Many tags slow TW down?

275 views
Skip to first unread message

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 20, 2020, 8:36:40 AM4/20/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
I have read this somewhere and was wondering if it is true. I have several tens of tags and TW has not slowed down at all. If so, what is a number where one can expect TW to slow down?

PMario

unread,
Apr 20, 2020, 9:34:40 AM4/20/20
to TiddlyWiki
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 2:36:40 PM UTC+2, Peter Buyze wrote:
I have read this somewhere and was wondering if it is true. I have several tens of tags and TW has not slowed down at all. If so, what is a number where one can expect TW to slow down?

Filtering with fields and tags got index handling in TW V5.1.20, because Jeremy needed improved performance for TWs with up to 60000 tiddlers. See: GitHub PR. This mechanism will also improve wikis with less content ;)

So you can test "bigger" wikis if you have a look at tiddlywiki.com See the ControlPanel overview. It has about 1300 tiddlers and 300 tags. For me it's fine to be used with a mobile phone, without any glitches.

-mario

Mark S.

unread,
Apr 20, 2020, 10:10:30 AM4/20/20
to TiddlyWiki
It's not the number of tags, it's the number of items that share a tag. And it's mostly when using the
tag filter operator. I found my 36,000 item dictionary ground to a halt when I used the tag filter.
I reworked the filter so that it didn't need "tag", and now the dictionary has more than 60,000 items.

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 20, 2020, 11:29:47 AM4/20/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
Thanks Mario.


20 Apr 2020, 16:34 by pmar...@gmail.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 20, 2020, 11:44:25 AM4/20/20
to 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Mark, so what is an acceptable number of items (I assume you mean tiddlers) that can comfortably share a tag? You reworking the filter is a workaround that a regular, non-expert user won't be able to handle.

--
Securely sent with Tutanota. Get your own encrypted, ad-free mailbox:


20 Apr 2020, 17:10 by tiddl...@googlegroups.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

A Gloom

unread,
Apr 20, 2020, 12:09:59 PM4/20/20
to TiddlyWiki
First issue you will see with amount of tags and slow downs is this:

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 20, 2020, 12:21:42 PM4/20/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
@A., Gloom: Thanks for that.
I don't understand what that hidden setting does and what to change it to.

--
Securely sent with Tutanota. Get your own encrypted, ad-free mailbox:


20 Apr 2020, 19:09 by barro...@gmail.com:
First issue you will see with amount of tags and slow downs is this:


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

Birthe C

unread,
Apr 20, 2020, 12:53:38 PM4/20/20
to TiddlyWiki
Peter,

You have used the search, I am sure. You will have to enter 3 letters before something happens.
Now think the same for the tag dropdown. 0 or 3 or what have you. The hidden setting is pr. default 0, change that to your liking.
I would not do it before having to.

Birthe

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 20, 2020, 12:55:32 PM4/20/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
OK Birthe, I understand now. I won't touch until needed. I made a note of the setting so I can easily find it back to adjust it.
Thank you.

--
Securely sent with Tutanota. Get your own encrypted, ad-free mailbox:


20 Apr 2020, 19:53 by strikke...@gmail.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

TonyM

unread,
Apr 20, 2020, 9:59:44 PM4/20/20
to TiddlyWiki
Peter,

Tags are really good for instant relationships and are there out of the box. If you use too many different tags we call this "polluting the tag space" because there a too many tags and they become unwieldy to use, before they perform badly. 

If you find your wiki slowing or with too many tags there are a range of ways to move tags to fields. For example say you had a tag for tasks then 5 tags for status have a field called tiddler-type = Task, and a field status = new/wip/done etc...

Now rather than use tag filters use field filters. In fact they can read very nicely, for example this is a valid filter for use in a tiddler tagged viewTemplate

`[all[current]tiddler-type[task]`
Or
`[all[current]tiddler-type[task]!status[new]]`

Personally I use very few tags even for complex solutions, because I drive my design into fields rather than use tags. This allows my tags to remain free for ad hoc categories.

Unless you design fields to contain multiple values they are useful in so far as a field eg status, can only have one value at a time, if using tags when you tag a task as done, you may also need to remove the tag new.

Also one thing you may come to realise is every filter starts by considering most if not all tiddlers and the filter reduces them eg;
`[haschanged[]]` considers all tiddlers then extracts those that have changed. See also https://tiddlywiki.com/#Filter%20Run in some ways it shows you how tiddlywiki already performs well with titles, because most filters consider every tiddler title already.

  • If you say [tag[done]] it needs to check every tiddlers tag field and if it contains done (along with other tags)
  • If you say [status[done]] it needs to check every tiddlers status field and if it equals done (a slightly simpler test)
Titles, tags and other elements are stored in working indexes in memory to facilitate this performance.

Regards
Tony


-- 
Securely sent with Tutanota. Get your own encrypted, ad-free mailbox:


20 Apr 2020, 17:10 by tiddl...@googlegroups.com:
It's not the number of tags, it's the number of items that share a tag. And it's mostly when using the
tag filter operator. I found my 36,000 item dictionary ground to a halt when I used the tag filter.
I reworked the filter so that it didn't need "tag", and now the dictionary has more than 60,000 items.

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 5:36:40 AM UTC-7, Peter Buyze wrote:
I have read this somewhere and was wondering if it is true. I have several tens of tags and TW has not slowed down at all. If so, what is a number where one can expect TW to slow down?


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 4:14:20 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
Hi Tony,
thanks for this detailed explanation. It clears up some things.

Right now I am using TW to build a zettelkasten, for which I already have 400 old notes that I am transcribing manually onto tiddlers. I am using about 150 tags - previous apps did not have the "fields" possibility.

I must say I had wondered about the use of fields instead of tags. In the past I was always very dubious about tags, then with zettelkasten work I could see more use for them, and now with TW they really make it a lot easier to see if and which tiddlers having the same tag could be linked.

I have a tiddler that lists all my tags and which tiddlers go with each tag. That way I can easily sift through seemingly unrelated tiddlers that have the same tag to decide if they should be cross-linked.

Could the same be achieved with fields? And how is it "logistically" possible to have 150 fields? And, from what I gather from others' comments, 150 tags is not too unwieldy, or is it?


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

A Gloom

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 4:26:58 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki
I have a tiddler that lists all my tags and which tiddlers go with each tag. That way I can easily sift through seemingly unrelated tiddlers that have the same tag to decide if they should be cross-linked.

Same here with over 500 tags and over 2000 titles and no issues

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 4:48:50 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
Good to know, thanks.



21 Apr 2020, 11:26 by barro...@gmail.com:
I have a tiddler that lists all my tags and which tiddlers go with each tag. That way I can easily sift through seemingly unrelated tiddlers that have the same tag to decide if they should be cross-linked.

Same here with over 500 tags and over 2000 titles and no issues


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

Birthe C

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 5:04:29 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki
Peter,

I think we should pay attention to the examples Tony gave - task and priority. That kind of stuff.
Tobias Beer advocated very much for the use of fields and created some demos. (no I do not remember the links right now)


Birthe

A Gloom

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 5:32:48 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki

I think we should pay attention to the examples Tony gave - task and priority. That kind of stuff.
Tobias Beer advocated very much for the use of fields and created some demos. (no I do not remember the links right now)

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 5:57:50 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
Hi Birthe,

long time no speak ;-))

Yes, I do pay attention to them, which is why I asked him a couple of questions because I do want to understand fields and how to use them. Nevertheless, for the moment I am using TW exclusively for zettelkasten work, for which I need some 150 tags.



21 Apr 2020, 12:04 by strikke...@gmail.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 6:04:00 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
@A. Gloom, @Birthe,

that looks good, but I would one use that to replace say 150 tags?



21 Apr 2020, 12:32 by barro...@gmail.com:

I think we should pay attention to the examples Tony gave - task and priority. That kind of stuff.
Tobias Beer advocated very much for the use of fields and created some demos. (no I do not remember the links right now)


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

TonyM

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 6:07:40 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki
Peter

I followed your links 're zest...Ian and I think the idea to avoid categories and other organising principals in favor of tags is wrong. I could put the full argument but it would take time based on a long career in IT. I plan to learn more.

I will try and share some tools for using fields more in time.

Regards
Tony

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 6:24:26 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
OK Tony, I understand. I am not against using fields per se, but the issue I have how to replace my 150 tags with fields?



21 Apr 2020, 13:07 by anthony...@gmail.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

HC Haase

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 6:27:50 AM4/21/20
to tiddl...@googlegroups.com
Hi Tony

I am a long time converted zetteler. My wiki is also an tempt to follow the zettlekasten method. I see a lot of merit in the method so let me correct you. It is not about avoiding categories, the idea is to avoid forcing a structure of categories. Instead you to let the categories emerge from your associations and work with the notes. you don´t put your notes into a limiting structure of categories but you let the categories emerge from your notes. you could do that with whatever tools you want tags, fields etc. but it get hard to "jump" from tags to fields unless the use of the two are very clearly defined.

A Gloom

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 7:25:46 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki
Hello Peter,

that looks good, but I would one use that to replace say 150 tags?

I would stick with tags-- 150 isn't a large amount.  One thing tags have over fields is TW shows the tags in view mode (under the tiddler title) while it doesn't show fields unless you set up a filter or transclusions to make them visible (or modify the view template to display them). And tags have the tag pill which is a menu of all other tiddlers tagged with that tag.

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 7:42:13 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
@A.Gloom, thanks for that insight.

--
Securely sent with Tutanota. Get your own encrypted, ad-free mailbox:


21 Apr 2020, 14:25 by barro...@gmail.com:
Hello Peter,

that looks good, but I would one use that to replace say 150 tags?

I would stick with tags-- 150 isn't a large amount.  One thing tags have over fields is TW shows the tags in view mode (under the tiddler title) while it doesn't show fields unless you set up a filter or transclusions to make them visible (or modify the view template to display them). And tags have the tag pill which is a menu of all other tiddlers tagged with that tag.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

TonyM

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 7:58:46 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki
HC then peter

Yes I understand where you are coming from and that is not committing too soon to structuring your data so that relationships emerge in time. I am all for that however I also like to discover relationships while I collect my data and make sure I capture as much about my data's relationships to other data as I capture it.

I suppose its because I have years of professional experience handling information and knowledge that I have and use a lot of strategic structures I organise my data with, that increases my ability to discover relationships.

The beauty of tiddlywiki is almost any organisational method can layover in multiple layers and views of almost any data.

Its a big but interesting subject and I will look into it more.

Peter you ask about 150 tags, but did you realise you could have an additional tag field with another 150 tags if you want, after all the tags are just a field.

For example what if one tag set related to the disposition of tiddlers independent from their other relationships. Have you used the tableofcontents mechanisium, even with that you can build a multitude of heirachies, list, sets, groups. Every tiddler can be a record in one or more tables in one or more database structures all while maintaining a nonlinear model as well.

I hope I make sense.

Regards
Tony

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 8:10:04 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki forum




Peter you ask about 150 tags, but did you realise you could have an additional tag field with another 150 tags if you want, after all the tags are just a field.
150 tags in 1 field, not in 150 separate fields?
For example what if one tag set related to the disposition of tiddlers independent from their other relationships. Have you used the tableofcontents mechanisium, even with that you can build a multitude of heirachies, list, sets, groups. Every tiddler can be a record in one or more tables in one or more database structures all while maintaining a nonlinear model as well.
Yes, in fact, I have a tiddler set up as a ToC, and another one as a list of my tags and related tiddlers.
I guess if the tags are incorporated in a field, so to speak, what is the advantage? What about visibility - would I have a tiddler listing all the "tags" (or whatever they are then called) with their dependent tiddlers, as I have now?



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

David Gifford

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 8:23:10 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki
Part of the beauty of TiddlyBlink is that you can use links instead of tags.

TonyM

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 8:27:39 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki
Tags are only a special case of a single field with multiple values

I will try and share some field tips soon.

Tony

A Gloom

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 8:29:00 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki
Here's something to play with-- its a variation of your tiddler with all tags and their tagged tiddlers-- the Subject Index is the main tiddler and the template tiddler is used by it
#index list template.tid
#Subject Index 1.tid

Birthe C

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 8:33:28 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki
Please Tony,

When you have the time I would really appreciate a demo wiki. I know I am slow, but also language barrier hit me at times.
Several times I have worked trying to organize my wiki better, make more and better use of  fields - but I end up in the biggest rabbit hole ever -  every time.

Not to mention Jeds Gentags, so promising but exploding my brain at some point.

Birthe

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 8:35:20 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
@David: how so?

--
Securely sent with Tutanota. Get your own encrypted, ad-free mailbox:


21 Apr 2020, 15:23 by dgif...@crcna.org:
Part of the beauty of TiddlyBlink is that you can use links instead of tags.

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 7:36:40 AM UTC-5, Peter Buyze wrote:
I have read this somewhere and was wondering if it is true. I have several tens of tags and TW has not slowed down at all. If so, what is a number where one can expect TW to slow down?


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 8:36:17 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
Thanks Tony.



21 Apr 2020, 15:27 by anthony...@gmail.com:
Tags are only a special case of a single field with multiple values

I will try and share some field tips soon.

Tony

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

PMario

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 8:41:32 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki
Hi Peter,

As Tony pointed out, tags is "just a field" in a tiddler. If you open the tiddler info area you can see them under the "Fields" tab.
The tiddler info area is under the tag menu  "\/ More : (i) Info"

So 1 tags field can handle different values. .. The same is true for fields. You only need 1 field that can handle different values. ... So you don't need 150 more fields. That would be painful.

The advantage of tags is, that the TW UI makes it simple to deal with them. If you want to use fields, you have to define most of the UI yourself.

I did create a tocP plugin that lets you create a TOC which uses the "parent" field instead of tags. ... So you could use your tags as one thing and create the TOC with a different mechanism.

This plugin also adds a button to the "outline" that let's you create new tiddlers, where the parent field is already populated. The field name "parent" is just a convention, you can also use any other name, if you like. The example tab "test-tocP-asdf" uses the field asdf to store the "parent" relation.

have fun!
mario


Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 9:04:06 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
Mario, thanks. 

So, if I understand well, tocP makes various Tables of Content, and it could make one of my tags with the related "normal" text tiddlers that I have created.

If that's correct, what is the advantage of me having a tag listing tiddler with this in the text box:
```
<div class="tc-table-of-contents">
    <<toc-selective-expandable "tag" sort[title]>>
    </div>
```

--
Securely sent with Tutanota. Get your own encrypted, ad-free mailbox:


21 Apr 2020, 15:41 by pmar...@gmail.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

Birthe C

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 9:16:09 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki
Peter,

Do you want more to play with a headache perhaps Gentags ?

Birthe

TonyM

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 10:23:04 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki
Peter

One advantage of Mario's TOCP is you can do the equivalent of new here which tags the children with the the current tiddler.

With tocp new with parent sets the parent field of new children to the current tiddler. Given any random tiddler you can look at the parent field and identify its only parent. So you can work you're way back up the tree to parent, grand parent etc... With tags there may be more than one tag so in a way you have multiple parents, bob may be your parent but how do you know the parent is not task or done or the other tags?

Of course you can also list all tiddlers with the current tiddler in the parent field to find all children.
Also in any tiddler you can display {{!!parent}} to see what's in the parent field and even better put the display of this field in a tiddler tagged view template.

So you can see in this example you can build the equivalent of the toc without a tag for each tiddler in that toc and you know exactly who the parent is.

Mario provides other tools to make use of the TOCP and the parent field.

So you can see by using additional field like parent your wiki could contain multiple hierarchies at one time if you wanted.

I hope this helps.

Regards
Tony

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 11:16:55 AM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
Thanks Birthe, I made a note of it. When I get more used to tags and fields I may well go back to it.

21 Apr 2020, 16:16 by strikke...@gmail.com:
Peter,

Do you want more to play with a headache perhaps Gentags ?

Birthe


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

Peter Buyze

unread,
Apr 21, 2020, 12:03:24 PM4/21/20
to TiddlyWiki forum
Thanks Tony. I have to digest that and see how I can use it.


21 Apr 2020, 17:23 by anthony...@gmail.com:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages