Does that TW is a Quine matter? YES.

[TiddlyTweeter]

I think it helps a lot grasping TW IS a Quine.

Quines are usually thought experiments in computer science. A Quine is a program (or system) that is capable of SELF-CONTAINED SELF-MODIFICATION. Its output is its input. That means it CHANGES ITSELF. Next iteration its persistently different than prior.

BUT TW is NOT a thought experiment. TW is a very rare example of an actually working Quine for practical ends.

That is both unusual and important.

I keep trying to convince tech computeristas this is very significant to no avail. They say, so what?

IMO the architecture of TW is FUNDAMENTALLY Quine, and grasping that helps A LOT.

Best wishes

TT

[Mat]

I agree knowing this does "something" positive to the grasping of TW. I'm just not sure how to express it any more than as "TW is a quine which means ..." It is a kind of information porn -- exciting per se, but what do we do with this? What are the practical implications beyond the mere fact, for a TW user?

<:-)

[TiddlyTweeter]

Right.

You can't DO anything with it per se.

Like you can't do anything with a BASIS. Electricity comes from wires. So watt?

Its not a debate.Its the system ITSELF.

Grasping it is also a conceptual orientation I think helps. In computer science Quines are largely a theory.

Yet TW is a robust application that IS a Quine by nature, not experiment.

in this it is VERY UNUSUAL. If we push that on I could say how it ramifies.

You likely could too.

TT

[TonyM]

As I have said previously if you read about them on the internet, too many times they refer to minimal, or trivial Quines.

I suspect the shine has gone off the concept because University lecturers have pointed the trivial ones out.

Perhaps if you call it a non-trivial Quine, some may notice.

Regards

Tony

[TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:

Perhaps if you call it a non-trivial Quine, some may notice.

It is called TiddlyWiki. TW is a functional Quine.  

Notice what you are using it already. Everyday in everyway.

It  WILL get notice as a Quine when users realise it is one routinely.

TT

[Joshua Fontany]

Thanks for this, I think this realization has a lot of potential to allow TW users to deeply explore certain "cognitive spaces" (//topics//).

For example, I really need to get all of Buckminster Fuller's work into a TW, especially his Synergenics.

TiddlyWiki is a Quine, a Quine is a Software Pattern Integrity (Fuller):

 “Pattern Integrity is when a pattern has integrity independent of the medium by virtue of which you have received the information that it exists.” - Bucky Fuller

All triangles share certain inherent properties that allow one to recognize it AS a triangle, even though no two individual manifest triangles "are the same".

Same holds true for TiddlyWikis.

Best,
Joshua Fontany

[TiddlyTweeter]

Joshua

That is a Good comment invoking Bucky Fuller. It gives some more meat to the bones of Quine.

IMO the Quine nature of TW matters a lot. It is often seen as "so what?"  Actually it has real consequences that help.

Like you, I know concepts of function matter.

I hope we might get this better understood?

Best wishes

TT

[Birthe C]

TT,

To be honest, it does not make me understand anything about Quine, that helps me. My thought went more in the direction of a grook by Piet Hein.

To make a name for learning
when other roads are barred
take something very easy
and make it very hard.

LOL.

Birthe

[Peter Buyze]

Birthe,

for a moment I thought you were referring to the Dutch admiral, but then, he was not a poet so it had to be someone else ;-)

4 May 2020, 12:22 by strikke...@gmail.com:

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[Peter Buyze]

A direct descendent.

4 May 2020, 12:22 by strikke...@gmail.com:

TT,

[PMario]

Hi,

For me it doesn't matter at all.

Quine is a word that had no meaning for me since I did look it up on wikipedia.

In wikipedia there is a list of (sorry to say) useless code, that prints useless code, which they call a Quine.

So calling TiddlyWiki a Quine may only be useful for developers with a high "nerd factor", which are interested in Quines.

For the rest of us, it may be "... code, that prints ... code"

just my thought

-mario

[Mark S.]

That's kind of what I was thinking. I'm still waiting for an example of why it should matter.

220, 221. Whatever it takes

[Joshua Fontany]

I think concrete use-cases ARE important. Imagine having a "Glossary" wiki that you have been updating. It has some appropriate logic/plugins to handle diff-ing and flagging $:/Import tiddlers for approval. You hand that Glossary out to 20 people, who drag and drop it into their own "woking" wikis. They each make their own changes/additions to the Glossary tiddlers, some maybe changing grammar, some maybe adding hundreds of new terms. You collect copies of their wikis and one at a time drop them onto your Master Wiki, which is setup to strip out new Glossary changes and let you flag them for import or not. You clean up/organize, and then send those 20 people an updated Glossary wiki. They drop it on their local copies, and all your "approved" changes are there instantly.

That's a pretty cool idea for software. "TWederation" would be allowing this to happen with less manual intervention.

You definitely can't do that with any other data-storage file-type.....

Best,
Joshua F

[Ste Wilson]

http://twederation.tiddlyspot.com/

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario

I doubt it "matters" for most functional issues.

I think it matters conceptually.

Of course I'm likely to be wrong on vote. I got that already. My interest in quines got no joy on Twitter. But that doesn't mean its not relevant.

I think the issue is what "frames" of thought you approach TW from.

That it is a quine is significant. The fact you don't find it significant is a take.

Best wishes

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

But Mark

TW is already the example!

TT