TiddlyPie in the sky?

[Mat]

I hope to make a public TW for you guys that, in some matrix, lists the differences between... ehm... "TW manifestations" that deals with serving TWs e.g

Jeds Multi-access Bob thingy

Danielos NoteSelf

Arlens TW-Server

TiddlySpot

TW in the Sky

...and apropos "TW manifestations" - that is actually the first problem: What the heck is it really the common factor here? Can they all be called TW servers? I need a decent collective name for it that delimits what the whole display is about.

The idea is something along these lines so it will be easier to decide what it is one actually needs or even understand what is possible at all. As you can tell, I'm really confused myself. So;

1) what would be a good collective/informative name for all these thingies?

2) which more than the ones mentioned should be included?

<:-)

[Jed Carty]

I have no idea what the overall name would be, but I think that including a comparison with the single file version and the normal nodejs server version would be helpful also. The most common thing I have seen people comment on about the node-based wikis is that the local file system isn't available in the same way as with the single html file version which can be important.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mat

On 10 May 2018, at 11:52, Mat <matia...@gmail.com> wrote:

...and apropos "TW manifestations" - that is actually the first problem: What the heck is it really the common factor here? Can they all be called TW servers? I need a decent collective name for it that delimits what the whole display is about.

The core docs call them “platforms”; it’s a top-level item in the TOC. (Note that the docs in GettingStarted also refer to iOS vs. Windows vs. Mac as “platforms”, so things are not totally consistent).

Best wishes

Jeremy

[Lost Admin]

Like Jed, I have no idea what the overall name would be. I'm not sure Server is the right term. Some of the ways we interact with TiddlyWiki aren't really servers, some are completely serverless (as I understand "server") and others are more infrastructure.

You should probably include:

• store.php - a traditional web server application
• Tiddlywiki Desktop - application
• WebDav on ISS, Apache, or NginX (I've got 2 working with a caveat) - a traditional server.
  
• Ye Olde Browser Save - it still works even if you have to put the file in your Downloads folder.

The back end to Note Self (if you try to implement it yourself) is more of a Web Service than a traditional server.

[EDIT] oooh, "Platforms" works.

[Mark S.]

Server-based TW vs. File-system based TW. But right away you have to distinguish between personal and impersonal servers ... so I'm not sure that it pays to make the distinction.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Might this list be starting to get rather similar to the information found in GettingStarted? Perhaps best to extend and improve what we’ve got, rather than making something new.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

On 10 May 2018, at 15:26, Lost Admin <thelos...@gmail.com> wrote:

Like Jed, I have no idea what the overall name would be. I'm not sure Server is the right term. Some of the ways we interact with TiddlyWiki aren't really servers, some are completely serverless (as I understand "server") and others are more infrastructure.

You should probably include:

• store.php - a traditional web server application
• Tiddlywiki Desktop - application

• WebDav on ISS, Apache, or NginX (all of which work with a caveat) - a traditional server.
  

• Ye Olde Browser Save - it still works even if you have to put the file in your Downloads folder.

The back end to Note Self (if you try to implement it yourself) is more of a Web Service than a traditional server.

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[Mat]

Thanks everyone. Yeah, "platforms" might be the term!

Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Might this list be starting to get rather similar to the information found in GettingStarted? Perhaps best to extend and improve what we’ve got, rather than making something new.

I agree that would make sense - eventually.

At the moment I want to experiment with the format for this though. For example, I have a (vague!) idea about a step-by-step guide/wizard that asks "Do you have access to a public server - Y/N?" , "Do you want to access your TW from multiple computers (owned by you)?" etc. Actually, the specific questions will be formulated much depending on what the actual platforms do feature and enable.

Plus, I expect it to be some work to actually gather the data for the different alternatives because I need to ask around.

<:-)

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mat

I agree that would make sense - eventually.

At the moment I want to experiment with the format for this though. For example, I have a (vague!) idea about a step-by-step guide/wizard that asks "Do you have access to a public server - Y/N?" , "Do you want to access your TW from multiple computers (owned by you)?" etc. Actually, the specific questions will be formulated much depending on what the actual platforms do feature and enable.

Yes, that’s a really interesting idea. I was thinking along similar lines when I did the new turbo-charged GettingStarted tiddler, but of course never got very far).

Best wishes

Jeremy

Plus, I expect it to be some work to actually gather the data for the different alternatives because I need to ask around.

<:-)

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[Arlen Beiler]

Technically we have four categories. Servers (including server scripts), services, notebook managers.

TiddlyServer actually is a server, and uses the NodeJS TiddlyWiki server as a tool to serve datafolders. Both are servers, but the one uses the other. 

NoteSelf, TiddlySpace, and TiddlySpot would be "services" in that they manage the data storage internally (more or less). TW in the Sky is a service as well.

TiddlyDesktop could be considered a "notebook manager". Same with Quine and AndTidWiki. 

The electron scripts that I wrote are simple wrappers that do little more than enable a wiki to work using its own code with minimal interference. I have actually written a script to load a datafolder into the Electron browser and sync changes directly to the file system using the file system adapter without using the server command at all. It sounds incredible, but it worked perfectly. I think it was a bit of a hack though. 

So we have servers (including server scripts like PHP), services (hosted by others), and notebook managers. I would say that is the three categories of platforms we have. 

Just my observations. 

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Jeremy Ruston <jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mat

I agree that would make sense - eventually.

At the moment I want to experiment with the format for this though. For example, I have a (vague!) idea about a step-by-step guide/wizard that asks "Do you have access to a public server - Y/N?" , "Do you want to access your TW from multiple computers (owned by you)?" etc. Actually, the specific questions will be formulated much depending on what the actual platforms do feature and enable.

Yes, that’s a really interesting idea. I was thinking along similar lines when I did the new turbo-charged GettingStarted tiddler, but of course never got very far).

Best wishes

Jeremy

Plus, I expect it to be some work to actually gather the data for the different alternatives because I need to ask around.

<:-)

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[TonyM]

Mat,

I think this a worthy project, it was already on my to do list. Along with a basic way to manage multiple users.

Here is some of my thinking

Lets answer your questions first

1) what would be a good collective/informative name for all these thingies? None - It would be a category error (if you want to include NoteSelf) 

2) which more than the ones mentioned should be included? All of them

   The whole ecosystem so that you can take account of the items I raise below

I assume you have looked at the system tiddlers prefixed $:/info ? Most of the below can be determined from there, to be thorough, I imagine, all you need would be to identify the saver in use.

Some terms arising?

• File wikis
  
• Folder Wikis
  
• Served
  
•   Securely served https
•   Locally Hosted
•   Hosted
• Savers
  
• Http
• File
• Tiddler (eg NoteSelf into PouchDB or CouchDB)
• Computer Platforms
  
• Server Platforms
  
• Desktop application server package
  

Here are some thoughts that may be useful, they apply to normal operation, because most hosted/Served TiddlyWikis can be Saved with a file saver.

• I would consider any tiddlywiki opened in a browser as being "served" if its address is HTTP/S
  
• Of note here the browser is not handling the disk writes
• If that address begins 127.0.0.1 I would call it "locally hosted, but this could also occur if browsing on a server
• If it was any other address we could say it was "hosted" including the dat version for the Beaker Browser
• Any TiddlyWiki opened with a path including file:// is clearly a single file wiki
• Of note here the browser is handling the disk writes even if it is through a plugin/add on
• Note when a single file wiki is Served via a Server it is hosted. 
• To me a server includes the The beaker Browser, node JS, and TiddlyServer, TiddlyDesktop,  Jeds Multi-access Bob thingy are perhaps server platforms (TiddlyWiki Servers) that use NodeJS below (the server) that come with another layer or support, especially savers.
• Perhaps these server platforms, given they have plugins the above also have savers which interestingly file savers are also savers.
• So some savers are file savers and some are http savers, or http server/saver combinations. 
• Of note is some servers support serving single file tiddlywikis
• and or Serve Folder based tiddlywikis (eg I do not think beaker browser does not serve folder based TiddlyWikis)
• Of course servers can run on multiple Computer Platforms
• TiddlySpot is a Hosted TiddlyWiki Server
• And different browsers can also run on on different Computer Platforms
• Of note the beaker browser can only access "beaker browser served" single File Wikis.
• Different browsers can use different file savers.
• Now of course TiddlyDesk top also has a Desktop application to Serve and browse, Both Folder and File wikis. the saver is built into tiddlywiki, and comes with a browser. It is a Desktop application server platform, and browser or a  Desktop application server package
• NoteSelf gets messy because it is a saver, not  a server. It can save locally in the browser (not in the file system)  or remotely to a database. Because we have the NoteSelf Saver we can call PouchDB a TiddlyWiki Server, or perhaps only a tiddler server.
• CounchDB is also a tiddler Server, but session bound in the browser. It has a Saver in addition to or combined with the PouchDB Saver.

So in closing we need a Browser (even if inbuilt) and a Saver. Some savers are file savers, some are Http savers, Some savers save Files, Some save tiddlers, some save TiddlyWiki Files (tiddlySpot) some do this over http. To access  tiddlywiki over Http a Server must exist, Servers can Serve "locally hosted" and "Hosted" TiddlyWIkis.


I hope this help

Tony

[Mat]

Arlen - your categories make much sense but to really clarify:

Would you say that "services" are really the same thing as "hosting services"?

I.e when you say that "services ... manage the data storage internally" ...is it fair to interpret this to mean that "services" is someone else deciding how you access and manipulate your data (behind the TW UI)? Whereas in "servers" you have more direct control over how you access and manipulate your data? Or does "manage the data storage internally" imply something else? (I think it is the term "internally" that I find unclear).

How about this:

Server = You serve out the TW

Service = Hosting service = Someone else serves out the TW

(Does "serve out" make sense? IMO "serve the TW" can otherwise mean the reverse direction of data, i.e that it is you who provide something to the TW.)

I imagine that the critical difference for people deciding on solution is "who is in control" - fully me or also someone else. Agree?

<:-)

[PMario]

On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 12:52:37 PM UTC+2, Mat wrote:

I hope to make a public TW for you guys that, in some matrix, lists the differences between... ehm... "TW manifestations" that deals with serving TWs e.g

The single word that caught my eye here is "matrix" ... So the first question would be

 - What to put into the rows?

 - What are the columns?

If you want to define terms, you should go with wikipedia. eg: The term "server" can have a lot of different meanings. Just to list 2: "server hardware" vs "server software" ... Both can be called "server". Both have a different meaning for different people. It depends to whom you talk. eg: Hardware-guy or Software-guy. ..

So if you need to define terms, there needs to be a link to an "authoritative" instance.

just some thoughts.

-m

[Jed Carty]

I don't think that any authoritative external source is needed, we just need to make sure that there are definitions of the terms used. People can argue all they want about if the definition is wrong but the important part is that what is shown is clearly understood. If someone ignores the definition we give and decides the table means something else we can't do anything about it.

I think that maybe a few tables like the different comparison wikipedia pages would be a good way to go, but we could make a much better interface because we can include searching and filtering for the results. An example on wikipedia is the browser comparison page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_browsers 

[PMario]

On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 10:05:26 AM UTC+2, Mat wrote:

....

I imagine that the critical difference for people deciding on solution is "who is in control" - fully me or also someone else. Agree?

Agreed!

I think, There are some basic question you have to ask here:

- "What happens to my data, if the service goes down?"

    - Can I still access my data, without any loss?

- Can I change the service provider, without modifying my TW?

    - Is my data locked in?

- What's about privacy?

------------

As I wrote at different other posts, we often trade "control and privacy" against "convenience".

eg: Since it is so convenient to use gmail, many people use it. But in the future there will be 1 more major threat against privacy, to do so. Just have a look at this frightening 2 minutes of new possibilities.

That's one more reason, why file based TiddlyWiki is so important in the future.

have fun!

mario

[Mat]

@Jeremy and anyone

I'm feeling "platforms" is probably too ambiguous after all. What do you think about "backend system" or just "backend"? IMO this is a more traditional term for what technology is used behind the scenes and touches both hardware and software and it is associated with how things are saved and stored.

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat

Great idea. I'm also enjoying the thread for the need for it to go through a bit of "conceptual wrestling" :-)

Your idea to have, maybe, a "decision wizard", if it can be made to work, I think is a good one.

For example, I have a (vague!) idea about a step-by-step guide/wizard that asks "Do you have access to a public server - Y/N?" , "Do you want to access your TW from multiple computers (owned by you)?" etc.

In terms of what are the "right" terms? Well, I'd say that has a lot to do with what is this FOR?

If its people starting out trying to get to grips with TW (and use, perhaps, the GettingStarted section in a more useful way?) one route is to concentrate mainly on objectives, not means or immediately mechanisms.

For instance, if one of a user's needs is to publish TW on the web, the fact the mechanism is a server, or not a server route, I don't think is that significant.

Looking forward to what you come up with.

J.

[Mat]

Tony, thanks for your thoughts!

1) what would be a good collective/informative name for all these thingies? None - It would be a category error (if you want to include NoteSelf)

Well, it's mostly a practical question. We/I just need a label to use when I refer to "these matters".

2) which more than the ones mentioned should be included? All of them
The whole ecosystem so that you can take account of the items I raise below

Yes. I intend to take this from a practical PoV, i.e to try to identify all the different solutions that people can choose between for setting up their TWs.

 

I assume you have looked at the system tiddlers prefixed $:/info ? Most of the below can be determined from there, to be thorough, I imagine, all you need would be to identify the saver in use.

Some terms arising?

• File wikis
  
• Folder Wikis
  

Check. File vs Folder is one of the parameters looked at.

 

• Served
  
•   Securely served https
•   Locally Hosted
•   Hosted

Hosted vs Locally hosted, agree. 

"https" is a parameter of another kind, no? Perhaps it is part of the bigger parameter "secure" or "privacy"?

 

• Savers
  
• Http
• File
• Tiddler (eg NoteSelf into PouchDB or CouchDB)

File vs Tiddler is the same as File vs Folder above, no?

And "http"... is that to specify if saving is "online vs offline"?

 

• Computer Platforms
  

...as in "possible to use on Win, iOS, Linux" yes? Any more? 

• Server Platforms
  

...as in "possible to host on Win, iOS, Linux" yes? Any more?

 

• Desktop application server package
  

As in "Is it a TW-management tool or not", yes?

As for the rest of your valuable post, I will post another post which clarifies my ambition with the project.

<:-)

[Mat]

Intention:

The idea is to identify the "critical parameters" that people want to know about when they decide on backend for their TW. 

Here is a prototype for the matrix:

http://backend.tiddlyspot.com/

I will need the actual contents of the matrix from the creators of the solutions.

It will be an iterative process: After one creator points out that his system can do X, the other creators will have to "react"  to this to inform what their solution does in this regard, if at all relevant.

Eventually it might be something useful. And eventually we might be able to turn it into some such wizard thingy or other guide.

<:-)

[Arlen Beiler]

On Fri, May 11, 2018, 4:05 AM Mat <matia...@gmail.com> wrote:

Arlen - your categories make much sense but to really clarify:

Would you say that "services" are really the same thing as "hosting services"?

A service is managed by someone else and presents an interface to the end user which requires little to no configuration on the user's part. Storage depends on the service. Tiddlyspot and tiddlyspace stored files on their own servers, whereas twcloud (aka TWitS) and noteself store the data in user-defined locations.

I.e when you say that "services ... manage the data storage internally" ...is it fair to interpret this to mean that "services" is someone else deciding how you access and manipulate your data (behind the TW UI)? Whereas in "servers" you have more direct control over how you access and manipulate your data? Or does "manage the data storage internally" imply something else? (I think it is the term "internally" that I find unclear.)

A "server" allows you to host your own "service". Maybe that makes it a little clearer. A "service" dictates what happens with your data. For instance, TiddlyServer provides the service of serving and editing files and datafolders side by side. There are practical limitations in the implementation that restrict where the data can be stored (it must be on the filesystem). But the user gets to decide how to work around that limitation (such as serving a folder that is synced with Dropbox). In this case, the server and service are bolted together like an engine and transmission. 

The twcloud service "restricts" the data to files stored in a users dropbox. But anyone can grab the files off github, modify two strings, and host them on their own server. This service is more flexible since it does not store state on the server and therefore is more like a portable pump that you put in your pickup truck bed and take wherever you need it. The same concept applies to store.php.

A "notebook manager" is a desktop application that provides a service. Again, the application and service are bolted together. But with very little modification, I could bolt TiddlyServer onto Electron and make it a "notebook manager". I guess I should have really called them "programs" or "applications". A standard browser is a readonly application when opening file URLs.

So we have two types of platforms (aka backends, or "controllers" [in MVC]) -- "servers" (which use browsers for the client) and "applications" (which have the client built in). Both provide services suited to their capabilities. 

Technically we also have the CLI, but so far that only involves manipulation of the stored data, rather than actually bringing it to the client, so it doesn't really count as a platform.  

This feels more fleshed out than my first one.

[Arlen Beiler]

TiddlyServer

*File-Folder: both

*OS: any OS with NodeJS v6+, any browser TiddlyWiki supports

*dependancies: NodeJS v6+

*offline: yes

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[TonyM]

On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 8:48:31 PM UTC+10, Mat wrote:

Tony, thanks for your thoughts!

1) what would be a good collective/informative name for all these thingies? None - It would be a category error (if you want to include NoteSelf)

Well, it's mostly a practical question. We/I just need a label to use when I refer to "these matters".

Understood, all  say is it needs to be multi-factorial, Like the matrix mentioned, the rows and columns

2) which more than the ones mentioned should be included? All of them
The whole ecosystem so that you can take account of the items I raise below

Yes. I intend to take this from a practical PoV, i.e to try to identify all the different solutions that people can choose between for setting up their TWs.

In this eco system comprehensive is the practical solution, I applaud your approach. 

 

I assume you have looked at the system tiddlers prefixed $:/info ? Most of the below can be determined from there, to be thorough, I imagine, all you need would be to identify the saver in use.

Some terms arising?

• File wikis
  
• Folder Wikis
  

Check. File vs Folder is one of the parameters looked at.

Find attached a tiddler I built recently to capture information about a TiddlyWiki as an example, I still plan to harvest more and Identify what I need to add to reach the same goals as you, knowing what and how that wiki uses the platforms?

 

 

• Served
  
•   Securely served https
•   Locally Hosted
•   Hosted

Hosted vs Locally hosted, agree. 

"https" is a parameter of another kind, no? Perhaps it is part of the bigger parameter "secure" or "privacy"?

Agreed 

 

• Savers
  
• Http
• File
• Tiddler (eg NoteSelf into PouchDB or CouchDB)

File vs Tiddler is the same as File vs Folder above, no?

And "http"... is that to specify if saving is "online vs offline"?

No, Tiddler is when data is saved tiddler by Tiddler, not in monolithic single file, or in a Folder structure as with Node JS.

 

 

• Computer Platforms
  

...as in "possible to use on Win, iOS, Linux" yes? Any more?

Android 

• Server Platforms
  

...as in "possible to host on Win, iOS, Linux" yes? Any more?

Android, Beaker Browser Data Files, Docker packages, Amazon, Office 365, SharePoint, Apache?

 

 

• Desktop application server package
  

As in "Is it a TW-management tool or not", yes?

Not only a management tool, it is an installed application and can server file and node servers on the network (Apparently but not yet done buy me), Like Jeds Single File multi-user which runs as a Desktop application (as does not but does not do anything on its own)

 

As for the rest of your valuable post, I will post another post which clarifies my ambition with the project.

Thanks, Keep the channels open

 

<:-)

Regards

Tony 

[TonyM]

Post Script

Server platforms can be WebServer Platforms (http/s) and File Server Platforms eg; Drive, DropBox, One Drive can be used to serve single File Based wikis sometimes as well as Web Server Platforms. 

Important distinction to avoid later confusion.

Tony

[TonyM]

Jed,

Agreed but what ever the definition, if it is authoritative or not (Desirable), it must be totally internally consistent. I expect whatever we start with will, it need some changes. As in My Post including servers and savers, files and http.

Great that we have a tool like tiddlywiki to do this with :)

Regards

Tony

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ermmm?

Are you really sure you want to call this "Back End"?

:-)

[BurningTreeC]

Ermmm?

Are you really sure you want to call this "Back End"?

:-)

Does Backend refer to the end of the back? 

[Jed Carty]

Classification for these things is a difficult task. The contentiously named Bob could be considered both a manager and a server.

The Contentiously Named Bob may be a good name for it.

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Ermmm?

Are you really sure you want to call this "Back End"?

Not good? Because of funny associations or is it misleading? According to wikipedia...

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Odd associations mainly. It wasn't meant as a heavy comment. And I think the number of people who understand "back-end" in its ribald sense here is probably low. I actually think its not bad.

However, looking over that pretty vast list I'm not sure its quite right either. HOWEVER, I completely get the pattern needs to emerge and shape a bit yet. I'm interested to see how it develops. The discussion was fascinating--the conceptual complexities. The table with the dropdowns is neat.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Mat]

[back 

However, looking over that pretty vast list I'm not sure its quite right either. HOWEVER, I completely get the pattern needs to emerge and shape a bit yet. I'm interested to see how it develops. The discussion was fascinating--the conceptual complexities.

I agree that the current list - which comes from the GettingStarted listing of how to save tiddlers/TWs - is not quite the same as how one should "set up" a TW. I think the saving part is pretty much solved when you have your "set up" (backend) in place. Regardless, the current entries in my listing is just temporary.

<:-)

[BurningTreeC]

Odd associations mainly. It wasn't meant as a heavy comment. And I think the number of people who understand "back-end" in its ribald sense here is probably low. I actually think its not bad.

Only me. 

However, looking over that pretty vast list I'm not sure its quite right either. HOWEVER, I completely get the pattern needs to emerge and shape a bit yet. I'm interested to see how it develops. The discussion was fascinating--the conceptual complexities. The table with the dropdowns is neat.

Backend, however is also commonly used for "whats lying below/beyond"

[Arlen Beiler]

I guess we could do something like this:

It looks like the checked boxes don't carry through when I send it like this, but you get the idea.

	TiddlyWiki	TiddlyServer	Basic save enabled servers	MultiUser Plugin
Serve single files
Update single files*
Serve other files
Upload new files
Serve a single data folder
Serve multiple data folders
Update data folders
Create new datafolders
Uses the server command**
Supports multiple users

* If "Serve other files" is also supported, it is likely that all existing files may be updated, not just wikis.

** NodeJS only: Loads the server command code (node tiddlywiki.js --server) and uses it to handle requests. Some load the code in the same process (less memory) and some load it as a separate node process (better performance).

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[Mat]

Arlen, thank you for your illustration.  - but I'm afraid I don't quite understand: Your illustration seems to be for the one filling out the matrix with the data (which I've assumed will have to be me). After this, your suggested checkboxes would merely serve as a static display to indicate which backend solutions that fulfill some criteria... in which case it would probably be better with some image instead of checkboxes. Or do I misunderstand you?

I'm thinking checkboxes might be useful as a means to select criteria from a list (as opposed to a matrix) that lists the criteria. Checking them could build up some filter that is used to list the backend solutions that fulfill those criteria.

Please clarify. You come with valuable input.

<:-)

[Mat]

http://backend.tiddlyspot.com

I've worked a bit more on it (and I noted it was saved in a very messy state last time). Still note it is not really official yet.

The actual work is mostly for myself to make it easy to fill in data (e.g hover to access field editors). I'll probably make it appear static from an end users point of view.

Still, the main work is to identify what criteria are there and which "back-ends" should be listed. Please come with input about what makes sense and what doesn't.

<:-)