stroll drift tiddlyroam streams use cases?

[Dave Parker]

I'm watching from afar with fascination as several similar TW editions seem to be simultaneously developing in real time.

I've been wanting to dive in but with little personal time find myself suffering from choice paralysis.

For those who have jumped all in on one (or more) of these editions,  what is your use-case or typical work flow that has made the decision for you personally?

* Stroll : https://giffmex.org/stroll/stroll.html

* Drift : https://akhater.github.io/drift

* TiddlyRoam: https://joekroese.github.io/tiddlyroam/

* Streams (keyboard driven draggable bullets): https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/streams.html

thanks, 

- Dave

[Birthe C]

Dave,

While you are paralysed by choice,   you could start using streams. Not instead of any of the other, but because it is very fast to write - and fun too.

You are not the only one having a hard time deciding. Just look at all the questions about mixing and matching.

 

Birthe

[Dave Parker]

Ha ha, thanks! I actually did install that plug in and like it, still unsure of how I'm going to incorporate it in to my "official" work flow. I like the drag and drop aspect, and the quickness, and I'm also warming to the whole date-as-tiddler-name thing, except I have traditionally used tiddler titles for Todo descriptions, so there's a bit of a disconnect there, but oh well -it's just nice to see so much development going on on this platform.

[TW Tones]

Dave,

Having not come from a roam like experience I am personally taken with the dual story aspect of Stroll and love streams for its own sake. 

Stream is also flexible enough to build on and enhance. 

There is also Notoritty of Marks Notowritey - Outliner/editor for TW

Regards

Tony

[David Gifford]

Hi Dave, greetings from Dave.

Stroll: one time experiment I did to replicate a lot of Roam functionality in TiddlyWiki. Helpful two column structure. Helpful tutorials. Process: Use links to link tiddlers, use eyeball tab to view backlinks in different ways, shift click on links to open a second column to compare tiddlers side by side. Not a lot of development planned for Stroll, just updates as TiddlyWiki updates. Note the add ons in the separate 'goodies' file, linked to in the tutorial tabs.

TiddlyRoam: Someone named Joe took an early, unrefined one-column version of Stroll, called TiddlyBlink, and added TiddlyMaps to it. I say early and unrefined, but thanks to Anne-Laure LeCunff, a large number of people like TiddlyBlink, and it does work.

I don't know if Joe will be developing TiddlyROAM further. Since TiddlyMaps doesn't work so great with Stroll, I tend to push people to this if they insist on using TiddlyMaps.

Drift: One of the Tonys was inspired by TiddlyBlink and created a similar project. It has a nice design, has tabs to show tiddlers that tag to the present tiddler, and keywords and other types of connection. Is one-columned. Tony keeps developing it as far as I can tell on this forum, so this is the one with the most chance of getting developed further. I would say it is a way better option than TiddlyBlink, and if TiddlyMaps can be incorporated, then it is also better than TiddlyRoam. I have told Tony he can use Saq's stories plugin to make Drift a two column monster like Stroll, but it doesn't look like he has taken me up on it.

Streams and NotoWritey are  different animals than the first three, and are similar to each other.

Streams is an attempt to approximate outliner functionality (Dynalist, WorkFlowy) in a TiddlyWiki. It is great. I just started using it to reorganize my contacts and "info on hand". Caveats: not meant to be for a large project of gathering all your notes in one place. Each line you create in a Streams tiddler is its own tiddler. You can add features of Stroll to Streams (I did successfully yesterday), but either the comptext or the relink plugin or both don't work when you do. Streams is still in developmental stages, so use caution.

NotoWritey is similar to Streams but is geared more toward writing than productivity and outlining. The nodes that open for editing have an editing toolbar, which creates a cluttered feel, but increases functionality when writing a paragraph.

Hope this helps!

[Birthe C]

Dave and Dave.

Tony K did try to add the two column structure. I think he gave up for now. I have had a go also, it looked nice enough until I closed the sidebar - in the left side.

Tony also made a version with Tiddlymap.

Very nice explanation of the different versions, Dave.

Birthe

[David Gifford]

Just to throw one more in the mix.

I have been seeing this on Twitter but not here, that I recall. This TiddlyWiki: https://learnawesome.org/tiddlywiki.html imitates this site: https://notes.andymatuschak.org/About_these_notes

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 11:18:41 AM UTC-5 cedard...@gmail.com wrote:

[Birthe C]

Dave,

I have seen and testet it. Try to import something into it. Then you get the title $:/Import, vertical and no tiddlercontrols. In the settings there are checks for closing the tiddlers to the right...but they open and closed as they please. At least they do in the version I have had my hands on.

It is quite different from your two stories. This is one story but horizontal. Quite fun but lacks some for production.

Hope it will get further development.

Birthe

torsdag den 25. juni 2020 kl. 02.54.50 UTC+2 skrev David Gifford:

Just to throw one more in the mix.

I have been seeing this on Twitter but not here, that I recall. This TiddlyWiki: https://learnawesome.org/tiddlywiki.html imitates this site: https://notes.andymatuschak.org/About_these_notes

thanks, 

- Dave

[David Gifford]

Birthe

Yes I was playing with it tonight. I got the same as you re: importing. But then suddenly it snapped aright, and I was able to import. I now have my stylesheet, fonts, and I replaced the messy viewtemplate they created with my Stroll refs as links.

I just ditched the preview plugin, too. Preview plugin sounds great in theory, and it is neat to see the previews on hover, until you realize they come up EVERY time you hover, even if by accident, over a link (imagine the chaos in a table of contents tiddler) and EVERY time you need to click somewhere else to get it to close.

I too hope they keep working on it.

[Mark S.]

NotoWritey is similar to Streams but is geared more toward writing than productivity and outlining. The nodes that open for editing have an editing toolbar, which creates a cluttered feel, but increases functionality when writing a paragraph.

I'm not sure if by your comment you've seen the latest version of NW, which has a Dynalist-like outliner.

[TW Tones]

David,

I have been seeing this on Twitter but not here, that I recall. This TiddlyWiki: https://learnawesome.org/tiddlywiki.html imitates this site: https://notes.andymatuschak.org/About_these_notes

I had not seen this thanks for sharing. 

Perhaps one more implementation/edition of tiddlywiki that operates in a similar space is the The name: TiddlyTouch / MuuriTouch / tiddly muuri tiddlywiki plugin.

This implementation can actually be displayed over multiple screens and move tiddlers around even more in the space.

It is demoed on V5.1.15 so should be tested on later versions. 

Announcement/Discussion

http://muritest.tiddlyspot.com/

The Plugin page: tiddlytouch.tiddlyspot.com

Regards

Tony/TW Tones (Not Tony K of Drift Fame)

[Dave Parker]

Thank you all for the info (especially Dave :)

This is a good summary

I feel like a kid in a very large candy store (with eyes bigger than my stomach), ha ha

[TiddlyTweeter]

David Gifford wrote (my emphasis):

Stroll: one time experiment I did to replicate a lot of Roam functionality in TiddlyWiki. Helpful two column structure. Helpful tutorials. Process: Use links to link tiddlers, use eyeball tab to view backlinks in different ways, shift click on links to open a second column to compare tiddlers side by side. Not a lot of development planned for Stroll, just updates as TiddlyWiki updates. Note the add ons in the separate 'goodies' file, linked to in the tutorial tabs.

 

TiddlyRoam: Someone named Joe took an early, unrefined one-column version of Stroll, called TiddlyBlink, and added TiddlyMaps to it. I say early and unrefined, but thanks to Anne-Laure LeCunff, a large number of people like TiddlyBlink, and it does work.

I don't know if Joe will be developing TiddlyROAM further. Since TiddlyMaps doesn't work so great with Stroll, I tend to push people to this if they insist on using TiddlyMaps.

 

Drift: One of the Tonys was inspired by TiddlyBlink and created a similar project. It has a nice design, has tabs to show tiddlers that tag to the present tiddler, and keywords and other types of connection. Is one-columned. Tony keeps developing it as far as I can tell on this forum, so this is the one with the most chance of getting developed further. I would say it is a way better option than TiddlyBlink, and if TiddlyMaps can be incorporated, then it is also better than TiddlyRoam. I have told Tony he can use Saq's stories plugin to make Drift a two column monster like Stroll, but it doesn't look like he has taken me up on it. 

 

Streams is an attempt to approximate outliner functionality (Dynalist, WorkFlowy) in a TiddlyWiki. It is great. I just started using it to reorganize my contacts and "info on hand". Caveats: not meant to be for a large project of gathering all your notes in one place. Each line you create in a Streams tiddler is its own tiddler. You can add features of Stroll to Streams (I did successfully yesterday), but either the comptext or the relink plugin or both don't work when you do. Streams is still in developmental stages, so use caution.

 

NotoWritey is similar to Streams but is geared more toward writing than productivity and outlining ...

NotoWritey is also great at Outlining (https://marxsal.github.io/various/notowritey.html). The difference, I think, is its more "BASIC BRICKS" than humdinger solution to world problems. 

It is VERY good indeed if you need flexible solutions.

The nodes that open for editing have an editing toolbar, which creates a cluttered feel, but increases functionality when writing a paragraph.

Give the man a chance. And feedback.

David, overall,  I think you describe well the trends. But Noto  I think you not really used it.

Best wishes

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

For those on email I revised my last post.

[Saq Imtiaz]

I would like to add that Streams is meant as a reference plugin to showcase how to:

- create tiddler hierarchies on the fly

- implement keyboard driven workflows

by using core widgets and functionality.

There are changes that could be made to make specific writing/outlining use cases better, but would add complexity that reduces value as a reference implementation. 

As such, it really is meant for others to incorporate into their editions and build a workflow around, adapt the code for specific use cases, or take inspiration from and implement their own solutions.

Cheers,
Saq

[David Gifford]

Hi Mark S

I had another look, and yes, I had seen the most recent incarnation of NotoWritey when I posted (if https://marxsal.github.io/various/notowritey-outliner.html  is still the location). I would still stand by my statements:

1) It is similar to Stream: it is an outliner editable in view template of the parent tiddler, where each node/line/point is its own tiddler that gets edited from the view template of the parent..

2) Even though it is an outliner, it seems more geared toward writing and editing larger paragraphs toward longer pieces, than toward rapid generation of shorter items as in to do lists, tables of contents and outlines, because of the jarring apparatus that appears around each point when creating it. This apparatus is distracting when one wants to just generate a lot of short points or rearrange them. The distraction is both visual (the cluttered feel I mentioned) and psychologically (lots of choices present themselves forcefully). The background color of the text field is dark, making it harder to read what one is writing. #eee would be a more relaxing option. The hamburger menu at the far left is always visible, creating another distraction. If there were a way to write but have the editing apparatus hidden until I ask for it, that would be closer to a Dynalist feel than NotoWritey is now. As it stands, I would compare it more to a word processor feel, something useful for writing longer paragraphs in longer documents. Please don't take the above as negative comments! They are not. They are just my attempt at explaining why I don't see NotoWritey as a tool for rapid generation of short points.

3) Having the editing tools available at each point is powerful, and despite my reservations in point 2, I really do like NotoWritey. If I were going to write a manuscript, I would choose NotoWritey over Streams and probably over any of the other options. Although printing presents an issue: I would add "Hide left margin icons when printing" to your roadmap, since I don't see anything like that there. They are visible in print preview in Firefox. 

Kudos, Mark, NotoWritey is a great tool. Sorry if my original post sounded dismissive, it wasn't meant to be. And I haven't even investigated all the options in the hamburger menu or the bottom of the editing apparatus. Lots of power packed into it.

[Mark S.]

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 5:51:11 AM UTC-7, David Gifford wrote:

Hi Mark S

I had another look, and yes, I had seen the most recent incarnation of NotoWritey when I posted (if https://marxsal.github.io/various/notowritey-outliner.html  is still the location). I would still stand by my statements:

https://marxsal.github.io/various/notowritey.html

 

1) It is similar to Stream: it is an outliner editable in view template of the parent tiddler, where each node/line/point is its own tiddler that gets edited from the view template of the parent..

I haven't seen Streams or even seen an announcement. Is there a link? Is it part of the 1800 posts thread?

[Birthe C]

Dave,

I prefer using both Streams and Notowritey, because i cannot really decide. They are both very useful, but inspire in different directions. That might not be the same for other people, inspired in other directions.

But you comment about cluttered feel, did you see in the bottom that you can chose not to show Editor Toolbar?

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe

I THINK David means the bottom bar, that uses words not mini-icons. That is easy to make elegant. Right now, in my understanding, Mark is focused on getting it to work well, not aesthetics yet.

As I said, he needs a chance to get to it! :-)

TT

[Michael Arndt]

I'm still trying to find my way, but what Birthe says resonates a lot with me. I currently believe I want to do different things at different times. Quick note taking and journaling, followed by a review process (like "interstitials" after an hour or so), followed by a daily, weekly and monthly review. At each review I would only look at "highlights" from the review-level below it.

However the review would only be a selective process. At some point I'd like to take those gathered points, ideas, insights and write something that is akin to a continuous story. That's where I see Notowritey for me. This duality is a reason why I'm attracted to TiddlyWiki – I just didn't find that flexibility in a single tool elsewhere.

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[TiddlyTweeter]

David Gifford wrote:

 

2) Even though it is an outliner, it seems more geared toward writing and editing larger paragraphs toward longer pieces,

Incorrect. 

Noto is completely AGNOSTIC on Tiddler Size.

In FACT its INBUILT SLICING ("Splitology")  is fantastically good, and needed. 

           You can split anything, recombine & split again at will.

But you are dead right its  a Writer's Friend. So what else are we doing than that?

Best wishes

TT

[Birthe C]

TT,

Keyboard tools, that MUST be Editor Toolbar. I read it like good for writing longer texts, but not for outlining. That was the reason for my answer above.

You are sure right, the buttons below can change if wanted.

Yesterday I thought of you and wrote a Notowritey tiddler, on what looks like a stack of old yellowed paper and handwriting. Not all this clutter on our desks, due to paper tiddlers ;-)

Mark S., we are spoilt for choice at the moment, NotoWritey take some getting used to and then to find how we make the best use of it. Here it is for sure a keeper.

Birthe

[David Gifford]

Mark S,

Hmm, can't edit posts anymore. I was going to add for you to keep in mind that I am the guy desperate enough to create ways in Stroll to hide the edit toolbar, tag area, type and field area and even title from the edit template. Maybe that will help you see how important a clean, minimal interface is to me, so take my comments as coming from someone who has those preferences.

[David Gifford]

Hi Mark

The link to Streams is https://saqimtiaz.github.io/sq-tw/streams.html. (the thread is entitled " Preview: keyboard driven draggable bullets")

Thanks for the updated link to NotoWritey. I will check to make sure this link is in the toolmpa entries for NoteWritey.

[David Gifford]

@TT

You are right that Noto is agnostic on tiddler size. And I think the tool itself is wonderful, as I commented in the post to Mark that you are replying to. All I was trying to say is that it is not optimal if what you want to do is generate a lot of short items and have a clean interface, because of the edit toolbar to the top of a line and the other stuff below the line. So in that sense I still feel my statement was correct. But see below.

@Birthe

Thank you, I had not seen that setting to hide the editor toolbar. That really does make it easier on the eyes. Now if there were a checkbox to hide the stuff below the text field, that would make it more optimal for the writing phase, then afterwards one could open the tools to do editing, formatting, etc. And yes, I recognize Mark has a roadmap and is not done with initial development yet. I was just commenting on the current state of affairs. Hopefully eventually everything can be clean and hidden, to focus on the writing experience, but available when needed for the editing experience. Those are two different processes, and the one needs a minimal interface and the other needs the bells and whistles visible.

[TiddlyTweeter]

 David Gifford wrote:

@TT

... clean interface ..

Interface is not Marks' greatest strength. But he gives the structure to do it. I, currently, most interested in he does It.

Presentation later.

TT 

[Birthe C]

TT,

Could you be tricked into writing a NotoWritey about what is splitology? When you use it and how. (examples please?) The most important.

Difficult to imagine without having an eye on the subject.

That could be of great help for anyone wanting to use NotoWritey. (secure the success)

I know you have written about it here in the group, but really I could not really understand.

 

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

Done already ... example of 4 Notos in one "document" demo (TWEET BIN) ... https://tidbits.wiki/noto/notoMAKER.html#TWEET%20BIN. Crusoe is over 500 entries. It works.

Example of larger items split for a screenplay (MISERY) ... https://tidbits.wiki/noto/notoMAKER.html#MISERY%20PAGINATED (screenplay format experiment) ...

On Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:17:30 UTC+2, Birthe C wrote:

Could you be tricked into writing a NotoWritey about what is splitology?

A Splitology Case is explained for MISERY here: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/yahnCXVN1UA/4daPkkQmCAAJ

Best wishes

TT

[Birthe C]

TT,

Thank you. It certainly look impressive. You make good use of it for your purpose.

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

Noto is very flexible because it gives infinitely changeable Building Blocks. 

Many types of document can be built with it. I use it a lot and will give other examples in time.

Best wishes

TT

[TW Tones]

Folks,

The value in this thread is all the different reasons someone prefers one solution or another or the perceived and actual reasons one may choose one over the other. 

Why?

Because this information is what people may ask about any tiddlywiki solution, and would serve us well do document these "features/preferences/use cases" for future users. Tiddlywiki is after all advanced by the many recipes written for it. And new wikis consist of many different and alternative ingredients for different outcomes.

Regards

Tony

[Donald Coates]

This is driving me crazy.  There has to be hidden button or something wth.