The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most folk.
The fallback behaviour of save(1) save(2) is not viable, IMO, for most folk.
I develop my TW code inline; currently from a file, as there's a lot to do handling the upgrade to TW5, but hopefully, in the future, from the browser again. I would routinely save & reload a TW tens, and possibly hundreds of times in a coding session. This is going to be an much more unpleasant experience if I have to go back to the filesystem to open a new file after every save, as well as delete the large number of old and dysfunctional copies of the file which might be dangerous to leave around.
BUT: your approach seems to FOG that up with native saving.
I'd RATHER talk about EXTERNAL BACKUP on that rather than what reads like a series of complex EXTRA steps.
I understand the technical difficulties, and it is ok not being able to resolve
it, or even not wanting too, because other feature are deemed more important.
Guys, guys, please keep it constructive. It is super easy to misunderstand - and to misphrase - in this text discussion format. The real efforts are towards the betterment of TW, which is difficult enough per se ;-)
How about bookmarklets? Could there be a bookmarklet save button that both has access rights to the page and to the local computer?
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki stem from the single file architecture.
It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people.
The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those problems melt away. Simple.
If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them,
and it comes with a learning curve. (Layout edited slightly by me)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f64623ef-ab8c-4cb9-ac65-cba804474888%40googlegroups.com.
The challenge with any solution that involves more than using a web browser is that some of us won't be able to use it. I suspect this group is a small sub-set of TiddlyWiki users, so your idea still has merit and, I think, should be pursued.I use TiddyWiki at work because most of the information sources and tools I need to look things up are on slow sharepoint sites (is there such a thing as a fast sharepoint?). So, I copy the stuff I need from sharepoint into a local TiddlyWiki.I'm technically savvy enough to confidently install node.js on my work computer but I'm not allowed to. I shouldn't even be able to except I need escalated privileges for one of the tasks I have to do. But, the company's desktop IDS would catch if I installed node.js without permission (which I won't get). Fortunately, add-ins for Chrome are allowed (and they haven't updated Chrome yet, so it still works). Sadly, I'm not allowed Firefox (I don't know why).When they update Chrome, I will need to switch how I use TiddyWiki and have a slew of index(n).html files to sort through.At home, I don't have this problem. I have a small server (Intel NUC) that provides me with a tiddlywiki server (apache, php, and store.php). But, the average non-technical user wouldn't be able to do that.
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 10:53:57 AM UTC-4, Arlen Beiler wrote:
I'm thinking of a simple one file store.js file that would allow you to load any TiddlyWiki from the folder you are serving and it would post the changes back to the server.node.exe store.js /path/to/my/folderNavigate to http://127.0.0.1 and it will show you a standard directory listing allowing you to select which tiddlywiki you want.It could load the tiddlywiki directly or in an iframe and then save changes back to the server.
On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Arlen Beiler <arle...@gmail.com> wrote:
What if we would combine the best of both words?
On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:48 AM, @TiddlyTweeter <tiddly...@assays.tv> wrote:
Ciao all ...
The starting post for this thread came from a private discussion that Jeremy Ruston and I had on Twitter. We both realised it would likely be more productive in public ...
Central to it is this by Jeremy in response to my queries...Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki stem from the single file architecture.It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people.The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those problems melt away. Simple.If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them,and it comes with a learning curve. (Layout edited slightly by me)
There is a hell of a lot of his experience and knowledge packed into that one paragraph. Its almost a roadmap to the future too??
Its the implications of this vision (as well, I guess, its accuracy) that I think is worthy of much attention.
Best wishes
Josiah
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f64623ef-ab8c-4cb9-ac65-cba804474888%40googlegroups.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/d34a6877-73e7-4ad3-9086-42edcea0b795%40googlegroups.com.
Program - File
Excel
Application functions
Enables VBA - user code (VBA, formulas); data
File IO
Browser
Enables JS - application functions (JS, macros, widgets); user code (ditto); data
?FIle IO?
Arlen,
Andrew,
I think I get the analogy you're trying to make, but I believe the premise is slightly off because Excel is a complete package, meaning it's designed from top to bottom for all "parts" to work together. Tiddlywiki and the browsers are not designed that way. The only way to solve that would be for Jeremy to repackage the single file application as that "Excel"-type of program. I don't know anything about the JSON side of TW, so it could be that it provides this type of solution (?).
What if we would combine the best of both words?
It has all the three ootions: autosave on your local browser , manual download option and automatic synchronization to a remote databases.
I use it daily both at my work and my mobile phone. On my work I use it on chrome, while on my mobile phone I use the Android app (available on this forum ) and I never had a problem . I never had to remember which one was my latest version , I never had to wait until Dropbox synchronizes it to my new location , I never had to melt two files searching for the most recent editions of each. None of those problems , and you have a seamless experience both on mobile and desktop browsers. You don't even need to install the Android app if you don't want, the online version provides also an app-like experience .
As I said several times, I have created this for myself, but after a while I realized that maybe others could benefit from it so I have released. It's sad that so few people is using it .
I looked at it. It looks interesting. I liked the idea. I couldn't find any instructions on how to set-up my own server to host my own.
I'm not sure why most people ignore it or have decided to not talk about it.
[...]Can I use for production/very important things?I would love to answer yes, but for now please don't do it. Noteself is still on Beta stage, and [...]
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/3b315ab3-69c9-4ef4-9e66-3bfb676f7458%40googlegroups.com.
Arlen,
I'm a part of the minority which cannot use USB sticks at work. Security recognizes and blocks flash drives. The more restrictive my environment becomes, the more I dread the day I can't even get TW at work. I tired to email a copy of my project management wiki to myself at home and it was blocked based on content and file size. I imagine one day I won't be able to email myself an empty wiki from home to work, which is what I did to get it last month. I could get to the website but couldn't download an empty copy.---And
I think I get the analogy you're trying to make, but I believe the premise is slightly off because Excel is a complete package, meaning it's designed from top to bottom for all "parts" to work together. Tiddlywiki and the browsers are not designed that way. The only way to solve that would be for Jeremy to repackage the single file application as that "Excel"-type of program. I don't know anything about the JSON side of TW, so it could be that it provides this type of solution (?).
Also for clarification, TiddlyFox is just a FireFox addon that smooths the user's saving experience. It isn't a tool being manipulated by TW which seems to be how you're describing it. In fact, what you're describing as the future of TW is already in trouble and continues to be TW's recurring problem. Browser security continues to evolve in ways that close off the function TW needs to smoothly save over itself. That elegance is at the mercy of the browser developers.
... The problem is that TW *isn't* a single-file architecture. It needs other programs to support it, not just an OS. and now, increasingly those programs don't. So I think the problem is deep.
Overall, I’d like to see TiddlyWiki better serve the needs of multiple audiences:* commercial services for general users* easy Node.js app deployment for advanced DIY users* continued support for the standalone configuration in the browser for most DIY users
I agree it deserves a LOT more attention, not least on the boards. (I'll try to plug NoteSelf when it is relevant. ;-)
As for using it, I can't talk for others but the FAQ reads:[...]Can I use for production/very important things?I would love to answer yes, but for now please don't do it. Noteself is still on Beta stage, and [...]
So, basically, I don't dare to put my important stuff there and the non-important stuff... well, I find tiddlyspot really convenient and the saving works great. And when I do my experimenting, chances are I'll eventually publish it and then it's already there.
1 - its unclear how exactly to sign up to Cloudant. And whether they will CHARGE your Credit Card. Do you need to pay to just test?
2 - its unclear what in NoteSelf is the TW "Evernote Replacement" and what could be used other ways.
3 - personally I'm interested in the PouchDB / CouchDB combo for E-pubs but your github does not explain how to integrate the functions of PouchDB in a standard TW that would enable that (not that you SHOULD--only if you interested in that).
Very good questions. I think they should be added to the official FAQ. Would you mind to open an issue to the official NoteSelf Repo?
3 - personally I'm interested in the PouchDB / CouchDB combo for E-pubs but your github does not explain how to integrate the functions of PouchDB in a standard TW that would enable that (not that you SHOULD--only if you interested in that).That is because I'm not interested on giving support to standalone usages of TiddlyPouch. They require some technical skills that I don't have time to properly explain to normal users. Any advanced user otherwise should be able to just go to TiddlyPouch repo and grab it to their own needs.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/cff0047d-ebf4-4072-97e4-b094190886fe%40googlegroups.com.
Another way to think about things is that TiddlyWiki lets you fairly seamlessly switch between different perspectives/modalities in using the single HTML file configuration:* As an web app, experienced through the browser* As a single, opaque file that can be emailed/Dropboxed/Slacked etc. as a blob* As a plain text file that can be backed up, edited, etc just like any other text file* As a fancy ZIP file that can contain multiple items* As a standalone tool to process content elsewhere, for example to generate a static, secondary representation of content for publication/distributionWhile the specific capability to perform bulk operations like search and replace is useful, I think the real value is more conceptual: we can switch between different ways of thinking about TiddlyWiki according to the task we face.
The tiddlywiki architecture is inherently single file.
This is why it is so hard to get multi-user configured properly. You would have to virtually dismantle tiddlywiki and put it together differently to get anything as static as Wikipedia.
Even the server and online versions download everything in few files and the core idea again is one file.
If you load a tiddlywiki, the chances are that the entire thing will slowly get loaded as you browse if it was Wikipedia.
There are many options going forward, and almost all of them are very single file oriented when setup correctly.
So I don't think our browser conundrum is going to be too much of a hold up. It will only change the way things work, but they can still work just as fast.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/CAJ1vdSTOKu6KpTqaYj-CoZZ9Ap%3Du8yKyfGAaGqt19fSrwOwq8Q%40mail.gmail.com.
Even the server and online versions download everything in few files and the core idea again is one file.I think here you are referring to the configuration where the server serves a full TW HTML file to the browser. That’s not the only configuration that is supported.
I don’t understand the comparison to Mediawiki. TiddlyWiki doesn’t have the same goals as MediaWiki. Why would it? We already have MediaWiki, so I’m not interested in re-inventing it. TiddlyWiki is trying to do something different.
So I don't think our browser conundrum is going to be too much of a hold up. It will only change the way things work, but they can still work just as fast.I think we’re coming from the same place here: the plethora of different configurations that TiddlyWiki supports means that we can be confident that it can be adapted to keep working into the far future.
Naieve but stupidly simple potential solution...
What if one of the Core Tiddlers was a Java web server running on localhost, which the rest of the Core sync'd to?
Wouldn't that local Java web server have access to write files?
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/df24729e-88de-4e14-b018-d35499b7eb9c%40googlegroups.com.
Substitute “JavaScript” for “Java” and that’s a pretty good description of TiddlyWiki running today under Node.js :)
Where are the commercial services?
Here’s the thing: all the difficulties in getting started with TiddlyWiki stem from the single file architecture. It’s fiddly and unfamiliar to most people. The simple fix is to move it to an online service, when all those problems melt away. Simple. If on the other hand, anyone wants the considerable advantages of working offline without a server, well, then TiddlyWiki is the only thing on the planet that can help them, and it comes with a learning curve.
* commercial services for general users* easy Node.js app deployment for advanced DIY users* continued support for the standalone configuration in the browser for most DIY users