Help Me Get Past A Nearly Insurmountable Startup Hurdle on TW5 (experienced TWC user)

[da...@bakins-bits.com]

First my questions, which I hope you'll help me with, then, if you care, the context.

 

I want to use TW5 for notetaking, on Windows, but shared (not simultaneously) between multiple computers via DropBox or a web service.

 

A) I can choose from TiddlyIE, Node.js, and TiddlyDesktop.

1. How do I choose between them (pros/cons)?
2. After getting started with a particular TW (adding nodes to it), can I switch between platforms?

B) I can choose to share via a DropBox folder (replication), TiddlySpot, TiddlySpace, or TiddlyWiki in the Sky.

How do I choose between them (pros/cons)?

C) I can choose to save as a single file wiki, or (with node.js only?) as a wiki folder.

1. How do I choose between them (pros/cons)?
2. Can I change my choice later for this wiki?
3. Is my choice here dependent on whether I'm using TiddlyIE, Node.js, or TiddlyDesktop?
4. If saving as files, there are multiple formats.  How and when do I choose between them?

D) Is it best practice to use TW-style wiki markup or something else, specifically, is the Markdown plugin officially supported?

 

Context:  I used to use TWC heavily.  I've got about 10 fairly large wikis of notes (each one a different topic) and 1 for job searching - they all share a base wiki which has all my customizations - and that uses the SharedTiddlersPlugin extensively so when I update the customizations in the TWC base.html it is automatically available in all my wikis.  At some time, maybe 9 months ago, when I was still reading this group regularly, I wanted to try TW5.  But not only was the documentation poor, but it seemed that there was no equivalent to SharedTiddlersPlugin or any mechanism for simulating it (that I didn't have to write myself).  So, when it started to be the case that "trivial" IE10/IE11 updates kept breaking the save mechanism I moved away from TWC entirely.

I thought things might be different with 9mo further development and I'd now give TW5 a try.  I'm willing, at this point, to give up the SharedTiddlersPlugin functionality just to start with TW5.  But on reading tiddlywiki.com I immediately find I have the questions above and no answers.  Having to make these choices immediately on starting to use TW5 with no guidance on how to make these choices gives me an insurmountable hurdle to begin with.  Frankly, it's easier to just buy a subscription to Evernote or use my Office 365 OneNote subscription: Even those are much more limiting solutions than TW5 offers, I can get started with them in no time and get on to my real work. It's just that TWC was so great for me for so long I'd like to give TW5 a try.  The thing is:  As an experienced TWC/wiki user I'd be able to use TW5 easily - markup, structuring, indexing, etc., no problem.  And I could customize it eventually, with help from this group, if I care.  But I can't get started while these questions are pending.

Thanks! -- David

 

 

[Mark S.]

Yes, TWC was great and in many ways better than TW5. But time marches on.

I notice that TiddlyFox on Firefox isn't on your short list.

I think you're likely to get a lot of varying opinions. You're probably just going to have try things and see what works best for you. For me, node.js is too much fuss. I've never seen the point of the Desktop version -- the whole point of TW is NOT to have another application running. There are all sorts of stand-alone information managers available. But that's my take. Others will beg to differ, I'm sure.

We have been told that the days of SharedTiddlers plugins are gone forever because the security built in to all the latest browsers blocks it. The fastest workaround I can think of is to export the tiddlers you may occasionally want to borrow into a JSON file -- have all the tiddlers tagged to indicate their source TW file. Then you can quickly drag and drop the JSON files into your working TW. When you're done, you can delete them all with a custom button. I've been told that it's possible to alter the save mechanism to automatically exclude certain tagged tiddlers from saving. If you also had a custom view template that prevented you from editing the imported TW's, then everything would be nearly the same as the Include plugin(s) except that you would need to drag, drop, and approve the tiddlers each time.

Mark

[Birthe C]

Hi David,

I agree with Mark.

You can forget about Tiddlyspace. It was great with TWc, not so with TW5 and it is closing soon.

Birthe

[Mat]

It seems to me a few things have been mixed up:

To first answer your question; you should likely have regular TW5 and I'd recommend tiddlyspot.

da...@bakins-bits.com wrote:

First my questions, which I hope you'll help me with, then, if you care, the context.

 

I want to use TW5 for notetaking, on Windows, but shared (not simultaneously) between multiple computers via DropBox or a web service.

 

A) I can choose from TiddlyIE, Node.js, and TiddlyDesktop.

TiddlyIE - I'm guessing you know that there is no such thing. There is regular TW used on IE. I can't tell anymore if IE is a good idea but one reason why I switched to FF and Chrome many years ago was because of IE's quirks. Personally, when I develop stuff for TW I don't even bother testing it in IE.

TiddlyWiki-Node.js version vs regular TW. If you don't know what you want, then take regular TW. I have very limited experience with the Node.js version but my impression is that it adds a layer of complexity to matters. If you're familiar with node.js overall, then go ahead.

I believe there are tools to "switch between platforms" but probably not very polished.

TiddlyDesktop is a tool to administer TWs on your desktop, not an alternative to the above two.

 

B) I can choose to share via a DropBox folder (replication), TiddlySpot, TiddlySpace, or TiddlyWiki in the Sky.

How do I choose between them (pros/cons)?

My personal fav is tiddlyspot. Has been working flawlessly for a decade. It is generously hosted by cousings Daniel and Simon Baird who were active members at one time.

Dropbox, sure. And it is protected then. There is a (coming) limitation in that Dropbox uses https which will mean in the coming interconneciton of TWs (the TWederation!) that it will only allow fetching tiddlers from other https hosted wikis but not from http hosted wikis).

TiddlySpace is closing down in a few months.

TW in the Sky. Unsure of it's status. Probably not quite ready yet.

 

C) I can choose to save as a single file wiki, or (with node.js only?) as a wiki folder.

See answer A.

D) Is it best practice to use TW-style wiki markup or something else, specifically, is the Markdown plugin officially supported?

If you've been happy with many years of wikitext in TWC, I'd say you should just continue using regular wikitext in TW5. I've never used the markdown plugin but as with almost all plugins, they're developed by individuals, for free, so there is no "support" to rely on.

 

 Context:  I used to use TWC heavily.  I've got about 10 fairly large wikis of notes (each one a different topic) and 1 for job searching - they all share a base wiki which has all my customizations - and that uses the SharedTiddlersPlugin extensively

You have reason to follow the TWederation project closely when it is more officially announced. It is about connecting wikis so that they can fetch tiddlers from one another - your own wikis or/and others. This will be huge.

<:-)

[PMario]

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 10:37:09 AM UTC+2, Mat wrote:

da...@bakins-bits.com wrote:

 

A) I can choose from TiddlyIE, Node.js, and TiddlyDesktop.

TiddlyIE - I'm guessing you know that there is no such thing. There is regular TW used on IE. I can't tell anymore if IE is a good idea but one reason why I switched to FF and Chrome many years ago was because of IE's quirks. Personally, when I develop stuff for TW I don't even bother testing it in IE.

There is a TiddlyIE.
 - http://tiddlywiki.com/#GettingStarted:HelloThere%20GettingStarted%20Community
 - https://github.com/davidjade/TiddlyIE/releases

The last time (2014 Oct) I tested it, it worked. see: german video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrWuvjs3Ly0

-m

[PMario]

David,
Welcome back!

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 3:42:49 AM UTC+2, da...@bakins-bits.com wrote:

First my questions, which I hope you'll help me with, then, if you care, the context.

 

I want to use TW5 for notetaking, on Windows, but shared (not simultaneously) between multiple computers via DropBox or a web service.

 

A) I can choose from TiddlyIE, Node.js, and TiddlyDesktop.

1. How do I choose between them (pros/cons)?
2. After getting started with a particular TW (adding nodes to it), can I switch between platforms?

add 2)
Yes. You can change between them, if you need to. .. But sticking with one concept, will avoid confusion.

add 1)
Some clarifications:

TiddlyIE
   is a Internet Explorer plugin (beta), that has a similar functionality as TiddlyFox for Firefox. I did test it in 2014 Oct. and it did work with IE. Since IE development is relatively slow, it should still work. ... Be aware, this will _not_ work with the Edge browser! (see german video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrWuvjs3Ly0)

node.js
  tiddlywiki.js - is a multi platform command line tool, that allows us to build "file based" TiddlyWikis out of a lot of single tiddlers. That's how the different TW editions are built. If you open tiddlywiki.com you'll get a single index.html file that contains all of those tiddlers. https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/tree/master/editions/tw5.com/tiddlers

TiddlyDesktop
  is a multi platform application, that allows you to manage different TWs. You can open TWclassic and TW5 files. It opens the TW in an "application like" browser window, that is capable of saving the file back, without the browser "save problems".
The latest version allows you to use "single file TWs" and so called "wiki folders". "wiki folders"  have the same structure as described under nodejs above.
see: http://tiddlywiki.com/#TiddlyDesktop:TiddlyDesktop%20%5B%5BIntroducing%20TiddlyDesktop%20Video%5D%5D

 

B) I can choose to share via a DropBox folder (replication), TiddlySpot, TiddlySpace, or TiddlyWiki in the Sky.

How do I choose between them (pros/cons)?

 - TiddlySpot works, but you need to create a TWclassic spot and then overwrite it with a TW5 version. The installation process is a bit complicated, but there is some work ongoing to improve the workflow.

 - TiddlySpace will be shut down at the end of the year.

 - TiddlyWiki in the Sky - using Dropbox works for TW5.
   - If you trust Arlen, you can test it.
   - see: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/tiddlywiki/RcyfI550qTA/tKYdB-qZEwAJ
   - The modification he made can be seen here: https://github.com/Arlen22/TiddlyWiki-in-the-Sky

I did test it 10 min ago and it still works. The disadvantage here is, that you need to give a 3rd party web app, write access to your dropbox account.
It's possible to create your own TW5 web app, using the changes. .. But that's quite a bit more complicated ;)

 

C) I can choose to save as a single file wiki, or (with node.js only?) as a wiki folder

Yes.
see: TiddlyDesktop and nodejs above.

 

1. How do I choose between them (pros/cons)?

If you like the "single file" behaviour, you should stick with it.

If you like the single tiddler approach, and you are comfortable with the command line, and/or want to contribute to the core, you should use the nodejs version.
 

1. Can I change my choice later for this wiki?

Yes, but if you keep both version on your HD, you'll have the problem, to decide, which one is "the real one". (The one with the latest changes :) .. So you should stick with one version, per TW, otherwise you'll have a hard time ;)
 

1. Is my choice here dependent on whether I'm using TiddlyIE, Node.js, or TiddlyDesktop?

No.
 - TiddlyIE is a browser plugin. 
 - nodejs ... command line
 - TiddlyDesktop .. can work with both. But is a separate program, that needs to be installed.

1. If saving as files, there are multiple formats.  How and when do I choose between them?

No.
HTML is pure text and therefore platform independent. ... If there are problems here, they should be reported as bugs.

--- edit
*.tid files are pure text files too.


 

D) Is it best practice to use TW-style wiki markup or something else, specifically, is the Markdown plugin officially supported?

I personally use TW markup and I don't even need to see it rendered. It just works ;) ...
Markdown is an option, ... _but_ you'll lose TW specific functionality.
 

Context:  I used to use TWC heavily.  I've got about 10 fairly large wikis of notes (each one a different topic) and 1 for job searching - they all share a base wiki which has all my customizations - and that uses the SharedTiddlersPlugin extensively so when I update the customizations in the TWC base.html it is automatically available in all my wikis.  At some time, maybe 9 months ago, when I was still reading this group regularly, I wanted to try TW5.  But not only was the documentation poor, but it seemed that there was no equivalent to SharedTiddlersPlugin or any mechanism for simulating it (that I didn't have to write myself).  So, when it started to be the case that "trivial" IE10/IE11 updates kept breaking the save mechanism I moved away from TWC entirely.

As you found out, with your "saving problems", browser vendors did disable some functions, that they considered "unsecure". Which created quite some trouble for us. ... But tiddlywiki will always work with the default "file save" mechanism, which is inconvenient for users, but is considered "safe".
 

I thought things might be different with 9mo further development and I'd now give TW5 a try.  I'm willing, at this point, to give up the SharedTiddlersPlugin functionality just to start with TW5.  But on reading tiddlywiki.com I immediately find I have the questions above and no answers.  Having to make these choices immediately on starting to use TW5 with no guidance on how to make these choices gives me an insurmountable hurdle to begin with. 

You should be able to start with single files and switch to "wiki folders" later. ... It's basically a "drag and drop" import, with some manual work! -> You'll manually need to move your single file tiddlers to subdirectories, since there is no directory structure.
 

Frankly, it's easier to just buy a subscription to Evernote or use my Office 365 OneNote subscription: Even those are much more limiting solutions than TW5 offers, I can get started with them in no time and get on to my real work.

That's the same with TW5. .. Use the single file version as you did with TWc. ... TW5 contains a lot of functionality out of the box, that needed plugins in TWclassic.
 

 It's just that TWC was so great for me for so long I'd like to give TW5 a try.  The thing is:  As an experienced TWC/wiki user I'd be able to use TW5 easily - markup, structuring, indexing, etc., no problem.  And I could customize it eventually, with help from this group, if I care.  But I can't get started while these questions are pending.

I hope, that I could shed some light on your questions, and I hope you give TW5 another try :)
 

Thanks! -- David

have fun!
mario

[PMario]

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 1:43:37 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:

 

D) Is it best practice to use TW-style wiki markup or something else, specifically, is the Markdown plugin officially supported?

I personally use TW markup and I don't even need to see it rendered. It just works ;) ...
Markdown is an option, ... _but_ you'll lose TW specific functionality.

Markdown is a core plugin. see: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/tree/master/plugins/tiddlywiki/markdown

-m

[Arlen Beiler]

What most people don't know about the TiddlyWiki NodeJS version is that it can actually run a file server and rest API to serve and save TiddlyWikis. I've used it quite a bit and it works very well.

The biggest advantage for you in using it is that one wiki can inherit another. The biggest disadvantage is that each one has to run on its own port number if you want to access more than one at the same time. Of course, you could just make a tiddler in your base wiki with links to all of them, so that would probably take care of that.

It is relatively easy, if you are familiar with NodeJS, to hack together a more versatile server which can serve multiple wikis. There are a lot of optimizations that could be done along those lines, but it will work fine for what you want.

If you go with TiddlyWiki in the Sky on Dropbox that will work well unless you have a slow upload speed on Dropbox. What I have done is make a loading script for Electron.io that allows me to run a TiddlyWiki in a lean, chromium-based window. I also store the electron files on Dropbox, and have found it much easier to work with than NodeWebkit. But I'm a custom script type. :)

If you use TiddlyDesktop, you will have an active support community (this one) and the interface itself is defined in a TiddlyWiki :)

As far as format, there are only two right now, NodeJS/TiddlyWeb/TiddlySpace tiddler "syncing" and Browser/TiddlyDesktop/TiddlySpot/Dropbox file "saving". What you are familiar with is the second one. The first one is the way the NodeJS server works.

Anytime you want to switch between the two formats it is usually very simple, just drag and drop. Well, file to server. The other direction involves either copying the code from View Source in your browser into a new HTML file or making a download button inside the TiddlyWiki and clicking it. Anyone here can tell you how to do that.

Hope that helps. Feel free to ask if something isn't clear.

-Arlen

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[stevesuny]

(stripped out comments above).

This is an interesting and informative discussion; thanks all for the contributions.

Moving to TW5 was a bit painful, but so worth it. Though I still do miss some of the TWC features as discussed above.

There was one sentence that Arlen wrote:

As far as format, there are only two right now, NodeJS/TiddlyWeb/TiddlySpace tiddler "syncing" and Browser/TiddlyDesktop/

TiddlySpot/Dropbox file "saving". What you are familiar with is the second one. The first one is the way the NodeJS server works.

I wonder if someone might expand on this a bit for me, a pretty much non-technical user. It seems that the difference between syncing and saving is kind of critical, and I'm pretty certain I don't quite understand it. Where would github fit into this discussion -- in which it seems I use TiddlyDesktop or Browser to "save" my wikis, and then use GitHub to "sync" them.

Thanks!

//steve.

[Arlen Beiler]

Hi Steve, glad to be of help.

The way TiddlySpace, TiddlyWeb, and the NodeJS server work is that all of them serve a copy of your tiddlywiki to the browser and then as you make changes each tiddler is saved individually back to the server, changes from the server also end up on the TiddlyWiki in your browser, thus we say they are kept in sync with each other. This is what we call "syncing".

TiddlySpace and TiddlyWeb were built for TiddlyWiki classic and I have not used them much for TW5. The NodeJS version, however, is just a copy of the TW5 files on GitHub and is used to compile standalone TiddlyWikis from scratch via the command line. Another set of arguments starts the webserver, using the same NodeJS files. So it is definitely built for TW5. :)

TiddlySpot and TW5-in-the-sky-on-Dropbox (TWitS5-Dropbox) do it a little bit different. Every time you save, it compiles and uploads the entire TiddlyWiki to the cloud, not just the tiddler that got changed. The file saver mechanisms used for TiddlyDesktop, TiddlyFox, and TiddlyChrome do the same thing, but because they are saving to the hard drive, you don't notice it.

The server version is also fast, and should be even on the internet, although I have not tried it. I have considered making TWitS5 support syncing tiddlers, which would make it faster.

I'm not familiar with saving to GitHub, but I think it would save the entire file.

There should be instructions tiddlywiki.com for using the server version, but feel free to ask if you have any questions.

-Arlen