Twitter News -- Short Discussion of Logo

[@TiddlyTweeter]

A short discussion starts here: https://twitter.com/ABSamma/status/1028771729689255938 asking for a "Fish" not a "Cat" logo.

Just for info, and comment, if you have one.

@TiddlyTweeter

[barro...@gmail.com]

o.0 what is this blashemy?  As spokesperson for K.A.O.S. (Kats Against Organization and Sanity), I say "NAY".  There can be no eroding of feline dominance of the human Internet...

That would be my comment- I'm no help. *g,d&r*

[Mark S.]

While a fish makes more sense, the cat is a better basis for a logo.

Better to change the TiddlyWiki name entirely to something that will get more traction, if that's the goal.

I'm not sure if this is been mentioned, but TiddlyWiki is only a couple letters off from "Tiddly Winks", an increasingly obscure children's game whose use always implied that one had too much idle time on their hands. This makes the actual name something of an embarrassment even for the most fervent of TW evangelists.

-- Mark

[TonyM]

Mark,

While agreeing the name is not perfect it is "our brand". Its uniqueness is actualy a valuable feature.

One way out of this is to consistently use a tag line with the name eg;

Application and website development platform TiddlyWiki.

Thus people will come see it as what we say it is and use the name as a lable.

A real world example may be "red hat" linux.

Regards
Tony

[@TiddlyTweeter]

barro...@CatMail.com

I basically purr your way.

J.

barro...@gmail.com wrote:

... There can be no eroding of feline dominance of the human Internet...

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote:

While a fish makes more sense, the cat is a better basis for a logo.

I agree. Not least that a cat can occupy a square or a circle. Last year Twitter forced AVIs into circles. The several TW cats on there (https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter/lists/tiddlywiki-international/members) all needed to tweak a bit. But a Fish would have had a hard time and require a very good re-designer. In any case, fish are too long.

J.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote:

Better to change the TiddlyWiki name entirely to something that will get more traction, if that's the goal.

Right. There are the two aspects.

   -- The image/mascot/logo.

   -- The name.

The author of the original post on Twitter, I think, was inclining to the view that the "logo" should in some way reflect the name.

My general view is that "you don't mess with it till its time"--since the cat is the thing most used already. I sort of think that TW drifted into the feline world? Its associated with it now? It works visually well.

But when the time comes--like a completely new version--code-name TWX--maybe rethink image AND name.

J.

[Mark S.]

Kitty-Wiki ?

Just to repeat -- to a big chunk of the world the name "TiddlyWiki" sounds a lot like the maligned game "Tiddly Winks". To people hearing it that way, you might have as well called it "TiddlyWeakling". It definitely lacks gravitas.

Word association is a powerful effect. People have lost their jobs because they used perfectly benign words that happened to phonetically resemble pejorative terms.

Even if more people associated "Tiddler" with "Fish", would that be a good thing? "FishyWiki" ?

For that matter, though a tiddler may be a fish, what exactly is a "Tiddly" ?

-- Mark

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote:

Just to repeat -- to a big chunk of the world the name "TiddlyWiki" sounds a lot like the maligned game "Tiddly Winks". To people hearing it that way, you might have as well called it "TiddlyWeakling"...

... It definitely lacks gravitas.

I agree.

-- Tiddly implies "diminutive," which TW definitely is not. What I think has happened is that a great metaphor celebrating "The Fragment" ("Tiddler" as a key aspect of functional architecture) has been conflated with its purpose--as if fragments mattered. IMO end-users are interested in wholes they can make, not so much the bits that form them or the recipes involved. Tiddlers are a part the "Cooking Story", not the "Dish Made". The name would better be the dish not the cooking method. Something like that.

To put that another way... its better to focus on user final intent in naming than how the thing works.

-- Wiki is contentious. Personally I think its unnecessary. Yes, TW is in a Wiki tradition, but it also somewhat elliptical to it. If you look at listings of different Wiki you will quickly see that TW is rarely represented properly. It is somewhat orthogonal to how those listings work. I don't think I have seen a single accurate representation of TW as a Wiki other than within the TW community.

Early thoughts
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:

While agreeing the name is not perfect it is "our brand". Its uniqueness is actualy a valuable feature.

 I agree that messing with logos and names NOW for TW5 would just get messy with no benefit.

What came up in the original post on Twitter was the idea that the "logo/mascot" should match the name. From there came the questions: (1) is it a GOOD name? (2) is it the RIGHT image? (cat).

I think the real intent was towards imagining what could be, later, rather than changing anything now.

By way of suggested forethought, if we need an Animal Logo in the future (TWX), I'd personally vote for the CHAMELEON. 

Best wishes
Josiah

[Adam Shepherd]

Hello!

New forum member here.

I discovered TW about a year ago and I'm completely in love with it since. I never understood the cat.
I'm a designer and it took me precisely 7 minutes to cook up a square-ish (in its aspect-ratio, but the actual fish is intended to be friendly hence the curved lines) fish logo for TW that I think is better than the cat. It is more thematically linked. I also incorporated the brilliant idea from the poster.

Keep in mind that this is a VERY ROUGH, FAST SKETCH but I imagine it could work. Think of it as a proof of concept.

Let me know if there is an official interest for a logo design for TW. I'd be very, very happy to do it. (I'd love to give something back for this amazing tool and I'm not good at coding, but logo design... that I can do.)

[Enneco Gotzon]

Hi Adam.

I also believe that as TW logo your proposal is much more suitable than the current cat; thank you.

I think you have designed a good logo, but with all humility and due respect regarding your work, I would like to make a few aesthetic suggestions:

1. To better represent a graceful little fish I would stylize the stroke, avoiding thickening—I think that the thickened outline, specially in the head area, adds too much consistency.
2. I would avoid prolonging the upper right arm of the Y up to what can be interpreted as the anal-urinary area of the fish because it could be interpreted as an excretion.
3. I believe that a logo should only convey the essence of the message. In addition, most of the time our TW logo will be a little image. Consequently, I would simplify its design as much as possible, showing only the essentials.

I hope to be relevant.

I apologize for my audacity.

Take care.

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 3:19 PM, Adam Shepherd <krr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello!

New forum member here.

I discovered TW about a year ago and I'm completely in love with it since. I never understood the cat.

I'm a designer and it took me precisely 7 minutes to cook up a square-ish (in its aspect-ratio, but the actual fish is intended to be friendly hence the curved lines) fish logo for TW that I think is better than the cat. It is more thematically linked. I also incorporated the brilliant idea of the poster.

Keep in mind that this is a VERY ROUGH, FAST SKETCH but I imagine it could work. Think of it as a proof of concept.

Let me know if there is an official interest for a logo design for TW. I'd be very, very happy to do it. (I'd love to give something back for this amazing tool and I'm not good at coding, but logo design...half my life was spent doing that.)

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 11:08:25 AM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Mark S. wrote:

While a fish makes more sense, the cat is a better basis for a logo.

I agree. Not least that a cat can occupy a square or a circle. Last year Twitter forced AVIs into circles. The several TW cats on there (https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter/lists/tiddlywiki-international/members) all needed to tweak a bit. But a Fish would have had a hard time and require a very good re-designer. In any case, fish are too long.

J.

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--

Enneco-Gotzon Ares

Sciencia, Ethica, Esthetica

Democracia, Republica​, Empresa​

EH, Wasconia, NA Osso

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[Adam Shepherd]

Thank you! No need to apologize.

I agree with your points and no worries for pointing out its weaknesses - It was just a "napkin-sketch" response to "Not least that a cat can occupy a square or a circle. [as opposed to a cat]" and that "But a Fish would have had a hard time and require a very good re-designer. In any case, fish are too long." Neither of these are correct, and I only pointed out that it only took a few minutes to come up with an ad-hoc solution to shed light on this fact.

I don't intend to work on it unless there is some confirmation that a change is indeed a possibility. Or that if the result is convincing it will be considered for a future release.

In that event, it'll take weeks to explore the possibilities, not minutes.

On the second point, though - It was intended to be seen as excretion. I always interpreted the poster this way. As a joke. When I posted my response I re-examined the poster and realized that it might not mean what I thought. :D I still think that its a funny idea with the slogan "Your messy thoughts, Organized" ... But it is probably not fitting to the tiddlywiki branding so I agree.

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[Enneco Gotzon]

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:40 PM, Adam Shepherd <krr...@gmail.com> wrote:

No need to apologize.

Thank you Adam :)

I don't intend to work on it unless there is some confirmation that a change is indeed a possibility.

I'm just a humble -and grateful- TW user.

 

On

 this

kind

 of questions [brand logo, name…]

I prefer let the TW programmers to be the ones that decide

;

t

hey deserve to be satisfied.

I would be willing to collaborate in a consensual process

us

of adapt

at

i

o

n

or re-creation of the TW logo

,

promoting, for example

,

online surveys

[

Google Forms…

]

 about

 

its

relevance, possibilities, etc.

But y

ou must know 

that 

I'm not fluent in English

; 

I would need much more time than you to try to achieve the same goals.

It was intended to be seen as excretion…

A punk between us… ;) Welcome :)

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[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Adam

Your sketch is great — it’s lively and cheerful in a way that non-designers like me can never achieve. I’d love to see what you can do with more time.

But, as you maybe guessed, I’m not super keen on changing the logo, for a bunch of reasons:

* Changing it will be surprisingly expensive in terms of my time and attention — the current logo is embedded in several TiddlyWiki-related software projects, it’s also used on social media. The problem here is the opportunity cost: changing the logo consumes a bunch of time on fiddly changes but doesn’t really get the project any closer to its goals

* Motovun Jack has been the logo for TiddlyWiki5 since the project started in 2011, with a self-avowed goal of having a lifetime of 25 years. Taking a long view of this project, I don’t mind improving and refining the logo (as Mozilla have done), but I don’t like the idea of completely changing it to a different animal while we’re still in the first 25 years

* Motovun Jack became the logo for two reasons. Firstly, I met him and struck up a friendship when I was on a brief holiday just as I left my job at BT to pursue working on TW5 full time. He was sitting by me as I scribbled the first notes of my plans for the project. Secondly, I reasoned that a cat is a consumer of tiddlers…

Meanwhile, when I look at TiddlyWiki 5 I see a few areas where a skilled designer could bring improvements that might benefit all users:

* The “Snow White” theme is pale and lifeless, and doesn’t use typography well

* The “edit template” is jumbled and confusing, with no clear visual hierarchy

* The TW5 default colour palettes are a good start, but not great

In summary, I’m happy to consider tweaks/improvements to the current logo, but I’m much more excited about the other areas where skills like yours can bring so much more value.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

On 21 Aug 2018, at 14:19, Adam Shepherd <krr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello!

New forum member here.

I discovered TW about a year ago and I'm completely in love with it since. I never understood the cat.

I'm a designer and it took me precisely 7 minutes to cook up a square-ish (in its aspect-ratio, but the actual fish is intended to be friendly hence the curved lines) fish logo for TW that I think is better than the cat. It is more thematically linked. I also incorporated the brilliant idea of the poster.

Keep in mind that this is a VERY ROUGH, FAST SKETCH but I imagine it could work. Think of it as a proof of concept.

<Auto Generated Inline Image 1.jpeg>

Let me know if there is an official interest for a logo design for TW. I'd be very, very happy to do it. (I'd love to give something back for this amazing tool and I'm not good at coding, but logo design...half my life was spent doing that.)

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 11:08:25 AM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Mark S. wrote:

While a fish makes more sense, the cat is a better basis for a logo.

I agree. Not least that a cat can occupy a square or a circle. Last year Twitter forced AVIs into circles. The several TW cats on there (https://twitter.com/TiddlyTweeter/lists/tiddlywiki-international/members) all needed to tweak a bit. But a Fish would have had a hard time and require a very good re-designer. In any case, fish are too long.

J.

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[John Newell]

I have read most of the posts on this and have a few suggestions, notions and comments on potentially creating the right brand for tiddlywiki.

I am aware I may be shot down for this - but I echo the years of comments from hundreds of clients and friends with whom I have shared the wonder of TW.

Almost to a man ( or woman ) they scoff at "tiddlywiki" as being twee in their perspective of the "brand / name"

• Adam Shepherd's design rings true in many ways .... but mostly in the icon / logo being square ( best shape for most uses )
• Since I first bumped into TW - I believe the "disconnects" are the "wiki" "tiddly" "cat" "fish"
  
• With the exception of wiki - what purpose for recall do the animals have? If you HAD TO USE AND ANIMAL - perhaps an elephant would portray the ability to never forget or lose data, ideas etc .
  
  
• Some relevant google search results
• ...Tumblr 1.86B
• ...Posterous - closed for 5 years now  1.79M
• ...tiddlywiki  682K  ------ not many by comparison - so any rebranding will be HOPEFULLY witnessed by a fresh new market -
  
  there's little damage that can be done with a brand / logo change
  as those who know TW ARE  the vast majority of those who use it.
  
  The big market is still out there waiting to discover the magic tiddlywiki offers.
  and they are  unaware of the branding issue
  
  
• TW is a magic organiser in one place
• one file - with all it's parts beautifully connected  -
  
• easy to learn -
  
• a wondrous challenge to master -
  
• globally useful -
  
• free -
  
• a community of support and ideas.
  
  
• My suggestion for the LOGO - ) for the likes of Adam Shepherd to mock up ) - is a spherical rubiks cube -
  
  sort of like this BUT with :
  
  
  • a variety of colour
  • fewer "nodes"
  • more variance between closed and open .....
    
    
    https://icon2.kisspng.com/20180308/itq/kisspng-3d-computer-graphics-ball-stereoscopy-red-cube-sphere-5aa10bf3622201.336600641520503795402.jpg

• 
  
• where every "node" is interconnected..
• and easy to manipulate
  
  
• That also represents :
  
• global,
  
• malleable,
  
• smart,
  
• organised,
  
• solid,
  
• reliable in operation ......
  
  
• and ( sort of emulates the wikipedia format but dynamic - ref :
  
  
  "just saying "
  

 

[Enneco Gotzon]

On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 11:10 AM John Newell <magil...@gmail.com> wrote:

• My suggestion for the LOGO - is a spherical rubiks cube

I like it! Thank you! 

I

think it is a good idea to 

be inspired by the Wikipedia logo and to represent the essence of TW:

interconnected

,

 dynamic nodes of knowledge.

I

believe

 that

taking enough care

about

TW's 

branding

 would help

to

popularize the project

, but a

s in this [fantastic] group there are people much more capable than me, and also I want respect both Jeremy's attachment to the current logo and his priorities about TW goals and effectiveness, I think it's better that I leave this topic to our experts and [esteemed] programmers.

• sort of like this BUT with :
  
  
  • a variety of colour
  • fewer "nodes"

-1: To indicate the TW capability to create and connect information nodes, it seems relevant that its logo shows a sufficient amount, a reasonable abundance of nodes.

• • more variance between closed and open .....
    
    
    https://icon2.kisspng.com/20180308/itq/kisspng-3d-computer-graphics-ball-stereoscopy-red-cube-sphere-5aa10bf3622201.336600641520503795402.jpg

• 
  
• where every "node" is interconnected..
• and easy to manipulate
  
  
• That also represents :
  
• global,
  
• malleable,
  
• smart,
  
• organised,
  
• solid,
  
• reliable in operation ......
  
  
• and ( sort of emulates the wikipedia format but dynamic - ref :
  
  
  "just saying "
  

 

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[bimlas]

Take a look at these sites:

- https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/list_of_applications#Graphical

- https://www.slant.co/options/5116/~tiddlywiki-review

- https://www.wikimatrix.org/compare/TiddlyWiki+DokuWiki+MediaWiki

- https://alternativeto.net/software/tiddlywiki/

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiddlyWiki

The logo (at least some kind of it) is shown only on the last two. While viewing these sites, did you looked at the logo of the site itself? I don't think so. How do you recognize a site? I think the colors and the shape, the overall design gives more "personality" to a website than an "avatar", an icon. I absolutely agree with Jeremy that Tiddly needs design improvements instead of replacing an image what you see in very rare times. If a newcomer wants to know Tiddly, he/she will try it out and will never met with the logo until he/she look for it exactly (well, OK, the favicon is the logo), but the "feeling" of the site will affect him/her.

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi all

I am not a cat fan in general, but I support Jeremy in this case:

a cat is a consumer of tiddlers…

By the way: Why would anyone put a horse as a logo on a car? Horses are no longer needed, now we have cars. And: My computer has nothing to do with agriculural products like Apples. And so on.

So let's keep the established cat and invest time in more fruitful projects.

Cheers,

Thomas

[John Newell]

interesting response

you've missed the objective of the purpose of a logo - which is primarily

the identifier face of a company or product -

and to create a subliminal link between thelogo/icon and the brand name.

it is neant to have a RECOGNITION FACTOR

which is not delivered by the look or functionality of a webpage

if that WAS the case then you'd identify this top 20 globalwebsite in an instant - which i am sure 90% + would not ( i am confident about that having just tested it by blurring only 2 small parts of the home page
.
10% recognition factor isn't branding






Sent from my iPhone

[Mark S.]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 2:10:16 AM UTC-7, John Newell wrote:

With the exception of wiki - what purpose for recall do the animals have? If you HAD TO USE AND ANIMAL - perhaps an elephant would portray the ability to never forget or lose data, ideas etc .

Already taken by a company with $300 million dollar investment that is very likely to take a dim view of anyone else's elephant.

 

• • 
    
    https://icon2.kisspng.com/20180308/itq/kisspng-3d-computer-graphics-ball-stereoscopy-red-cube-sphere-5aa10bf3622201.336600641520503795402.jpg

 

It should be tilted 20 degrees to better convey the "earth" connotation and parallel wikipedia. If it's like a Rubik's cube, it should be in multiple colors. The red color would clash with most of the main TW themes.

-- Mark

[Mark S.]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 2:12:18 PM UTC-7, Thomas Elmiger wrote:

a cat is a consumer of tiddlers…

So what's needed is a logo of a cat holding a tiddler in it's mouth ;-)

 

By the way: Why would anyone put a horse as a logo on a car? Horses are no longer needed, now we have cars. And: My computer has nothing to do with agriculural products like Apples. And so on.

Which raises that old question, if a jar with a picture of peanuts contains peanut butter, what does a jar with a picture of a baby contain?

-- Mark

 

[John Newell]

2 points :

(1) apologies if i mis-comminicated that - there's no way i am suggestIng thd use of an elephant styled icon / logo ..... i was merely illustrating the connectons  that can be made or aligned with certain animals or icons .....

(2) the "rubix cube'" styled sphere should bd :

- fewer in "stems" for a simplified vetsion that is cohesive in smaller renditions .... and with a range of colours to suggest diversity of content utility..... i am working on a simplified version where the stem "faces" show icons for text, images, links, docs, etc 

Bottom lime is that proffering ideas  that may assist Jeremy's objectives are supportive and mag resonate with him.

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John Newell about.me/j.newell

[abes...@gmail.com]

This is a fantastic candidate. Mark my words, the days of Kitty kat in the logo are numbered. ;)

--Abraham

On Tuesday, August 21, 2018 at 4:19:45 PM UTC+3, Adam Shepherd wrote:

Hello!

New forum member here.

I discovered TW about a year ago and I'm completely in love with it since. I never understood the cat.
I'm a designer and it took me precisely 7 minutes to cook up a square-ish (in its aspect-ratio, but the actual fish is intended to be friendly hence the curved lines) fish logo for TW that I think is better than the cat. It is more thematically linked. I also incorporated the brilliant idea from the poster.

Keep in mind that this is a VERY ROUGH, FAST SKETCH but I imagine it could work. Think of it as a proof of concept.

Let me know if there is an official interest for a logo design for TW. I'd be very, very happy to do it. (I'd love to give something back for this amazing tool and I'm not good at coding, but logo design...half my life was spent doing that.)

[abes...@gmail.com]

How about reserving it for version X/6?

--Abraham

[abes...@gmail.com]

Alan Shepard's logo design reminds me of kanji calligraphic art in Japan. I find it very soothing!

--Abraham

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Abraham

On 23 Aug 2018, at 11:45, abes...@gmail.com wrote:

How about reserving it for version X/6?

Yes, indeed, TWX will represent a fresh start, perhaps with a new name and I think qualifies for a new logo…

Best wishes

Jeremy.

[barro...@gmail.com]

Jeremy,

I figured keeping with Motovun Jack also out of tradition, he was the mascot from the very beginning.  And it all a matter of perspective, me and plenty others don't associate Tiddly with fish but with small and a kitten seems fitting enough for the name.  Been then I copuld also be accused of been prejudiced in my views, considering my ties with K.A.O.S.<< >>>  The log be approved : D

Meanwhile, when I look at TiddlyWiki 5 I see a few areas where a skilled designer could bring improvements that might benefit all users:

Is that a call for opportunities for graphics' designers of the community?  If you don't mind, perhaps I should post that segment of your post in a new thread so more noticeable than among this all the ext of this thread.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Is that a call for opportunities for graphics' designers of the community?  If you don't mind, perhaps I should post that segment of your post in a new thread so more noticeable than among this all the ext of this thread.

Great idea. It would be terrific to make a clearer path for designers to contribute to the project.

Best wishes

Jeremy

[@TiddlyTweeter]

barro...@gmail.com wrote:

Is that a call for opportunities for graphics' designers of the community? If you don't mind, perhaps I should post that segment of your post in a new thread so more noticeable than among this all the ext of this thread.

Jeremy Ruston replied:

Great idea. It would be terrific to make a clearer path for designers to contribute to the project.

This thread has been interesting & helpful.

Whilst "the cat" remains the current moniker for TW several issues arose relevant to future design ...

1 - Should the image in some way be more tightly connect to the intent? Personally I thought John Newell's posts, starting at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/el52HKBX0Uc/R0S_-gQKAgAJ, were in that ballpark. John works commercially with promoting TW. He points to some kind of logo that illustrates that TW could be centred on a central function of combining "bits into wholes."

2 - Should the image be an animal? Why? I love cats so I do like the IMAGE. But, longer term, is it a fit? I mean does a young cat visually express characteristics of TW? If its an animal I get a sense more of the Chameleon than either fish or cat.

3 -  Adam Sherpard's fish is an excellent proto-design (albeit I was the one saying "fish are too long") showing what a good designer can do. The conceptual problem IMO is that "fish in TW come in shoals", not singular. Tiddlers I don't think make sense alone (here I'm reverting to point 1.)

Good visual design takes time. Its not the image per se that is usually most of the work. Its clarifying what one needs to represent.

Best wishes
Josiah

[bimlas]

I don't mind about the logo but if I had to choose an image which represents the philosophy of TiddlyWiki, then I would vote to these:

- http://blogs.cardenalcisneros.es/childrenslit2016/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/box.jpg

The box from The Little Prince: it contains anything what you imagine, as a tiddler does.

- https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/js/untangle.html

This game reminds me to Tiddly, because it has nodes which are connected in numerous ways.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

bimlas wrote:

... I would vote ...

- http://blogs.cardenalcisneros.es/childrenslit2016/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/box.jpg

The box from The Little Prince: it contains anything what you imagine, as a tiddler does.

That is a really interesting image. I think the "unknown" about what is inside the box might also be a little scary ... :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTjUzT-xto4

Best wishes
Josiah

[barro...@gmail.com]

I have been abstaining from seriously weighing in on the subject...

You really don't want input from someone who labels their "nuts n bolts" tiddlers by the following theme:

smoke n mirrors
now you see it...
Hookah Haze (UI)
abracadabra
hoodoo
voodoo
Skunkworks
Klaatu... verata... n-...

that last one is the ToC subheader for failed experiments *g,d&r*

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I just watched this great animation: THE CAT CAME BACK. Shaking off the cat may not be easy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW9f04Dctz4

... despite fish enthusiasts ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhrQWz0LXSg :-)

[Arlen Beiler]

Totally! This has been my biggest pain point with TiddlyWiki. The pallate system is excellent but underused by the vanilla theme. We don't have enough good looking pallates. I made a dark background pallate that I use in all my wikis but I had to do a couple tweaks, I think. And codemirror should use the pallate for the background and foreground colors.

[TonyM]

On this now "completed" discussion. I would like to make a clear statement, of my opinion. 

History

We should do our best to maintain our historically established "image" in the world, but the truth is TiddlyWiki is moving beyond its original, already extensive, capabilities and as has being noted it's name can appear trivial to others. 

I even recall in the dim pre-tiddlywiki past the game of TiddlyWinks being used in a derogatory sense as a trivial and non intellectual pass time, perhaps a time waster for feeble minds. Also the Wiki part of tiddlywiki underplays its real capabilities.

Yet

As has being done many times before I believe we can get the best of both worlds, buy expanding rather than contracting, qualifying rather than changing.

My Suggestion is to continuously and actively mention tiddlywiki with the following "qualification", which points to its grander capabilities and counteract any perceived limitations.

The TiddlyWiki Platform

• I suggest you look at the "tiddlywiki platform"
  
• You could host it on the "tiddlywiki platform"
  
• Your answer may be the "tiddlywiki platform"
  
• I have seen a solution like that on the "tiddlywiki platform"
  
• Have you tried the "tiddlywiki platform"
  
• The tiddlywiki "tiddlywiki platform" can host websites
  
• The tiddlywiki "tiddlywiki platform" can provide a non-linear personal web notebook
  
• You can build applications on the "tiddlywiki platform"
  
• You can uses the "tiddlywiki platform" to learn about HTML CSS, JavaScript and more
  
• The "tiddlywiki platform" is great for creating structured and non structured Databases
  
• You can use the "tiddlywiki platform" for interactive documents
• etc....

My 20cents worth

Tony