with the second story open, you have a button you can use to toggle it. That is, you can leave tiddlers open in the second story but hide the story, and open it again later.
  In my personal use I have found this extremely useful, and anyone that doesn't want this functionality can not use it or disable it.
• We need better icons and need to consider where to place this button, perhaps in the page controls alone is enough?
  (Personally I also use a keyboard shortcut for this) The button in the page control area can already be disabled via configuration options and the one in the side bar can also be made a config option.

Regarding folding:

• you could put the fold button to the left of the tiddler title. Alternatively the tiddler title itself could be clickable and act to fold/unfold the tiddler.
• I do feel like "fold others" would be useful if offered better affordance.
• Note that I bake in the setting that turns all Tiddler titles into links. This is handy to shift-click and open the same tiddler in the other story. However, this and the divert buttons offer very similar functionality and we don't necessarily need both.
  Shift+ click on the title opens the same tiddler in the other story, now you have it in both stories. Divert moves it to the other story.
  So there is room here to choose one of the two and either not have the tiddler titles as links, or not have the divert buttons and free up toolbar space.

Regards,
Saq

 

[David Gifford]

Hi Saq,

Wow, thanks for the demo! Wasn't expecting anything until next week, since you said you were pretty busy. See my replies in bold

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 3:21 PM Saq Imtiaz <saq.i...@gmail.com> wrote:

Updated demo: https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/doubleblink.html

I have only spent a few minutes looking at Roam, but from what I saw doesn't it have one note open on the left, and can have several open in the sidebar on the right?

Yes, good point, the fixed one is left and you can have a river of open pages in the sidebar. I guess it all comes down to whether the column with 'one fixed tiddler' is considered the primary column or the secondary column. Or maybe we need to forget that question since there are many ways to use it.

Anyway, good to take inspiration but ultimately the aim should be to create a workflow that makes sense and is useful.

Since we both had the same personal preference, let's run with one on left and river on right.

These are the eyesore icons I am referring to, which can be used to hide/show the second story without closing all the tiddlers in it:

Ah, I am seeing that in the demo you link to in this post, but it wasn't in the demo you sent before that I turned into DoubleBlink.

The behaviour for the display of the second story is as follows:

• the second story is always closed when there is no tiddler open it

good 

• shift clicking any tiddler link opens the second story and the tiddler there.

good 

• with the second story open, you have a button you can use to toggle it. That is, you can leave tiddlers open in the second story but hide the story, and open it again later.
  In my personal use I have found this extremely useful, and anyone that doesn't want this functionality can not use it or disable it.
• We need better icons and need to consider where to place this button, perhaps in the page controls alone is enough?
  

Page control is enough, I think. The icon you used doesn't bother me. It communicates the idea well. Not sure what you are thinking. 

• (Personally I also use a keyboard shortcut for this) The button in the page control area can already be disabled via configuration options and the one in the side bar can also be made a config option.

Regarding folding:

• you could put the fold button to the left of the tiddler title. Alternatively the tiddler title itself could be clickable and act to fold/unfold the tiddler.

Yes, left of the tiddler title is good and imitates Roam. With narrow columns, I am wondering about tiddler titles. Is there a way to drop them down below the toolbar? I tried once a couple of years ago and it looked really complicated.

• I do feel like "fold others" would be useful if offered better affordance.

I would say to make it optional or have it in More. Already too many buttons

• Note that I bake in the setting that turns all Tiddler titles into links. This is handy to shift-click and open the same tiddler in the other story. However, this and the divert buttons offer very similar functionality and we don't necessarily need both.
  

Not a big fan of titles as links. I do a lot of printing from tw's, and treat titles as text. At least this is fairly easy for users to add if they want.

• Shift+ click on the title opens the same tiddler in the other story, now you have it in both stories. Divert moves it to the other story.
  So there is room here to choose one of the two and either not have the tiddler titles as links, or not have the divert buttons and free up toolbar space.

Great!

You didn't mention it, but the sidebar over the column is great. Right way to go.

FYI, The 'divert to the left' is just closing the tiddlers on the right, not diverting them.

Oh, wait, with the sidebar set up like this, there is no way to horizontal scroll. Some of the tiddlers in the system tab are long and unreadable. Not sure what to do about that. I still prefer the sidebar coming out over the right column.But it makes sections of the system and shadow tabs unusable.

At some point I will try to reduce the space between the two columns by half, and add that space to the far right so the right side tiddlers don't touch the side.

I can actually see myself using the Open tab with a setup like this, something I never use (because I typically use zoomin)

Regards,
Saq

 

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[Birthe C]

Hi Saq,

I really like the doubleblink.I like the toggle buttons the icons inclusive. I find it nice that they are in the side bar and page controls.

Now for other kind of work I am finding myself totally obsessed with https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/two-story-alt.html . Can we have the buttons in this also. (I have tried but cannot figure it out). Everything else works just as I like it.

Birthe

torsdag den 16. april 2020 kl. 22.21.06 UTC+2 skrev Saq Imtiaz:

Updated demo: https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/doubleblink.html

[Saq Imtiaz]

Right now, all the tweaks and improvements I am making are targeted at DoubleBlink. However I will aim to make everything configurable and eventually port the improvements back to the non-Blink version as well.

Ideally we can make this a set of tiddlers that can be added to any TW running the standard pagetemplate, to add dual story support with all other features a configuration option.

Birthe: open https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/doubleblink.html#Stories-overview and import via drag and drop the following tiddlers:

• $:/core/ui/SideBar/Open
• $:/_sq/Stories/Stories.css
• $:/_sq/Stories/Templates/StoryToggleMenu

If you are on node.js, also copy $:/config/SyncFilter and if you are using single file, I think you can use a publishFilter, to exclude $:/_sq/Stories/Story2HistoryList from being saved. Note this isn't for the toggle menu, but to avoid saving the historylist for the second story, which otherwise keeps growing all the time.

David: got home from the hospital too exhausted to sleep, so hacked on this instead. My schedule is just very erratic at the moment. So you might see updates every day and then none for a week.

The overlapping sidebar has been there since my original post. This behaviour is triggered when the screen width is less than the setting "Minimum width to show non-overlapping sidebar". When the screen is wider than that, you get a regular sidebar.

Regarding the horizontal scrolling in the sidebar, I do see a horizontal scrollbar right at the bottom. And I also see the same behaviour on tiddlywiki.com. If you are experiencing something different, please post a screenshot.

The divert button has issues when the target story uses the zoom storyview. This should now be fixed.

Let me know if there is anything else you need before being able to offer this to users as a proof of concept or beta version for more feedback.

Regards,

Saq

[David Gifford]

See my comments in bold

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 10:22 AM Saq Imtiaz <saq.i...@gmail.com> wrote:

Right now, all the tweaks and improvements I am making are targeted at DoubleBlink. However I will aim to make everything configurable and eventually port the improvements back to the non-Blink version as well.

Ideally we can make this a set of tiddlers that can be added to any TW running the standard pagetemplate, to add dual story support with all other features a configuration option.

Birthe: open https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/doubleblink.html#Stories-overview and import via drag and drop the following tiddlers:

• $:/core/ui/SideBar/Open
• $:/_sq/Stories/Stories.css
• $:/_sq/Stories/Templates/StoryToggleMenu

If you are on node.js, also copy $:/config/SyncFilter and if you are using single file, I think you can use a publishFilter, to exclude $:/_sq/Stories/Story2HistoryList from being saved. Note this isn't for the toggle menu, but to avoid saving the historylist for the second story, which otherwise keeps growing all the time.

David: got home from the hospital too exhausted to sleep, so hacked on this instead. My schedule is just very erratic at the moment. So you might see updates every day and then none for a week.

Are you sick? If so, please take it easy. There is no rush on this.

The overlapping sidebar has been there since my original post. This behaviour is triggered when the screen width is less than the setting "Minimum width to show non-overlapping sidebar". When the screen is wider than that, you get a regular sidebar.

Regarding the horizontal scrolling in the sidebar, I do see a horizontal scrollbar right at the bottom. And I also see the same behaviour on tiddlywiki.com. If you are experiencing something different, please post a screenshot.

Not worth a screenshot. There is just no horizontal scroll, the sidebar extends to the bottom

The divert button has issues when the target story uses the zoom storyview. This should now be fixed.

Cool!

Let me know if there is anything else you need before being able to offer this to users as a proof of concept or beta version for more feedback.

Okay, I am taking the day away from work, TiddlyWiki, etc. So I will poke at it tomorrow and write you.

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[Birthe C]

Hi Saq,

Thank you so much!

fredag den 17. april 2020 kl. 17.22.42 UTC+2 skrev Saq Imtiaz:

Right now, all the tweaks and improvements I am making are targeted at DoubleBlink. However I will aim to make everything configurable and eventually port the improvements back to the non-Blink version as well.

Ideally we can make this a set of tiddlers that can be added to any TW running the standard pagetemplate, to add dual story support with all other features a configuration option.

Lovely! I agree focus on the main subject is good. 

Birthe: open https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/doubleblink.html#Stories-overview and import via drag and drop the following tiddlers:

 

• $:/core/ui/SideBar/Open
• $:/_sq/Stories/Stories.css
• $:/_sq/Stories/Templates/StoryToggleMenu

If you are on node.js, also copy $:/config/SyncFilter and if you are using single file, I think you can use a publishFilter, to exclude $:/_sq/Stories/Story2HistoryList from being saved. Note this isn't for the toggle menu, but to avoid saving the historylist for the second story, which otherwise keeps growing all the time.

It works totally as I hoped. I can't forget, how much I have fiddled areound with that same tiddlers before asking you

Tiddlywiki is dangerous, we just want to make a little bit and hours pass.

Please take good care of yourself. Stress can make us feel awake on some level, but proper rest and sleep is important.

@Dave,

Not sick, Saq wrote earlier about voluntering at the local hospital.

Please stay safe,

Birthe

[David Gifford]

Thanks Birthe, I didn't see that earlier comment.

David Gifford

Mexico team leader, Mexico City

Resonate Global Mission
Engaging People. Embracing Christ.
A Ministry of the Christian Reformed Church
resonateglobalmission.org

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[Marc Iriani]

Hi, absolute noob here! 

I don't get which files do i have tro drag to my TW in order to run this doubleblink. IDK if i missed an important message here, srry 😅

Thanks!

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[Birthe C]

Just open this link https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/doubleblink.html, If you like what you see, just save your own copy.

Birthe

[David Gifford]

Marc,

These versions are under development. They will greatly improve by next week. So I encourage you not to import to your own files yet.

When it is done, there will be an announcement, and clear easy instructions on how to import to an existing file.

Thanks and blessings!

[Marc Iriani]

Allright, thank you a lot, Birthe and David!

[Birthe C]

I made some changes to 2 of Daves buttons and Saqs divert buttons to show properly in control panel-Appearance- Toolbars

Birthe

[TonyM]

Saq et all,

This is great collaborative work, I just thought I would add a Quick observation and express a desirable feature.

But first I love the versatility of two stories, thank you. And Saq put your health first, I know I have to as well, after eye surgery.

• I opened a table of Contents like tiddler in a new window and click, ctrl-click (open but do not navigate) and shift-click into second story work very well. This is a good way of controlling what appears in each story, I call this remote control of the story(s). Please keep this opportunity in mind while refining this.
• Give the above I am keen to retain the ability to have one or more tiddlers in each story. Perhaps the ideal way to do this is to allow each story to select its story view. Perhaps our Gurus can help with this. Jeremy has being floating new page layout options that hinted at two stories. I think this functionality is very useful especially with so many widescreen laptops and desktop screens out their now, not to mention those wide gaming screens. Of course it's not so much about mobiles but it is certainly very good for designers and some solutions.

Optional extra concept, I hope to further this but it is not too easy to express, let me hint at it,

• If each open story column could have optional top left bar, top centre, and Top right bar and above story as well as the bottom/footer equivalents this would be helpful.
• If the Wiki top had elements left, centreleft, centre, centre right, right and the footer equivalent, with a choice of fixed or scrollable options.
• If the above headers could be cloned so one could have more than one at the top or bottom.
• All of the above in a flexible responsive mobile layout.
• If the elements only showed if they had content but would show with a default Justification Left, Centre and Right etc...
• The similar 5 elements in vertical sidebars with the centre element fixed (like current sidebar) 

With both two or multiple stories and this dynamic layout I find it hard to imagine not being able to replicate the design of almost any website layout in tiddlywiki not to mention plenty of new innovative layouts.

Mario has being working on saving multiple stories so his ideas may go well with the two story model.

Regards

Tony

On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 3:05:52 AM UTC+10, Saq Imtiaz wrote:

Hey everyone,

I am sharing my two story tiddlywiki setup that I have been using for the last couple of years, as it has come to my attention that there is still some interest in this. This isn't really designed to be freely reusable at this point and is still rough around the edges, but hopefully it proves useful. I am planning to rewrite this from scratch based on my learnings in the near future.

This was done more as a proof of concept and if I re-did this today the UI would be significantly different. I implemented this in 2017 partly as an exercise in learning TW5 (I was a long time TWC user years ago) and it worked better than anticipated so I have just kept using it without taking the time to refine it. So it can definitely do with some cleanup in terms of code and CSS. Currently the CSS is responsive, below a certain width the sidebar is hidden and if the screen is even smaller it defaults to a one stop layout. It's also optimized with larger screens in mind (1920px+ width)

Furthermore some parts could be better streamlined now that I understand TW5 a lot better and also due to some welcome changes in the core.

http://sq-twostories.tiddlyspot.com/

Let me know if anything doesn't work, I've ripped this out of a larger and more complex TiddlyWiki and hopefully I got all the important bits.

• Shift click links to open in the other story
• Shift click the edit button to edit in the other story - I probably use this feature the most.
• Dropzones above each story - not as useful as I had first expected
• Each tiddler has a "divert" button in the toolbar that opens it in the other story.
• Screen width > 1920, you get two stories and the normal sidebar
• Screen width > 1920 %% < 1280, the sidebar overlaps the second story and can be hidden
• Screen width < 1280, the second story is hidden

If you add this as is to a TiddlyWiki with a custom theme, you more than likely will need to adapt the css a fair bit.

Regards,

Saq

[David Gifford]

Hi Tony!

See my replies in bold

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 6:18 PM TonyM <anthony...@gmail.com> wrote:

Saq et all,

This is great collaborative work, I just thought I would add a Quick observation and express a desirable feature.

But first I love the versatility of two stories, thank you. And Saq put your health first, I know I have to as well, after eye surgery.

• I opened a table of Contents like tiddler in a new window and click, ctrl-click (open but do not navigate) and shift-click into second story work very well. This is a good way of controlling what appears in each story, I call this remote control of the story(s). Please keep this opportunity in mind while refining this.
• Give the above I am keen to retain the ability to have one or more tiddlers in each story. Perhaps the ideal way to do this is to allow each story to select its story view.

This is already set up. Use TiddlyWiki's story view to control the left, and the tab for Stories to control the story view to the right. They will get put together in that tab later.

• Perhaps our Gurus can help with this. Jeremy has being floating new page layout options that hinted at two stories. I think this functionality is very useful especially with so many widescreen laptops and desktop screens out their now, not to mention those wide gaming screens. Of course it's not so much about mobiles but it is certainly very good for designers and some solutions.

Optional extra concept, I hope to further this but it is not too easy to express, let me hint at it,

• If each open story column could have optional top left bar, top centre, and Top right bar and above story as well as the bottom/footer equivalents this would be helpful.

• If the Wiki top had elements left, centreleft, centre, centre right, right and the footer equivalent, with a choice of fixed or scrollable options.
• If the above headers could be cloned so one could have more than one at the top or bottom.
• All of the above in a flexible responsive mobile layout.
• If the elements only showed if they had content but would show with a default Justification Left, Centre and Right etc...
• The similar 5 elements in vertical sidebars with the centre element fixed (like current sidebar) 

These things sound like elements of a very different but worthwhile project. The present project is about imitating functionality found in Roam, not about a grid for customizable layout. Maybe once we are done with this project there will be someone who wants to take something like that on, for the core or as a plugin. Maybe Saq might want to make a StoriesGridPlugin to build on this.

With both two or multiple stories and this dynamic layout I find it hard to imagine not being able to replicate the design of almost any website layout in tiddlywiki not to mention plenty of new innovative layouts.

Mario has being working on saving multiple stories so his ideas may go well with the two story model.

Regards

Tony

On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 3:05:52 AM UTC+10, Saq Imtiaz wrote:

Hey everyone,

I am sharing my two story tiddlywiki setup that I have been using for the last couple of years, as it has come to my attention that there is still some interest in this. This isn't really designed to be freely reusable at this point and is still rough around the edges, but hopefully it proves useful. I am planning to rewrite this from scratch based on my learnings in the near future.

This was done more as a proof of concept and if I re-did this today the UI would be significantly different. I implemented this in 2017 partly as an exercise in learning TW5 (I was a long time TWC user years ago) and it worked better than anticipated so I have just kept using it without taking the time to refine it. So it can definitely do with some cleanup in terms of code and CSS. Currently the CSS is responsive, below a certain width the sidebar is hidden and if the screen is even smaller it defaults to a one stop layout. It's also optimized with larger screens in mind (1920px+ width)

Furthermore some parts could be better streamlined now that I understand TW5 a lot better and also due to some welcome changes in the core.

http://sq-twostories.tiddlyspot.com/

Let me know if anything doesn't work, I've ripped this out of a larger and more complex TiddlyWiki and hopefully I got all the important bits.

• Shift click links to open in the other story
• Shift click the edit button to edit in the other story - I probably use this feature the most.
• Dropzones above each story - not as useful as I had first expected
• Each tiddler has a "divert" button in the toolbar that opens it in the other story.
• Screen width > 1920, you get two stories and the normal sidebar
• Screen width > 1920 %% < 1280, the sidebar overlaps the second story and can be hidden
• Screen width < 1280, the second story is hidden

If you add this as is to a TiddlyWiki with a custom theme, you more than likely will need to adapt the css a fair bit.

Regards,

Saq

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[Birthe C]

Hi Dave,

Edit in full screen mode works well in TiddlyBlink. But it really does not work in DoubleBlink. The editor is open full screen, can be edited but not saved only option is to cancel.

Birthe

[David Gifford]

Thanks Birthe,

Great excuse for me to delete it. That was a feature I thought I would like, but found I didn't.

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[Birthe C]

Dave,

I liked it maybe because I did not know edit in full screen mode before. Better used in another TW I think. Deleting the plugin will save us some space. DoubleBlink is growing rapidly.

Birthe

[David Gifford]

I agree!

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[Saq Imtiaz]

Regarding fullscreen, the plugin needs to be updated for the latest TW core release (due to these changes: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/commit/3c365a2567ebfe12d78b0aed77a40969cd38563e)