TiddlyWiki Hangout #101 will be on Saturday 26th November 2016 at 2pm GMT

[Jeremy Ruston]

I hope you will be able to join me for TiddlyWiki Hangout #101 on Saturday 26th November 2016 at 2pm GMT/UTC. You are welcome to take part as a guest or you can view the proceedings live or at a later date from the archive.

http://hangout-101.tiddlyspot.com/

Please let me know if there's anything you'd particularly like to see discussed.

Best wishes

--

Jeremy Ruston
mailto:jeremy...@gmail.com

[Mat]

Really looking forward to this and see it as an opportunity to catch up a bit. Maybe also some of the newer community member creations and ideas could be mentioned?

Also, I'm curious on the status for the plan to "finish up TW5" (...where "finish" referred to making it complete, not shutting it down. ...whatever "complete" means, actually...?)

Also, I'm guessing there isn't - but IF there is any news on federation related stuff, I'd love to hear it.

<:-)

[Jed Carty]

I am looking forward to this! I may have to run away a bit early though.

[PMario]

Hi,

I'd suggest to talk a little bit about

 - FireFox WebExtensions vs the existing mechanism, which affects TiddlyFox. It will stop working with FF51 (the next version)
 - The future of "active" file saving in browsers, in general.
 - Why it's so damned hard to do "simple things" with the browser.

-m

[PMario]

one more thing:

 - Only about 2 weeks left, till TiddlySpace shuts down.
 - imo TWclassic documentation depends on it. ...

-m

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mario

 - FireFox WebExtensions vs the existing mechanism, which affects TiddlyFox. It will stop working with FF51 (the next version)

 - The future of "active" file saving in browsers, in general.
 - Why it's so damned hard to do "simple things" with the browser.

Great, I’ve updated the wiki:

http://hangout-101.tiddlyspot.com/

 - Only about 2 weeks left, till TiddlySpace shuts down. 

The closure is already on the agenda :)

Best wishes

Jeremy.

-m

[Rizwan Ishak]

Is there any way to join the hangout from keyboard?

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[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Riz

Is there any way to join the hangout from keyboard?

Yes, you can join without a microphone or camera, and use the chat window to talk to others. I hope you can make it,

Best wishes

Jeremy

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[Jeremy Ruston]

TiddlyWiki Hangout #101 is about to start

Watch at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwCm794O6M

Or join in at https://hangouts.google.com/hangouts/_/ytl/EviA_wCkGF_uDl32zT2-_f0hL927oF5-SKPLnd_nBlY=

Let me know if you have any trouble joining

Best wishes

Jeremy.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

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[Rizwan Ishak]

Absolutely. Thanks

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/ABEE0272-294D-445B-B229-C9253D4EE439%40gmail.com.

[Mat]

The usual confusion for me: How do I join. Where's the link? :-/

<:-)

[Mat]

Apropos dropdowns and UI for TW;

In the hangout, fellow Mario expressed concern (dislike) for dropdowns, which reminded me about this presentation. The presentation is initially pretty confusing so I strongly recommend you jump to 18 minutes where they start showing actual alternatives. 

BTW, thanks for the hangout everyone!!! :-) 

@Jed, when things calm down over I intend to get back on the twederation stuff. IMO, it is still one of the absolutely most important 'things' for the world o' tiddly and really a key to open so many doors.

<:-)

[Josiah]

I agree with Mario over dropdowns that go on and on and on. That's quite usual when people have, for instance, created dozens of tags. Dropdowns then become unwieldy.

Jeremy's new "Management" gizmo that remembers and shows up to 8 recent tags is very useful when you need to re-tag a load of tiddlers. I do think that accurately fits a lot of use cases.

BTW, I always found the dropdown in the EDITOR to set the content type irritating because I'm forever having to scroll to select the type. A solution might be for it to "drop-up" when drop-down hits the bottom of the view port. Or possibly put the type selection mechanism at the TOP of the editor, rather than at the bottom.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Josiah]

Ciao Jeremy

I have to say that #101 was one of the most enlightening hangouts I have watched.

Two stand-out points for me were ...

1 - The importance & brilliance of CSS. Riz's work really shows that CSS is a major developmental path for TW. I was very impressed with both his elegant design sense and how, in some ways, his inventiveness with CSS actually enhances user function significantly. I hope when any wrinkles are ironed out Riz would be willing to give one or two of his themes for inclusion in the standard release .... I'm thinking particularly of:

(a) -- A "universal" theme that is proven to work well on all screen sizes, including smart phones, in all browsers ...

(b) --  Possibly change the default theme in TW release to one of his very elegant, modern designs?

2 -- SAVING problems consequent on browser developments, especially FF. This is something I've commented on before. I DO think its problematic for newbies coming to TW to then have to figure out how to save the thing. It can get messy. Your comments about having a possible Amazon mediated cloud saving system were interesting, as was the re-conceptualisation of Tiddly Desktop. I think MY point is very much in the area of "universal" user experience ... where the less a newbie has to do handling variations the better. Also from a development point of view: the less you have to cater for variations the better. 

At the back of my mind is whether there could be a consistent "universal" way to handle this--such that, whichever browser you are in, TW saving always works the same??

Best wishes
Josiah

[Josiah]

Ciao Jeremy

Just a footnote on the TIDDLER MANAGEMENT gizmo...

Excellent for bulk work. Could it allow direct editing of all field content?

Odd as it may sound, as I look at the Tagger (i.e. a list of Tiddlers that expand to full content on click) THAT itself could BE the content page for a TW. I can think of TWs where something like that IS the visibleTW.

Design wise maybe the tagger & edit options on the right could go at the bottom so the tiddler content is full width?

Best wishes
Josiah

On Thursday, 24 November 2016 09:59:12 UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Josiah, Mat

Excellent for bulk work. Could it allow direct editing of all field content? 

Yes, it could; in the hangout we looked at Jed’s variant which has click-to-edit for all fields.

Odd as it may sound, as I look at the Tagger (i.e. a list of Tiddlers that expand to full content on click) THAT itself could BE the content page for a TW. I can think of TWs where something like that IS the visibleTW.

Yes, it’s not far away from a story river showing all tiddlers, with all but one being folded.

Design wise maybe the tagger & edit options on the right could go at the bottom so the tiddler content is full width?

I think it’s advantageous to not have to scroll down in order to reach the editing controls.

1 - The importance & brilliance of CSS. Riz's work really shows that CSS is a major developmental path for TW. I was very impressed with both his elegant design sense and how, in some ways, his inventiveness with CSS actually enhances user function significantly. I hope when any wrinkles are ironed out Riz would be willing to give one or two of his themes for inclusion in the standard release .... I'm thinking particularly of:

I think there’s another important point: Riz is showing how easy it is to adapt existing CSS themes to work with TiddlyWiki. There’s a wealth of great designs out there, and it’s good to be reminded that TiddlyWiki can make use of any design you see on the web.

(a) -- A "universal" theme that is proven to work well on all screen sizes, including smart phones, in all browsers …

I’d caution for careful language here. The existing default theme works the same in all browsers. The only issue we have is small screen sizes. A replacement theme would be nice to have, but fixing things to work at all screen sizes doesn’t (necessarily) need a new theme, it just needs to fix the handful of problems that we still have at small screen sizes.

(b) --  Possibly change the default theme in TW release to one of his very elegant, modern designs?

Yes, but there’s a pretty high bar for replacing the default theme in terms of backwards compatibility.

2 -- SAVING problems consequent on browser developments, especially FF.

Back in 2004, we had workable saving mechanisms for all the major desktop browsers. Then, Chrome launched with much higher levels of protection, and no ability to perform seamless saving from a file: URI in the browser. All that’s happened since then is that the other browsers have caught up with Chrome. Firefox has lagged behind, sticking with an architecture that gives extensions an unadvisedly high level of privilege. Now it’s finally catching up.

There’s no avoiding the fact that the ability to work in the browser as a standalone HTML file is going away.

This is something I've commented on before. I DO think its problematic for newbies coming to TW to then have to figure out how to save the thing. It can get messy. Your comments about having a possible Amazon mediated cloud saving system were interesting,

There’s nothing new here. It’s always been the case that the difficulties with saving only occur when running as a standalone HTML file. Once you run TiddlyWiki on a server, all those user experience problems disappear, and TiddlyWiki becomes as easy to use as any web application.

as was the re-conceptualisation of Tiddly Desktop. I think MY point is very much in the area of "universal" user experience ... where the less a newbie has to do handling variations the better.

I’m still missing your point, I think!

To me, it’s a really simple trade-off. The ability to work offline with TiddlyWiki requires expertise and understanding because of the complexities of the environment. I think you’re hoping that things will somehow magically get easier, but I’m afraid they won’t.

Also from a development point of view: the less you have to cater for variations the better.  

At the back of my mind is whether there could be a consistent "universal" way to handle this--such that, whichever browser you are in, TW saving always works the same??

This is the part I may not be getting. We’ve got a very well-explored problem that can be stated as “There is no way to give users of standalone TiddlyWiki a universal, seamless experience when saving changes”. You’re stating how good it would be if that assertion were not true, but there’s no evidence to support that hope.

Best wishes

Jeremy

[Riz]

Thank you Josiah for the kind words.

I would consider it an honor to have any of my work used by any TW5 user. I shall iron out and update and improve as much as I can afford with time.

However here are my two cents.
1) I intended these as a proof of concept how adaptable tiddlywiki is, how immensely flexible it is. You want it to look like onenote? evernote? powerpoint? deal.
Nevertheless the poit remains - these are in someway - stolen. I adapted them sources that were free, true -but not intended for TW by its original author. If we need to be distinguished, we need to do it with themes made by this community for Tiddlywiki. I think Hiru is working on some of those already. I for one am definitely looing forward to that.

2) All our aesthetic senses are attuned to a different frequency. What is beautiful to me won't be beautiful to someone else. With that in mind, urging to user to download a few extra kilobytes, which he cannot remove even if he wishes to, is unfair to the end user. If it was upto me, I  would go on to suggest removal of even snowhite from the core and leave just vanilla. Leave it to the user to define how his TW looks.  We can have a section hosted somewhere listing all major themes available for TW5, as it was for the TWC. A community submitted themes section would be a wonderful addition.

That being said Josiah's point of a adapting the TW to a more universal outlook is very relevant. An average user will choose to set aside a few deamnds if the alternative app has a better looking UI. The very least, a mobile and tablet adaptaion effort before the proposed completion could be considered.  If such an effort is off the foot, I would be eager to contribute whatever I can with my limited knowledge.

Last, the point I was planning to make in the hangout before I was unfornately cut-off by my trustworthy ISP, is that can we have a rule that says if a user finds an answer to the question he asked in the group and receives an answer fot that, he should edit his question and add the most suitable answer to it? This will greatly reduce the effort to wade to the dozen to and fros before finding the relevant point.

Sincerely
An end user