⁂ Need pretty face for TWederation

[Mat]

TWederation and TiddlyWiki networks... Oh-that's-not-my-concern-I'm-just-a-regular-TW-user"

If YOU are thinking along those lines, then I'm particularly talking to you here! I will request your help about how to best present explanations for exactly those things, for you:

...

The shaping of the TWederation and "TiddlyWiki networks" is choppily progressing. It works(!) and there is even a real Discussions application in use - and there is a certain JEDi master to thank for it, along with input from a few of us mortals. It's not quite official yet so I won't link to it here though.

Now, we need a "front face" for the world (i.e for you!) that presents/explains what (the heck) TWederation is and why and how etc - !?

So I've made a draft here, for an entry point to everything concerning TWederation, but I ask YOU; What needs to be covered in such an entry point? What is needed to make it the obvious GO-TO site when someone is curious about "connecting wikis"?

The concern at this stage is more about main ideas, structure and general topics rather than specific details.

Note that the actual TWederation site needs some more work first.before it is officially announced.... and then hopefully with the pretty front face on it.

<:-)

[Josiah]

Ciao Mat

I'm interested in it. At the same (as I'm sure you know) I have trouble grasping specifics.

A few things that might help people like me are ...

1 - A step-by-step VIDEO showing someone (1) setting it up (2) doing a few of the different types of message and (3) and showing some responses to those messages. A sort of "Day In The Life Of Twederation"

2 - A few screen shots or illustrations of what it LOOKS like.

From reading the draft I can see, in good TW tradition, some of the driving ideas & actual functions are very different from stuff I normally encounter. All to the good. But its a bit of hurdle for me to "twig" it properly yet.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Mat]

Josiah, thanks for input.

 

1 - A step-by-step VIDEO showing someone (1) setting it up (2) doing a few of the different types of message and (3) and showing some responses to those messages. A sort of "Day In The Life Of Twederation"

I had not considered a video for this but it's a very good idea. When things are actually ready enough to record (so it won't have to be remade right away) I'll see what I can do about it.

 

2 - A few screen shots or illustrations of what it LOOKS like.

Ok. The most difficult bit in that idea is to identiify what has a "look" at all :-) I can only think of the discussion forum which looks very much like exactly that, and a twCard which currently is just a tiddler with some fields. But I'm sure there will be more as things progress. I get your point though; make things concrete and more graspable.

Again, thanks for input.

<:-)

[Mark S.]

I was thinking about the video idea, and going through some of the steps, starting from the assumption that a person will want to add plugins to their existing TW. It appears to me that the wizard is still missing from the latest plugins? I would have posted on twederation, but wasn't sure anyone saw my last post (yesterday). I can think of work-arounds for the missing wizard, but just wanted to know if it was for real or if I was doing something wrong.

Thanks!
Mark

[Mat]

On Wednesday, August 17, 2016 at 6:58:52 PM UTC+2, Mark S. wrote:

I was thinking about the video idea, and going through some of the steps, starting from the assumption that a person will want to add plugins to their existing TW. It appears to me that the wizard is still missing from the latest plugins? I would have posted on twederation, but wasn't sure anyone saw my last post (yesterday). I can think of work-arounds for the missing wizard, but just wanted to know if it was for real or if I was doing something wrong.

(Mark -who is one of the people who has participated with valuable input - refers to a "setup wizard" that already exists. )

Good idea; instructions, whatever the format, both for how to "twederate" your existing TW as well as set up a brand new one. The current wizard only sets up a brand new one. 

I know there will be a big refactoring of the plugins at some point and I'd guess this involves the wizard too.

<:-)

[Mat]

Mark, you know I really appreciate your input - but this particular thread is only about what is needed for a great "front page".

The particular issue you bring up is probably a @Jed matter as he is the creator and expert on those particular components.

<:-)

[Jed Carty]

The way that the wizard works is different than it was at the start. Now it is going to be part of the starter edition but I am not planning on putting it in the normal plugin. The version at ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/TWederation has the wizard, but twederation.tiddlyspot.com never had it.

[Duarte Farrajota Ramos]

Are you talking specifically about aesthetics and visual appearance of the front page?
Are you looking for pretty graphics or an appealing front page?

Maybe what you need are some images, or perhaps a strong logo or infographic for the front page.

I have to admit I am also still a bit in the dark as how all this works and how to use it/set it up, so I guess I am one of he persons who would benefit from more thorough info.

If you could lay down the specifics that you want, and set up a list of requirements or important topics that must be mentioned, then maybe you could hold some sort of contest or competition to design some graphics for the front page, like the one held a while back for the TiddlyWiki community poster.

[Josiah]

Ciao tutti

Maybe a way forward could be a couple of recorded Skype's or Hangouts with on-screen run-throughs on setting it up and using it?

To underline what I said before, when I can SEE how its set-up & works I might find it easier to grasp. The BENEFITS of it, in particular, I'm still very unclear about. I know its important but not exactly clear on the why or how.

Best wishes
Josiah (at the front of the peanut gallery)

[Mat]

[When the Picasso of Tiddly offers to draw, the TWaddler pays attention]

Duarte, it would be fantastic to get your graphical artistry in TWederation! I'm sure there will be much need and it is very desirable to have a consistent style on things. Overall, the aim is to stick with standard TW style but there are no official guidelines for this style so it is probably rather flexible. And of course, there isn't much of images in native TW to begin with (it is mostly limited to icons, I think). More on this below.

The matter of graphics goes beyond the mere front that this thread is about but there's no clear line to what is about the front and what isn't so I'll digress:

 

Are you talking specifically about aesthetics and visual appearance of the front page?
Are you looking for pretty graphics or an appealing front page?

Maybe what you need are some images, or perhaps a strong logo or infographic for the front page.

I'd say the purposes of the site front is to

• convey a feeling what the site and TWederation is about
  
• create desire for people to proceed 
  
• and to make it clear how to proceed. 
  

This is not necessarily about graphics but it definitely can be. Can't really tell exactly how that is manifested in graphics but I do get one idea; a page background gradient going from default TW gray up into a stellar night sky at top (the stars would fit with the logo, see below). IMO it is important that people immediately see that it is a regular TW they're looking at, not some separate software. It is (for real) only about adding a plugin or two and this should be "sensed".

I realize this is vague but I am here trying to frame the context for all visual content for the site. This affects all images.

More concretely, various graphical elements are needed, like

• Avatars - among other things, they are to be used for peoples twCards (i.e a kind of ID card for the wiki, including its crucial wiki URL, but where people can also voluntarily present themselves). @Jed has made a number of doodle avatars and there's of course a zillion avatars on the internet but it would be nice with a consistent set for default avatars until people tweak their card to show something else.
• Icons - the need for Icons is probably mostly covered by the huge plethora of free icon sets found on the web. But actually does anyone know if TW adheres to any particular icon set or style, or is everything home designed by @Jeremy?
  
• ...but I doubt we can find icons for all our special needs. For example, what does a "fetch tiddlers" icon/button look like? These need designing but should ideally align stylistically with the other icons used.
• Logos - For the TWederation itself, i.e the only twederated network that currently exists (anyone will be able to create a new such network), we decided on ⁂  As seen, this is a utf-8 character so it is easy to use even in text. It also has a very distinctive look and a lot of relevant symbolism; it resembles a group of individual (federated!) networks which, at that, form a greater whole. For more, see asterism (...and even this!) This "starry" aspect is what I was thinking of when mentioning the stellar night sky page background.
  BTW, thus far there is only the Discussions application. This is closely associated with the whole purpose of TWedration (i.e "communication") so IMO it kind of shares the ⁂ logo. I think coming applications might benefit from having separate logos. Up to the creators, of course.

For the informative content on the front page and the main twederation site, there is also potential use of

• Infographics - it would probably be of value to make the back-end process for how the wikis communicate more understandable. I made a kind of table for this (see tab Contribute, the Backend table ). It doesn't display well there though and it is incomplete. I have been playing with the idea of a comic strip to illustrated how messages go betwen the wikis, but letting some of the comic squares be reveal buttons so that IF the user is curious he or she can click on it and the comic strip expands with further detailing comic illustrations.
• I made one simple drawing (in the first tab inside the reveal button). It might need remake to harmonize with any eventual "style" that we use.

I can't quite tell what other graphics would be useful at this stage but I'm certain that needs will arise. In a sense you guys are the ones to tell what needs illustrations.

I have to admit I am also still a bit in the dark as how all this works and how to use it/set it up, so I guess I am one of he persons who would benefit from more thorough info.

I think the MOST important thing at this stage it to make people see the the PURPOSE of it all. (Come to think of it, maybe it is as simple as listing existing and future applications for it.) It is a bit like defining the purpose of the internet... I recall a friend who in 1992 said exactly this: "I bought a new PC but decided not to get that internet thing. I surf on the hard drive." Nowadays it's hard to understand how anyone could NOT see the value of the internet.

As for "how this all works [etc]" - I don't fully understand the communication mechanism either but I don't think this is necessary. We / I must make good UIs to hide and automate stuff. Hopefully there is an official invitation soon so anyone can participate in improving the experience. But again, I understand that it is barely understandable at all at this stage. Gotto start somewhere though.

If you could lay down the specifics that you want, and set up a list of requirements or important topics that must be mentioned,

Yes, I was trying to use the draft (mainly the tabs) to reflect what I think are important "areas" to bring up - but this also is partly what I'm asking about; What info IS needed to understand what TWederation is about, and why is justified and how to use it?

 

then maybe you could hold some sort of contest or competition to design some graphics for the front page, like the one held a while back for the TiddlyWiki community poster.

Haha, another contest would be fun but I'm not sure there is need for it at this stage.

Overall, it is striking how quickly it is (at least for me) to pass a judgement on a site based on if it has good or bad graphics so it is an important matter.

...

Having written this overly long reply, I'm thinking I/we should proceed like this;

Using standard TW as a stylistic base, I'll ask Jeremy about the icons - did he make them himself, are they influenced stylistically from somewhere etc and if he recommends any open source icon set.

This will can serve as a "guide" for how to style additional special icons and possibly even avatars and illustrations. This will of course narrow things artistically but both Jed and I are open to great ideas that deviate ;-)  Also, we're just talking about the basic things here; the main site, the key plugins etc. Just like in standard TW, there is unlimited artistic freedom in creating anything outside of this, including use of graphics.

<:-)

[Mat]

On Thursday, August 18, 2016 at 10:01:16 AM UTC+2, Josiah wrote:

Ciao tutti

Maybe a way forward could be a couple of recorded Skype's or Hangouts with on-screen run-throughs on setting it up and using it?

Yeah. There have actually been recordings in hangouts, where mainly Jed has shown it but it has of course been using the implementation as it was at that point in time.

 

To underline what I said before, when I can SEE how its set-up & works I might find it easier to grasp. The BENEFITS of it, in particular, I'm still very unclear about. I know its important but not exactly clear on the why or how.

In deed. As I just replied to Duarte, this is key. I intend to make some small updates to that "front page" today. 

<:-)

[Duarte Nuno de Paiva Farrajota Ramos]

Hahaha "the Picasso of TiddyWiki" is a bit of an overstatement,I think you hold me in higher regard than I deserve. I just do this as a hobby, not professionally nor do I have any formal education in the area.

Anyway I'm a bit busy at the moment, and currently on vacations with limited connectivity and resources, but I may take a look at it some time later if you like.

Let me know once you set up a list of requirements or specific things that you need and I'll be glad to help. Feel free to poke me somewhere and I'll see what I can do.

[Dragon Cotterill]

On Wednesday, 17 August 2016 15:49:58 UTC+1, Mat wrote:

TWederation and TiddlyWiki networks... Oh-that's-not-my-concern-I'm-just-a-regular-TW-user"

If YOU are thinking along those lines, then I'm particularly talking to you here! I will request your help about how to best present explanations for exactly those things, for you:

I've been following along with TWederation, and even took part in some of the demo at the meetup. I fully understand the "How" it works and "What" it does.

What I completely fail to see is the "Why". More specifically I fail to see where such a system would actually provide a working use outside of contrived setups just to prove the techniques.

TWs are not normally static. They grow and are used for many different things. Cross loading the entries into another TW, the entry then becomes a static value. Forever embedded. If the original is updated, the TWederated value still remains at the old value. Good for historical reasons. Bad for interaction.

What I would like to see as a main "selling" point, is an actual real use case which can be utilised by general users. A "discussion" forum is not what I would consider a valid use case. It needs to be something specific to the core of what a TiddlyWiki is.

D.

[Jed Carty]

As far as 'why' goes, because it is an interesting project and I can.

A fully distributed and serverless discussion forum does have merit, if tiddlywiki is the best platform for it may be up for debate, but like I said, I am making it because I can.

And to avoid too much misinformation, there is no reason that what you fetch has to be static, we are working on getting the proper tools for some simple versioning and collaboration. Most of my plans for other applications depend on being able to update previously fetched content.

[Dragon Cotterill]

On Thursday, 18 August 2016 15:38:36 UTC+1, Jed Carty wrote:

As far as 'why' goes, because it is an interesting project and I can.

Yep. Thats certainly a very valid reason for doing this and I applaud that.

But the opening post was about how to present this to the world. Presenting it as it stands (ie just a discussion system) will pretty much generate a "meh, so what?" response from people. Forums are 10-a-penny and everybody has their own favourites and uses. What we need is a "why would I use this system for my application" kind of demonstration.

The core function of TW is to be a Wiki. I think we need a functionality that focuses on that ability. But as to what that functionality would be, I'm at a loss to figure out.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Dragon, Mat,

The core function of TW is to be a Wiki. I think we need a functionality that focuses on that ability. But as to what that functionality would be, I'm at a loss to figure out.

Another application of federation that might be interesting to explore is using it to share fragments of TiddlyWiki bits and pieces for re-use. In fact, a federated version of the plugin library. The goal would be make it easier for users to easily share and find reusable components, and perhaps incorporate features like voting and discussion as a feature, rather than an end in itself.

Best wishes

Jeremy

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[Mat]

Updated:

 http://twed-face.tiddlyspot.com/

The major change is to rename the tab Downloads to be Applications so that the visitor right away can find an answer to "why is this of interest at all".

In that tab I've listed a few imaginable applications. Imagine the "button list" there to instead be a listing of the actual plugins etc, appearing like an App Store or similar.

Can I ask the good people here if those examples at least partly clarifies the "why?"

Would it be cool/useful to do those things? 

If it still is doesn't seem meaningful then please tell. It is a fair opinion and I REALLY REALLY REALLY APPRECIATE hearing it because it means I must clarify it further or people will obviously not use it. I'm certain, however, that it is only a matter of presenting TWederation the right way (and implementing stuff, of course) and people will be as excited about it as some of us already are. It IS a complex idea but it will many solve simple needs.

Perhaps you can even think of other uses of being able to fetch tiddlers? In a way, fetching tiddlers (because that is, at the core, all it is!) can be done manually by drag'n drop. But simplifying and semi-automating the fetching from multiple places allows for things that would otherwise be highly unpractical.

In thinking about what would be useful, consider also that TW can probably be used in "other ways" than how you're currently using it. What if TW fulfilled purposes of other equipment or solutions you do use? What if it was a presentational tool? Or a blogging tool? Or a family calendar? Or a training organizer? Or a medications alterter for your old granny? Or a collective party planner? Or it was used at your work for the christmas party planning? or... Now, might it be of value to connect several wikis for this? You can draw in a tiddler. It can display any image on the web. It can display a spreadsheet. Or a video. It can export single tiddlers or a mini webpage.... I'm saying these things only to trigger thoughts outside of your normal use for TW because the TWederation applications are outside of your normal TW use,. Otherwise one risks looking at what one has and thinking "well, it can already do 100% of what I'm using it for". Just like the toaster. Or the vacuum cleaner.

NOW, this thread is about that front site - how it should be designed so to communicate the what/why/how of TWederation, so please don't let my brain splatter distract from this ;-)

<:-)

[Jed Carty]

As far as applications for federated wikis, I are some things I would like to eventually make (you know, when I am finished with my 405682114523 other projects...).

A system for distribution and creation of self-directed learning tools. I think that since tiddlywiki is self contained and very flexible it would be a good platform for a distributed learning system.

I don't know what you would call it, but a system for games like the turn based play by email things I played a bit of when I was in college. Then we had to have someone run the whole thing but we could set up wikis that pull in all the actions from other wikis and updates everything without anyone having to be in charge. This may be more of an experiment I want to do than something other people will care about.

I have used tiddlywiki to automatically generate PHP for an old job I had and I would like to make some tools that would let you create plugins that generate arduino code and based on user input in a wiki. If this works there isn't any reason it would have to be only arduino code, but I am saying arduino specifically because it has a large active community interested in open source projects. The idea would be that you have a wiki with the base (you can program arduino microcontrollers from a browser. We live in the future.) and you could browse and fetch code as well as configuration tools and documentation for what you want to make in your wiki.

[Danielo Rodríguez]

I'm a regular TW user, this is not for me :-)

I have few questions:

What is the required infrastructure? Does the federated wikis need a backend? CORS?

What avoids fetching all the tiddlers from a federated wikis instead of just the public ones?

Does it integrate with a common wiki or I need a dedicated one?

Regards

[Jed Carty]

Answers in order:

All you need is somewhere you can host the html file, dropbox or any other file server works (or tiddlyspot, or your own hosting space). You don't need to think about CORS or back-end/server-side things.

The simple answer is that tiddlers are fetched by filter, so you get what you ask for using a filter.

At the moment it is in development, but it can in theory be added to any wiki. If you are going to play with it you should just use the edition at ooktech.com/jed/Examplewikis/TWederation for now because there are a bunch of things that can break if you try to add it to an existing wiki.

[Duarte Farrajota Ramos]

Well then back to the matter at hand. I'd say that, as an end user and for regular everyday users, the most important for your front page presentation would be, by this specific order:

What is it? > Possible Applications > How it Works > Get started

It should all be worded simply and very clearly, no ambiguous meanings, no complicated formatting, minimal visual noise, and no technical info until needed.

• What is it?
• Basic description of what it is worded simply worded, no fluff or complicated technical info, something along the lines of:
• A way for your regular browser based TiddlyWiki file to fetch remote content from other TiddlyWikis, stored locally, or on the web.
• (Very clearly and straight to the point,in a end user point of view, no technical info or details about it works or how to install)
  
• Possible applications
• Distributed Discussion Forums
• RSS-like news feeds
• Distributed Comments System
• Collaborative documentation
• Plugins library with automatic update system
• Totally flexible, open ended and customizable
• Can be used for any other application that benefits from collaboration, third party content, or remotely fetched data
• (No technical info about editions or how it all works, maybe each use with link to a live working example)
  
• How it works
• (?) Install a plugin in your regular wiki
• Configure it to fetch content from other wiki (by URL, locally, ?)
• Filter desired content by filters
• How does announcing new reachable content works
• No infrastructures (servers, or backend) required
• Getting started
• Actual downloads and edition information
• Steps to proceed with installation
• Possibly tutorial video mentioned above goes here

Not sure if my description is totally accurate from a technical point of view, as I said before my understanding is still limited, but I expect your valuable input and technical inside knowledge to correct me where I'm wrong. Bottom line is the where each type of info belongs.

All this could then be dotted with some simple infographics replacing text here and there where needed, to better present the data in a more friendly or graphical way.

Maybe in a lightweight TiddlyWiki friendly vector format like SVG

[Mat]

Updated

@Duarte, great feedback and I've incorporated much of it. Of course, the front should not only be for to get people started with TWederation but should also directly display the other resources like the twCards List etc.

...

I had to switch to vertical tabs or they'd "stack" on smaller screens or from just having the sidebar open.

Further feedback and ideas on how to make it the best possible front face for TWederation is welcome.

<:-)

[Josiah]

Ciao Jed & Mat

> "A system for distribution and creation of self-directed learning tools."

As I said before anything procedural showing it working & being setup.

Through this discussion its got clearer to me that my HURDLE with it is to understand HOW to set it up. Perhaps a video screen capture doing that would be enough to SEE what to do and to SEE what it IS. My problem with verbal explanations is they are twice removed. Visual presentations of the thing in USE are much closer to what I can grasp.

As a general comment the RICHNESS of what you describe may be itself a slight barrier to entry. Its difficult for me to find the starting POINT (in both senses of the word).

Best wishes
Josiah

[Danielo Rodríguez]

I have to say that I followed the whole thing to be very confusing, and that is very discouraging especially from an experienced TW user like me.

The first thing I found confusing is the wizard. The getting started guide claims that all you need to do is to complete the wizard and you will end with a running federated wiki. I have completed the wizard, and I feel that I don't have anything running, apart from a request sent to the administrator from a google form. Seems that I have to setup a wiki FIRST (for example on tiddlyspot) and then complete the wizard. More information and clearness on that would be cool.

I also find confusing the UI. I took a look at the main federated wiki and all that I can see is one main thread. If I try to fetch new threads (or something like that) I just end with a list of links that I don't understand where they come from and what they mean. As Josiah said, a visual guide would be very helpful

Regards

[Mat]

Josiah and Danielo

The main site is NOT officially launched yet because Jed is intending to do a major refactoring of the plugins etc.

Yes, there is much clarification needed to make people understand what TWederation is all about and to install it. But this is exactly why I started this thread; to ensure that we get a front page that IS clarifying. Specific phrasing/illustrations/videos on how to install stuff is another part of the clarification and we'll get to that too. Gotto start somewhere though. I like a top-down approach.

I should probably remove the link to the wizard from that front page draft. That said; a few have succeeded in installing it and are participating already. I think the existing instructions were more valid at an earlier stage. But @Danielo - I will contact you privately in the weekend to help you get in. It would be very valuable to have you on board and I know your brain is already sparkling with ideas ;-)

The main site - which is not what this thread is about and which I don't even want to link to because it is not quite official - only has a discussion forum, a bit like the google forum. This is mostly because we so far only have that particular application. And we have been using it to communicate about the development itself. Again, I'm running this thread to make a completely new face for that site.

...

@Josiah - wrote

As a general comment the RICHNESS of what you describe may be itself a slight barrier to entry.

Which specific comment are you referring to?

<:-)

[Josiah]

Ciao Mat & Jed

> @Josiah - wrote

 >> As a general comment the RICHNESS of what you describe may be itself a slight barrier to entry.

 > Which specific comment are you referring to?

Its a good question. But I am not sure I can answer it directly. I mean, I could, but I don't think that would capture my meaning. What I can do is comment in a roundabout way.

What strikes me is that TWederation is a great MECHANISM that is attempting, and looks like its a achieved, a way not to have server dominated communications. Essentially a kind of down-to-earth networking system?

My difficulty is, I think, I'm not so clear about what is the MECHANISM & what is(are) the PURPOSE(S).

You and Jed list many ways it could be used. But *I'm* still unclear on what the MAIN purpose(s) is(are). What does it ADD? Why is it BETTER than GoogleGroups? WHAT would a normal user GAIN?

Stuff like that.

Its great that you working on all this and concerned. I don't mean to be negative. For a user like me I still feel I need to hold back a bit longer so I'm a bit clearer what I might use it FOR.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Mat]

Thanks for input again Josiah. You're not at all coming across as negative, you're rightfully wondering of what use it will be. I believe this will become clearer as we proceed. Thanks to your and others input I'm understanding how abstract it all still is. But considering how even I must still ask the Jedi very fundamental questions every now and then, I can definitely understand how it takes a while before people "see the light".

Keep the font-page ideas coming!

<:-)

[Duarte Farrajota Ramos]

This seems to be going in the right direction, it has already improved considerably.

Most of the problems I see probably stem from the simple fact that all of this "looks non standard" visually speaking, as it currently stands. Not in a negative way, it's just that if a forum "looks" remotely like a regular forum UI to a regular user, there's less explanation that needs to be done, or if an encyclopedia as the appearance of one, the user will feel right at home.

TWCards probably needs some explanation of what they are. I am guessing they are some sort of avatar, or perhaps some pre-made tiddlers conforming to some standardized pre-defined set of standard fields?
TiddlyPedia also probably needs some better explaining of what it is. I am guessing a breed between a Wikipedia and some sort of forum.
I am guessing "Dictionary" could be part of Tiddlypedia?

Other than that it seems to be just a mater of wording to make it seem less cryptic and daunting to newcomers and end users.

[Mat]

Updated - IMO the overall structure is probably decent enough now and I will turn focus to more of the textual content and explicit clarifications. Note that actual plugins are not what I have been concerned with in any way. The twed-face site is NOT a real site, and the site it aims to serve is NOT officially launched, including any plugins.

Duarte Farrajota Ramos wrote:

Most of the problems I see probably stem from the simple fact that all of this "looks non standard" visually speaking, as it currently stands. Not in a negative way, it's just that if [...it, as a whole, would resemble some thing that people are familiar with then it wouldn't need so much explanation]...

(Is my interpretation of your statement above correct?)

Yes, this is true. A cool thing with TW though is that tiddler philosophy makes it very easy to present many very different things in one place. So, one tiddler has a "forum", other has an "app store", a third has a "wizard" etc etc. If one is familiar with TW then I think this is not a problem and IMO TWederation currently requires familiarity with TW (...or does it? In a way, TW requires familiarity with TW.) 

For the front-page in question I'm framing all the different "features" in one tiddler by using tabs. But each tab content by itself is not that "non standard" - or? (Note this latest update also cleaned up a bit). I'm not sure there are many standards to rely on for respective tab content but any ideas are welcome.

<:-)

[Duarte Farrajota Ramos]

(Is my interpretation of your statement above correct?)

Yes it is, that is what I meant. As you said, I don't think it i a problem in itself. Either the user gets used to, or TiddlyWiki is flexible enough to eventually be bent into looking however one likes. When the time comes and twederation matures i'm sure some UI work will eventually be done and those problems will be gone one way or another.

The tabs seem a lot cleaner now.

[Jan]

Hi Mat,
I very much like your attempt to have a platform to exchange tiddler, as far as i understand this is what Twederation is about.
When I thought about that, I always had in mind a concept that would look a like Trello.com.
(In my memory trello was a little cleaner than the actual Trello-demonstration)
 A row of parallel storyrivers with the function to drag into your TW to import or onto others to give informations or assign tasks. Perhaps it could be a mechanism to arrange tiddlers in the storyriver and then press a button to saveand upload this story to be displayed as actual the stack on a projectboard.

I don´t know wheter this meets your concept, but i think this would be a tremendous think to have.
I am keen to know how your Twederation will look like.

Yours Jan

Am 17.08.2016 um 16:49 schrieb Mat:

TWederation and TiddlyWiki networks... Oh-that's-not-my-concern-I'm-just-a-regular-TW-user"

If YOU are thinking along those lines, then I'm particularly talking to you here! I will request your help about how to best present explanations for exactly those things, for you:

...

The shaping of the TWederation and "TiddlyWiki networks" is choppily progressing. It works(!) and there is even a real Discussions application in use - and there is a certain JEDi master to thank for it, along with input from a few of us mortals. It's not quite official yet so I won't link to it here though.

Now, we need a "front face" for the world (i.e for you!) that presents/explains what (the heck) TWederation is and why and how etc - !?

So I've made a draft here, for an entry point to everything concerning TWederation, but I ask YOU; What needs to be covered in such an entry point? What is needed to make it the obvious GO-TO site when someone is curious about "connecting wikis"?

The concern at this stage is more about main ideas, structure and general topics rather than specific details.

Note that the actual TWederation site needs some more work first.before it is officially announced.... and then hopefully with the pretty front face on it.

<:-)

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[Mat]

On Tuesday, August 23, 2016 at 9:13:22 PM UTC+2, Jan wrote:

Hi Mat,
I very much like your attempt to have a platform to exchange tiddler, as far as i understand this is what Twederation is about.

"A platform to exchange tiddlers" - yes, I think that is a fair summary.

 

When I thought about that, I always had in mind a concept that would look a like Trello.com.
(In my memory trello was a little cleaner than the actual Trello-demonstration)
 A row of parallel storyrivers with the function to drag into your TW to import or onto others to give informations or assign tasks. Perhaps it could be a mechanism to arrange tiddlers in the storyriver and then press a button to saveand upload this story to be displayed as actual the stack on a projectboard.

My only experience wiht Trello was actually shortly ago as part of the TiddlyWiki meetup. Never used it before.

Anyway, I definitely think a trello board edition is doable with twederation. My hope is that we (..ok, Jed) will refactor the plugins so we have a solid clean cut plugin to "twederate a wiki". Then people can start building any application on top of that. A trello boards sounds like a typical thing suitable as an edition. 

 

I don´t know wheter this meets your concept, but i think this would be a tremendous think to have.
I am keen to know how your Twederation will look like.

As you say, TWederation or TiddlyWiki networks is just the mechanisms behind it to exchange tiddlers. It doesn't really "look" any particular way. The interesting stuff will be the applications you create on top of it ;-)

<:-)

[Jan]

Wow,
I am really looking forward to this.
Do you have a roadmap for the Twederation-Project?
Will Twederation be one central Exchange or a sort of Edition to create decentralized Platforms?
Another thing I would love to have for TW would be a possibility communicate between an offline private TW and a public one which could be viewed (and downloaded) Tiddler by Tiddler?

Yours Jan

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[Mat]

On Tuesday, August 23, 2016 at 11:50:10 PM UTC+2, Jan wrote:

Wow,
I am really looking forward to this.
Do you have a roadmap for the Twederation-Project?

No. The "core player" in this is Jed/inmysocks. He has made the core plugins and the current only application, i.e the Discussions plugin, as well as the wizard to set up a twederated wiki. None of which is officially released yet. I have mostly made tweaks and additions to his stuff. I hope the core will soon be taken to a point where it has a solid interface (API?) so that it is easy to build on it, but this is Jed-stuff so he of course decides when he has time for it. I have plans to also make documentation on the stuff easy to add, so to make building applications easy for anyone.

 

Will Twederation be one central Exchange or a sort of Edition to create decentralized Platforms?

Well, first of all we're having internal debate of what the term "TWedration" should mean. It might come to refer only tho a specific website, the "main" wiki in the first TiddlyWiki network we are now creating. So, yes, that particular site is a kind of "central". But in reality, there is no central because the idea is a federated network. Anyone can start a network - it is merely a matter of having others follow your wiki, that makes a network. I guess a TW set up with the core plugins can be called an edition.

 

Another thing I would love to have for TW would be a possibility communicate between an offline private TW and a public one which could be viewed (and downloaded) Tiddler by Tiddler?

Jed has briefly mentioned private networks... which if I understand right means networks that no one can look into without some invitation. To "communicate betwwn an offline private TW and a public one" doesn't quite make sense because if it's offline then it's offline. However you can, already now, have a TW that only fetches during the time it takes to fetch from the public one. You dont have to keep your TW online permanently. But then of course nobody can fetch from you.

The current implementation of TWederation is based on full TW-files. Even when you fetch single tiddlers, you're actually downloading the full other wiki temporarily into your own wiki (in a hidden iframe) and then plucking what you want from that downloaded copy, thanks to some js methods. So it is not "Tiddler-by-Tiddler".

That said, el grande Danielo is currently doing loco stuff with NoteSelf. Who knows where that will go. I wrote a question just the other day if it would be possible to somehow use this technology in combinnation with TWederation ideas. This is way beyond my level though. 

<:-)