TiddlyWorldBuilder vs TiddlyRoam

[Darth Mole]

So I'm still planning TiddlyWorldBuilder though I haven't had a chance to work on it this past week. During my planning though I came across something that I got confused about in the beginning.

It seems that when I combined TIddlyStroll (minus the two column view) and TiddlyMap I'm simply making an updated version of TiddlyRoam. From my understanding TiddlyRoam originally used TiddlyBlink which was the predecessor to TiddlyStroll.

So at this time, the only two differences between TiddlyWorldBuilder and TiddlyRoam is that I'm using the updated TiddlyStroll code (minus the two column view) and have added TiddlyMentat (minus the Engine plugin being active).

Just figured I would put the above out there to ensure proper credit has been given and to keep everyone in the loop of what I've come across/put together for TiddlyWorldBuilder.

Thanks!

Roam - https://tiddlyroam.org/

Stroll - https://giffmex.org/stroll/stroll.html 

Blink - https://giffmex.org/gifts/tiddlyblink.html

Mentat - https://github.com/theSherwood/Mentat

[paulgilbert2000]

how is this differnet from tiddly maps ?

[David Gifford]

Yes, TiddlyBlink (blink = bidirectional link) was my first attempt to imitate Roam in TiddlyWiki. Stroll (not 'TiddlyStroll') was my later experiment that improved on it, with mucho help coming from Saq Imtiaz. TiddlyRoam is just someone else's combination of TiddlyBlink + TiddlyMap.

Grab or adapt anything you like from TiddlyBlink or Stroll that you find helpful.

[Darth Mole]

Hello David and thank you very much for your reply, clarification, and contributions (already given and offered)! I will be sure to only reference it as Stroll going forward :)

If I may ask, and I feel this is from an ignorance on my part so I apologize, what is the purpose of the bi-directional linking? I understand the functionality, but from a practice standpoint, is the idea just to provide a quick reference/link for convenience (as mentioned Linking in Stroll, part 2 from your site which I just now read a second time and perhaps did so correctly this time lol)? Or is it also way to create a "summary" or "list" of related content? I guess my confusion/over thinking is coming from the idea that if you are writing a wiki entry and link to a related entry then somewhere in that entry there would end up a link back to the original entry. Now I'm saying wiki entry but in this case I mean Tiddler.

IE:

Country A

Country A is a vast land composed of [[City A]], [[City B]], and [[City C]]. Etc. Etc.

City A

City A is the capital of [[Country A]] and is due north of [[City B]], and [[City C]]. Etc. Etc.

City B

City B, is the second largest city of [[Country A]] and can be found south of [[City A]] and west of [[City C]].

City C

City C, is the smallest all of [[Country A]]'s cities and can be found south of [[City A]] and east of [[City B]].

In order for the bi-directional links of Stroll to work I would need to do the above, or at least have a reference like section where I list out the associated Tiddler links at least once. But haven't I already created a bi-directional link when I linked to/created City A from Country A and then referenced Country A in City A?

I could see not having any content in Country A, simply a tiddler with the title Country A and then having the related contents of City A, B, and C link to [[Country A]] with Highlights in context turned on in the Stroll settings. But then how do you determine which Tiddler level to use the "summary"?

There is also the idea that I'm butchering the tiddler method here and am over complicating things by treating TiddlyWiki as something it isn't by default and that Stroll turns it into. I hope I haven't been offensive in my questions/explanation. Just trying to understand everything better for TiddlyWiki use in general, and my own World Builder project.

Thank you in advance for your time!

[Darth Mole]

Hello Mohamed,

From my understanding the purpose is similar, but the function is very much different. 

Stroll offers bi-directional linking between tiddlers, auto-complete link creation within tiddlers, auto-renaming of links when a tiddler title changes, and a two column view for side by side viewing.

TiddlyMaps also offers bi-directional linking but the connections are displayed in the map tab vs inside the tiddlers themselves. While you can show connections between tiddlers based on tags or titles in the maps you can also create connections that are only displayed/acknowledge by the map plugin. 

Hope this helps and that I'm not too far off the mark.

[David Gifford]

Hi iamdar...

TiddlyWiki always had bidirectional linking. If you create a link in tiddler A to tiddler B, you could go to tiddler B, open "info" from the tiddler more menu, and see tiddler A under backlinks. So obviously, backlinking was pretty hidden and not very practical. Too many steps to get to it.

Roam Research made bidirectional linking more visible. All the references are at the bottom of each page on Roam. So, since Stroll was an experiment to see how much of Roam that I could replicate in TiddlyWiki, I also made b-linking visible.

I use backlinks mostly for quick navigation to related concepts, but it also helps the serendipitous discovery of related concepts.

In the example you give, you wouldn't technically need backlinking, since each tiddler refers to the other (Country A and City A, for example). But as you hint at, there are plenty of topics where you might not want to go through all the effort of writing out each description fully and with ample backlinks, as you have done. Life is short, and hopefully you are not trying to compete with Wikipedia for completeness.

I tend to create what I call index tiddlers when I want to create a table of contents on a given topic (say, Index: Country A). I keep that separate from Country A, where I keep the definition and description. But I usually find a way to hide index tiddlers when viewing in context or as transclusion, because index tiddlers tend to be longer.

If you haven't seen Drift, you might also want to see the way it handles references. https://akhater.github.io/drift/ It was inspired by Stroll, but avoids the extra column, and adds tagging and freelinks to the references, which is more thorough.

I don't think the focus on backlinking in Stroll is pulling TiddlyWiki away from its roots. In part it is just making more explicit the backlink feature that already existed in TW. And in part, because ultimately TW is about customization and mixing and matching to create the workflow you need. And that would be my main advice to you as you build the world builder: don't rush to make it public. Play with it for awhile, use it yourself, and tweak it in order to eliminate defects and make it work for your workflow. That way when you do feel comfortable with the 'final' product, you will be able to describe not only the features but a suggested workflow. You need to be able to articulate what WorldBuilder does best, and for what real world use cases.

Not offended, I understood what you meant, and I hope the above helps.

[Darth Mole]

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and providing so much feedback! It has been very helpful.

If I may ask two follow-up questions:

1)  I do seem to be driving for a Wikipedia level of thoroughness regarding the content, at least with this world building concept. At the same time I'm still having trouble finding a way to collect my thoughts on other topics in general. Do you feel it is safe to say that if I'm taking the hitting the content with a Wikipedia level of thoroughness then I, as you pointed out, am already doing the organization/relationship building manually? If yes, is there a "better" (or more simplistic) way where I utilize the tools in Stroll (or even Drift) to make it more automated? Or is the effort I'm putting in just a requirement of the wikipedia level of content?

2) Using my original example of tiddlers another method I could use would be instead of adding the link back to the Country tiddler inside the City tiddler description, just leave the single link at the top when you created it from the Country tiddler and then keep typing. In that case it is just a preference of how you want to do the link back?

Also, again thank you very much for mentioning Drift. While I'm still looking into it, and I think I came across it before though I didn't understand it fully the first time around, from what I understand now of "Freelinks" it might be the answer I'm looking for regarding trying to write down as much as possible, regardless of content and topic, and have it grouped together by keywords. It could also beneficial when I once again combine my world tiddly with my book tiddly so as I write things in the book I can reference it later on the appropriate/associated/specific tiddler with Freelinks turned on.

Not to sound redundant but thank you again!

[David Gifford]

There is no right answer, there is only the way that feels right to you and gives you a fast, non-tedious, enjoyable workflow based on how your mind works, which may be different from mine. The more you experiment, the more options you will find.

The "usual" way in TiddlyWiki is tagging a tiddler with its parent topics or categories. So City A might be tagged "Cities" and "Country A". Then you write your definition and description and if you see potential links, you turn them into actual links, or use a tool like Freelinks to have them be links without them being links. Remember that Freelinks are not bi-directional. So if you mention City A in tiddler of Country A, the reference to City A will show as a link. But in the City A tiddler, nothing will change, so there will be no reference to Country A.

I don't tend to write link-rich Wikipedia types of tiddlers, so I can't help you too much there. My current system for notetaking from reading is: Create a tiddler for the book or source. Paste the title into a "currently reading" window. Read. Take a note in the relevant topic. Use an editor toolbar button to paste the currently reading tiddler as the source of the note. Add page number. Read and repeat. Fantastic workflow for that. But you may be doing something else that requires something totally different.

HTH

[Darth Mole]

Hello David and thank you for your replies above! I didn't realize I didn't reply to this one before so I'm sorry for the delay! The information you and the others of this group have provided has been amazing and very much appreciated!

One follow-up question about Stroll:

How hard would it be to change the two vertical column layout to a two horizontal row layout instead?

So  as an example instead of 

<div>col1</div> <div>col2</div> as it is now it would be

<div>row1</div>

<div>row2</div> 

Would it be something you would be willing to do? Even if it comes down to reimbursing you for your time in modifying the code in Stroll I would be very much open to it.

[strikke...@gmail.com]

I think it might be better to ask in a new thread - about the stories plugin created by Saq.  Maybe explain a little about the benefit you expect from the changed layout.