TW group welcome message might need an update?

[Erwan]

Hi everyone,

I just noticed the following line in the welcome message for the TW Google group (i.e. what we see here):

"In addition to questions/answers in this group, there is also a public TiddlySpace containing TiddlyWiki Community Documentation."

The link points to the TWC documentation as if it was the only one existing. I think that might be confusing for newcomers, maybe this message could be updated?

Regards,
Erwan

[Tobias Beer]

Hi Erwan,

Very much agree that it needs at least a mentioning of only being relevant for TWC.

Best wishes,

— tb

[Danielo Rodríguez]

I totally agree.

When I started using Tiddlywiki that gave me a couple of headaches. I was quite close to give it up.

I think it does not have any sense to point to TWC documentation into TW5 documentation, it can only cause confusion.

+1 for absolute deletion, the link should be on classic.tiddlywiki.com

[Eric Shulman]

I updated the greeting message to make it more apparent that the TiddlySpace documentation is for TiddlyWiki Classic.

However... I have decided not to remove the link.   While the old documentation may not be of much use to people who are relatively new to TiddlyWiki (and thus have only used TiddlyWiki 5), TiddlyWiki Classic is still in wide use by many people, and there are still lots of people who come here looking for help with TWC.

-e

TiddlyWiki GoogleGroups Admin

[Mat]

I'm wondering if people might assume TiddlyWiki Classic to be some kind of edition in TW5. Kind of like you can often choose if you want a "minimal", "custom" or "standard" version when installing software. The word "Classic" might be mistaken for "default" or "what most people use". 

Anyway, inspired from this thread I put up a proposal that visitors to classic.tiddlywiki.com should immediately see a note about TW5.

We should really do what we can to steer users, particularly newcomers, to TW5. (That said, TWC is great and my main TW is still a TWC !)

<:-)

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello Eric,

 

I updated the greeting message to make it more apparent that the TiddlySpace documentation is for TiddlyWiki Classic.

However... I have decided not to remove the link.   While the old documentation may not be of much use to people who are relatively new to TiddlyWiki (and thus have only used TiddlyWiki 5), TiddlyWiki Classic is still in wide use by many people, and there are still lots of people who come here looking for help with TWC.

I'm still not understanding why we should keep a link. It is not usual to find documentation links of other applications in the main page of one application. We have to admit that TWC and TW5 are two totally different applications. Is like looking for Netscape documentation into chrome website, both are browsers, but I don't think the configurations are compatible.

 People that wants tiddlywiki classic should be redirected to classic.tiddlywiki.com and we could place the tiddler there.

Something like: If you want TWC documentation please visit classic.tiddlywiki.com

Regards. 

[Eric Shulman]

They are not two separate applications. Nearly everything in Tiddlywiki5 is based on funtionality initially developed in Tiddlywiki Classic. Just because *you* don't use TWC doesn't mean that we should push 10 years of valuable discussions off to the side. If we had wanted to do that, we would have started a new group just for TW5. Before you summarily dismiss TWC as irrelevant to TW5 discussions, you should consider the fact that most of the requests for new features in TW5 are based on what has already been done as plugins in TWC. You could learn a lot by getting to know TWC and it's rich eco-system of plugins, themes, etc.

-e

[Robert Edwards]

I can be pretty dense some times and I generally assume I'm in no way special, therefore other people can be pretty dense at times as well. So to make it abundantly obvious to people like me, why not change the name of the link and the linked-to page from "TiddlyWiki Community Documentation" to "TiddlyWiki Classic Community Documentation"? I know it says "For Classic...." on this page and "For TW <=2.8.1" on the doc page, but the link and the title are going to be the first things people look at. I do agree with keeping the Classic docs linked -- as long as classic is still in use then it's beneficial to keep around. And as a user of both classic and tw5, I know I look at it from time to time....

[Robert Edwards]

...and for that matter on the welcome tiddler, it could say something like, "Hello! This is the community documentation for Tiddlywiki Classic. In 2015 Tiddlywiki received a ground-up rewrite -- that project is called Tiddlywiki 5 and can be found at tiddlywiki.com". Again, just to make as obvious as possible to folks who may not have know about tiddlywiki 15 minutes prior to landing on that page....

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Robert

I’ve made some changes to the introduction tiddler at http://tiddlywiki.org along the lines you suggested,

Many thanks,

Jeremy.

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[Robert Edwards]

Thanks!

[Danielo Rodríguez]

El viernes, 2 de octubre de 2015, 19:48:10 (UTC+2), Eric Shulman escribió:

They are not two separate applications.  Nearly everything in Tiddlywiki5 is based on funtionality initially developed in Tiddlywiki Classic.  Just because *you* don't use TWC doesn't mean that we should push 10 years of valuable discussions off to the side.  If we had wanted to do that, we would have started a new group just for TW5.  Before you summarily dismiss TWC as irrelevant to TW5 discussions, you should consider the fact that most of the requests for new features in TW5 are based on what has already been done as plugins in TWC.  You could learn a lot by getting to know TWC and it's rich eco-system of plugins, themes, etc.

-e

Hello Eric,

I don't know why do you think that, but I don't want to put TWC aside. I don't use it, but that does not mean that I don't appreciate it. You looks offended and I can't understand why.

I was just saying that TWC is the old classic version of tiddlywiki, and as long as they share the same idea behind them they work very different. It's liike windows XP and windows 7. They are both fantastic Operating systems, but one is ten years older.

I don't want to totally delete any reference to TWC from tiddlywiki.com, I have suggested to put a link to tiddlywiki classic, and put there the documentation. Why do you understand that I want to put it aside from that sentence?

In any case, I feel like Robert's Edwards suggestion is the best approach.

[Eric Shulman]

On Sunday, October 4, 2015 at 7:23:22 AM UTC-7, Danielo Rodríguez wrote:

I don't know why do you think that, but I don't want to put TWC aside. I don't use it, but that does not mean that I don't appreciate it. You looks offended and I can't understand why.

I don't want to totally delete any reference to TWC from tiddlywiki.com, I have suggested to put a link to tiddlywiki classic, and put there the documentation. Why do you understand that I want to put it aside from that sentence?

You were advocating "+1 for absolute deletion" of the link to the TiddlyWiki Classic Community Documentation from the GoogleGroups greeting message. You also said that TWC is a "totally different application" and a link to Classic documentation doesn't belong in this group (i.e., "like looking for Netscape documentation into chrome website").

This seemed a bit severe and somewhat dismissive of the continued value of the existing TWC documentation.

However, people who use TiddlyWiki Classic still use *this* group as their primary source of information, and the link to the TiddlySpace-based documentation is still highly relevant and useful to many, many people in the community.

In addition, there is a huge eco-system of TiddlyWiki Classic functionality that could be adapted and/or re-written for TiddlyWiki5, so it's good for new TiddlyWiki5 users to gain perspective and learn from ideas, features and plugins that were initially developed for TiddlyWiki Classic.

 

In any case, I feel like Robert's Edwards suggestion is the best approach.

In response to Erwan's initial post, I have adjusted the text in the greeting message to make it clear that the TiddlySpace-based "TiddlyWiki Community Documentation" is for TiddlyWiki Classic.

That change, along with Jeremy's response to Robert Edward's suggestion to change some text on TiddlyWiki.org, should sufficiently address any potential for confusion for newcomers to TiddlyWiki5, without reducing the support for TiddlyWiki Classic users seeking that documentation.

enjoy,

-e

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello Eric,

This is a misunderstanding and an error from my side.

For some reason I skip the word "Google group" on the initial message and some magic chemicals made me think it was referring to tiddlywiki.com welcome message. Since I have not read the HelloThere tiddler recently, I took for granted that the link was there instead of checking it again. Now I understand how bad and severe my asseveration looked like and I'm very sorry about it. Please understand that on every message that you have read from my side was not referring to the welcome message, but to the HelloThere tiddler on tiddlywiki.com. If you can re-think the conversation on that way It would sound not so bad and will make me feel a little less bad.

So, sorry for saying something I never wanted to say ( several times). I agree on TWC to be included in the welcome message of the google group.

This was a terrible misreading error from my side, and I'm very embarrassed about it.

Regards.

[Hegart Dmishiv]

Thanks for raising this issue again, Erwan. It was one of the first things I mentioned in these discussion forums when I started using TiddlyWiki a month ago, as it confused the heck out of me too...

I was banging my head against a brick wall trying to implement something from the "community documentation" in my first TW wiki, only to realize later that it would never work, as it was for the wrong version. Frustrating!

From previous thread.

 

Also, thanks Eric for making the changes to the forum blurb. I think it looks a lot clearer now.

Kind regards,

Hegart.