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Thanks for your thoughts.
I agree the various os platforms and sometimes the browser gives rise to complexities.
However I am not prepared to accept there is not an answer to this yet. Some complexity could be reduced through browser plugins and easy install scripts built it. But I believe there are as yet undiscovered possibilities hence this thread. This is not wishful thinking as I have clues but no final answer. If you look at what Microsoft can do with o365 and hand off to installed apps the technology exists and Google's progressive web apps is another.
I am confident more clues are in the heads of community members and the value of creative solutions to overcome the status quo is a fact.
Tony
All I want for Christmas is a simple way for naive and casual users to save their tiddlywiki (again and again)
The main problem is that there are different operating systems and browsers, so you can't create a "generic" saver plugin: each system will need different code to automatically save the wiki, and not all of them can be implemented (because of restrictions to access the filesystem).
1 -- Universal USER experience2 -- BACKEND probable OS variations
I think the Timmimi plugin (or similar) should be upgraded to work in every browser, as this is the easiest solution to use: just open the wiki and it saves the changes automagically. Of course, the problem is that it only works on the desktop, for example, you may not be able to install browser add-ons on Android.
Another option is to write the wiki to a location that is accessible on all systems: this is browser local storage, but it is not perfect either.
The third option is to save it to an online location (GitHub, GitLab) because it works with all browsers and operating systems, but this requires the Internet, and you may not even want to save your notes online.
I agree with what you say in general such that cloud is likely to be a common delivery.
However, I am still looking to simplify the ability for a user to make a wiki there own, a single file that they save and can edit.
I believe we are yet to uncover a hack or trick or minimal viable method, that will not be the answer to everything, but reduces this first step.
not multiuser, not cross device just easy and reliable.
Regards
Tony
... I am still looking to simplify the ability for a user to make a wiki there own, a single file that they save and can edit.
Full agreement.
A little speculation
For mobile if tiddloid could be installed from the wiki or play store and passed the url to the published wiki It would be localised and savable.
Desktop a downloadable installer for all OS or local storage save and restore to file (If nessasary) changes only mechanism.
Store changes in a bookmarklet or browser add-on.
Regards
Tony
Folks,
This post is seeking input from the community to overcome what I perceive to be the last big issue in saving. It may seem only suited to experienced users but perhaps you know something we don't, so please be brave and contribute.
Tony
Edit: I didn't realize how out of date TiddlyDesktop was. I guess it's back to the default download saver.
I don't know if it has file system access, but if so, we could merge TiddlyDesktop and Tiddloid / Quinoid applications.
None of these solutions will copy from one place on your hard drive to another place on the same hard drive.That's why we made Polly -- which automatically copies files saved in the download folder back to their original home.
Mark S,None of these solutions will copy from one place on your hard drive to another place on the same hard drive.That's why we made Polly -- which automatically copies files saved in the download folder back to their original home.But as I know the problem is, saving to the file system is not easy enough, it is relatively complicated for beginners. Where to store files on your hard disk is less important to me than being able to automatically save the wiki from your browser to your hard disk without using the file selection dialog.
I don't really know if it would be useful to make TiddlyWiki as easy as possible. If it would be so easy to handle that a five year old would understand, I'm afraid this community wouldn't be as great as it is now. I think the difficulties that we are trying to solve in this and similar topics provide a natural filter: only people who overcome these obstacles will use Tiddly because they really need Tiddly.
TiddlyWiki is not for those who want to create a point-and-click notebook, but for those who want to manage, search, and reuse their notes, knowledge, and data at a higher level.
One avenue I have toyed with is saving tiddlywiki files with the .tw extension and installing a local binary, that on open it loads it into a "TiddlyDesktop like app" with no additional chrome or wiki selection, just that wiki. Of course this solution will need a multi-os install binary. The advantage with this is you are not loosing the knowledge it is a tiddlywiki file by keeping it as a tw file so it does not just revert to the default browser. The wiki then becomes a "document" that the Operating system associates with the local binary.
Hi Tony,
Let me share my experience as a long time TW user.
I started with TWclassic on a usb stick and Firefox portable.
This gave me a lot of freedom, it was easy to move the files around between Linux and Windows systems without needing admin rights.
Read, write actions to the file system was easy and I made some TWc’s that relied on this heavily.
More restrictive browsers made me think how to overcome the the problem of restricted access to the file system as some of my TWc got broken.
Secondly whenever I promoted TWc as a tool to make work lighter and easier I stumbled over the saving issue’s.
I tried most savers but was not satisfied, in most cases they did not run out of the box. TiddlyDesktop came close to what I needed.
However, I use only
TWc and I did not want to have the TW5 code overhead in
TiddlyDesktop.
So I decided to switch to NW.js and wrote a saver
for TWc, access to the file system is very easy.
I can move the TWC files between Linux and Windows again and all functionality is restored, the same functionality as when I started years ago. In one instance of NW.js you can open as many TWc’s as you need, they run in independent windows. I must say that NW.js runs stable and it is fast.
Still there is file structure dependency, you cannot put your file in any location and run it from there. Files in folders downstream from the NW.js application work out of the box.
For me the way to go is to make use of the relation between file extension and default application.
A file with an extension like .tw will be opened by the default application that in my use case will be NW.js.
For me TWc has become a framework now that I use in NW.js. This delivers me flexible applications for note taking, project management, data analysis and report creation.
Browsers I hardly use anymore for TWc.
Have a nice day, Okido
This points it one direction I have being thinking about. A simplified node install perhaps. Do you control which wiki is hosted with scripts?
can you see a version of your solution being easy to setup for new users?
Thanks for your perspective.
Tony
Thanks for finding another method, this is out of the box as they say. I wonder if the setup can be automated.
I am sure you can see this is minimalist as far as its changes to the users computer but not minimalist as far as the complexity to a new user.
Great response though
Tony
Your suggested approach looks similar to other installs and uses a path many will be familiar with so it has merit. Now lets think what saver we include.
By the way I would like to see the zip contain the online wiki with content including user changes and the saver so they continue working. Or something similar.
Regards
Tony
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Tony,I've read most of this thread and find it quite interesting. Yes, we really do lack a simple way to save TiddlyWiki5 years after the FireFox Apocalypse. But there are many more options available that have not been put to use yet, or fully fleshed out. Why? I think it is funding. I personally could write all the solutions you could ever need but I do not have the funding to support myself while I do it. I know there are a couple of others here that might be similarly skilled but might not have the funds. I don't know what other people's schedules are like, but mine is fairly ad-hoc and I could probably make room for it in my work week.Now, what solutions are there? There are quite a few.TiddlyServer does support saving single-file wikis as well as data folders. Not sure why that wasn't mentioned earlier. And you could easily fit TiddlyServer into Electron if you really wanted to so it would be its own app, but that's not necessary.A Chrome/Firefox/Edge plugin that connects to a program installed on the user's computer and allows wikis to be saved. It would definitely have to have some safety controls built-in, such as only allowing local files to save and only allowing them to save back to their own file, but it is a very viable option. It's probably the closest way to match the abilities of mobile apps.Mobile works so well because apps can include a browser window directly in the app and communicate with that window through various pathways. So mobile is actually much easier to solve, and the technology is already in common use. It's possible to run TiddlyServer on Android, but not iOS (that I could find).Cloud connectors have been made by myself and others, but they have not been maintained, mostly because of lack of funds or interest, I suppose. They are, however, a very good option for single-file wikis and could be set up for data folders as well, though this is much more complicated. But for highly mobile users who store their stuff online (a lot of business people do), this is a pretty good option.There are different ways we could use cloud connectors. We could store them in the wiki, or host them on github.io and allow you to access your Dropbox or other online storage accounts. We could also hook up a wiki to GitHub to track revisions directly from GitHub. I don't know how this works but I'm sure it would be easily possible. The options are almost as limitless as the cloud storage platforms available to use.I recently came up with a system where the core and other large plugins can be loaded from the web, which requires a dependable internet connection, but in these scenarios works perfectly fine. And a bonus is that the plugins are cached after the first use so a subsequent page load can be a lot faster.I would say as a community we have barely implemented half of the available options. We've probably implemented the easy half. The other half is easy for people that are experienced with web frameworks and web development but it just takes time to build solutions.I know there are a few people here that know as much and more about software development than I do, and there are people here that have poured even more their own free time into TiddlyWiki than I have and I am very grateful to those people. So I hate even mentioning money. But that really is what holds me back from implementing some of these more advanced solutions. A year ago I didn't have much time, but I do have more time now, as I'm no longer living in China. So I'm not begging for funds or asking anyone to donate to my cause. Rather, I do believe that is the main reason more advanced solutions have not been implemented. With TiddlyServer, I did a lot of the R&D for a work project, and a lot of the grunt work I did during a week of school because I needed a better way to organize my notes. Recently I did a major rewrite in my spare time, but it's not easy for me to do that.I know there are others here who are very qualified to get paid for their work, and I'm not wanting to turn this community into a marketing campaign at all. I value the free sharing of ideas and often contribute myself. I also know that there are plenty of people here who use it for work and sometimes I wonder (as a freelancer does) if some of them might be willing (as many business people are) to pay for some more advanced solutions or at least help support their development.Just my thoughts. I welcome other perspectives on these things.Arlen
On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:02 PM TonyM <anthon...@gmail.com> wrote:
All,--This is proving to be a great repository of ideas, savings mechanisms and exploring the possibilities.One method I have being wondering about is how TiddlyServer handles single file wikis. Clearly it makes use of node for the folder based wikis and the wikis appear at http:/ipaddress/virtual/folder but this requires the somewhat cumbersome settings.json file.I wonder if an executable install of a subset of TiddlyServer/or Node, to save tiddlywikis at a standard location eg Documents/TiddlyWiki and a link to eg: http:/ipaddress:8081/ where Documents/TiddlyWiki is the root folder and supporting files like node installed elsewhere, such that it serves single File Wikis (at least). With a custom association perhaps we could Double click a tw file and it will open at http:/ipaddress:8081/twname.tw or http:/ipaddress:8081/foldername/twname.twIn this case it is one install script per Operating system and this is minimised using node and a fixed tiddlywiki folder. This would be mostly browser independent.The ability to be online in a wiki and and some how use the download or default save, to save a wiki to the above documents/tiddlywiki would make access to and saving future wikis and editions simple.Just further ideasTony
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Your description of the node executable listening on a port is exactly what the BobSaver does. So that part already exists. At the moment the security is that it just accepts connections on localhost, I don't think that saving files locally makes sense for a remote connection.
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On mobile at least you can pin it for yourself, see top right in thread. an admin needs to do it for all.
Tony
The key value of the use of a .tw file is simply to differentiate it from other html files, which will only ever open in the default browser unless you use open with which is a clumsy requirements. Tiddlywiki could open in a default browser without the saver available and work be done before it is discovered it will not save.
I think that is a good idea. Perhaps we can find an existing one that available. I am keen to see if we can identify a simple work flow from in browser discovery to making it your own and being able to save and reopen in a trusted location. I love the multiple wiki bob, TD and TS but there is no harm of providing a single wiki at a time solution. Once someone uses a for purpose tiddlywiki a large percentage will start to use it as a platform, look at its possibilities and the the multi wiki solutions.
I am just keen to make the initial use and private data very simple.
As Mario says a big part is presenting information to the user that guides them.
I think the more generic the solution the better and a side effect may be a more useful tool. I wonder if such a saver/server could be delivered as a progressive web app then tiddlywiki leverage that, in effect allowing install of the saver on desktops and mobiles without having to turn tw into PWA but giving it the local saving features of one.
REGARDS
TONY
Browser | Eviction Policy |
---|---|
Chrome | LRU once Chrome runs out of space |
Firefox | LRU if the whole disk gets full |
Safari | No eviction |
Edge | No eviction |
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It seems to me we are getting close to a first use "ease of use" then making tiddlywiki your own, basically save back to a tiddlywiki on your own drive.
I hope we can finalise this.
I see some wandering into the broader savings issues such as cross device, consolidated servers which is ok but in some ways it is the next step. Using the Bob file saver plugin with bob.exe for example is already introducing server services However the key initial reason for bob.exe in my view is the possibility of a simple adoption process.
From my original topic, I am really keen to refine the first engagement steps because I believe this can and must be simplified to not just support new users but support designers publishing work to general audiences (starting with read only html publishing).
It is my view while we should keep in mind more sophisticated implementations like server, cross device, multi access and multi user etc. . the next critical step in my view is controlled editing. The first being serial editing especially starting with single file wikis but later extending this to authorised editing.
Serial editing
Single file wikis typically save the whole wiki into a single file so two similtaniouse edits users or tabs, will overwrite one set of changes with the other.
To enable serial editing to stop this potential loss we need to introduce a login/out mechanisium in single file wikis or check-in or checkout. This is to handle the case where more than one user has update/save rights.
I have researched this deeply. And will not detail it here but the trick is to reload a wiki with a checkout request in uri or temp storage and save the wiki with the checkout details only if sucessful, perhaps with another reload to confirm the checkout. This may be prohibitive on large wikis so a wrapper wiki to control edit of another wiki may be needed.
This type of mechanisium will also support the use of multi device via cloud shares, overwrite protection on tiddlyserver, node, tiddlydesktop and more. Bob already has some protection.
Check in and out in single files would open the smart document possibilities by permitting edit control and multi user (serial) to take place in documents that are sent around physically or functionaly to multiple users. A concept I like is the idea of documents with a document management system built in.
Your thoughts please
Is serial edits the next step as I believe?
Are there other ways to achieve this?
yours sincerely
Tony
As in my last post I feel we need to approach this a little more gradually. I thing serial editing could help you.
In relation to your current problems
- I cannot access my wiki on the phone from PC if I am connected to guest wifi
This is the design of guest networks. Device isolation. Either connect but not as guest or consider direct Wi-Fi
- There is currently no way to see different versions of the tiddler or its history from TW itself
There are versioning solutions available. Search around noteself is a good example but there are others. It you design the save actions you can do it yourself.
- Hard to setup
I think you have chosen a more complex approach
- Bob stops saving when I migrate from one network to another (IP address change) which means I loose my work quite often
I suggest move the wikis not the server or have a separate server setup that accesses the same folders
- sharing with friends is not easy
Sharing is really dependant on a multitude of factors including if it includes the need for input. There are a number of ways to address this but I do think single file wikis enabled for serial editing or smart documents is a good start. Such wikis can originate from server implementations.
Thanks for sharing you methods and views.
Tony
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Thanks for sharing your use of tiddlyserver which I also use a lot. All my tiddlywiki file locations are in my ts index. I have a wiki I open for generating wikis using the the big green button to save into a folder that I then browse with ts.
This keeps maintaining an index to wikis very easy. I also use it along side timimi and sometimes bob and tiddlydesktop.
It would be nice to preconfigure tiddlyserver to a standard setup and zip it into a executable zip file to ease its deployment. Is there a minimal configuration we can use? It would also be nice if we could add paths ports and addresses to the setup file via a tiddlywiki, reducing the errors. Generating the settings file rather than a copy of a text file.
Love your work
Tony
And again all thanks for the continuing input, carefully considered feedback is very valuable and your efforts are recognised.It seems to me we are getting close to a first use "ease of use" then making tiddlywiki your own, basically save back to a tiddlywiki on your own drive.
Thanks for your feedback and reference which I will review in further detail.
First however I want to clarify the check in and out facility I propose is effectively a file lock mechanisium to ensure a single editor at a time on a single file wiki.
Such a mechanisium can be used on a server delivered document or on one that is passed around and edited on a simple fileshare. Such check in and out is even useful beyond its technical values its all so about ownership, work flow and more. The act of emailing a document is creating or forking a new document but if all you are seeking is a document review. Then there are ways to merge changes back to the source, but you need to always ensure one editors changes do not overwrite another's.
I will start a new thread on multi access and multi user saving, please use that for the discussion of those ideas.
Thanks for your contribution
Tony
Folks,This post is seeking input from the community to overcome what I perceive to be the last big issue in saving. It may seem only suited to experienced users but perhaps you know something we don't, so please be brave and contribute.I may have an opportunity in coming months to work with a team of videographers in their off season. They do "things for good" and my thought was to build a nice application (on tiddlywiki) for people to explore how they or their business can participate in reaching the Sustainable Development Goals (SDG's). This will promote the SDG's, their work, my work and the power of TiddlyWiki, but there seems to me, to still be an elephant in the room - saving.How do we enable saving tiddlywikis for naive and casual users?To be sure, I am across most saving mechanisms, and some are very good and quite easy to set up a very sophisticated solution, I use Timimi, TiddlyServer, TiddlyDesktop and Bob.exeImagine someone visits my SDG app online
- They could use it and apply changes but not save it
- With local storage and save some changes in the browser but they may be lost later
- They Can download it easily enough, even with their in browser or local storage content
- But if they wish to open it again, make changes and save they then need to consider this https://tiddlywiki.com/#GettingStarted - scary for many.
Basically I think tiddlywiki is brilliant and we have lots of wonderful options for saving, once someone gets involved with the ecosystem, I believe any nodeJS solution is hard to secure on the internet and like NoteSelf we have to manage the server, but it seems we are so close to a better single file solution (My Opinion).I know some saving mechanisms come close to helping naive and casual users however their remains a need to take unfamiliar steps, that can be quite fragile, especially to those not overly computer literate. Saving under downloads folders, running batches and installing local apps are all impediments to naive and casual users in my view, as this becomes Operating system dependant, demands more trust, will not work in many locked down cases and more.I am starting this thread to try and inspire some serious creativity to overcome this barrier. Here are some ideas floating in my head but I am keen to hear from you.
- Any idea is a good idea
- A diversity of ideas in needed
- We may need to "think outside the box"
- Can an existing solution be better engineered to meet these goals?
Some of my own musings
- One approach may be to never download the whole wiki, but store the changes in a separate file that is automatically loaded over the in browser one, and saved only by saving changes back to the nominated file.
- Building all the necessary content to install Timimi or another saver from the single wiki (No other document or external info required) Not yet chrome and IE
- A Form of bob.exe/TiddlyDesktop that can be loaded with a custom tiddlywiki that shows only that wiki unless some settings are changed in the control panel. Ie a single local installable.
- A Way of packaging a TiddlyWiki with Node.exe and hosting on a port that will not clash with other server hosts, perhaps an packaged extension of TiddlySaver.
- I was inspired to open this up to the community after playing with bookmarklets and Jeremy's solution because javascript can be loaded into bookmarks I wonder if it could be used to save changes to local tiddlywiki files and reimport on click.
- I also looked at solutions such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMacros which suggests there may be other ways to achieve the desired results.
- IPFS, BeakerBrowser, CouchDB or saving to a MYSQL or even a wordpress database?
All I want for Christmas is a simple way for naive and casual users to save their tiddlywiki (again and again)Yours SincerelyTony
Go to the .env
file if you wanna control who can has read/write access to the TiddlyWiki. Maybe change the SERVEROPTS
-line to something along the lines of:
SERVEROPTS="readers=(anon) writers=joe username=joe password=bloggs"
But like with different username and password probably. See https://tiddlywiki.com/static/WebServer.html for details and more options.
Speaking of saving i just found this possibly forgotten gem from the amazing tidgraph person
_______ _________ _______ |_ _\ \ / / ____\ \/ / ____| | | \ \ /\ / /| _| \ /| _| | | \ V V / | |___ / \| |___ |_| \_/\_/ |_____/_/\_\_____| Single File TiddlyWiki executable Version: 0.5.34------------------------------------ [ Sat. 14:43:10 ] - Creating shadow: /tmp/e78b42e942b6f16c8020e6fb2151a2a6_ twexe.twx/_exe/_twexe -z "/path/tiddlywiki-twe xe/twexe" [ Sat. 14:43:10 ] - Zip header found at: 1185360 [ Sat. 14:43:10 ] - Copying '/path/tiddlywiki-twexe/twexe' to '/tm p/e78b42e942b6f16c8020e6fb2151a2a6_twexe.twx/_exe/_twex e'ERROR: Unable to create '/tmp/e78b42e942b6f16c8020e6fb2151a2a6_twexe.twx/_ex e/_twexe': Exception: Unable to copy '/path/tiddlywiki-twexe /twexe' to '/tmp/e78b42e942b6f16c8020e6fb2151a2a6_twexe.twx/_exe/_tw exe' : EAccessViolation: Access violationERROR: Unable to start shadow: Unable to copy '/path/tiddlywiki-twe xe/twexe' to '/tmp/e78b42e942b6f16c8020e6fb2151a2a6_twexe.twx/_exe/_ twexe' : EAccessViolation: Access violation [ Sat. 14:43:10 ] - Stopping server at 'http://127.0.0.1:8080' [ Sat. 14:43:10 ] - Restarting '/path/tiddlywiki-twexe/twexe' ' -s