[TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Ben H.]

What is the bare-minimum set of modules, plugins, and tiddlers you would need to render a tiddle containing the text "Hello World" from a .tid file?

[Jed Carty]

The bare minimum would be to just download the empty.html, open it in a browser and edit a tiddler. If you mean using node for it than I am not sure, someone else can hopefully tell you more about that one.

[Ben H.]

Yeah, I mean with Node. The empty one is far from empty; it has a story river and settings Tiddles and all sorts of stuff. I want to start with the absolute bare minimum, and add in all the stuff in the empty version only as needed.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Ben

I can reply more fully tomorrow, but have a look at:

http://tiddlywiki.com/#Generating%20Static%20Sites%20with%20TiddlyWiki

You'll see example templates that you can clone and adapt to your own purposes.

Best wishes

Jeremy

—
jeremy...@gmail.com

On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 10:40 PM, Ben H. <moog...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, I mean with Node. The empty one is far from empty; it has a story river and settings Tiddles and all sorts of stuff. I want to start with the absolute bare minimum, and add in all the stuff in the empty version only as needed.

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[Ben H.]

I'm not trying to create a static page, I'm trying to start from a totally blank canvas.

The issue I have is the core contains a lot more than just a "library" of tiddles you can use to build an application; it also contains an actual application, the default tiddlywiki, and doesn't make it obvious where one ends and the other begins. There are 1140 tiddlers in there, the majority of which define the ui and functionality of the default app. That's great if you want to tweak the default app (which is pretty cool and all), but a nightmare if you want to actually use TW as an application framework, not just create a minor derivation of the default app.

[PMario]

Hi Ben,
I don't know your "web background" and it seems you are new to TW. I try to start with high level info, but I'll go "geeky deep" very fast. So I hope you can digest it ;)

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 3:06:16 AM UTC+2, Ben H. wrote:

I'm not trying to create a static page, I'm trying to start from a totally blank canvas.

If you really want to go that way, you will need to dive very very ... very deep into the TW core.

In TW everything is a tiddler. Even the core itself are tiddlers, that can be overwritten and modified one by one.
See all the *.js tiddlers. This makes TW so extremely flexible.
 

The issue I have is the core contains a lot more than just a "library" of tiddles you can use to build an application; it also contains an actual application, the default tiddlywiki, and doesn't make it obvious where one ends and the other begins.

That's right.
 

There are 1140 tiddlers in there, the majority of which define the ui and functionality of the default app.

The actual v5.1.9 empty.html has 1218 shadow tiddlers. ... Which you name "the default app". Most of the time we name it "vanilla TiddlyWiki" or empty TW or empty.html

As I mentioned and you found out in TW everything is a tiddler.

If you open the
 - $:/ControlPanel and click the "Number of shadow tiddlers:" it will open the
 - $:/AdvancedSearch shadow tiddler with the filter: [all[shadows]sort[title]]

It shows you the list of all 1218 shadow tiddlers.

The above 2 tiddlers are part of vanilla TW, So basically you could remove them, which results in loosing the "advanced search" functionality and the TW Control Panel. .. This is true for every other TW functionality.

----------

If you go to $:/AdvancedSearch tiddler and you search for the term AdvancedSearch with the "shadow" tab selected you'll get the following results:

$:/AdvancedSearch

$:/core/ui/Buttons/advanced-search

$:/core/ui/ControlPanel/Basics

$:/core/ui/SideBarLists

All those tiddlers are part of the advanced search functionality or call the button. If you open those tiddlers, you'll see, how vanilla TW builds the Advanced Search functionality. ... So it depends on you, if your "TW app framework" should contain this functionality or not. .. Be aware, that in the content there may be transclusions and <$:/list...>s, that may or may not be removable too.

The existing TW UI is mainly built with <$:/list...> widget functionality to make it more dynamic. ... The very first versions of the PageTemplate used hard coded elements for most of the UI sections. ... So looking at the alpha and bata versions, the templates may be much simpler, but less powerful. ... eg: no multi language support. no dynamic page elements activated by tags ... and so on.

That's great if you want to tweak the default app (which is pretty cool and all), but a nightmare if you want to actually use TW as an application framework, not just create a minor derivation of the default app.

IMO You can basically strip everything. Just keep:

 - all *.js tiddlers, since they provide the executable core.
 - $:/core/ui/PageTemplate

So imo the minimum Page template is:

Hello World

which will be completely useless because it removes the whole "vanilla TW" functionality. .... BUT imo it's the bare minimum core. ...

I didn't test it, but I definitely will create a stripped down version, since I'm interested, if a TW like this will start and display "Hello World" :) ... This version will be completely useless, so don't expect it, to be published.

If you start studying the content starting from $:/core/ui/PageTemplate and if you understand every single bit of its content, you can work your way up, to understand the whole TiddlyWiki UI functionality.

The TWs UI is built with widgets, which are the basic building blocks of functionality in TiddlyWiki. If you analyse the PageTemplate, and consult the tiddlywiki.com homepage, which describes every widget in detail, you can find and see every piece that builds "vanilla TW". ....

Low Level Warning!
This journey is non trivial (and sometimes frustrating), since the existing TW UI is not only an application, it is also Jeremy's philosophy, how tiddlers should be presented. At least one version of it. So your philosophy how your application should look like may be completely different. So as I understand your post. You want to start from scratch. If you really want to do this, some hints, where I would start are following. ..

eg:  If you "advanced search" for:  PageTemplate you'll get the following results:

$:/core/modules/startup/render.js    <- look at this one: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/core/modules/startup/startup.js

$:/core/templates/static.template.html

$:/core/ui/PageTemplate              <- start here

$:/core/ui/PageTemplate/alerts

$:/core/ui/PageTemplate/pagecontrols

$:/core/ui/PageTemplate/pluginreloadwarning

$:/core/ui/PageTemplate/sidebar

$:/core/ui/PageTemplate/story

$:/core/ui/PageTemplate/topleftbar

$:/core/ui/PageTemplate/toprightbar

$:/tags/PageTemplate

You can see the basic structure of the TW UI here. So if you understand, how Jeremy built TW UI, you will be able to build your own UI.

TW basically has:

 - page controls
 - a sidebar
 - the tiddler "story river" ... which is part of the philosophy.
 - top left/right menu bars, that are always visible
 - some plugin handling and alert stuff.

Your own PageTemplate may be completely different but it needs to work with the same widgets.

------------
More details:

You can see, that there are some elements hard coded in the render.js file. The following list may be incomplete!:

// Default story and history lists
var PAGE_TITLE_TITLE = "$:/core/wiki/title";
var PAGE_STYLESHEET_TITLE = "$:/core/ui/PageStylesheet";
var PAGE_TEMPLATE_TITLE = "$:/core/ui/PageTemplate";

// Time (in ms) that we defer refreshing changes to draft tiddlers
var DRAFT_TIDDLER_TIMEOUT_TITLE = "$:/config/Drafts/TypingTimeout";

So you need to have a closer look at render.js, to find those tiddlers, that imo are absolutely necessary.

--------------

If you made it so far, I'm pretty sure, that all of this looks pretty complicated, if you are new to TW tweaking. ... But it actually isn't. It's just a lot of work, that was invested to create the TW UI and there's not enough documentation, that describes, how the "reference implementation" aka vanilla TiddlyWiki is built in detail.

So if someone would sit down and describe how the content of every single core tiddler (1218) works, we would have the "low level doc" for the actual TW UI and its "may be" reusable blocks. .. BUT ...

Since we, the TiddlyWiki Community, are not able to fund Erics "Inside TidddlyWiki" documentation, which is a "TiddlyWiki User Manual", I doubt we will be able to fund the low level docs, that would be needed to create: "TiddlyWik the App Framework" documentation. So for the time being, this knowledge will be beautifully hidden in some heads, but not written down in a consumable way.

have fun!
mario

[Mat]

@pmario 

-I'm not fully qualified to give judgement - but from my limited perspective; What an absolutely wonderful writeup!!!! I propose it is somehow incorporated into tw.com.

Regarding:

 

So if someone would sit down and describe how the content of every single core tiddler (1218) works, we would have the "low level doc" for the actual TW UI and its "may be" reusable blocks. .. BUT ...

Since we, the TiddlyWiki Community, are not able to fund Erics "Inside TidddlyWiki" documentation, which is a "TiddlyWiki User Manual", I doubt we will be able to fund the low level docs, that would be needed to create: "TiddlyWik the App Framework" documentation. So for the time being, this knowledge will be beautifully hidden in some heads, but not written down in a consumable way. 

Ironically, we're working with the very type of tool invented for exactly this problem: A wiki. IMO it is not feasible for "someone" to document what you describe but rather it is a group effort (like Wikipedia) - but we would need the infrastructure for it. I expect this to much fall in place when the TWederation gets going, but a simple "solution" might be the "Public" component of my TiddlerSidebar addon and the associated CommunityComments. This would let you get immediate documentation on the tiddler you're interested in. (I happen to know some things are in the doing that you don't expect so just maybe this will take a big step in due time. Can't say more right now.)

<:-)

[Danielo Rodríguez]

A modular tiddlywiky is something I asked about more than once(along a minified one) . To be honest, tiddlywiky is already modular, but there is no easy way to select "what do you need". The main problem is that tiddlywiky was not designed as a framework but an application. It would be cool to have the "core" as something similar to a library, or at least be able to select wich widgets and shadow tiddlers you would need.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Ben,

The easiest way to work to get the most basic "Hello World" version of TW running under Node.js is with a single tiddler to replace the default page template with whatever you want:

title: $:/core/ui/PageTemplate

Hello World

Producing a version of the $:/core plugin with fewer tiddlers isn't quite so straightforward but entirely possible should anyone want to experiment (I think we discussed it before).

Best wishes

Jeremy

On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Danielo Rodríguez <rdan...@gmail.com> wrote:

A modular tiddlywiky is something I asked about more than once(along a minified one) . To be honest, tiddlywiky is already modular, but there is no easy way to select "what do you need". The main problem is that tiddlywiky was not designed as a framework but an application. It would be cool to have the "core" as something similar to a library, or at least be able to select wich widgets and shadow tiddlers you would need.

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[Danielo Rodríguez]

Mat is absolutely right here. Building such documentation is not one man task. We need a wiki! But an actual wiki, not github pull requests that Jeremy have to join which will eventually be converted into part of a wiki.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mat, Mario

-I'm not fully qualified to give judgement - but from my limited perspective; What an absolutely wonderful writeup!!!! I propose it is somehow incorporated into tw.com.

Perhaps you could work together? Mat, you might be the perfect person to expand Mario's outline into an article. Perhaps stitch it with the background stuff I wrote to create an article called "How does TiddlyWiki work?" and then publish it on Medium and on tw.com? (Actually, it should probably be called "I looked inside the TiddlyWiki core and you'll never believe what I found").

The trouble is that discussions of improving the documentation at tiddlywiki.com generally flounder into a technical discussion of the means by which those updates could be made, and no writing takes place. Perhaps it's better just to write out a handful of key background questions that can trigger an interesting essay. Collaborate on it as a stream of text on Google docs if you want.

Then we can worry about incorporating the essay into tw.com afterwards; the text-slicer tool I'm working on might useful if we got to that stage.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

 

Regarding:

 

So if someone would sit down and describe how the content of every single core tiddler (1218) works, we would have the "low level doc" for the actual TW UI and its "may be" reusable blocks. .. BUT ...

Since we, the TiddlyWiki Community, are not able to fund Erics "Inside TidddlyWiki" documentation, which is a "TiddlyWiki User Manual", I doubt we will be able to fund the low level docs, that would be needed to create: "TiddlyWik the App Framework" documentation. So for the time being, this knowledge will be beautifully hidden in some heads, but not written down in a consumable way. 

Ironically, we're working with the very type of tool invented for exactly this problem: A wiki. IMO it is not feasible for "someone" to document what you describe but rather it is a group effort (like Wikipedia) - but we would need the infrastructure for it. I expect this to much fall in place when the TWederation gets going, but a simple "solution" might be the "Public" component of my TiddlerSidebar addon and the associated CommunityComments. This would let you get immediate documentation on the tiddler you're interested in. (I happen to know some things are in the doing that you don't expect so just maybe this will take a big step in due time. Can't say more right now.)

<:-)

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[Mat]

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 2:23:52 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Perhaps you could work together? Mat, you might be the perfect person to expand Mario's outline into an article.

OMG... surely Jeremy is not referring to ME!? There is just so much in the question and answer that is lightyears beyond my level. This is what I meant when I said "I'm not qualified to..". What I AM qualified for is to study Marios article and ask the "stupid guy questions" until answers from you guys have evolved into something that people on my level can grasp. However, I'm not sure there is much point in this because people who need the explanation at my level are probably not qualified to do anything useful with it anyway. The context with bare-bone TWs is too technical to begin with. It would be like a detailed explanation of a car for a 10 year old; "This is called a cog wheel..." - it would be a very long explanation and the kid can't even use it anyway.

Regardless, even if I change my view on this (I'm currently in shock) it would still have to wait until I have more time for it as it would mean involving others to answer my questions and then I'd better get a finished product in the end or people would probably get upset for answering. 

...but, meta-ironically, what CAN be done... just possibly already now... is a wiki where both the questions and the answers are posted so that the document gradually grew into the documentation you ask for Jeremy. Even a non-conclusive document would be more meaningful than nothing. I'm hijacking Ben's thread here, but what IS currently the best solution for this? A tiddlyspot with shared passwords? A tiddlyspace including subspaces? The idea is something that is public.

If it reached a level where Jeremy feels it is decent enough to include on tw.com then great... until then it could perhaps be a tiddler on tw.com that merely links to the discussion. (even iframe it?). 

(I think I passed all stages of a trauma there; shock, confusion, denial, acceptance)

<:-)

[Ben H.]

As far as documentation goes, just create a Github repository containing a tiddlywiki that runs on node. That way anyone can edit the .tid files (either through the wiki itself or with a text editor), and simply submit a pull request with their changes. Periodically compile and upload that doc to the web.

I'll respond to the rest shortly.

[Matabele]

Hi

This forum acts as a FAQ of a sort for TW (I found whatever I needed by searching here.) A 'best of' precise of this forum in the form of a Wiki should prove useful. Perhaps, this could be constructed by asking the member who asked each question to summarise the best answer to their question in a Wiki?

regards

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 2:23:52 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi Ben,

Ironically, that's exactly the system we do have. On tiddlywiki.com you'll see that editing any tiddler displays a banner that says "Can you help us improve this documentation? Find out how to edit this tiddler on GitHub"  - the fact remains that writing documentation is difficult and boring, however necessary, and we need to find a funner way to do it.

I agree with Mat(thais) that a wiki is the way to go and I agree with Mat(abele) that we should seed it with the best posts from here.

The great taboo question is - does the wiki need to be a tiddlywiki? Of course, it's super-cute that we can use tiddlywiki.com as it's own docs but if we want a secure multi-user wiki, we're much better off using something like mediawiki, surely?

Regards,

Richard

[Ben H.]

I am new to tiddlywiki, and have precious little experience with web development in general. My perspective is that of someone looking for software with certain functionality that I can use to build some apps I've been thinking about for a long time.

I've long been frustrated trying to find a task management program that worked exactly how I wanted it to. About 8-9 months ago I was sketching out ideas for what the ideal software might be, and came up with the idea of having these "boxes" that could hold any type of information, and which could be connected together however I saw fit, into a sort of node graph. Thinking about structuring information as a tree or node graph makes a great deal of sense in the way my mind works, so naturally I began thinking about how the UI could be described in terms of these graph nodes, and nodes could be reused in many places. I've been trying to find some sort of framework ever since that would allow me to create a single type of information flexible enough to hold all the different parts of a program, from the UI and logic to the users own data. I've thought about how such a system might be used to create anything from an email client to text editor. In fact, the only application I hadn't thought about was using such a system to create a wiki!

I've looked at React, Reagent, Meteor, Angular, Om, re-frame, and dozens of other libraries and frameworks. I liked a lot of the ideas behind many of those, but none of them are close enough to what I envisioned to allow me to adapt it to create something like what I envisioned.

I came across TW several weeks ago, and was very excited to discover that Tiddles are almost EXACTLY what I was looking for! The functionality of Tiddles, being able to link, search, transclude, and hold any arbitrary type of data, include metadata via fields, this is very nearly the precise functionality I wanted from my small unit of information.

Which is why I referred to TW Vanilla as a "default app": from my perspective, the Tiddles and the wiki are two distinct things. The wiki is simply one of the cool things that can be built from Tiddlers. Earlier this week I was even sketching ideas for how one might use Tiddlers to build an application with electron, by having each UI panel as a separate $tw instance, and keeping their tiddle stores in sync.

Which is what brings me back to my original question, which might be better phrased as "How do I separate the Tiddles from the Wiki?"

[Evolena]

Maybe the right question is not "How do I separate the Tiddlers from the Wiki?" (tiddlers, not tiddles :) )but "How do I modify the UI to fit my needs"?

You can look at Jed's Stuff (http://ooktech.com/jed/externalbrain/#Dashboard) for example. It doesn't look like a wiki anymore, it's more of a blog. However, it still has the whole core component, it's only a lot of UI personnalization (and some plugins added or developped).

[Mat]

Your writing reminds me of some things I've read from Chris Dent (CC) who was the lead developer for TiddlySpace and is (was?) very involved in TiddlyWeb and who now hosts Tank. 

<:-)

[Ben H.]

On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 2:34:58 PM UTC-7, Evolena wrote:

Maybe the right question is not "How do I separate the Tiddlers from the Wiki?" (tiddlers, not tiddles :) )but "How do I modify the UI to fit my needs"?

No, I definitely want to go beyond tweaking TW-Vanilla. This here (if you can decipher my handwriting) is a page of notes I wrote out last night about how tiddlers could be used to build an app with electron:

A single panel could be a simple properties pane, or it could be a full-blown text editor, depending on what tiddlers you include. In either case, it doesn't make much sense to start out with a full-blown wiki and trying to mold it into something completely different.

Mario, definitely put your experimental results in a repository or something. I'll make some clumsy attempts to monkey with it as well.

[Ben H.]

The image didn't embed properly. Lemme try again:

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi Ben,

Electron seems to just be a wrapper for packaging web apps to run as if they were native - it doesn't call the native gui directly to create windows like eg; mac gap (https://github.com/MacGapProject) but it does let you create native menus and popups. Should be fine - have you tried turning a TW into a desktop app with it? Did it work?

I don't really understand why you want to have separate Tiddlywiki's all showing up at the same time - how will the data in them be different? There's also no mechanism for passing messages between tiddlywikis in the way that you're imagining to keep them in sync, but it is quite possible to create a window like the one you're imagining where different panels show different views - onto the data within one tiddlywiki. 

" it doesn't make much sense to start out with a full-blown wiki and trying to mold it into something completely different."

Except that it does if you want to use tiddlyWIKI to make it with - whilst it's true that you can completely rewrite the UI for Tw as explained above, you would be most rash to throw any of the tiddlers away unless you're sure you know what it does. It's not really clear what you see the value of Tw as being to you - what bit of your app do you want it to do? Store the tiddlers? It stores them in a wiki-store, so you're already dealing with a wiki, essentially. Which bit is it that you think is wasteful? The editor? The filter functions? The save mechanism? You could take any of these pieces out but in my opinion it would be crazy to start doing that unless you really understand how tiddlywiki works in great detail. It's not very wasteful in general terms to leave everything in there, even if you don't use it all.

Maybe if you describe in more detail what you actually want to achieve we could tell you how feasible it is to do it by simply modding an existing edition? Have you seen TiddlyMap (http://tiddlymap.org/) for example?

Regards,

Richard

[Jed Carty]

If you want to start with as few components as you can and build up I think it will be significantly more work than starting with an empty wiki and modifying it. It is in fact designed with exactly that purpose in mind. One of the first things I did to learn tiddlywiki was make a simple interactive fiction engine using it, so it is a very flexible tool. That was a few versions ago and some features have been added that make that sort of thing even easier.

But, if you do want to rebuild tiddlywiki instead using it the way people have suggested, I think it would be an interesting project and if you share your progress I would like to see how you do things.

[PMario]

On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 11:19:43 PM UTC+2, Ben H. wrote:

I am new to tiddlywiki, and have precious little experience with web development in general.

hmm, The existing TW UI is all about plain HTML structure (with a twist) and CSS. ...

As I wrote already. The existing TW UI is an application and a vision / philosophy. TW knows about themes and views. So everything you envision is already there. ... You just don't know, how to use it ... yet ;)

My perspective is that of someone looking for software with certain functionality that I can use to build some apps I've been thinking about for a long time.

I think you found it.
 

I've looked at React, Reagent, Meteor, Angular, Om, re-frame, and dozens of other libraries and frameworks. I liked a lot of the ideas behind many of those, but none of them are close enough to what I envisioned to allow me to adapt it to create something like what I envisioned.

Yes, they are all interesting. But none of them is like TW. ..

TW is designed to be used as a self contained, self replicating, single file Wiki. It can live without a server side backend.

Most of the frameworks you describe have the server side in mind. Even if they don't tell you. Because the server software or the "build process" is part of the business model. It's like "Free to Play" for games. .. The basic functions are free, like in free beer but if you want to do real work, you'll need to enter the shop, in some way or the other.

I came across TW several weeks ago, and was very excited to discover that Tiddles are almost EXACTLY what I was looking for! The functionality of Tiddles, being able to link, search, transclude, and hold any arbitrary type of data, include metadata via fields, this is very nearly the precise functionality I wanted from my small unit of information.

Reading your vision and your next post, I think you are right.
 

Which is why I referred to TW Vanilla as a "default app": from my perspective, the Tiddles and the wiki are two distinct things.

Nope. ... For TW everything is a tiddler. TiddlyWiki itself is build with tiddlers.

This mechanism adds some complexity, but it is the only reason, why TW is so flexible. So removing the complexity, by starting from scratch, may seem to be a nice goal at first. But in the end you'll end up, with something similar to what TW is at the moment. Trust me!

The TW layout can be modified by "end users" down to the basic core functionality with "themes" and "views". ... I don't know any other software, that gives "users" not "developers" so much power. You can have a look at youtube, how the TW UI changed over time. see: TiddlyWiki History

The wiki is simply one of the cool things that can be built from Tiddlers. Earlier this week I was even sketching ideas for how one might use Tiddlers to build an application with electron, by having each UI panel as a separate $tw instance, and keeping their tiddle stores in sync.

Syncing content is one of the most complex things, we try to do in the web era. .. Not because syncing is complicated. It's because the web is evil, and we need to deal with security instead of syncing :/
 

Which is what brings me back to my original question, which might be better phrased as "How do I separate the Tiddles from the Wiki?"

In the original post (OP), you want to get rid of the system and shadow tiddlers. IMO at the moment, you can't get rid of them, without destroying the application. In TW they are part of the "programming language to create TW functionality".

Just to be sure. TW knows themes, and views. ... So reading your hand written ideas, you want to go with your own theme, which can be completely different to the vanilla theme. You just need to know, what to do. TW also knows about "editions" see: http://tiddlywiki.com/#Editions, https://youtu.be/7tRvAj1ZG9s?t=1056 and https://youtu.be/7tRvAj1ZG9s?t=1282

If you want to "separate your content from the application", you can use tiddlywiki with nodejs. see: http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js ... The nodejs server is intended to be used by TW developers, for local testing. IMO there isn't any security, if exposed to the web, but it should get you started locally.

For additional info you may find this interesting: http://hangouts.tiddlyspace.com

have fun!
mario

[PMario]

On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 2:16:09 AM UTC+2, Ben H. wrote:

On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 2:34:58 PM UTC-7, Evolena wrote:

Maybe the right question is not "How do I separate the Tiddlers from the Wiki?" (tiddlers, not tiddles :) )but "How do I modify the UI to fit my needs"?

No, I definitely want to go beyond tweaking TW-Vanilla.

I don't think, so. What you describe is much faster and much easier doable if you use the existing framework and just modify it. IOM what you want, is just some theme adjustments. As far as I can see it.

You may also have a look at TiddlyDesktop. .. It's built, using a different framework, called http://nwjs.io/ ... It answers your question: "What if you could use tiddlers to build an <insert your framework here> app?"

The TD client view is a "hidden" tiddlywiki. The level of abstraction used to make it happen, is a bit confusing. But that's not a technical problem :)

-mario

[Chris Dent]

On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 10:19:43 PM UTC+1, Ben H. wrote:

Which is what brings me back to my original question, which might be better phrased as "How do I separate the Tiddles from the Wiki?"

If what you're after is tiddlers without the wiki then TiddlyWeb[1] may be what you want. It provides an HTTP and Python API for storing and manipulating tiddlers in a variety of interesting ways that enables a lot of the linking, addressing and including abstractions of hypertext.

It was originally developer to be the "mother of all server sides" for TiddlyWiki Classic but it very soon became clear that the way it presented tiddlers as first class resources in the system made it very powerful.

I continue to use it as a primary tool for building apps and other tools that require linking or transclusion of little bits of stuff.

It has an extensive collection of plugins[2] that let you add functionality on lots of different dimensions.

It is the framework that is underneath my current day to day wiki: https://tank.peermore.com/

One of the reasons I think it might be useful for you is that when people first start using it they often build to do applications or other personal information management systems.

[1] http://tiddlyweb.com

[2] https://pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=search&term=tiddlywebplugins&submit=search

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello Ben H.

I am almost in the opposite position as you are now: I found TW a long ago, and now I am looking for another framework for desktop app building. The reason I leaved TW is because it re-renders the entire wiki too often to my needs and I have to tweak a lot of CSS in order to make it look like a real application instead of a wiki.

In any case, what can be done with TW is awesome. As mario said, have you checked the latest version of TiddlyDesktop? The application, which handles several windows, is not other thing than a tweaked wiki.

If you want to see something with a really different look and feel from TW, take a look at what I am working on for tiddlypouch documentation:

Regards