Is Firefox Dying? Do we need to pact with The Devil for saving?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Firefox looks like its chosen to die for a while.

Its userbase is shrinking month by month.

Its ALREADY a minority report. 

In November this year its goes over to WebExtensions.

By that time how will it differ from Chrome with market share already?

Would it be best if TiddlyWiki could have an OFFICIAL add-on to save to at least one browser easily? The browser MOST users use?

Thoughts, only
slightly
in
advance.

Josiah

[PJO]

I've had to stop using it on Windows 7. It crashes every time. I don't have time or interest in spending time fixing this (beyond letting them have a report, which I've done) as it works fine on Linux and I'm spending more and more time on Linux (I'm not using Windows 10 ever).

[Arlen Beiler]

If someone knew how to do it, they would have. My TiddlyChrome plugin is the easiest way that I know of for Google Chrome. One thing I have not explored is whether I can have the user select a folder and then edit any file in that folder. Other than that (which is a good option) I don't know of any way to save in Chrome. 

However, "Never say it can't be done. Someone might actually believe you." This is so true when it comes to technology.

Now the best option I see outside of chrome would be to run a node store.js file in a certain folder and it would serve that folder on localhost and allow saving. That would work in any browser and would work fine in a localhost or local network environment. I haven't taken the time to put that together yet, but it is very possible. It would work identical to how my current https://twcloud.github.io/tw5-dropbox/ works, possibly and could also be configured to do automatic backups.

Those are my thoughts. 

-Arlen

Never say it can't be done. Someone might actually believe you.

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[Mark S.]

If TW on node.js served up images and other files, that might be almost acceptable. Of course, you would still have problems when away from your home node.js server.

Mark

On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 4:39:49 AM UTC-7, Arlen Beiler wrote:

If someone knew how to do it, they would have. My TiddlyChrome plugin is the easiest way that I know of for Google Chrome. One thing I have not explored is whether I can have the user select a folder and then edit any file in that folder. Other than that (which is a good option) I don't know of any way to save in Chrome. 

However, "Never say it can't be done. Someone might actually believe you." This is so true when it comes to technology.

Now the best option I see outside of chrome would be to run a node store.js file in a certain folder and it would serve that folder on localhost and allow saving. That would work in any browser and would work fine in a localhost or local network environment. I haven't taken the time to put that together yet, but it is very possible. It would work identical to how my current https://twcloud.github.io/tw5-dropbox/ works, possibly and could also be configured to do automatic backups.

Those are my thoughts. 

-Arlen

Never say it can't be done. Someone might actually believe you.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 12:04 PM, @TiddlyTweeter <tiddly...@assays.tv> wrote:

Firefox looks like its chosen to die for a while.

Its userbase is shrinking month by month.

Its ALREADY a minority report. 

In November this year its goes over to WebExtensions.

By that time how will it differ from Chrome with market share already?

Would it be best if TiddlyWiki could have an OFFICIAL add-on to save to at least one browser easily? The browser MOST users use?

Thoughts, only
slightly
in
advance.

Josiah

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[Arlen Beiler]

This is true, but on windows it is very easy to run a portable version, and may be on Linux as well, I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure that covers most of our users, though I realize it doesn't cover everyone. But isn't that already a problem with TiddlyFox and TiddlyChrome?

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[Mark S.]

Much of the world spends their computing times on tablets and smart phones. Some models can run a terminal (mine can't) if you want to spend a lot of time fiddling with that sort of thing -- but by then you no longer have a simple, easy to use turnkey solution.

It still doesn't address the images problem which is a non-starter for me.

-- Mark

[Arlen Beiler]

Node serves images. Chrome apps might be able to as well if done right, but never tried. Any server-type solution will be able to serve images.

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[Mark S.]

TW on node.js doesn't serve images. The fact that node.js can serve images is totally irrelevant until someone writes a version of TW on node.js that does.

The thing is, if you start having to run a server, you no longer have a simple solution. In fact, you could run any of a half dozen wikis or content managers which would all have true databases and virtually unlimited size allowances. The charm of a single-file, no-install, runs-everywhere solution would be gone.

Mark

[codacoder...@outlook.com]

This.

[Arlen Beiler]

Ok, what if I would write a new script for node that would basically be a static file server? When you type in localhost it would show you a list of directories to choose from. Once you open one of those directories it would show you all the files and folders in it and allow you to open any one that you wanted. Now if you opened a TiddlyWiki Five file, it would detect that and load a helper file that would pose as the TiddlyFox plugin and send the saved file back to the server. The server would save this file into the directory and even save a backup in some place of your choosing. 

In order to use NodeJS on Windows you have to be able to execute the node.exe file that you can download from nodejs.org. It is not an installation, it is the actual node executable. I don't know how other operating systems are but they should be similar (well, maybe not MAC, I don't know). But don't most computers run windows? 50% run windows 7 and like another almost 40% run windows 10 if I remember right. In a corporate environment you may not be able to always do this because of extremely locked down environments, but it doesn't require any installation or administrator password. In a corporate environment where you cannot do that, I don't know if you would be allowed to install TiddlyChrome or TiddlyFox plugins either. So we fall back to IE, which I am not familiar with, but there again you may not be able to do much in extremely restricted corporate environments.

As far as doing this on mobile, it would be a lot easier to make an app that can do this than it is for desktop browsers. Please check out AndTidWiki if you're interested.  

Would that be an option?

The charm of a single-file, no-install, runs-everywhere solution would be gone.

Is this single-file, no-install, runs-everywhere solution available in the extremely restricted corporate environments that I am describing? You still have read-everywhere, and you still have the download saver most times. 

Thoughts,

-Arlen

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[Lost Admin]

In the extremely locked down corporate environment I work in, TiddlyWiki itself is technically okay because it is 'just an html file'. Node.js (node.exe) is not okay because it's not on the approved application list. Firefox is not okay unless there is a good business need for it (basically only the app testing folks and devs get it to make sure the web apps work for customers). Chrome (and IE) are pre-installed on the locked down desktop image.

Interestingly, Chrome Extensions from the chrome store are okay (at least the hey-you-were-naughty warning tool didn't yell at me). But google docs and gmail aren't okay.

[Arlen Beiler]

I think you may have mentioned this before. This is what I was thinking of when I wrote the above. Did you try installing TiddlyChrome at all? 

I would also be interested to hear if there are others in this situation and what you are able to do about it. 

Mark S, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what I proposed in my last email as well. It is becoming harder and harder for browser extensions and apps to do anything with the file system, so we will have to see what becomes of TiddlyChrome. But running a localhost portable server (not TiddlyWiki on Node, but a custom server) would easily get around that problem. And it could work for most situations. But I would love to hear your thoughts. 

Thanks,

-Arlen

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[Arlen Beiler]

Lost Admin,

Would you consider possibly hosting your work TiddlyWikis on Dropbox and accessing them through the browser this way? Or are you not allowed to for some reason?

Thanks,

-Arlen

[Mark S.]

Hi Arlen,

That would certainly be interesting to see. Don't know if I would make the shift, but I'm sure it would help others. To make it portable, I'd have to compile the TW into single file format and save it to a device. That might be a bit of a hassle on a regular basis.

I'm pretty sure when I did an installation, I had to install NPM first as a regular download/install sequence. That would probably not be allowed in corporate environments. In any event, it added npm to my standard path, which wouldn't be allowed in locked-down systems.

Most systems are not going to lock out HTML files, but you might have trouble porting your files since those same systems are the ones that are going to be paranoid about flash drives and non-certified web sites (most of the web, actually).

I guess the upshot is that TW5 may not be suitable for uptight corporate businesses, though might work well in a small mom/pop situation.

About Andtidwiki, the problem is that it wants all your TWs in one directory, and that directory has to be on your main card where storage space is precious. So then, to save space, you don't bring along the image files, which is problematic. A workaround is to display all your images via a macro and then change the base directory whenever you move the file. But of course then all your images are locked into a non-standard mechanism which may cause problems if there is ever a TW6 or something. Also, you miss out on any tools or techniques that are added to TW for adding or modifying images in TW.

The thing I've wondered about is, if TiddlyFox gets ported to WebExtensions, then couldn't it also get ported somewhat easily to Chrome and IE that also use WebExtensions?

Thanks!
Mark

[Mark S.]

How do you get the TW html to your machine in the first place? Can you use the default download/save mechanism, or does the security block all downloads?

Have fun,
Mark

[Lost Admin]

No Dropbox (it's blocked at the firewall, as is some of Google and many of the more popular consumer cloud storage offerings). I can technically get to OneDrive but I'm only allowed to use the work provided account. They get grouchy if you use your own.

[Lost Admin]

In my case, I opened the empty.html from tiddlywiki.com and used the normal save button in empty.html which prompted the standard browser save dialog.

The only annoying part about that is I have to use the browser save and figure out which of the numbered files is the latest version when opening.

[Ton Gerner]

Hi,

> Interestingly, Chrome Extensions from the chrome store are okay

Maybe you can use: 'Downloads Overwrite Existing Files', https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/downloads-overwrite-exist/fkomnceojfhfkgjgcijfahmgeljomcfk

Cheers,

Ton

[Matthew Lauber]

Your suggestion is the idea behind TiddlyServer.  It's a nw.js app (so it has a UI and everything) that basically runs a proxy server on localhost:8000 that saves to the local filesystem.  It doesn't even need to all be in the same folder.

On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 7:39:49 AM UTC-4, Arlen Beiler wrote:

If someone knew how to do it, they would have. My TiddlyChrome plugin is the easiest way that I know of for Google Chrome. One thing I have not explored is whether I can have the user select a folder and then edit any file in that folder. Other than that (which is a good option) I don't know of any way to save in Chrome. 

However, "Never say it can't be done. Someone might actually believe you." This is so true when it comes to technology.

Now the best option I see outside of chrome would be to run a node store.js file in a certain folder and it would serve that folder on localhost and allow saving. That would work in any browser and would work fine in a localhost or local network environment. I haven't taken the time to put that together yet, but it is very possible. It would work identical to how my current https://twcloud.github.io/tw5-dropbox/ works, possibly and could also be configured to do automatic backups.

Those are my thoughts. 

-Arlen

Never say it can't be done. Someone might actually believe you.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 12:04 PM, @TiddlyTweeter <tiddly...@assays.tv> wrote:

Firefox looks like its chosen to die for a while.

Its userbase is shrinking month by month.

Its ALREADY a minority report. 

In November this year its goes over to WebExtensions.

By that time how will it differ from Chrome with market share already?

Would it be best if TiddlyWiki could have an OFFICIAL add-on to save to at least one browser easily? The browser MOST users use?

Thoughts, only
slightly
in
advance.

Josiah

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