TiddlyWiki StackExchange

[Arlen Beiler]

Given the general concensus, it seems, I've started a proposal at StackExchange.

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/105326/tiddlywiki?referrer=kk4xS6VP59WB49QQOgt7xA2

We need 60 people to follow the proposal, and 40 questions that have 10 upvotes on them to determine the scope of the site. We should cover everything we reasonably can but we can always refine it later. 

So follow, and then vote up questions that you think fit the scope of the site. You can only give so many votes. If a question has 10 votes, don't waste your votes on it. Find another good example question. Down voting is not really necessary unless a question has more than 5 votes and you do not think it should be on the site.

Also, these are example questions, don't worry about answering them. 

Feel free to add your comments on here, or discuss the proposal on the page. We don't need to do this real fast, we can discuss it along the way. 

Most of the technical questions on here can be discussed on the new StackExchange. 

Oh, wait, do we want to call it something else while we are at it? Remembering the thread about various oddities with the name.

-Arlen

[Arlen Beiler]

Also, just a comment, don't necessarily give questions that aren't included in the scope. From the way it looks, we aren't defining what it isn't, just what it is. 

[Arlen Beiler]

One other thing, that being said, you should at least follow it if you would like to see this happen. Use the link above, then click follow. You can just provide your email address, you don't need an account. Also, do add a few questions, if you like. It looks like we need 5 questions and 5 followers within 3 days to get the proposal going.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Arlen

Great thanks for your help with this.

On 22 Dec 2016, at 15:45, Arlen Beiler <arle...@gmail.com> wrote:

Remembering the thread about various oddities with the name

I’d be inclined to stick with the name “TiddlyWiki”; it’s the name of the project, for better or for worse. If we ever wanted to change it, we’d need to do so consistently.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

[Josiah]

Let me be an idiot and point out this is a continuation of  (1) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/R5Ml_P8IO5g  & (2) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywikidev/ZTXNo9oUvn4.

This is the POINT with how CRAP Google Groups is. Cross connection is impossible, unless you do it manually.

I really want this thread to register its origins. So that later readers get the context.

We re-created the wheel enough already.

IMO most any solution is better than Google Groups which is just an archived mailing list with Neanderthal search that is near useless.

I'm happier that a lot of folk implicitly & explicitly want to see a solution. I hope we can find one  & move on.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Arlen Beiler]

Thanks for the context, Josiah. I'm hopeful that StackExchange will help keep old information from getting buried. At least the kind of Q&A info that StackOverflow thrives on. Still wondering about regular TiddlyWiki vision discussions and such things, but that will be a lot easier to find once help questions are on StackExchange.

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[Josiah]

"TiddlyWiki" is a good name. Its maybe one non-British have to bend towards having never had their feet in a stream obsessed with small fish. I did & it fits the product IMO.

On Thursday, 22 December 2016 17:35:15 UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Thank you very much for this. You have my vote. I really hate Google groups and I think tiddlywiky will fit nicely OK stack exchange.
Let's make this. Maybe we should stick this thread to enhance visibility

[Duarte Farrajota Ramos]

As a frequent user of Blender Stack Exchange I applaud the initiative. Will follow immediately :)

[jwd]

As one who finds lots of useful information daily on StackExchange sites I applaud this idea and added a few proposed questions.

I can see tiddlywiki.stackexchange.com becoming a much more valuable way to find answers to questions involving, e.g., questions tagged [list] [tag] [sort]. Even if the area51 proposal does not pass there would be nothing preventing simply adding to the Q&A found http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/tiddlywiki currently.

[Davïd]

As another StackExchange regular (already signed up on Area51), just to note on the "vision discussions and such things" - the SE model also has "chatrooms" and allows for "events"...

http://chat.stackexchange.com/?tab=events&sort=event&host=stackexchange.com

...which allows for this sort of thing (to some extent) within the SE "ecosystem". The TeX.SE group is pretty handy with this sort of thing

I think this is a great idea, would *definitely* enhance my use of TW5, and probably has other unforeseen benefits as well. I have a hard time thinking of a down-side!

David

[Davïd]

On Saturday, 24 December 2016 21:54:52 UTC, jwd wrote:

... Even if the area51 proposal does not pass there would be nothing preventing simply adding to the Q&A found http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/tiddlywiki currently.

It's worth noting, too, that if the Area51 proposal doesn't make it to "beta", then another option (rather than the massive Stack Overflow) would be to post "tiddlywiki" tagged questions on Webapps.SE - there are already 8 such questions there now:

http://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/tiddlywiki

[Dmitry Sokolov]

The only solution preventing from "reinvention of wheels" I know is to start working with meanings of the questions and collecting all information on any particular topic literally on the same page and having all the pages within same workspace. Ideally, different solutions would be sortable by their ratings like in the StackExchange but also by personal preferences remembered.

In my current situation, PBWorks does a great job for

• linking interrelated Topics,
• Topic search,
  
• Direct Access to Topics and
• Browsing "Visual Taxonomy"
  

currently, we have 30,000+ topics published on LikeInMind.

TiddlyWiki section is started very recently and a work in progress:

http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/113574373/TiddlyWiki

Visual Taxonomy of the section:

http://debategraph.org/Stream.aspx?nid=457381&vt=bubble&dc=focus

Relevant PBWorks and DebateGraph pages are interlinked.

I would appreciate interest of TiddlyWiki community to this practice of finding/discovery ANY particular Topic of interest within 20-30 seconds measured from an idea generated to a solution found:

http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/102426340/Findability%20Experiment

I believe, TiddlyWiki community is capable of designing even better set of tools and enhancing the "findability" of particular bits of information up to it's theoretical limit, see link above.

Cheers,

Dmitry

[Arlen Beiler]

On Dec 25, David wrote: 

It's worth noting, too, that if the Area51 proposal doesn't make it to "beta", then another option (rather than the massive Stack Overflow) would be to post "tiddlywiki" tagged questions on Webapps.SE - there are already 8 such questions there now:

Given the number of questions that get asked on this group, and that the about page for the group says there are an almost incredible 6000 members, I am hopeful that this will take off fairly quickly.  

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!aboutgroup/tiddlywiki

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[Josiah]

Ciao Danielo & all

On Friday, 23 Dec, Danielo Rodríguez wrote:

Maybe we should stick this thread to enhance visibility

I very much agree that some threads deserve to get pinned here. Those that are of wide general developing importance.

As far as I know there is no agreed way to do that.

ANYONE KNOW HOW TO?

It seems to me that when that does NOT happen a thread is more likely to disappear into the Usual Google Swamp.

The current discussion & initiatives here, as well as other threads this one partly developed from, deserve marking in some way. They are a different KIND of discussion than normal ongoing ones. And the recent ones address the overall communication & "documentation" situation as is, I think, better than anything I seen before. They deserve notice so we don't have to go round this discussion again in the future.

Given that Riz has also made a large initiative on "documentation" on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/) I think its important to acknowledge and look at concrete options like that too, in addition to Stack Exchange/Overflow.

It becomes hard to be fair in evaluation without knowing the options clearly. Google Groups is absolutely crap at contextualising things like this adequately.

Pinning is the only mechanism I know of it it has that can approximate what is needed in order to provide that context.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Matthew Lauber]

Bumping this for people who may have missed it.  Go vote on your favorite questions, and let's get us a good place for QA.

Matt

[Danielo Rodríguez]

El lunes, 23 de enero de 2017, 17:17:21 (UTC+1), Matthew Lauber escribió:

Bumping this for people who may have missed it.  Go vote on your favorite questions, and let's get us a good place for QA.

Matt

We are just 9 questions behind!!! Please go and vote! We are really close to make it 

[Duarte Farrajota Ramos]

Voted! Would have sworn I already had.

May we have a nice Stack Exchange site

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello Duarte,

Which questions have you voted ? I can't see any difference

[Matthew DeAbreu]

Voted! Looks like we only need 8 more questions!

[Duarte Farrajota Ramos]

Voted for these

• Is there a recommended way of making TW use a "custom" favicon?
  
• How do I create a global macro?
  
• How do I display a custom field with a label only if the field is added to the tiddler?
  
• Can I place tiddlywiki widgets inside of a SVG object in a tiddler?
  
• How can I add a wikiparser rule for managing indentation?

[Julio Peña]

Hello Arlen and all,

I've just signed up and put in my 2 pennies (votes) hopefully we get closer to achieving.

Best regards,

Julio

On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 10:46:03 AM UTC-5, Arlen Beiler wrote:

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello Duarte 

• Is there a recommended way of making TW use a "custom" favicon?
  
• How do I create a global macro?
  
• How do I display a custom field with a label only if the field is added to the tiddler?
  
• Can I place tiddlywiki widgets inside of a SVG object in a tiddler?
  
• How can I add a wikiparser rule for managing indentation?

All those questions have more than 10 votes. The only requirement is that the question has at least an score of 10. Any score above that will have no effect, so your votes are not making any difference on the success of the proposal. If you don't mind I will ask you to take your vote from those questions (just click the up arrow again) and vote any other question with a score LESS THAN 10. We are just 5 answers away from the success, so your votes will made a big difference at this moment.

I want to publicly ask all those users that have voted questions that has a score over 10 to move their votes to questions with lover score. I'm asking all my coworkers that are aware of tiddlywiki to go and vote also.

C'mon guys, we're very close!

[Eskha]

Hi,

I have modified my vote towards this goal.

We only need 5 other particpants to upvote the top 5 questions below 10 points for the TW Q&A to be moved to the next phase!

Best regards.

Eskha

[Duarte Farrajota Ramos]

Ok, done. Hope it is approved.

[Arlen Beiler]

Now don't all take your votes off at once :)

The needed question count jumped from 4 to seven. On my screen it appears that the first page of questions should be enough, when sorted by votes (the tabs at the top of the list). So refresh often as you change your votes. The top voted question now has 13 votes instead of 12. I actually think we are close enough that we can get this first phase :)

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 8:38 AM, Duarte Farrajota Ramos <duarte...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ok, done. Hope it is approved.

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[Danielo Rodríguez]

I was going to say exactly the same thing.

Now there are 6 pending questions instead of just 4. But, there are more questions with an higher score, so there isn't so big problem. There are still two questions with an score of 12 and 13. In any case, I think we are close enough to make it.

[Matthew Lauber]

1 more question!

[Eneko Gotzon]

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Danielo Rodríguez <rdan...@gmail.com> wrote:

we are close enough to make it.

Another step forward.…

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[Danielo Rodríguez]

I'm curious about why there are some down votes. I want to understand the reasons

[Mat]

One measly vote on the question with 9 points is all that is left.

This means if you've voted on anything that has >10 points, you can remove a point (by clicking that up arrow again, it's another color if you've voted on it) and insstead place it on that last question.

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Tutti

Its great its more or less there. Will this end the palaver with jumping through hoops? I'm nervous about it in the sense of the work that had to be done just to get something basically functioning. Is the hassle truly going to be over?

TiddlyWiki actives are not that many in number. Brilliant, but not so many of "us". The whole Stack thing makes me slightly nervous because of its obsession with numbers of all types.

Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Tutti

I'm now looking more closely at StackExchange as it come towards possibility. I joined and voted two months ago.

I sincerely hope a normal user looking for basic information on TiddlyWiki is NOT confronted with the swathes of numbers, locked things and general fog that only "those in the know" understand I was served.

I'm kinda going with it because others here are enthusiastic. Maybe it will work out. At surface level it looks good. But I am uncomfortable there is so little note if its DOWNSIDES.

Josiah

[Duarte Farrajota Ramos]

I think we made it for the proposal phase, got the email notification. YAY

Now moving for the commitment phase.

[Duarte Farrajota Ramos]

There are absolutely no downsides, at worst case it wont work well, gets shut down, people will continue coming here like before.

If I recall correctly you were one the most vocal users here showing concern about Google Groups forums not being an adequate platform for knowledge base/Q&A, so I don't understand your reluctance now.

Only hypothetical problem I foresee is possible community fragmentation, but then again no one has to use Stack Exchange, and this forum is going nowhere if you prefer the format.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Duarte

You are right. I was heavily involved in the last really, really big debate about how crap GGs is.

My concern with SE, is coming from now being in it. Its not what you would call intuitive or in any way simple to get up and running. I'm clicking around trying to work out WTF to do.

This confusion may be because i'm now a member, rather than just a visitor.

My main interest is only if ordinary visitors will be able to find solutions efficiently. If they can I'm fine with it.

TBH I'm not at all keen on Computer-Darwinism ("if it doesn't work it will go another way"), I think its a fundamentally untrue. Far better to be as sure as you can that the next step will carry your species forward.

Best wishes
Josiah

[A M Alfaro]

Well, right now we don't have a site so there's nothing to do. Except stare at the commitment numbers *LOL*. Getting the site up is definitely not the same as having the fully formed site. If you were a visitor then that will be the experience you will have once we're at least beta. I imagine. I don't actually know; I'm taking a leap of faith based on my "visitor" experience and having been a member of SE/Stack Overflow, which were the same. Being a member just let me vote up answers.

Regards,

ama

[Mat]

Duarte Farrajota Ramos wrote:

If I recall correctly you were one the most vocal users here showing concern about Google Groups forums not being an adequate platform for knowledge base/Q&A, so I don't understand your reluctance now.

Duarte - you seem to reply to my post, but what do you mean "reluctance"? I informed that there was only one point more needed, and this was actually after I voted yesterday and today re-positioned my votes so there was only more vote needed, hence my message.

That said; I DO doubt this very much, for the risk of community fragmentation. There is now this place, StackExchange, Reddit, (more?)... are people supposed to search around in several places? Google Groups is not satisfying but doubt people will find better help elsewhere. BUT, on the other hand, maybe it'll be good exposure and more people find TW. :-)

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Tutti

The complexity of moving a main discussion group  is difficult. The complexity of moving a SMALL main discussion group is, oddly, even greater.

This is because the spawned group has real issues reaching the critical momentum needed to prove its better than the former.

If anyone here thinks its possible to properly maintain both a GG and a StackExchange simultaneously long term they are mistaken. Unless they think of SE as a specialist's small footnote.

IMO, the move towards StackExchange, once it is really clear it is better, & does what we need well, then GGs should die. We simply do NOT yet have enough active users to properly sustain two active groups well. It needs to be a collective pro-active sentiment by current GG users to stop here, waiting around for Darwin to sort it out won't work.

The WHOLE point of the SE initiative was to better integrate what we are doing, increase impact, improve documentation & provide things GG cannot.

Lets see it working properly first, then decide.

At the moment its in some SE limbo state. Oddly you guys don't seem to find that odd. (I do find it troubling that "Mother" SE is the one dealing all the cards).

Best wishes
Josiah

[Jeremy Ruston]

Thank you to everyone who has helped with the StackExchange process. It's great that our voice is loud enough to meet their criteria, and it will be interesting to see how things go.

It's pretty clear that Stack Exchange cannot serve as our primary community platform: when it started (in the shape of Stack Overflow), one of their principles was to be an information-dense, strict Q&A site. They explicitly disallowed social chat, asides, digressions; all the ephemera that makes the community here so distinctive. I don't know if those principles are still held so strictly, but it certainly remains a Q&A site, and that is what it is good at. So, if it has a role for us, from the community perspective, it is to supplement Google Groups by helping us create and curate a body of useful Q&A exchanges. If it worked, it would address one of the frequently quoted criticisms of the Google Group: that it is hard to retrieve answers given to questions in the past.

Best wishes

Jeremy

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On 7 Jun 2017, at 21:37, @TiddlyTweeter <tiddly...@assays.tv> wrote:

Ciao Mat

The complexity of moving a main discussion group  is difficult. The complexity of moving a SMALL main discussion group is, oddly, even greater.

This is because the spawned group has real issues reaching the critical momentum needed to prove its better than the former.

If anyone here thinks its possible to properly maintain both a GG and a StackExchange simultaneously long term they are mistaken. Unless they think of SE as a specialist's small footnote.

IMO, the move towards StackExchange, once it is really clear it is better, & does what we need well, then GGs should die. We simply do NOT yet have enough active users to properly sustain two active groups well. It needs to be a collective pro-active sentiment by current GG users to stop here, waiting around for Darwin to sort it out won't work.

The WHOLE point of the SE initiative was to better integrate what we are doing, increase impact, improve documentation & provide things GG cannot.

Lets see it working properly working first, the decide.

At the moment its in some SE limbo state. Oddly you guys don't seem to find that odd. (I do find it troubling that "Mother" SE is the one dealing all the cards).

Best wishes
Josiah

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[Duarte Farrajota Ramos]

On Wednesday, 7 June 2017 20:35:49 UTC+1, Mat wrote:

Duarte - you seem to reply to my post, but what do you mean "reluctance"? I informed that there was only one point more needed, and this was actually after I voted yesterday and today re-positioned my votes so there was only more vote needed, hence my message.

Apologies, I realized my mistake too late, I meant to reply to Josiah 

On Wednesday, 7 June 2017 20:16:24 UTC+1, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Ciao Duarte

My concern with SE, is coming from now being in it. Its not what you would call intuitive or in any way simple to get up and running. I'm clicking around trying to work out WTF to do.

I don't find it confusing at all, In fact I don't think it can get any simpler than this. Post a question, wait for a reply, upvote, downvote, there is nothing complicated bout it, google alsi indexes pretty well making it easy to find relevant content.

Have in mind that this is an implementation phase, as A M Alfaro mentions running the regular website later will be a lot simpler and hassle free. It will also be easier to access (direct URL)  and probably have a cleaner UI with dedicated help sections, users list and shortcuts.

It is a tried and true method that has worked well for countless other sites,stack overflow and superuser probably representing the epitome of the system, and their success can't be denied. I am a frequent user of Blender Stack exchange and can say it has been a really pleasant experience. Addicting even!

Whether it will work well for TiddlyWiki or nor is another question entirely. I also have my doubts, mainly concerning the audience size, I fear there is not enough critical mass from raw user number, and from the point of view of proficient users capable of providing them with quality answers. Now don't get me wrong, I love this community, and wish only to see a tiddlywiki stack exchange success, but only time can tell if it can.

On Wednesday, 7 June 2017 22:12:57 UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

They explicitly disallowed social chat, asides, digressions; all the ephemera that makes the community here so distinctive. I don't know if those principles are still held so strictly, but it certainly remains a Q&A site, and that is what it is good at. So, if it has a role for us, from the community perspective, it is to supplement Google Groups by helping us create and curate a body of useful Q&A exchanges.

 As Jeremy mentions stack exchange is pretty much Q&A focused only still; no opportunity for engaging in casual conversation like we do here, so even if it succeeds it will always serve as a complement to this site, never a replacement.

[Eneko Gotzon]

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Jeremy Ruston <jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you to everyone who has helped with the StackExchange process.

​Rather, thanks to all you wonderful coding masters :)

[jwd]

It appears to me as though the proposal has passed it's first milestone.  I received an email from StackExchange: "A Q&A site proposal which you are following, TiddlyWiki, is now moving into the commitment phase. If you plan to participate in this site, please indicate your support by committing:"

Congratulations to the community and thank you Arlen for starting this! Now on to the next phase - "A good Q&A site needs critical mass to get off the ground, so if the site doesn't receive enough commitment, we won't create it.  ... Before the site is created, it needs people to commit to use it. Right now, it's 7%"

Now is the time to commit to participating https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/105326/tiddlywiki

[Conner Phillips]

I just commited. Jump on board people :)

[Arlen Beiler]

Actually these questions are just example questions. They do not need to be answered. The point is to see whether we actually have viable questions that can form a good Q&A site, which we do as you can see. Some of them are super good questions that are worth posting on the actual site and getting answers for, though.

The commitment phase is now to see whether we have enough people who are ready to use the site. We have defined it, now we need as many people as possible to hit that commit button. Once we have enough the site will go to beta, and that is when the actual Q&A starts. It's a three step process that might take a bit of time, but seems to produce working communities. Although StackExchange has agreed that it is not the most streamlined process, it does work.

Looking forward to seeing how things turn out.

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[Arlen Beiler]

Actually, I should make a correction to my previous email. The commitment phase also tries to figure out how many people we have who are already familiar with StackExchange. So if you have accounts on other StackExchange sites, please make sure that they are figured in by checking "Your Commitment" under the proposal. If you see the icons for the other StackExchange network sites you are a part of, then you are good. (It only shows the top five or six icons)

[codacoder...@outlook.com]

Like any good relationship, it takes commitment.

Done.

[Danielo Rodríguez]

This is just a kindly reminder for all those who have not committed yet. Please go ahead!

[Lost Admin]

I don't like Stack Exchange either. As you have noted, to a user it was not intuitive. To a person looking to find "the community" for some project (like TiddlyWiki) I found it very anti-social. So much so that I'm pretty sure it drives some people away. That's what it did to me years ago, it drove me away from a project. 

Up to this point, I've stayed out of this thread because I didn't want to be a nay-sayer and didn't want to be the only one. Besides, I don't have a better solution for the problem that this thread is proposing to solve (and I agree, it is a problem).

If the community migrates to Stack Exchange, I will make an account there.

I did (just now) go back to Stack Exchange to see how it has changed and it does look like it has a much better interface (for a user). For one thing, it isn't popping up a "you should join" overlay like it did the last time I was there (years ago). I poked at a few sites and they do seam to be easier to navigate than I remember.

[Edited:] After looking at the site, I find Stack Exchange is a lot more intuitive to the end-user asking questions than it used to be. I'm still not a fan, but it has improved from what I remember.