[Concept] Bundle filter operator

[Mat]

[These thoughts have been hinted previously, not least during @Jed and my discussions on TWederation. The idea with a filter operator is new though, AFAIK]

Would it be possible with a a filter operator that ouputs a link but really also builds a bundle (where the link is the title to the bundle)?

I use the term "bundle" because it is closely related to what @Jed has already implemented but also because if the idea here were implemented it would probably replace the current manifestation of bundles; anyway, the idea is a titlelink that serves as a collective reference in a more physical sense. If we compare a title link to a tag (i.e a pure tag, not a tiddler title) then you can do things with tiddler(-titles) but not really with tags. The idea I'm after is to merge the two so that you have a kind of collective lable that you can manipulate and it translates into manipulating the associated tiddlers.To batch manage tiddlers.

For example (and this is the original use case from the discussions with @Jed), the resulting titlelink can be dragged between TWs like any other titlelink. This would make it super easy for anyone to create a kind of light version of a plugin (very much like Jeds bundles).

..but any kind of batch processing could be imagined.

Now, opening (clicking on) such a link could - I imagine - open either of;

1. that set of tiddlers (i.e as if you were opening a permaview)
2. one compound tiddler that shows the input tiddlers as if one document (think text-slicer edition)
3. possibly, like with plugins, merely the input title links

I guess it depends on intended use for it; as a way to serve a tiddler document (#1) or more of a traditional document (#2) or just for e.g drag'n drop transferral of tids (#3).

Example syntax:

[tag[foo]prefix[bar]] +bundle[MyBundle]]

The output is the bundle, here titled MyBundle "containing" the filtered tiddlers. If no bundle name is provided, a default name could be applied. Or maybe the syntax could be with the bundle operator outside of the filter.

Maybe they'd even make sense as an alternative to tagpills - i.e they, just like tag(pills) serve as category lables but you could also dragn drop them.

If anyone were to implement it, a thought is that it seems to have some similarities with the listed filter operator.

Crazy?


<:-)

[Mat]

Still dreaming about this.

One major reason is because it would make it easier to create applications (editions?) and serve sample content. For instance, a cook-book theme or plugin could be complimented with various dishes, but the end user should be able to easily delete or exchange ingredients. As it stands now, plugins don't allow for deleting of its component tiddlers and forcing a user to individually drag'n drop individual ingredients into his/her TW is just bad. I mean.. imagine dropping eggs on your TW!!!

<:-)

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi twMat

One major reason is because it would make it easier to create applications (editions?) and serve sample content. For instance, a cook-book theme or plugin could be complimented with various dishes, but the end user should be able to easily delete or exchange ingredients. As it stands now, plugins don't allow for deleting of its component tiddlers and forcing a user to individually drag'n drop individual ingredients into his/her TW is just bad. I mean.. imagine dropping eggs on your TW!!!

There’s nothing to stop TiddlyWiki supporting deleting tiddlers within plugins. It’s not there simply because it doesn’t make sense for our current usecases (it would lead to forking where people had incompatible “edits” of the same plugin, and would make upgrading more complex).

Functionally, it still reads to me that you are arguing for more flexible plugin-related features, and are not making a case for an entirely new mechanism.

Best wishes

Jeremy

<:-)

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[Josiah]

Ciao twMat

I don't understand the underlying mechanics of TW that well so only partly grasp what you are talking about. BUT IF an implication is to be able to build "PICK 'N MIX" TiddlyWikis with variant content and plugins (i.e. operational features) I'm keen on that idea. Mainly because it could help showcase what it can do & quickly produce variant version combos for different AUDIENCES? 

But, can't this, in theory, be done already?

Best wishes

Josiah

[Josiah]

Ciao Jeremy & twMat

A footnote on plugins from how I see them. When I install a plugin I consider this a SACRED ACT :-). By which I mean it is someone else's work I benefit from. That is always at the back of my mind. 

In what you seem to be suggesting is being able to freely mess with grannies' underwear :-). Perhaps you all do it already and I'm simply out of the loop? :-).

More seriously, there seems something important around the whole rigmarole of creating a plugin in the first place and making clear WHO it is by? Disassembling that notion of "integrity" seems slightly at odds with current established practice? 

Thoughts

Josiah 

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi all

If I understand this topic right, then I can see a good point in it: Giving other people access to a BUNCH of tiddlers and – in contrary to the “sacred” form of a plugin – the freedom to delete everything they don’t need.

What I haven’t tried yet, but would try, is to tag all corresponding tiddlers and export them as JSON file via advanced search … and from here I am not sure how to proceed. Could I just copy the resulting JSON code in a tiddler and offer a link to this so people can drag my tiddlers over to their wiki?

Could we make this process easier? Maybe adapt the Tinka Plugin Manager [1] to produce bundles instead of/additionally to plugins?

All the best,
Thomas

[1] http://tid.li/tw5/plugins.html#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Fahahn%2Ftinka

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Thomas

Could we make this process easier? Maybe adapt the Tinka Plugin Manager [1] to produce bundles instead of/additionally to plugins? 

We haven’t yet established what a “bundle” is. As far as I can tell, it is another word for what TW5 calls a plugin, since bundles appear to have all the same attributes. Perhaps what we’re talking about here is another plugin type “bundle” (joining “plugin”, “theme” and “language”), with a new user interface that supports additional operations, such as “export as bundle”, “delete item” etc. Or perhaps we’re just talking about new possibilities for JSON files containing multiple tiddlers.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

[PMario]

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 7:18:13 PM UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

We haven’t yet established what a “bundle” is. As far as I can tell, it is another word for what TW5 calls a plugin, since bundles appear to have all the same attributes.

As I see it. Bundles don't contain shadow tiddlers. Tiddlers in a bundle can be deleted, and they are gone. ... Otherwise it's just a different name for plugins.
-m

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mario

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 7:18:13 PM UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

We haven’t yet established what a “bundle” is. As far as I can tell, it is another word for what TW5 calls a plugin, since bundles appear to have all the same attributes.

As I see it. Bundles don't contain shadow tiddlers.

In that case, it doesn’t sound like bundles are plugins after all. Exposing shadow tiddlers is the central property of plugins.

Tiddlers in a bundle can be deleted, and they are gone. …

OK, that makes it sounds like we’re back to bundles being plugins with a UI for deleting tiddlers within them.

Otherwise it's just a different name for plugins.

But how does that square with the first statement that bundles don’t contain shadow tiddlers?

Best wishes

Jeremy.

-m

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[PMario]

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 11:27:47 PM UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Otherwise it's just a different name for plugins.

But how does that square with the first statement that bundles don’t contain shadow tiddlers?

This was just a conclusion: If my first 2 statements are wrong.

-m

[Mat]

Jeremy Ruston wrote:

There’s nothing to stop TiddlyWiki supporting deleting tiddlers within plugins. [...] Functionally, it still reads to me that you are arguing for more flexible plugin-related features, and are not making a case for an entirely new mechanism.

From an end user view, I'm merely after a practical solution to be able to

1. for the "creator" to easily create a single title link that represents multiple single tiddlers 
2. so that the "receiver" can drag this into his TW
3. and end up with multiple tiddlers that are as easy to manipulate as regular tiddlers

Spontaneously, such a title link feels similar to a tag pill in that it represents loose tiddlers. Tag pills are simple in all three listed steps and the UI is minimal.

Extending the plugin mechanism with some UI would probably work BUT I fear the listed steps would be much more complex (compare something as simple as tagging or even manual listing VS making a plugin). Again, it's a fella simply trying to share a food recipe, not a TW expert.

A plugin type solution would, I guess, spare us some mechanism invention but it sounds like it would need 'inventioning'/introducing more UI to the end user. And the problems tha you (@Jeremy) point out with forking and incompatible edits of the same plugin and complex updating seem to be pretty big issues.

Like tags, or some other field value, I envision something more ephemeral. For example, if you delete a tiddler bundle indicator (think tag) then this is just the indictator that is deleted. Batch deletion of bundle tiddlers is probably another matter.

<:-)

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi Mat

Spontaneously, such a title link feels similar to a tag pill in that it represents loose tiddlers. Tag pills are simple in all three listed steps and the UI is minimal.

Would an additional link "export all tiddlers" on the tag pill (at the bottom of the list) come close to your concept?

Of course this would not exactly be drag-and-drop, but export/download, drag and drop … still rather easy.

Cheers, Thomas

[Mat]

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 10:41:10 AM UTC+1, Thomas Elmiger wrote:

Hi Mat

Spontaneously, such a title link feels similar to a tag pill in that it represents loose tiddlers. Tag pills are simple in all three listed steps and the UI is minimal.

Would an additional link "export all tiddlers" on the tag pill (at the bottom of the list) come close to your concept?

Interesting idea. Per se, I guess it would work but it would be a bit cumbersome. Particularly if dragging from online TW to online TW, thus being forced to go via local computer.

However, I wonder if it would be possible to export to memory to use it as temporary storage and then paste the tiddlers into the new TW?

...or maybe it's possible to make something of the unofficial (or even unintentional?) drag-to-bookmark possibility; i.e when you have set your tiddler titles to show as links (Controlpanel > Settings) - you can then drag a tiddlers title into the browser bookmarks field... and this actually contans the tiddler. If you go to this bookmark you get a... is it a JSON version of the tiddler? ....so maybe this could be made to contain multiple tiddlers somehow.... or maybe the problem is still(?) having one link point to several tiddlers...

<:-)

[Josiah]

I have a semi-insane take on all this.

When I hear "bundles" I also hear the echo: "custom building" ... and "TW as a bundles-of-functions wrapper"

It seems to me that there is an implicit "broader aim" in this discussion that is not yet quite articulated.

From the far side

Josiah