The penultimate words on saving - multi access and multi user

[TonyM]

Folks. (edited)

Alternative thread Title: "TiddlyWiki Encounters of the Third Kind"

• First = Initial single file wiki on internet see The last word in Saving?
• Second = Single File or read only wiki published on a server
• Third = Delivered on a platform that permits multi-access or multi-user (simultaneously)

This thread in an intentional fork of the last word in saving thread. I am keen to keep the last word in saving focused on single file wikis and a simple path for even new users to make it their own. Invariably this bleeds into multi user and multi access implementation so please raise it here instead.

• Multi access - more than one user updating a tiddlywiki at the same time
• Multi user - more than one user updating a single wiki can be with serial editing or multi access

The only multi access solution I am aware of is Jeds wonderful bob server which addresses the contention when editing tiddlers. Please advise if other wise, perhaps noteself can when configured for cloudDB.

Please share your ideas, experience and more on multi access and multi user tiddlywiki such that we can develop new approaches and documentation or identify gaps we can address as a community.

Regards
Tony

Post Script

Using multi-access and Multi-user implementations of Tiddlywiki can also be extended to multi-device solutions. Such as you would like a tiddlywiki on your mobile and access it on your desktop. Such solutions can make use of a server based solution as needed with multi-access and multi-user (of the simultaneous type)  or single file based wikis stored on a cloud service such as Google Drive, Microsoft One Drive, Dropbox and more. 

Where possible please keep this thread focused on Node, server or folder based solutions and see the discussion  the Last Word in Saving for single file wikis.

[TonyM]

Post Script

Using multi-access and Multi-user implementations of Tiddlywiki can also be extended to multi-device solutions. Such as you would like a tiddlywiki on your mobile and access it on your desktop. Such solutions can make use of a server based solution as needed with multi-access and multi-user (of the simultaneous type)  or single file based wikis stored on a cloud service such as Google Drive, Microsoft One Drive, Dropbox and more. Where possible please keep this thread focused on Node, server or folder based solutions and see the discussion  the Last Word in Saving for single file wikis.

Regards

Tony

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Tony

I thought you already had had "The last word in Saving?" So I will take your "penultimate" as evidence you have time travel :-)

I think multiusers with simultaneous access IS interesting.

Bob definitely is in the right direction. What I seen looks good.

But part of the issue is what is it for?

In my own case I like to chat. But I don't see TW anytime soon being able to do more than post to Twitter & Telegram.

So the interaction you refer to is within a limited scope. What is it?

And that is the point, I think. What are we trying to integrate? For what?

What I'm trying to get to is part of the issue is about fundamentals of tech & part (important part too) is why?

I think we need to see more (including thought experiments) to understand the issue well?

Early thoughts

TT

On Sunday, 24 November 2019 23:41:02 UTC+1, TonyM wrote:

Folks. (edited)

[ILYA]

My two cents,

> I think multiusers with simultaneous access IS interesting.

I think there could be further breakdown of this "requirement". Because there will be completly different set of issues in each case:

- one person (user) having the same wiki opened on multiple devices (clients). There will be edit conflicts because of distributed nature of this system.
- multiple people (users) updating the same wiki. In addition to conflict management, there will be some work to ensure there is no security issues.

Best regards,
iilyak

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Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[Arlen Beiler]

> I thought you already had had "The last word in Saving?" So I will take your "penultimate" as evidence you have time travel :-)

You have made me seriously question my understanding of EVERY use of this word I have ever seen!

Google: define penultimate.

last but one in a series of things; second last.

Arlen

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[Jed Carty]

With Bob you can have one wiki open in multiple tabs with no trouble. And it supports multiple editing at the same time, just not the same tiddler.

For security I made a secure server that has logins and fine grained access control.

[TonyM]

Folks,

This is a penultimate question in so far as it is not the last Question we need to answer How do we enable saving tiddlywikis for naive and casual users? in The last word in Saving? Ok perhaps it is not the perfect word but I do love it :) If multi-user was working we would guide naive and casual users to register and login in and that may be the end of the story in cases where tiddlywiki is published via a server. The penultimate question is for us to answer as designers and enthusiasts how can we deploy more sophisticated solutions.

Let us consider TT's Question

But part of the issue is what is it [multi-user/Multi-access] for?

First I would like to acknowledge Jeds work as already delivering this as a solution, technically it is here.

Tiddlywiki's as personal repositories or for publishing readonly content is brilliant. People can even make it their own "fork" a published tiddlywiki but this is still quite limited when considered along side competing technologies such as cloud delivered multi-user applications, even the humble wordpress can have multiple simultaneous users with different access levels (built in) not dependent on the servers security model. 

As soon as you publish a wiki to an audience you may be interested in receiving feedback, allowing people to participate and add content. Publishing a wiki on your desktop at home or in an office on a lan for multiple-users to access for read only is trivial. As raised in The last word in Saving? I am keen to enable a serial editing method on single file wikis to at least make Wikis editable in teams, if not constrained in the time domains, ie one editor at a time. If this were true with any single file wiki it would be very helpful. But it can be used on top of a server (If not somewhat irrelevant on Bob).

However most of can see the value of multi-access (So we do not break our own wikis in another tab/window or browser) or multi-user (simultaneously editors) and this is in my view the next functional step for designers, developer and enthusiasts. This is where Bob excels because it builds on the various tiddlywiki server options (Node) and provides the contention resolving layer. 

So I raised multi-user multi-access in its own thread to do the following;

• Try and stop it distracting the discussion in The last word in Saving? away from single file wikis and users First encounter experience with users making use of OR adopting tiddlywiki themself
• Open a new discussion here so we can evaluate options and move forward on this subject, which is subtly different from the question of using server (node, TiddlyServer, Bob) or application implementation such as (Apps, TiddlyDesktop ..)

As stated by me earlier is Bob not already the answer?

Yes, Bob probably is the answer to multi-access and multi user but the subject multi access and multi user need not be restricted to one solution. For example serial editing options on top of node will provide a constrained multi-user method so we should be open to discuss other methods of obtaining multi-access and multi-user.

Given the hard work has being done with Bob and now with Bob.exe (Ease of install) and the New Bob Saver Plugin (Which helps transition from single sile wikis to server based wikis) this thread also offers an opportunity to investigate and develop the workflows and ways to transition from single file wikis to robust multi-access and multi-user wikis. I would like us to find methods to document and ease this transition.

Once again I will call on the community to support Jed via his Patreon page because he deserves some compensation for his extensive work to bring these possibilities to TiddlyWiki. Please also consider others who make tireless contributions.

I stand to learn more from the community but here is my "Working Vision".

• Using the bob saver plugin users can make tiddlywikis there own and edit and save locally without Browser or Operating system barriers, importantly using a platform based single executable install.
• With Bob now installed they have access to a tiddlywiki server, management and creation platform so they can enter the world of LAN publishing, Multi-device access, multi access and multi user
• That Bob and other options be explored further, then given the additional support to give users of different experience levels to adopt then turbocharge tiddlywiki.

Serious Questions that remain

• How can we securely place a server and/or multi-access/multi-user online?

Regards

Tony

[TonyM]

Just some thoughts;

Tw-Receiver is one of my favorite extensions that allows a Single File tiddlywiki online to save to the server via php. 

It is somewhat secure because the passcode to save can be stored only in local storage and you can't save without it, Using a server such as an apache server is easy as most online hosting accounts allow this. However this solution is currently limited to single file wikis and is thus dependant of the provision of check in and out or serial editor access. 

• Could we ever implement a full tiddlywiki server on PHP? with multi-access and multi-user

My own internet host does allow me to run an internet facing Node server but I am not sure about its security and its seriously hacky because my service provider does not support it as a mainstream solution. Node can be implemented through Docker.

Noteself using cloudDB and the interim pouchDB is a great solution and being Database driven supports tiddler versions and more. But not multi-user? Yes single user multiple device perhaps (multi-access). I have found it hard locating an online CounchDB service or hosting it myself.

Being a fan boy and experienced wordpress developer I see value if we could use a MySQL database for tiddlywiki, since these databases are available all over the place on cheap hosting services. Further benefit would accrue if wordpress could see tiddlers and tiddlywiki could see wordpress posts and pages. We can already integrate somewhat Tiddlywiki into wordpress sites just not at the tiddler level, only wiki level.

Regards

Tony

On Monday, November 25, 2019 at 9:41:02 AM UTC+11, TonyM wrote:

Folks. (edited)

[TonyM]

Original post updated with

Alternative thread Title: "TiddlyWiki Encounters of the Third Kind"

• First = Initial single file wiki on internet

• Second = Single File or read only wiki published on a server
• Third = Delivered on a platform that permits multi-access or multi-user (simultaneously)

On Monday, November 25, 2019 at 9:41:02 AM UTC+11, TonyM wrote:

Folks. (edited)

Alternative thread Title: "TiddlyWiki Encounters of the Third Kind"

First = Initial single file wiki on internet

[Ste Wilson]

Noteself does have a multi user thing. You can grab it from somewhere in this here group. I think ibm changing it's couchdb offering to something less nice to use stalled noteself before it really got going. Getting another couchdb seems tricky.

Twederarion for single file wikis by the amazing Jed also deserves a mention as something which allowes tiddlers to be shared commented, followed, pushed and pulled across wikis.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ste Wilson wrote:

Noteself does have a multi user thing. You can grab it from somewhere in this here group. I think ibm changing it's couchdb offering to something less nice to use stalled noteself before it really got going. Getting another couchdb seems tricky.

I agree. Part of the issue is Noteself is (I think) just Danielo. There is a side to all this about how to make a tool at least break even. Sustainability can get very difficult for on-web networked solutions without income. 

Twederarion for single file wikis by the amazing Jed also deserves a mention as something which allowes tiddlers to be shared commented, followed, pushed and pulled across wikis.

I agree. Also the sveral aspects of what Jed has done. Which are extensive. Covering local networks, online serving, basic authentication, as well as node "in-a-box" (Bob.EXE) for the effete, like me.

Best wishes

TT 

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TonyM

I have been thinking about this discussion, as well as "The Last Word In Saving".

I concluded I might be interesting to request specific usage/app. need in their details.

Why? Because I think real needed app./service specs will help clarify parts of the puzzle.

I can post a detailed one if you want. Let me know.

Best wishes

TT

[TonyM]

TT,

Go ahead. Please post a reply here with the details, If you think it will have a long thread of its own perhaps start a new one and link back here and from here to there.

In "The Last Word In Saving" I raised an example Of a wiki to handle the Sustainable Development Goals, this is intended as a personal tiddlywiki for people. I presume by raising this in this thread you are considering a multi-user one?

I have a use case that has being on my mind for the multi-user environment but I would also be content if it enabled serial editing.

Rolling Agenda(s) 

A wiki for a team or committee to use to raise issues, monitor, prioritise and action. This tool would help people submit Agenda items, generate an agenda, Support the actual meetings, Record and issue minutes of minutes and provide individualised lists for members who have items assigned. The rolling nature is items reoccur until completed. It will be a live and permanent document of the team/project/committees actions. Individuals can use it for their own projects as well. 

Perhaps if we restrict its scope to an internal LAN for multiple users with more than one editor.

Regards

Tony

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi,

I just mentioned Glitch in the other thread, as it was relatively simple to set up and I could imagine using it in a starter course for the first lesson(s) or steps, before people download their single file wiki and proceed in a local environment.

But – without knowing about multi user capabilities or simultaneous access options – it might qualify for second or third kind encounters too. It runs on a server in the cloud and thus is a multi-device solution. Hope you agree.

Cheers,

Thomas

On Sunday, November 24, 2019 at 11:41:02 PM UTC+1, TonyM wrote:

• Third = Delivered on a platform that permits multi-access or multi-user (simultaneously)
  

Using multi-access and Multi-user implementations of Tiddlywiki can also be extended to multi-device solutions. [...]  or single file based wikis stored on a cloud service such as Google Drive, Microsoft One Drive, Dropbox and more.

[TonyM]

Thanks Thomas,

It is amazing how many alternate implementations and delivery mechanisms are available for tiddlyWiki. I will look behind the scenes of Glitch. I suppose what you are raising here is providing TiddlyWiki as a service TWaaS which has being hinted at a few times. Lets prepare a basic overview of the method and background to using Glitch to fully add it to the options here.

Et al..

Given Bobs new Saver plugin (I am still to test) and the ease of a bob.exe install, I was experimenting a little, of course Bob can be available on your network, perhaps one that your mobile can access, or any device that can be on your internal network. I note that in fact that a bob wiki can remain operational in the Mobile browser even when disconnected (Perhaps an alternate less imposing reconnect button would help) with a little experimenting I think the local storage plugin may help a user return to the wiki while off line, and of course Bob is good at reconnecting and resolving conflicts. The advantage here is it is a next step from The last word in Saving?

Regards

Tony